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Old 09-04-2015, 07:59 PM   #61
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I have read your comment and I'm not really sure how to cooperate with you when you are entirely focusing on economical budget and immigration? Surely, surely to god there is more to life? Honestly, us Brits think we know it all. "Hey, I know you are getting bombed back home but could you go back because quite frankly, we've no money to give you & us Brits deserve it more because our parents gave birth to us in this country"

wITH A LITTLE TONGUE IN CHEEK IRONY BOMBS THAT WE VIA OUR US Uk ISRAEL ARAB CARTEL ARMS DEALERS SOLD YOU snigger snigger titter titter.
Hi, sorry I'm not sure if that's aimed at me but I am completely aware and against any country funding/manufacturing/selling arms.
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Old 09-04-2015, 08:09 PM   #62
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My point as well coooweee

Past experience tells me that the Robot Radical type simply breaks down with a "does not compute" error

Is empath another Bunny Laroche or will we be suprised by something better?
Not good enough is it John, can't get an answer to that one where ever I ask.

Capitalism that we have now could not exist without open doors, it beggars belief that your average modern day lefty refuses to see that.
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:00 PM   #63
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Perhaps I do not 'belong' on this thread. I am listening to all of the points above with an open mind... Do I think not voting at all is 100% effective? No, unless the entire nation decides the same. Are we ready to live without pre-conceived ideas of what life should be like? Sadly not.

I perhaps would like to live in an idealistic world (only because if everyone 'woke up' I know it could be achieved), so when I hear about borders, immigration, finance within healthcare etc etc... to me I know (like you both) that it's an 'illusion', but as one of you pointed out - it cannot be that all countries have equality due to the system itself. I want to leave a planet for generations that has been taken care of, but at this rate it's looking impossible.

Politics makes me feel boxed in, claustrophobic. I voted SNP and I voted Yes to independence for Scotland. Nothing changed, because of the system. Okay, I've rambled on enough, I just wanted to get the general consensuses for the feeling about this year's election and in my circle, I don't have UKIP, Conservative or Lib Dem voters. So it's interesting to discuss here..
You do belong on this thread, I am pleasantly surprised

I would say that politics means recognising limits and working with them: in fact this is the essence of diplomacy, or environmental limits WILL lead to conflict, land, water, raw materials especially, and this feels counter intuitive to the creative visionary imagination

Believe you me, I have one of those

However, to truly effect vibrational shift, higher dimensions must be "earthed" into this one

This is why politics in its higher form is indeed "the art of the possible"
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:25 PM   #64
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NHS privatisation up from 4% in 2010 to 6% in 2015, no the NHS isn't being messed up by privatisation

Your looking in the wrong place

I think that statistic was put out earlier this week by none other that Nick Clegg.

The truth is that whole swathes of NHS services are up for grabs. Virgin Care now run contracts worth hundreds of millions of pounds a year, here is an example, the take over of Childrens' Care in Devon;

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...dren-nhs-devon

Virgin Care - up until a couple of weeks ago I had no idea this franchise even existed, let alone be responsible for previously public services up and down the country. That Mike Oldfield and his Tubular Bells has got a lot to answer for, if only it had not been picked up by 'The Exorcist' we might have one less oligarch to worry about.

I know this was started under 'New' Labour, and I hated it then. But it is on-going, a small amount of research shows the revolving door between this government and private health firms, with health company advisors working for the government, and MP's working to advise the privateers.

And UKIP pin-up Carswell is a prime-mover, he has a long 'laissez-faire' history, involved in free-market think tanks for years, with people all to ready to hand over all the NHS to private hands if they can.

The thing is, when British Rail ceased, we saw the new brands. With the NHS, you walk in and you still have those 'NHS' letters to re-assure you, yet you are being treated by the minions of Beardie Branson who is trousering money for the provision health services, I find that repulsive.

