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Old 04-06-2014, 08:14 PM   #141
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But before the existence of 'gollywog dolls', the term was first coin by Bertha upton. She never meant it to have any negative meaning, and later became horrified that I gain those meaning.

It was never intended to have any slave connotations, but be a 'black gnome'.

Is it racist for there to be a black gnome, or is it more racist for there to never be a black gnome?.....
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:19 PM   #142
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Hi Folks,

A number of non-topical/bickering posts have been removed. Lets try to discuss things constructively and attack the topic and not fellow members please. Its much better that way.

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Old 04-06-2014, 08:26 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
But before the existence of 'gollywog dolls', the term was first coin by Bertha upton. She never meant it to have any negative meaning, and later became horrified that I gain those meaning.

It was never intended to have any slave connotations, but be a 'black gnome'.

Is it racist for there to be a black gnome, or is it more racist for there to never be a black gnome?.....
How does Bertha Upton figure in this? Florence K. Upton was the creator.

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the golliwogs were described as "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome". As the book below details, golliwogs were depicted as having paws for hands and feet. Ultimately though, their image was of the black-faced minstrels who toured the USA/Europe.
It was most definitely intended to have slavery connotations. It came about during a time of continual difficulty and enslavement of blacks.

Who needs a black gnome though FairyP?

It's a bit like Jimmy Savile. He's a nonce, a freak, a disgusting piece of shit. I've seen people on the forum think with regret of how they liked him. Are there any FMs who are keeping his pics on their mantelpiece, or in the attic dreaming of a day when they'll be free to parade it?
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:30 PM   #144
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How does Bertha Upton figure in this? Florence K. Upton was the creator.



It was most definitely intended to have slavery connotations. It came about during a time of continual difficulty and enslavement of blacks.

Who needs a black gnome though FairyP?

It's a bit like Jimmy Savile. He's a nonce, a freak, a disgusting piece of shit. I've seen people on the forum think with regret of how they liked him. Are there any FMs who are keeping his pics on their mantelpiece, or in the attic dreaming of a day when they'll be free to parade it?
Sorry, may have got the name wrong....

He wad never a slave. I was a childrens toy in one story, and a high-flying adventurer in a bunch of others. None of that implies slavery.... I'm not trying to justify his usage in poplar culture afterwards, just in the original books...
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:49 PM   #145
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The first golliwog book helped children understand that black people weren't necessarily bad as they had been portrayed, isn't this a positive step towards race relations? Thus the Golliwog is positive, and should be embraced thus. I think all this will blow over when a band of black rappers call themselves The Golliwogs, a bit like NWA did with the n word.

Is it racist to have dolls of black people with afro hair? Why do people pretend they not accurate as far as dolls go? When afro hair grows you can see what it is like. Why can't his appearance be celebrated in a doll?

[IMG]http://www.*****************/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Lemn-Sissay-with-golliwog-008.jpg[/IMG]

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Old 04-06-2014, 08:50 PM   #146
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What does it have to do with golliwogs? Well you seem to be suggesting that all those that turned to Ukip are racists. And I don't believe that is true. nor do I believe that uncontrolled immigration is a hyped lie. It clearly isn't.
UKIP is a racist party. Please read their manifesto, and you'll see for yourself. UKIP supporters - those of the same cloth as Farage who rant on endlessly about immigration without doing research, are falling into xenophobia willingly.

UKIP candidates, in the OP, want to play with golliwogs, and 'enjoy' them. Farage has no problem with that. If I was the leader of a party, and my candidates were throwing Jimmy Savile was a hero parties, but did nothing about it, what would you think?

Uncontrolled immigration - have they taken all the jobs? Women? What have they done, exactly? Immigrants commit crimes, and so do our own citizens. Our own government is criminal to the extreme, and what about what our banks are doing? The City of London's crimes... I would advise you to research your question...and see for yourself. If our own home-grown elites didn't keep fucking things up for others, nobody would ever come here. Nobody. I always speak to immigrants - they don't really like it here a lot of the time. The weather is awful for them. They miss their homes. I don't know how this myth came about that immigration is something that people do on the spur of the moment; it is not. If the western countries stopped screwing other countries and their people over, we would have no immigrants.

I saw a news report on rt.com about the USA and the EU imposing sanctions on Russia. The USA wants the EU to cut all ties with Russia basically. However about 500 000 jobs are tied in with Russian-German trade. What will happen if the EU goes ahead? Where will the 500 000 people go? In the same way, France was supposed to sell some warships to Russia. The USA is pressuring them to not do this. France is going ahead, anyway. The USA wants to supply gas/energy to Europe. Fucking hell, how much will that cost us? What happens to the workers linked to the present set up? And so on and so on.

