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Old 27-11-2011, 06:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
Plus all their influence via Goldman Sachs.
Yep, exactly.
You can call rightfully the FRG Ltd the Fraud Republic of Goldmann&Sachs

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Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
If the Fed can print as much money as they like, then in theory USA could bail out EU and oversee economic control of EU in much the same way as we see EU now controlling Greece?
Yes, theoretically they can do that, but I think firstly they need all the freshly printed air dollars to keep to fraud running in the US corporation, and secondly, the Euro is tied with the dollar to 75% iirc... in fact the ECB has become the European FED.
So I think, the bailout "news" are in fact just propaganda to stir further prejudices and anger on both sides of the Atlantic.
Its financial warfare between the US and European bankster factions.

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Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
European states need to go bankrupt and end all this madness. Thats the way they used to play this game, why now all the concern about not going bankrupt.
Yes, would be better for all European peoples to return to a national sovereign state issued currency.
Well, a default ends the almost 100 years of conspiring and building towards a centralized "United States of Europe". I simply ruins their efforts and vast resources they spent on it, including 2 world wars to control the heart of Europe.

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Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
I once worked for the great great great (how ever many times) grandson of William Pitt - Lord Ivor Pitt, his business went bust, I didn't get paid. People at that level simply argue that without being allowed to try and start a business and being able to fold it up and walk away if it doesn't work out there would be no enterprise. Everyone would be to scared to start a company. Bankruptcy is just a tool of business, nothing more. Why now must we never fail. I know its national and has slightly more concern but its really no different.

Admit its failed, close the books, walk away and start again. As long as we can grow food, we won't starve.
I found coincidentally an interesting quote:

Quote:
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
Thomas Jefferson
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Old 06-12-2011, 06:38 PM   #22
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Why the euro liars must stop deceiving us - and themselves

The leaders of France and Germany — those big bosses of Europe — announced yesterday that they are committed to redraw the continental treaty, what Chancellor Angela Merkel has called ‘a new phase in European integration’, as they fight to keep the euro as a stable currency.

It remains almost beyond belief that Mrs Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy should solemnly announce their assent to what is, in effect, a pact to agree that the Earth is flat.

But other European partners, including David Cameron, have expressed support, confronting us with the spectacle of almost the entire political leadership of the continent marching decisively towards a cliff edge.

Nobody dares to tell the truth to their electorates: that the governments of Europe are embracing policies which are both wildly anti-democratic and cannot work.

Link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...#ixzz1fmjkeKbb
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Old 06-12-2011, 08:33 PM   #23
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From the Telegraph

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Cameron's choice – between British voters and the global elite

Every national leader is confronted with this choice at a time of global crisis: does he answer to the political demands of his own country, or defer to what seems to be a larger international imperative?

David Cameron seems to have made his decision. Judging by the way he openly repudiated Iain Duncan Smith's statement at the weekend that a referendum would be required for Britain's agreement to any treaty change in the EU – even if it did not affect our membership directly – the Prime Minister is prepared to defy not just what the BBC calls "the Right wing of his party", but the majority of public opinion. So why is Mr Cameron so determined not to yield, on what must appear to most people the technical and (on past experience) unreliable point that such a treaty would not specifically involve this country handing more power to Brussels? Surely he cannot see this as simply a power struggle with the people John Major used to call "the bastards" – the diehard Eurosceptics of the Tory Right – since the desire for the electorate to have a say in Britain's relationship with the EU has now become mainstream.


No, I suspect that Mr Cameron's dilemma is a much more traditional one that is not unconnected to his personal inclinations and his background. He has discovered the age-old joys of being part of a world power elite: he is now a member of the international diplomatic club whose priorities and etiquette must be respected if one is not to be regarded as a rogue figure. He sees (and I am sure he has had it put to him) that Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy are truly desperate to resolve the existential threat to the euro and to the EU itself. He knows that if he tries to hold them to ransom on Britain's behalf, for what Lord Lamont has described as "some political factor to do with (Britain's) own domestic politics" at this critical historical moment, he will be forever branded an outlaw in European power circles. To be fair, he may well believe that it would not be in Britain's longer-term national interests for this to happen.

