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Old 02-04-2011, 04:30 PM   #221
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TVP and TZM blame everything other than the real culprit of the current world situation: humanity. Fact of the matter is any system can seem perfect on paper and can be corrupted once put into use. This is all just another excuse to keep the reigns of power in the hands of a select few. Until humanity faces the facts about our own nature we will never know true freedom.
So what I'm thinking - is that from what I have heard of the vision of TVP (I watched an interview 2 weeks ago from 1974 about TVP) - is that this need for power in humans is something which is learned from our environment. The environment which the TVP envisions take out the perceived need which cause this kind of behavior.
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Old 02-04-2011, 04:42 PM   #222
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From the Christian point of view, I don't believe it contradicts Christian beliefs to say there is no GOOD & EVIL (AND is important there)

There is only Good - and a lack of Good.

When I thought of this... I thought of the Yin and Yang ... and thought that perhaps the dark areas of it as simply a lack of the light areas.

From the "Christian" beliefs of the devil. What power does the devil have? What actual power?

Nothing... Only the power to deceive... the power to suggest something that is not there.

What is our separation other than the illusion of separation we perceive?

Going along these lines of thought... I don't have definite answers or truths. Just ideas which I find interesting.

That's why I think so many enemies and threats are perceived... Which are just things we are looking at which create a shadow.
"The only thing to fear, is fear itself"
With a lot of the arguments I've heard about Fresco and TVP - I'm just reading things which are illusions created in peoples minds,
based on opinions with no Real reasoning.. no facts... just the equivalent of looking into the clouds in the sky and saying,
"Look! there's a face! can you see the eyes! and the mouth!" but then going from there and actually beliving it's a face and trying
to reason that it is a face, because "Look you see the eyes! and the mouth!"...
no it's "a visible mass of water droplets or frozen ice crystals suspended in the Earth's atmosphere"
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:15 PM   #223
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FlyerMay, you are always calling people lyers, when then are actually coming up with completely valid points. I wont bother replying to YOUR pathetic replies.
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I love it... "lies, all lies... that's how I'll justify his comment... uhh yeah! Oh, and he's a Christian... yeah, that's it..."

Funny. I'm not a Christian and I haven't lied.

This is way more pathetic than even the first extensive non-sense reply I got from people mentally deluded by the Zeitgeist propaganda machine.
And I also love it when those who try to deceive the good people of this forum with their lies simply run out of arguments.

Opinions change... truth always prevails!!!

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Old 02-04-2011, 05:40 PM   #224
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This is where I have some different ideas. You know the thing about light and darkness, heat and coldness?
That darkness doesn't exist other than what we call a lack of light...
Coldness in itself does not exist other than what we call a lack of heat...
Darkness and Coldness cannot be measured - but light and heat can.
Yes, that is correct as far as I know.

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I see this void, as we're calling it, in the same way. Like, what is a hole in the ground? - but a lack of ground... a space where there is no ground.
Agreed, so there is no ground in the hole, what does one then fill it with? Ground or trash?

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So this void also, I don't believe it's something we're born with, I don’t believe it is part of ‘human nature’... I believe that this void is something learned and experienced from our environment and connections.
Sure, I would also say that it's one possible path.

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What are the facts about our own nature?
Free-will, a capacity for happiness, and liberty.

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What do you see as the reason of what makes a human want power?
Self deification; idolization of self.

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So I believe that this void is there because of our environment. So it is not our nature, but nurture. That the need for Power is out of behavior learned from a corrupt environment we have been nurtured by through infancy, childhood, adolescence and adulthood. Change the environment, change the behavior.
I half-way agree. I think environment does play a factor and we have a tendency to adapt. However, I'd say there is an innate capacity for humans to be "good" or "evil" and I don't think we are purely victims of our environment as we do have a will of our own.

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I would say that Until humanity faces the facts about the environments we emotionally, physically, spiritually and cognitively develop in – we will never know true freedom.
Yes, I agree completely and I'd add that this is completely within our power to change once we collectively will it. We need to be creators rather than destroyers.

