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Old 27-01-2012, 02:21 PM   #21
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May be should start a poll...How about.. is it right or wrong to deny some one in need, water.
What do you think?
Right or wrong?
But your question is loaded.
You mention "deny" which would mean is it right to prevent someone from having water, whereas I believe it would be more correct to ask should people be free to obtain their own water for themselves, which they are.
They can tootle off to a local stream and get some water.
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Old 27-01-2012, 02:31 PM   #22
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But your question is loaded.
You mention "deny" which would mean is it right to prevent someone from having water, whereas I believe it would be more correct to ask should people be free to obtain their own water for themselves, which they are.
They can tootle off to a local stream and get some water.
Is it right/wrong to deny accses to the stream?
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Old 27-01-2012, 03:40 PM   #23
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Is it right/wrong to deny accses to the stream?
If it's on private land that would be a decision for the landowner.
I would say that anybody who reqiuires water could dig a well on their own land.
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:13 PM   #24
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Is it right for people to seek to freeload off others?
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:19 PM   #25
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Is it right for people to seek to freeload off others?
Of course not..This is why the bankers and their governments must be brought to justice.
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:20 PM   #26
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Of course not..This is why the bankers and their governments must be brought to justice.
Well not really, if you are daft enough to borrow money off them then that's more your own stupidity...........
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:22 PM   #27
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Well not really, if you are daft enough to borrow money off them then that's more your own stupidity...........
Yep
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:22 PM   #28
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Is it right/wrong to deny accses to the stream?
Do you think that our ancestors did not know just as much, if not more, than we do about right and wrong? They built social structures to improve their (and our) lives. The same structures that you want to tear down because of your opinion of your own importance and 'rights'.

The 'natural law' that you and others talk reverently of is and probably always has been an illusion. The 'natural' order of things is for the bigger, stronger bully to reign. So if you had a source of fresh water for yourself and your family and someone or group bigger, stronger and more nasty than you wanted it, they would just take it. They would kill you for it if they had to.

The government might be a big, strong bully in some respects, but it does at least create some form of order and stability, thus generally protecting us from the otherwise everyday fight for survival.
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:24 PM   #29
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Of course not..This is why the bankers and their governments must be brought to justice.
In that case it should also be right for me to be able to take any freeloader that I like to court for indirectly sponging off me while I do my bit for others, shouldn't it?
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:24 PM   #30
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If it's on private land that would be a decision for the landowner.
I would say that anybody who reqiuires water could dig a well on their own land.
So its right in your opinion for a land owner to deprive some one of life?
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:27 PM   #31
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In that case it should also be right for me to be able to take any freeloader that I like to court for indirectly sponging off me while I do my bit for others, shouldn't it?
It dependes on what loss he incurred.
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:28 PM   #32
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So its right in your opinion for a land owner to deprive some one of life?
But the landowner is not depriving anybody of life. The individual concerned is free to obtain their water elsewhere, but it would appear that they are too lazy to do so and instead expect to infinge on the rights of other people in order to carry on with their freeloading.
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:34 PM   #33
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It dependes on what loss he incurred.
Ah, so it's right to take bankers to court for being evil or something, even though we put them there, but it's not necessarily right to take a freeloader to court because I first have to prove a direct loss?

I seeeeeeeeee.



So, let's take national debt as a classic example. I haven't suffered a direct loss there; it's definitely indirect (incurred by government, to whom I owe tax). But when a freeloader adds to that loss by taking the benefit of things without paying what he/she should be paying through taxation for example, thereby increasing the national debt, I have to mutate it into a direct loss before I can do something?

I think you're making this up as you go along. Your rules are worryingly inconsistent.
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:54 PM   #34
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Do you think that our ancestors did not know just as much, if not more, than we do about right and wrong? They built social structures to improve their (and our) lives. The same structures that you want to tear down because of your opinion of your own importance and 'rights'.

The 'natural law' that you and others talk reverently of is and probably always has been an illusion. The 'natural' order of things is for the bigger, stronger bully to reign. So if you had a source of fresh water for yourself and your family and someone or group bigger, stronger and more nasty than you wanted it, they would just take it. They would kill you for it if they had to.