But for now, we know which way he has chosen to go: the British electorate will not have its voice heard. Mr Cameron has chosen to be helpful to the club of international leaders rather than accede to the wishes of his own population: just one more example of the way that the EU has eroded democratic accountability and undermined the relationship between elected leaders and their own people.

Link - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ja...merons-choice/
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:51 PM   #24
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I wonder what rules there are about emergency governments, can they re organise themselves, suspend elections etc. Such a clause could be used to install a Technocratic government or more accurately, unelected elite rulers.

For instance, during a Europe wide double dip recession causing extrordinairy financial conditions or civil unrest, could an interim emergency government re organise itself as a technocracy and postpone elections until they or the IMF see fit? Then the banksters may let the money flow again and people might believe the problems been fixed and a technocracy is not such a bad thing.
Quote:
Radical eurozone shakeup could see Brussels get austerity powers

Bailed-out countries could also be stripped of their voting rights in the European Union, under radical proposals that have been circulating at the highest level in Brussels before this week's crucial EU summit on the sovereign debt crisis.

Link - http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...rt-of-comments
lol
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Old 08-12-2011, 07:33 PM   #25
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DEUS EX MACHINA

by Egon von Greyerz – December 2011

With most of the world’s major economies as well as the financial system bankrupt, there is only one solution that can save the world economy. Like in the Greek tragedies, Deus ex Machina is now the only way that the world can avoid a total economic collapse. This would involve God being lowered down onto the world stage and miraculously saving the plot.

http://goldswitzerland.com/wp-conten...ein-051211.jpg

For those few who believe in this, may God bless them. But since this is a very unlikely solution most people will instead rely on governments and central banks to save us. But how can anyone possibly believe that totally incompetent and clueless politicians and central bankers could solve anything. They created the problem in the first place and are therefore totally unsuitable to play the role of Deus. The main objective of governments is to stay in power and thus to buy votes. Therefore they are incapable of taking the right decisions. And the opposition, aspiring to power is even less suitable since they will lie through their teeth and promise the earth in order to be elected. (We know that there are exceptions like Ron Paul, but the voters will most probably find his medicine too strong to swallow.)

What about central bankers, can’t they save us? Unfortunately any sensible person who becomes a central banker loses all his senses and becomes a prisoner of the political system.
Solution?

So if there is no Deus ex Machina and if governments or bankers can’t rescue the world, who can and what is the solution. Let us return to the wise von Mises to look at the options available now:

Quote:
“THERE IS NO MEANS OF AVOIDING THE FINAL COLLAPSE OF A BOOM BROUGHT ABOUT BY CREDIT EXPANSION. THE ALTERNATIVE IS ONLY WHETHER THE CRISIS SHOULD COME SOONER AS A RESULT OF A VOLUNTARY ABANDONMENT OF FURTHER CREDIT EXPANSION, OR LATER AS A FINAL OR TOTAL CATASTROPHE OF THE CURRENCY SYSTEM INVOLVED”

Ludwig von Mises
Mises is absolutely correct: “There is no means of avoiding a final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion”. Whatever politicians, bankers, economists or others experts say, there is no solution to this crisis. We have reached the end of the road and are now staring into the abyss.

The credit manufacturing system that started in 1913 when the Fed was founded, began its terminal phase in 1971 when Nixon abolished gold backing of the dollar. It has been clear to us for at least 20 years that the outcome was inevitable. It was never a question of “if” but only “when” it would happen. It is now clear to us that the false prosperity that the world has experienced by printing unlimited amounts of money will very soon come to an end. Thus the “if” and “when” conditions are now satisfied so the remaining question is HOW?

To try to answer this let’s return to Mises: “The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion ….”