Nothing to do with immigration, you must look elsewhere. It is the on-going concentration of wealth, passing from the 'have-not to the 'already stinking rich' for mainly idealogical reasons, that UKIP movers and shakers have been leading lights in trumpeting in their previous lives. They are wedded to 'trickle down' economics, the 'Chicago School' of Milton Friedman, tax cuts for the richest, welfare cuts for the poor, low wages for everyone apart from themselves.

To believe that UKIP are in any way 'insurgent' is to deny the common sense that you are born with. You may wish to exit the EU, that is in itself an honourable argument that is worth having. But the price worth paying for electing a UKIP MP is one that I could never contemplate.
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:33 PM   #65
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We live in Boston & Skegness constituency where UKIP fancies their chances of winning.
That said we've not had a single leaflet for any party through the door and there's not a single poster for any party to be seen yet.
We do live out in the sticks though in a remote part of the constituency but I've not seen any posters for candidates up in Skegness either.
It's odd.
Where we lived before, in South Leicestershire in the run up to elections there were posters up all over the place and we had lots of party leaflets through the door.
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:43 PM   #66
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I think that statistic was put out earlier this week by none other that Nick Clegg.

The truth is that whole swathes of NHS services are up for grabs. Virgin Care now run contracts worth hundreds of millions of pounds a year, here is an example, the take over of Childrens' Care in Devon;

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...dren-nhs-devon

Virgin Care - up until a couple of weeks ago I had no idea this franchise even existed, let alone be responsible for previously public services up and down the country. That Mike Oldfield and his Tubular Bells has got a lot to answer for, if only it had not been picked up by 'The Exorcist' we might have one less oligarch to worry about.

I know this was started under 'New' Labour, and I hated it then. But it is on-going, a small amount of research shows the revolving door between this government and private health firms, with health company advisors working for the government, and MP's working to advise the privateers.

And UKIP pin-up Carswell is a prime-mover, he has a long 'laissez-faire' history, involved in free-market think tanks for years, with people all to ready to hand over all the NHS to private hands if they can.

The thing is, when British Rail ceased, we saw the new brands. With the NHS, you walk in and you still have those 'NHS' letters to re-assure you, yet you are being treated by the minions of Beardie Branson who is trousering money for the provision health services, I find that repulsive.

Nothing to do with immigration, you must look elsewhere. It is the on-going concentration of wealth, passing from the 'have-not to the 'already stinking rich' for mainly idealogical reasons, that UKIP movers and shakers have been leading lights in trumpeting in their previous lives. They are wedded to 'trickle down' economics, the 'Chicago School' of Milton Friedman, tax cuts for the richest, welfare cuts for the poor, low wages for everyone apart from themselves.

To believe that UKIP are in any way 'insurgent' is to deny the common sense that you are born with. You may wish to exit the EU, that is in itself an honourable argument that is worth having. But the price worth paying for electing a UKIP MP is one that I could never contemplate.
I agree with a fair chunk of that but it was Carswell that urged Cameron to use his "powers of veto" RE:TTIP and the NHS, when he was a Tory.
RE: your last paragraph, I happen to believe the EU is the most important issue right now, I want out and I want the vote, if the vote is to stay in then fine ( I think it would be). People like Blair letting slip how Labour think of the electorate, the contempt they hold us in only makes me further suspicious of it all and I'm not sure I can ever forgive them for that.
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Old 09-04-2015, 09:56 PM   #67
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I agree with a fair chunk of that but it was Carswell that urged Cameron to use his "powers of veto" RE:TTIP and the NHS, when he was a Tory.
RE: your last paragraph, I happen to believe the EU is the most important issue right now, I want out and I want the vote, if the vote is to stay in then fine ( I think it would be). People like Blair letting slip how Labour think of the electorate, the contempt they hold us in only makes me further suspicious of it all and I'm not sure I can ever forgive them for that.
If Carswell spoke against TTIP then he is to be applauded.

Blair now speaks for people other than the Labour party, and may well have done so for quite some time.
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:02 PM   #68
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I don't believe the Labour Party hold the electorate in contempt, I believe they are just realistic about the average intelligence of the typical voter and their inability to recognise a long-term good thing when they see it.
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:04 PM   #69
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I thought as well the comment from Cameron the other week that he will serve only this coming term, should he be elected as PM. This is telling, translated in means 'I cannot wait to get my nose in the trough and snuffle up the millions of pounds that are waiting for me once I get through this PM bollocks'.