As I've always said, the only immigrants I've met are working at jobs I don't care for i.e. cashiers, packers, car washers, counter assistants. They don't get benefits, they work. I met one from India and one from Pakistan - they've completed PhDs. One's going back, and one might work here. I'm happy there are people who want to come here and work. If they're working, they're paying tax. What's the problem?

If the government is giving them handouts, is the immigrant wrong, or the government? And as I said, I've never met a single immigrant who got benefits. I know a teacher who used to get child benefits or something, but they paid tax. So what's the problem?

Anyway the topic of this thread is about UKIP and its golliwog links.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:53 PM   #147
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Sorry, may have got the name wrong....

He wad never a slave. I was a childrens toy in one story, and a high-flying adventurer in a bunch of others. None of that implies slavery.... I'm not trying to justify his usage in poplar culture afterwards, just in the original books...
The original image of the golliwog was modelled on blacks. Blacks were slaves, or as good as slaves back then.

Why did we need a golliwog? Would we have survived childhood without them? I would. I haven't read a book about golliwogs/with golliwog characters for ages, and I'm not missing anything.

Have you seen my posts on the previous page? I made a super-long post about racial stereotyping in film and media. What's wrong with an ordinary looking black person? Why a golliwog, which was created as a caricature of blacks?
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:01 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
The original image of the golliwog was modelled on blacks. Blacks were slaves, or as good as slaves back then.

Why did we need a golliwog? Would we have survived childhood without them? I would. I haven't read a book about golliwogs/with golliwog characters for ages, and I'm not missing anything.

Have you seen my posts on the previous page? I made a super-long post about racial stereotyping in film and media. What's wrong with an ordinary looking black person? Why a golliwog, which was created as a caricature of blacks?
We are all slaves, some are even so engrossed in the system think they are free and get a few more trinkets to make them feel more important than others.

Once we stop bickering about race color creed income bracket, then we might get somewhere.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:02 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by zephiloyd View Post
The first golliwog book helped children understand that black people weren't necessarily bad as they had been portrayed, isn't this a positive step towards race relations? Thus the Golliwog is positive, and should be embraced thus. I think all this will blow over when a band of black rappers call themselves The Golliwogs, a bit like NWA did with the n word.

Is it racist to have dolls of black people with afro hair? Why do people pretend they not accurate as far as dolls go? When afro hair grows you can see what it is like. Why can't his appearance be celebrated in a doll?

[IMG]http://www.*****************/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Lemn-Sissay-with-golliwog-008.jpg[/IMG]
Where did you get your information about the first black golliwog book helping children to understand that blacks "were'nt necessarily bad"? Which children? Where? How did you glean that? Proof please, zephiloyd.

Er, are you not going to explore the context of this pic? The man in the pic is offended by golliwogs, believe it or not. You saw his pic online, and took it, thinking you could pass it off as a black man who loves golliwogs?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...liwog-shetland


Writer: Lemn Sissay



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I am in the Shetland Islands wending through the crooked alleys of Lerwick, the capital. I'm here for the Shetland literature festival, Wordplay. I've had my morning walk by the cliffs and down to the town past the lodberries built into the sea where they enclose a 200m stretch of golden sand.

The shops have names like The Spiders Web and The Magpies Nest. In the window of The Magpies Nest I see a gang of golliwogs staring out at me. I catch my reflection in the window. I remember the times I was spat at in the street: "Wog go home."

I collect myself and enter the shop with a smile. The woman behind the counter rises. "Wow," I say. "I remember these from my childhood." I ask: "But do people not complain?" My smile remains. I take careful mental notes of what she says. I ask her if I can have my picture taken with the dolls. She obliges. "I think I'd like to buy one," I say. She sells me the doll. Fifteen pounds.

In 2009, following the furore over Carol Thatcher using the word, Hamleys joined the Queen's estate in banning golliwogs from its shops. Last year, on Comment is free, Richard Seymour detailed their history: "The English-American author Florence Upton invented the golliwog in a series of picture books produced at the onset of the Jim Crow laws, which mandated racial segregation in the American South. She described the character as 'a horrid sight, the blackest gnome' … He had thick lips, unruly black hair, and his hands and feet were paws." He concluded: "The most insidious feature of these images is that they were intended for consumption by children, part of their socialisation into the adult world of race relations. It is because of this that many apologists for those racist images find it convenient to lapse into sentimental fugue state, in which history is obliterated."