To stop the money printing and credit creation would be the only sensible way of ending the failed quasi-capitalist, socialist experiment which is in the process of destroying the structure of the Western world. For almost 100 years we have lived on a system based on debt. This has created a false prosperity as well as false values. The transfer of capital from private enterprise to government by massive taxation is approaching 50% in many countries (see table). The average for 18 industrialised countries is almost 40%. This means that on average 40% of the productive economy is transferred to a non-producing entity (government) which wastes most of the money in the process of redistribution. But not only that, since the state has taken over up to 50% of the economy in these countries, the desire to work, to strive, to take risk and to invent has been taken away from a major part of the population.

http://goldswitzerland.com/wp-conten...p-gs061111.jpg

For a great many people it is now totally natural to rely on the state for their needs rather than on themselves. And the state needs to borrow/print ever increasing amounts to perpetuate this economy based on an illusion. This situation is totally untenable. Since any additional money printing will only exacerbate the crisis and make the final collapse so much greater, the swiftest solution would be let the financial system implode now. We need to reset the world to a level which is sustainable. The consequences of this implosion would be a collapse of the financial system and a reset of debt to zero. Although this is unthinkable to any government or politician, it would be by far the quickest way to get the world back on its feet with no major debts, minimal government interference, and no central bank that can print money. It would be like a forest fire getting rid of all the dead wood. Out of that would rise masses of green shoots in the form of strong unchequered growth. The transition will of course be traumatic and the current generation will experience enormous hardship. But not voluntarily abandoning the money printing now will just delay the inevitable and the consequences will be dramatically greater and affect many future generations.

Anyone who has followed my articles will know my view that governments worldwide are totally incapable of stopping the money printing. This is their only means of staying in power and buying votes. But not only that, this is the only method they know. This has been their patent solution to all economic problems in the last decades. Not that this is new in history. Most empires have resorted to diluting the value of money by reducing the gold/silver content of coins or printing paper money. But as far as I know it has never before been done by so many countries simultaneously to such an extent.

Since there won’t be any voluntary abandonment of credit creation what will the likely outcome be? Again let’s use Mises words: “…… a final or total catastrophe of the currency system involved”. The problem this time is that we are not talking about one currency or one country. No, we are talking about most of the world’s major currencies. We have been used to measuring currencies and economies on a relative basis i.e. against each other. But this is a total fallacy since all major currencies have been in a race to the bottom for the last 100 years. Most currencies have lost between 97% and 99% against real money –GOLD – since 1913. And since 1999, most currencies have lost 80% or more against gold. So paper money has been a very poor measure of wealth in the last 100 years. Governments are creating credit and paper money and consequently through their fraudulent actions “stealing” from the people whilst at the same time increasing the people’s dependence on the state. And the people does not understand that the value of paper money is declining continuously. But gold reveals the deceitful destruction of paper money. This is why governments do not like gold and try to suppress the gold price.
Endless Money Printing – QE

And how will the currency system collapse? The answer to this question is very simple – through endless money printing. There will be no lasting austerity programmes in any country that can print money. Governments are incapable of sticking to austerity measures since in the end that is a guaranteed way of losing power. As power is the main purpose of all governments, they will use any method to retain it. Within the Eurozone, individual countries can of course not print money but the ECB and the IMF will take care of that. So whilst world leaders are procrastinating and bickering in G8, G20 and all other “summit” meetings, it is absolutely guaranteed that the final outcome will be one QE package after the next. Governments and central banks know that without limitless money printing there would be a deflationary collapse of the banking system and world economy.

The table below shows the financing requirements of the PIGS countries in the next few years. Just Italy and Spain will require €1 trillion in the next 4 years and of that 1/2 trillion Euros in 2012. Only printed money will take care of that.

http://goldswitzerland.com/wp-conten...11-650x478.jpg

For many years it has been absolutely crystal clear to some of us (sadly a very small minority) that many major sovereign nations are bankrupt as well as the world financial system. Banks are only surviving because they, with the blessing of governments, are allowed to value trillions of dollars of toxic and worthless assets at full value. And on top of that there are more than $1 quadrillion outstanding in derivatives. These are outside the banks’ balance sheets and there are virtually no reserves against them. The banks are netting the value down to virtually nothing and then applying a miniscule reserve against this net amount. First of all, the netting is only valid when the counterparty pays. When there is a counterparty failure, which is very likely in the coming financial collapse, gross remains gross and the $1 quadrillion remains $1 quadrillion. Secondly, a major part of the derivatives are worthless or not protecting the investors as we have seen with for example Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Lehmans and lately MF Global. MF Global had bought CDs to hedge their investment in Greek debt. But they hadn’t understood what they had bought and it turned out it offered no protection at all.
Hyperinflation