It is the 'revolving door' between government and private interests laid bare, I would say.

If I was PM, I would have to be carried out, a la Mrs T.!
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Old 09-04-2015, 10:49 PM   #70
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I think that statistic was put out earlier this week by none other that Nick Clegg.

The truth is that whole swathes of NHS services are up for grabs. Virgin Care now run contracts worth hundreds of millions of pounds a year, here is an example, the take over of Childrens' Care in Devon;

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...dren-nhs-devon

Virgin Care - up until a couple of weeks ago I had no idea this franchise even existed, let alone be responsible for previously public services up and down the country. That Mike Oldfield and his Tubular Bells has got a lot to answer for, if only it had not been picked up by 'The Exorcist' we might have one less oligarch to worry about.

I know this was started under 'New' Labour, and I hated it then. But it is on-going, a small amount of research shows the revolving door between this government and private health firms, with health company advisors working for the government, and MP's working to advise the privateers.

And UKIP pin-up Carswell is a prime-mover, he has a long 'laissez-faire' history, involved in free-market think tanks for years, with people all to ready to hand over all the NHS to private hands if they can.

The thing is, when British Rail ceased, we saw the new brands. With the NHS, you walk in and you still have those 'NHS' letters to re-assure you, yet you are being treated by the minions of Beardie Branson who is trousering money for the provision health services, I find that repulsive.

Nothing to do with immigration, you must look elsewhere. It is the on-going concentration of wealth, passing from the 'have-not to the 'already stinking rich' for mainly idealogical reasons, that UKIP movers and shakers have been leading lights in trumpeting in their previous lives. They are wedded to 'trickle down' economics, the 'Chicago School' of Milton Friedman, tax cuts for the richest, welfare cuts for the poor, low wages for everyone apart from themselves.

To believe that UKIP are in any way 'insurgent' is to deny the common sense that you are born with. You may wish to exit the EU, that is in itself an honourable argument that is worth having. But the price worth paying for electing a UKIP MP is one that I could never contemplate.
I'm sorry, you are confusing one arm of Health and Social Care with another

The NHS has always been free at the point of delivery

Its the Hospitals and the Doctors

Care has never been part of the NHS, Care is local authorities and has always had to be funded via government money

We don't have an NHS infrastructure to deliver care right into peoples homes. you cant sell off the NHS when its never been part of the NHS

Health and Social care is making revolutionary strides and introducing truly progressive new laws, but it has to do so with private capital because the state money doesn't exist to directly build these services. The government is still paying for them, but the industry can innovate in a way in which years drawn out negotiations with intractable union would not allow the NHS to do. Health and Social Care employs 100'000's of people through private companies. The bad ones fail their CQC inspections and are weeded out, the good ones barely break even after delivering the quality level of service people expect, so the idea of massive profiteering is a fantasy, the competition for tenders is fierce, budgets are lean

Childrens centres were a New Labour project and initial set up was £10 billion. They were protected from cuts initially, this was removed in 2014. but the truth is that although they do some good, they are nothing like as effective as they were supposed to be: something about security centres armed with social workers recording every twitch you or your child make seems to put parents off. They would be better scrapped and the money put into play schools and nurseries IMO

Further for your information: the UKIP policy goal AFTER Brexit is Money Reform. There is simple NO other party to vote for that is true for. UKIP is not responsible for the massive transfer of wealth that started under new labour, and for those who have benefited from quantative easing has accelerated ten fold since, but before ANYTHING can be done the nation must be brought back under an elected parliaments control. UKIP does not have the backing of the City of London corporation, it has some wealthy donors, most self made entrepeneurs. It is hardly bullingdon and eton, and it is an inability to differentiate between people who are rich that ties the left down to not seeing it serves the true 1% owners, not the people
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:07 PM   #71
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I'm sorry, you are confusing one arm of Health and Social Care with another