I recall our conversation. Each day the shop owner puts them in the window is she making a conscious decision to disregard their racist history? What statement is she making to the young and old minds of Shetlanders, and the tourists on whom the Lerwick economy depends? I wrote down my thoughts, pressed upload and the words went live on my blog.

A few days later a Shetland Times article pops up on my Google alerts. The headline reads "Shop owner considers closing after receiving criticism". They interview the shopkeeper, not me. "A visibly upset Mrs Leask, who describes the dolls using the term 'gollies' rather than 'golliwogs', told this newspaper: 'I'm in no way racist at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't think anybody who buys them is racist.'" I have become something I did not intend to be. Have I bullied a defenceless woman?

When do you speak up? How do you retain your integrity and stem the blood flow from its wound if you don't name it, if you don't call it? And is a quiet word enough? Was it right for me as visitor to the festival, no doubt funded by the taxpayers of that island, to turn around and accuse one of its citizens of racism?

I think I was right to make that call because that is what festivals are about. Writers and artists challenge received opinion. I did also voice an objection at the local MP's office on the same high street. The blog is my window to the world, as her shop window is to hers. Should I wear a T-shirt with the disclaimer, "Careful, I may blog this"? Was I duplicitous? I want to say to you I wasn't. She is a shopkeeper. I am a customer. I am a writer.

Saying she would "close the shop because of my criticism" is a powerful commitment to selling the golliwog. I think my reaction to blog about the golly is proportionate to hers to sell the golly.

I can upload my voice at the press of a button – publish – there must be some responsibility that goes with that. Something tells me I should have told her I was going to blog. But I don't know why she deserves that.

Should I have told her my opinion? No. I choose how I do that. I have no need to challenge her in person. I know what it's like to be told I am aggressive by merely being present and articulate. I couldn't risk that. Her aggressive actions spoke louder than words, so my words rise to her action. Kurt Cobain said, who needs action when you've got words. He was right. In truth she sickens me and I had to protect myself.

Should I have written my blogpost? They're only words, right? The final words throw me metaphorically back through the window – what do I do with the very real golliwog I bought.

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Old 04-06-2014, 09:03 PM   #150
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The original image of the golliwog was modelled on blacks. Blacks were slaves, or as good as slaves back then.

Why did we need a golliwog? Would we have survived childhood without them? I would. I haven't read a book about golliwogs/with golliwog characters for ages, and I'm not missing anything.

Have you seen my posts on the previous page? I made a super-long post about racial stereotyping in film and media. What's wrong with an ordinary looking black person? Why a golliwog, which was created as a caricature of blacks?
They were a product of there time. The original books weren't written with racist intentions, but they were still written I a more racist atmosphere then today.

Take Abraham Lincoln, for instance. For his time, he is well known for freeing the slaves. But, he also went on public record as saying a slave should never become president.

Not because he was racist, but because is was as enlightened as he could be, in the world he lived in.....
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:08 PM   #151
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Where did you get your information about the first black golliwog book helping children to understand that blacks "were'nt necessarily bad"? Which children? Where? How did you glean that? Proof please, zephiloyd.

Er, are you not going to explore the context of this pic? The man in the pic is offended by golliwogs, believe it or not. You saw his pic online, and took it, thinking you could pass it off as a black man who loves golliwogs?
Have you read the original book? I looked through an online version this afternoon.... The gollywag is one of a number of toys come to life over christmas, and get into so harmless scrapes. I can see how that might be delightful for children, and a positive image for them....
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:15 PM   #152
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Where did you get your information about the first black golliwog book helping children to understand that blacks "were'nt necessarily bad"? Which children? Where? How did you glean that? Proof please, zephiloyd.
Wkipedia actually
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwogg
The 1895 book included a character named the Golliwogg, who was first described as "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome", but who quickly turned out to be a friendly character, and is later attributed with a "kind face."

This is positive is it not?

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Er, are you not going to explore the context of this pic? The man in the pic is offended by golliwogs, believe it or not. You saw his pic online, and took it, thinking you could pass it off as a black man who loves golliwogs?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...liwog-shetland


Writer: Lemn Sissay
Well no I didn't, it was an image that came up under google images for golliwogs and I thought his hair didn't look dis-similar.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:19 PM   #153
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We are all slaves, some are even so engrossed in the system think they are free and get a few more trinkets to make them feel more important than others.

Once we stop bickering about race color creed income bracket, then we might get somewhere.
You've said it, ex sheep. I don't know what good it does? It has only ever brought misery. I'm not better than another because of my colour, and nobody is better than me because of their colour. I don't approve of racism, be it against people with more pigmented skins, or less pigmented skins.