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“Prison without Bars” – We need to see those bars. We need to see the corrupt systems in place in this world… we need people to wake up… and yes, I believe that the void we’re talking about is key too. When that is filled with other things, we cannot fully receive the One Love that belongs there.
A prison of our own making. This world we have created is a reflection of ourselves.
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Old 03-04-2011, 02:59 AM   #225
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TVP and TZM blame everything other than the real culprit of the current world situation: humanity. Fact of the matter is any system can seem perfect on paper and can be corrupted once put into use. This is all just another excuse to keep the reigns of power in the hands of a select few. Until humanity faces the facts about our own nature we will never know true freedom.
For a long time I also thought humanity was to blame for eveything that was going wrong in the world; I also thought humans were naturally greedy and selfish and that this behaviour was a constant that could not be changed -just supressed by artificial means. Basically, I couldn't believe people like David Icke who promoted the idea that humanity had been highjacked by an evil force (I sill don't believe it happened exactly how he describes; but he is not that far away from the truth).

However, after listening really carefuly to what Fresco had to say, and to the sociologists that like him took the time to research the real root of human misbehaviour, I had no choice but to admit that I was wrong: humanity is not meant to misbehave in that way, we have all been programmed by TPTB through the environment to do so.

And this was the moment when I realised that the genius of Fresco's ideas laid in having realised that there is no human nature -we are all just the product of our environment- and that adapting that environment to avoid certain misbehaviour is the only option that mankind has to truly live in relative freedom and peace.

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Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Absolutely true! But what would happen when an individuals that has not been raised to acquire power, is faced with such a dilema? will he simply abuse his power to acquire more, disregarding his programming; or will he stand down, according to his programming, and allow those with better ideals to take over?

I think the answer is pretty clear: whatever you were programmed to do by your own society, you will do; regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

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Old 03-04-2011, 03:15 AM   #226
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For a long time I also thought humanity was to blame for eveything that was going wrong in the world; I also thought humans were naturally greedy and selfish and that this behaviour was a constant that could not be changed -just supressed by artificial means. Basically, I couldn't believe people like David Icke who promoted the idea that humanity had been highjacked by an evil force (I sill don't believe it happened exactly how he describes; but he is not that far away from the truth).

However, after listening really carefuly to what Fresco had to say, and to the sociologists that like him took the time to research the real root of human misbehaviour, I had no choice but to admit that I was wrong: humanity is not meant to misbehave in that way, we have all been programmed by TPTB through the environment to do so.

And this was the moment when I realised that the genius of Fresco's ideas layed in having realised that there is no human nature -we are all just the product of our environment- and that adapting that environment to avoid certain misbehaviour is the only option that mankind has to truly live in relative freedom and peace.
So we are just robots programmed by our environment??

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Absolutely true! But what would happen when an individuals that has not been raised to acquire power, is faced with such a dilema? will he simply abuse his power to acquire more, disregard his programming; or will he stand down, according to his programming, and allow those with better ideals to take over?

I think the answer is pretty clear: whatever you were programmed to do by your own society, you will do; regardless of whether it is right or wrong.
So we don't have an individual will then?
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:19 AM   #227
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So what I'm thinking - is that from what I have heard of the vision of TVP (I watched an interview 2 weeks ago from 1974 about TVP) - is that this need for power in humans is something which is learned from our environment. The environment which the TVP envisions take out the perceived need which cause this kind of behavior.
We are the ones who created this 'environment.' Therefore, whatever affect this 'environment' has on us is because of an affect that we first had on the 'environment.'
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:27 AM   #228
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So we are just robots programmed by our environment??
Not robots; humans programmed to respond and adapt to the environment; it is what guarantees our survival, the ability to adapt.

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So we don't have an individual will then?
No, we don't; our will is just the product of this programming; and it goes accordingly to what we subconciously judge is best depending on the environment we were raised in.

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Old 03-04-2011, 03:32 AM   #229
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I can put you some examples that confirm these two statements...
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Old 03-04-2011, 03:50 AM   #230
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I can put you some examples that confirm these two statements...
sure go for it.
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:32 PM   #231
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And I also love it when those who try to deceive the good people of this forum with their lies simply run out of arguments.

Opinions change... truth always prevails!!!
I'm not trying to deceive. You are carefully picking your words and playing with peoples minds, to the contrary. I am only giving people tangible facts and evidence. People need to hear the truth. You are a serpent, on the other hand.

Peace!

-Christopher

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Old 03-04-2011, 11:19 PM   #232
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sure go for it.
As an example to the first statement -the one about being programmed to respond to the environment- we could use the case of Germany before and after WWII. You see, there was no difference between these two generations of Germans -only the environment changed-; yet on the previous to WWII 98% were convinced Nazis (pro-fascists), while from the post-WWII generation around the same percentage were anti-Nazis (anti-fascists). How else could this happen if we were not programmed to adapt to the environment?