The “final or total catastrophe of the currency system” will occur as a result of the QE or unlimited money printing that will very soon start in the EU, USA, UK, Japan and many more countries. And this currency destruction will lead to hyperinflation as I have stated for many years. Throughout history, substantial government deficits leading to money creation or printing have always been the cause of hyperinflation. Because hyperinflation is always the result of a collapsing currency and not of excess demand.

To any thinking individual, it is totally incomprehensible that governments and central banks believe that an insolvent world can be saved by debt issued by bankrupt nations and then bought by the issuers themselves as there is no other buyer. This is the perfect recipe for self-destruction and “total catastrophe of the system.”
IMF, EU and other failed monstrosities

Time and time again, the world creates massive costly, bureaucratic and unaccountable structures that have idealistic and totally unrealistic objectives.

Take the IMF for example. This is what their mission statement states: “The International Monetary Fund (IMF) is an organization of 187 countries, working to foster global monetary cooperation, secure financial stability, facilitate international trade, promote high employment and sustainable economic growth, and reduce poverty around the world.”

If financial stability, high employment, sustainable economic growth and reducing poverty are the objectives of the IMF, then they have failed on every single point. So here we have an organisation that receives/borrows money from mainly bankrupt states and then lends the money to countries that cannot or will not ever repay the funds. And in order to carry out this totally futile task, the IMF takes a major cut in between to finance its costly and failed operation. The world does not need monstrous and costly structures that totally fail in their mission. Thus, the IMF should be closed.

Turning to the EU, they state on their website: “The main objectives of the Union are now to promote peace, the Union’s values and the well-being of its peoples”. There are other stated objectives such as: “sustainable development, based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment.”

The EU or the EEC as it was first called was created in the late 1950s. This was a prosperous period in the world economy based on real growth (not debt). As often is the case, politicians with illusions of grandeur create superstructures which only function in good times. The EU’s main objective of creating peace and well-being of the people is now being severely tested. If we for example asked Spanish youth (50% unemployed) about their well-being or Greek people or the Portuguese etc, we would get a tirade of abuse and complaints about the EU. Instead of “creating peace”, we are seeing major tension within the EU that could lead to serious conflicts. And as to “balanced economic growth and full employment”, this has all come to an end. The false prosperity, mainly based on debt, has also come to an end and the EU can only survive intact with the aid of endless money printing. But even that would only be a temporary reprieve. The EU is a failed experiment which is extremely costly and inefficient. The economic ruin of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, France etc would not have happened to the same extent without the EU. Like all artificial fiat currencies, the Euro was doomed to fail. Without the Euro, countries like for example Ireland, Spain or Greece would have recovered much faster.
Final or total catastrophe

So we are heading to the final stage or as Mises says a “final or total catastrophe of the currency system involved”. I don’t think that even Mises envisaged at the time that this could involve a major part of the world rather than just one country. This is why this catastrophe will be unprecedented in world history and have consequences that will affect the world economically, socially and geopolitically for a very long time.
Wealth Preservation – Gold

Since 2002 we have advised investors to put up to 50% of their assets into physical gold, stored outside the banking system. Gold has appreciated between 15% and 20% per annum since 2002 depending on the base currency. And most stock markets have declined 70-85% against gold in the last ten years. In spite of this most major investor groups (institutional, funds, asset managers or individuals) own no gold. Gold is money and reflects the total destruction of paper money. But most investors do not understand gold. Common arguments I hear is that “you can’t eat gold” or that “gold pays no return.” It seems that these investors prefer to eat paper money. And as to the argument that there is no yield on gold, who needs yield on an asset that has massively outperformed all major asset classes in the last 11 years. And if we look at 2011, gold has greatly outperformed stock markets in most major countries. Whilst stock markets are down between 1% and 24% in 2011, gold is up more than 20% against all major currencies. So in real terms (gold) all stock markets are doing very badly but still investors persist in riding these falling trends.

http://goldswitzerland.com/wp-conten...11-650x461.png

Stock markets will benefit temporarily from QE but it is still our view that they will fall another 90% against gold in the next few years.