The NHS has always been free at the point of delivery

Its the Hospitals and the Doctors

Care has never been part of the NHS, Care is local authorities and has always had to be funded via government money

We don't have an NHS infrastructure to deliver care right into peoples homes. you cant sell off the NHS when its never been part of the NHS

Health and Social care is making revolutionary strides and introducing truly progressive new laws, but it has to do so with private capital because the state money doesn't exist to directly build these services. The government is still paying for them, but the industry can innovate in a way in which years drawn out negotiations with intractable union would not allow the NHS to do. Health and Social Care employs 100'000's of people through private companies. The bad ones fail their CQC inspections and are weeded out, the good ones barely break even after delivering the quality level of service people expect, so the idea of massive profiteering is a fantasy, the competition for tenders is fierce, budgets are lean

Childrens centres were a New Labour project and initial set up was £10 billion. They were protected from cuts initially, this was removed in 2014. but the truth is that although they do some good, they are nothing like as effective as they were supposed to be: something about security centres armed with social workers recording every twitch you or your child make seems to put parents off. They would be better scrapped and the money put into play schools and nurseries IMO

Further for your information: the UKIP policy goal AFTER Brexit is Money Reform. There is simple NO other party to vote for that is true for. UKIP is not responsible for the massive transfer of wealth that started under new labour, and for those who have benefited from quantative easing has accelerated ten fold since, but before ANYTHING can be done the nation must be brought back under an elected parliaments control. UKIP does not have the backing of the City of London corporation, it has some wealthy donors, most self made entrepeneurs. It is hardly bullingdon and eton, and it is an inability to differentiate between people who are rich that ties the left down to not seeing it serves the true 1% owners, not the people
I can reply more fully later, but by definition care provided by local authorities was public, not private.

The example of Southern Cross shows what can happen when private finance is involved in any aspect of health care, fringe or otherwise, as does Hinchingbrooke/Circle experience.

The people that make up UKIP are the 'Establishment' personified. Should they be within a sniff of power, they will be shown the film of JFK being shot, from an angle that no-one has ever seen before - credit Bill Hicks for that one I think!
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:21 PM   #72
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I can reply more fully later, but by definition care provided by local authorities was public, not private.

The example of Southern Cross shows what can happen when private finance is involved in any aspect of health care, fringe or otherwise, as does Hinchingbrooke/Circle experience.

The people that make up UKIP are the 'Establishment' personified. Should they be within a sniff of power, they will be shown the film of JFK being shot, from an angle that no-one has ever seen before - credit Bill Hicks for that one I think!
Woah there, I agree things go wrong, they go wrong in the NHS too, and no, its not always because its been starved of finances, bad cultures produce bad care public or private, ass covering to save pensions leading to massive neglect.

I am not at all disagreeing with you that private fails, of course it can, but what is relevant is that everything is overseen by the government regulator the CQC

However, it gets a little complicated in that the CQC has become an extremely powerful organisation and that means it is at risk of corruption

I will admit, I am not sure UKIP's plan to abolish CQC and replace with LA inspectorates is entirely the right one, I think the LA inspectorates should happen, but there should remain a national regulator to inspect THEM, that retains the power to enter any home at any time to inspect

^See, I am in favour of state spending

But I'm not in favour of state jobsworths and borrowing money to employ people performing functions that are of little provable benefit, those are jobs both taxes and borrowing should stop paying for, they are waste.

I also recognise that when it comes to BIG INTERNATIONAL CORPORATIONS, if they see a job is for the government they double the price, and that also has to stop, lots of money is sucked straight out of the country by government spending, the NHS is a huge part of it (drugs! equipment! buildings! vehicles!) but the rot goes much deeper, IT systems, OMG

^If the activities of those jobsworths roles really is profitable to society, then there will be someone enterprising looking for a niche contract for their company, and I see no reason people shouldn't organise themselves in businesses to perform functions for society in exactly the same way the civil service does.

I consider that to be because I generally hold to the principle of freedom
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