And in a similar way it also serves as an example to the question of free will. Did pre-WWII Germans choose Nazism by free will; and post-WWII Germans rejected it; or did the environment predispose them to make those choices?

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Old 04-04-2011, 12:44 AM   #233
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Hahaaa! You can blame the time on the DI forum for that- the fear of having children thread the most lol! I learned more about psychology in that single thread than 3 years at uni lol
careful, language like that may get us shut down! either that or dozens of 'members' =/will emerge to try and make you look foolish for believing in something.

i believe it should have been spelt learnt here though, sorry. not so clever after all heheh =P
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Old 04-04-2011, 06:21 AM   #234
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careful, language like that may get us shut down! either that or dozens of 'members' =/will emerge to try and make you look foolish for believing in something.

i believe it should have been spelt learnt here though, sorry. not so clever after all heheh =P
lol, blame that on reading far too much American stuff.
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:08 PM   #235
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As an example to the first statement -the one about being programmed to respond to the environment- we could use the case of Germany before and after WWII. You see, there was no difference between these two generations of Germans -only the environment changed-; yet on the previous to WWII 98% were convinced Nazis (pro-fascists), while from the post-WWII generation around the same percentage were anti-Nazis (anti-fascists). How else could this happen if we were not programmed to adapt to the environment?

And in a similar way it also serves as an example to the question of free will. Did pre-WWII Germans choose Nazism by free will; and post-WWII Germans rejected it; or did the environment predispose them to make those choices?
While I agree that people are easily led this example does not prove that people do not have individual wills. The fact that it was 98% of the population rather than 100% indicates that not everyone followed the "programming."
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Old 04-04-2011, 10:26 PM   #236
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While I agree that people are easily led this example does not prove that people do not have individual wills. The fact that it was 98% of the population rather than 100% indicates that not everyone followed the "programming."
Your right; that wasn't the best example, as Germany is not a closed environment free from outside influences. But take two different tribes from the Amazon; one cannibal, and the other one not. How come the people from the cannibal tribe eat other human beings, and the people from the other tribe don't; when both are genetically equal and living under the same conditions?... Could we say that their members do it, or don't, out of individual free will?

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Old 04-04-2011, 10:55 PM   #237
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Your right; that wasn't a good example, as Germany is not a closed environment free from outside influences. But take two different tribes from the Amazon; one cannibal, and the other one not. How come the people from the cannibal tribe eat other human beings, and the people from the other tribe don't; when both are genetically equal?... Could we say they do, or don't, out of free will (individual free will)?
Good point, but I think you're only half-way correct. At some point someone in one of those respective tribes either started cannibalism or ended cannibalism hence the difference between the two tribes. I would call that person a chief, a leader, prophet, visionary, elite or whatever you want and I'd say that person creates the environment for the whole tribe. What kind of environment is created is dependent upon the person doing the creating I think.
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Old 05-04-2011, 02:44 AM   #238
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Good point, but I think you're only half-way correct. At some point someone in one of those respective tribes either started cannibalism or ended cannibalism hence the difference between the two tribes. I would call that person a chief, a leader, prophet, visionary, elite or whatever you want and I'd say that person creates the environment for the whole tribe. What kind of environment is created is dependent upon the person doing the creating I think.
Oh yes, there I agree with you. But as you said, it's this visionary that is changing the environment; and therefore manipulating the others' free will to match his will.

Think of this visionary as Jacque Fresco; and soon, without force or cohercion, all human beings will go back to behave as such.

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Old 05-04-2011, 12:48 PM   #239
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Oh yes, there I agree with you. But as you said, it's this visionary that is changing the environment; and therefore manipulating the others' free will to match his will.

Think of this visionary as Jacque Fresco; and soon, without force or cohercion, all human beings will go back to behave as such.
The problem with 'visionaries' is that they tend to get a big head and become corrupt when they get that taste of power. Like I said earlier, power corrupts and absolute power corruptes absolutely. As long as men allow other men to lead them we will have the same problems I think.
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:58 PM   #240
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Not this shite again. GET THIS IN YOUR FUCKING HEADS:

Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO!!!
Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO!!!
Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO!!!
Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO!!!
Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO, Zeitgeist is not THE NWO!!!

(Yes, Zeitgeist or the Venus Project is 'A' NWO, but it is nothing we need to fear. Much better than the current 'Old World Order'. The NWO you need to fear is already happening. It's actually not a NWO, but a completion/extension of the 'Old World Order'.)

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