The correction in the precious metals is now likely to be over and we should see the metals going to new highs in 2012. I had the pleasure of becoming acquainted with Alf Field at the recent Gold Symposium in Sydney where we were both speakers together with Eric Sprott, John Embry and Ben Davies amongst others. Alf is one of the few in the world, if not the only one, who knows how to apply the Elliott Wave principle successfully to gold. Alf’s next intermediate target is at least $4,500 and the ascent to this target could be rapid. That would probably mean a silver price of $150. These technical forecasts certainly confirm the fundamentals as outlined in this article.

The world is in a total mess and there is absolutely no solution to this unprecedented crisis. The hyperinflationary depression that we will experience in the next few years will totally destroy the majority of the credit based wealth that has been created in the last few decades.

In order to preserve wealth and keep capital intact, it is critical to keep a major part of investment assets in precious metals held outside the banking system. But for investors who continue to follow conventional wisdom, they will sadly find that their investment strategy was merely conventional and contained no wisdom.
http://goldswitzerland.com/index.php...gonvongreyerz/
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:32 PM   #26
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^^ Good article.

I especially agree with these points -

Quote:
But how can anyone possibly believe that totally incompetent and clueless politicians and central bankers could solve anything. They created the problem in the first place and are therefore totally unsuitable to play the role of Deus.
This point has arisen again and again, most recently for me while watching the documentary 'Inside Job: Storyville - Charles Ferguson's Academy Award-winning forensic analysis of the 2008 global financial crisis'. Where we see the very same people involved in 'creating' or at the very least, allowing the crash to happen are then employed to solve the problem. How can those that in charge and responsible for the crash ever be the best people to now solve the crisis. They should be sacked and where neccessary prosecuted.

Financial regulation should have imeadiately been re-instated to gain proper control. Allowing the same people and the same rules to continue is just mindless (and I agree with your comment on the journalism thread about signs of a dying system - this is the same with this financial crash, allowing the same people to be in charge and play by the same rules that caused the problem is evidence they do not know what to do or do not want to do the right thing. Hence more signs of a dying system.) For me, it is also evidence of high level corruption or ignorance. Either these people are totally brainless or they are corrupt which gives rise to the idea of it being a conspiracy or planned event. If these people were truly honest, the bankers would have resigned, the governments would have implemented regulation and/or emergency measures and appointed new bankers and financial controllers. The fact that this hasn't happened is evidence of corruption or inabilioty to grasp the situation - I personally don't believe that anyone could be that dense. These people have access to the best advisors in the world. Either we need to sack all the politicians like Obama, all the bankers, financial watchdogs and all the economics professors from the best universities because none of them could forsee what was happening and now it has happened they are all in agreement to stay on the same course, proving that they are so dense and inept that they do not deserve to be in charge or offering advice or we are facing high level corruption and conspiracy. As I said before, I don't believe they are all that dense. Hence I favour the corruption and conspiracy argument.

Quote:
Since any additional money printing will only exacerbate the crisis and make the final collapse so much greater, the swiftest solution would be let the financial system implode now. We need to reset the world to a level which is sustainable. The consequences of this implosion would be a collapse of the financial system and a reset of debt to zero. Although this is unthinkable to any government or politician, it would be by far the quickest way to get the world back on its feet with no major debts, minimal government interference, and no central bank that can print money. It would be like a forest fire getting rid of all the dead wood. Out of that would rise masses of green shoots in the form of strong unchequered growth.
This is the way it has always worked before - I do not see what has changed and why we need this bailout/quantitive easing monstrosity. I have waited very patiently for this crash since leaving education in 2000, for a chance to be able to afford my own home. I was absolutely disgusted when they introduced quantitive easing to try and sustain the system at totally unsustainable levels. UK house prices are still over valued by 40-50% due to ridiculous base interest rates of 0.5% - again, totally unsustainable and the effect is propping up usustainable house prices preventing the likes of me and the younger generation from getting on the ladder. Instead, I am forced to pay sky high rent, sky high interest on unsecured loans preventing me from saving for personal gain or even a pension.