The government might be a big, strong bully in some respects, but it does at least create some form of order and stability, thus generally protecting us from the otherwise everyday fight for survival.
I agree to some extent..But whats happening is the government is abusing or ignoring these acheivments made by our ancestors.
It is no longer creating order and stability as is clear as events in the world unfold..Hence the recent interest in the freedom movement.
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Old 27-01-2012, 04:58 PM   #35
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Ah, so it's right to take bankers to court for being evil or something, even though we put them there, but it's not necessarily right to take a freeloader to court because I first have to prove a direct loss?

I seeeeeeeeee.



So, let's take national debt as a classic example. I haven't suffered a direct loss there; it's definitely indirect (incurred by government, to whom I owe tax). But when a freeloader adds to that loss by taking the benefit of things without paying what he/she should be paying through taxation for example, thereby increasing the national debt, I have to mutate it into a direct loss before I can do something?

I think you're making this up as you go along. Your rules are worryingly inconsistent.
I certainly did not apponit any bankers I have always detested the parasitical scum and go well out my way to have as few dealings with the parasiticle scum as possible.

How do you define free loader?
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Old 27-01-2012, 05:02 PM   #36
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But the landowner is not depriving anybody of life. The individual concerned is free to obtain their water elsewhere, but it would appear that they are too lazy to do so and instead expect to infinge on the rights of other people in order to carry on with their freeloading.
In the scenario you imagined..The victims of the accidet are hardly given a choice..

who is the freeloader the victims in need or the land owner?
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Old 27-01-2012, 05:05 PM   #37
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I agree to some extent..But whats happening is the government is abusing or ignoring these acheivments made by our ancestors.
It is no longer creating order and stability as is clear as events in the world unfold..Hence the recent interest in the freedom movement.
If there is an awakening, and there may be, then it is very important not to get bogged down in 'methods' which do not work. Channel your energy elsewhere, would be my advice.

I looked into the FOTL claims and soon found them to be ****. As has been remarked elsewhere on this sub-forum, a lot of FOTLites seem only interested in, and/or capable of, causing trouble for other, more genuine searchers.
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Old 27-01-2012, 05:06 PM   #38
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I certainly did not apponit any bankers I have always detested the parasitical scum and go well out my way to have as few dealings with the parasiticle scum as possible.
?
OK, so you never borrowed any money ever in your life and you've never used the financial system? OK

Anyway, that's irrelevant and not addressing the inconsistency in your rulebook. Care to try again?

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How do you define free loader?
Oh, I don't know, let's for present purposes say people who don't pay their council tax. Hey, let's whip up a shitstorm while we're at it and say people who are on benefits and aren't making a decent effort to work and pay their way. Those people (for the sake of argument).

Come on, just address the bloody issue instead of trying to find a diversion. It's so boring when people do that. And please let's try to avoid rhetoric about supporting criminals and stuff. Go on, make my day, get bang on the point. I'll check in later to see.
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Old 27-01-2012, 05:10 PM   #39
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OK, so you never borrowed any money ever in your life and you've never used the financial system? OK

Anyway, that's irrelevant and not addressing the inconsistency in your rulebook. Care to try again?



Oh, I don't know, let's for present purposes say people who don't pay their council tax. Hey, let's whip up a shitstorm while we're at it and say people who are on benefits and aren't making a decent effort to work and pay their way. Those people (for the sake of argument).

Come on, just address the bloody issue instead of trying to find a diversion. It's so boring when people do that. And please let's try to avoid rhetoric about supporting criminals and stuff. Go on, make my day, get bang on the point. I'll check in later to see.
Pot kettle and all that aside..If you feel some people exploit the system you subscribe to why susbscribe?
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Old 27-01-2012, 05:10 PM   #40
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In the scenario you imagined..The victims of the accidet are hardly given a choice..
Well, the victims do have a choice.
If these natural rights exist as you claim they do, you and your son would be violating the ninety year old's natural right to water. You could of course give the ninety year old all of the water.

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who is the freeloader the victims in need or the land owner?
You appear to be jumping threads. The stream in question was not part of the accident scenario. The stream just happened to be there and there was no victim. So, I would say if the stream is on private land and the individual is too bone idle to provide himself with water but would rather it be supplied by somebody else, the individual is the freeloader.

Last edited by rumpelstilzchen; 27-01-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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