Unfortunately, I see no end to the situation until they have totally destroyed the west's economy and we will be competeing with the Chinese/Asia for a wage of a few dollars day and never able to buy our own homes.
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Old 11-12-2011, 03:29 PM   #27
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More.

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Fiscal analysis: Why money no longer just talks

It’s beginning to look like unelected money will make more and more demands


In short, situation normal: the role of Western government these days is to ensure that bankers take no responsibility for anything ever again…and if there’s any argument about it, they take over the Government just to be on the safe side. Greece, for example, wanted a debt forgiveness package and a vote about not getting one. Exit democratic government, enter banker with reassuringly Hellenic name. (And yes, the promised 35-60% haircuts remain in an ongoing not there as such just yet mode.)


The transfer of wealth from the Sovereign bodies to the financial system is something I first blogged about in late 2008. More recently, I have posted here about the reality of Europe’s debt collateral being liberal democracy. That liberal democracy now has the bailiffs in – and they all used to work at Goldman Sachs. The problem for those of us who can see more of this coming is that very few other people do.....


I very much doubt we are going to see the IMF appointing Jim O’Neill of Goldman as Prime Minister. But the potential for disastrous slump to create chaos must be advantageous for, say, Rupert’s Revenge. Never imagine that he and others don’t think at that level. Think Tesco, the brothers on Sark, Lord Ashton, and the same folks who dislodged Dominique Strauss-Kahn. We have a Treasury desperately short of money, and a Government drowning in debt. Money has driven everything else in politics over the last decade or more. We are about to see where all that moral hazard might now lead.


Link - http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2011/12/...er-just-talks/

Last edited by pi3141; 11-12-2011 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 11-12-2011, 08:47 PM   #28
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From the Guardian article -

Quote:
Radical eurozone shakeup could see Brussels get austerity powers

Tuesday 6 December 2011

Bailed-out countries could also be stripped of their voting rights in the European Union, under radical proposals that have been circulating at the highest level.......

Elements, however, have already sparked a backlash among eurozone member states and the suggestion that countries could lose their voting rights seems already to have been dropped.

Link - http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...rt-of-comments

And yet, in this statement on the www.consilium.europa.eu website - pay attention to the dates


Quote:
STATEMENT BY THE EURO AREA HEADS OF STATE OR GOVERNMENT

EUROPEAN COUNCIL Brussels, 9 December 2011

....In order to ensure that the ESM is in a position to take the necessary decisions in all circumstances, voting rules in the ESM will be changed to include an emergency procedure.

Link - http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedoc.../ec/126658.pdf

(See page 6)
What emergency procedures will that be then?

The statement goes on to say -

Quote:

Some of the measures described above can be decided through secondary legislation. The euro area Heads of State or Government consider that the other measures should be contained in primary legislation.

Considering the absence of unanimity among the EU Member States, they decided to adopt them through an international agreement to be signed in March or at an earlier date.
No need for a referendum then!

Tricky bastards!
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Old 29-01-2012, 01:31 PM   #29
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And here's what they were working towards, guess they don't need a majority to push this through.

Quote:
The German Plan: Extraordinary proposal for EU to take control of the Greek budget in return for more bail-out cash

The German government has called for Greece to hand control over its finances to the European Union in what would be an unprecedented expansion of Brussels' power.
Under the plan, in order for the embattled country to receive a second bail-out - now estimated at up to €145bn (£122bn) - a eurozone 'budget commissioner' would be given the power to decide Athens' tax and spending,
The proposed power grab, revealed today by the Financial Times, would be met by strong opposition in Athens, where anti-German protests have already been seen on the streets and in the media.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1krEy57HW
If this goes through, its the beginning of the complete removal of democracy in Greece.
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