Why is it the problem of the 'minorities' (who are actually the global population majorities) that a group of less-pigmented people found a racially-charged toy fun? Why is it that members of this same group want to be judge, jury and executioner? Why does this same group keep wanting to tell other groups where the lines are drawn? If people with more pigment went around with Vicky Pollard dolls and called them some derogatory name for whites, would whites like it? Then when it became known that these dolls were indeed offensive to whites, and the people with more pigment continued to demand the 'right' to enjoy them, what would the message be? Society for everyone? Or, a society full of mockery, division and hatred?

We might as well have disabled dolls, immigrant dolls, fat dolls, stretch mark dolls, gay dolls, transgender dolls, dole-scrounger dolls, chinese dictator dolls etc. We might as well just go back to colonial swashbuckling times, and talk with our fists.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:28 PM   #154
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They were a product of there time. The original books weren't written with racist intentions, but they were still written I a more racist atmosphere then today.

Take Abraham Lincoln, for instance. For his time, he is well known for freeing the slaves. But, he also went on public record as saying a slave should never become president.

Not because he was racist, but because is was as enlightened as he could be, in the world he lived in.....
Yes, they were a product of a very backward time. Hence they have no place in today's world.

As for the original books not being written with racist intentions, I'll refer you again to that super-long post about racial stereotyping.

Yes, Abraham Lincoln, in this day and age would be a racist for saying that. He was a racist, in that he saw them as different to him, not good as him. But yes, he opposed slavery. I could oppose slavery, but still think that Chinese people can never write or speak English as I do, even with all the teaching in the world. (I'm just using this as an example; people hold prejudiced views irrationally....I don't think I'm the king of english )

They were a product of their time, and their time is gone. So why are we debating this?
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:31 PM   #155
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Yes, they were a product of a very backward time. Hence they have no place in today's world.

As for the original books not being written with racist intentions, I'll refer you again to that super-long post about racial stereotyping.

Yes, Abraham Lincoln, in this day and age would be a racist for saying that. He was a racist, in that he saw them as different to him, not good as him. But yes, he opposed slavery. I could oppose slavery, but still think that Chinese people can never write or speak English as I do, even with all the teaching in the world. (I'm just using this as an example; people hold prejudiced views irrationally....I don't think I'm the king of english )

They were a product of their time, and their time is gone. So why are we debating this?
I'm trying to argue intent.... The gallywogg was never intended to be racist.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:34 PM   #156
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Im pretty sure if the gollywog was never invented or any other black doll for that matter, then the same people offended by the gollywog doll would be now offended because all dolls were "white".

Damned If you do and damned if you dont!
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:38 PM   #157
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Wkipedia actually
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golliwogg
The 1895 book included a character named the Golliwogg, who was first described as "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome", but who quickly turned out to be a friendly character, and is later attributed with a "kind face."

This is positive is it not?



Well no I didn't, it was an image that came up under google images for golliwogs and I thought his hair didn't look dis-similar.
How is it positive? HOW is it positive that blacks were still caricatured in this way? What does it matter if the golliwog has a kind face after its original malevolent face? It's a golliwog, and it's a caricature of black people. THIS is the crux of the matter. As for it being 'positive', I've linked to a book about two pages earlier that researched the golliwog and its links to racism. It made NO mention at all of any positivity emanating from the use of the golliwog.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=e...lliwog&f=false

I'd love to know how all these children (where were they living? How old? How many? Any kind of material evidence?) understood anything positive seeing as they lived in a world of constant bigotry. The simple answer is that it did zero for enlightening children about liking black people. LOL, it was being used at a time of empire, of blatant racist advertising, and we are expected to believe that because an ugly caricature had a 'kindly' face it was positive? Barbie has a kindly stepford face - is she 'positive'?

You thought the man's hair was similar to golliwogs? Well done, that's the idea behind the creation of racist golliwog toys.
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:42 PM   #158
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Im pretty sure if the gollywog was never invented or any other black doll for that matter, then the same people offended by the gollywog doll would be now offended because all dolls were "white".

Damned If you do and damned if you dont!
Actually much earlier on, I DID mention that. All dolls being white would be no different to ALL tv personalities being white, to ALL people in positions of economic, political and social power being white. Or green, or black, or brown, or red. You should have a look at old South African tv adverts. LOL, no blacks. They didn't exist, except in the townships and the slums.

The world wasn't made in the image of the white skinned human. The world is actually made of many races, and they've been fucked around with by the elites and the use of white governments and white armies, more so in the last 500 years.

When will we all be ready to share, and share alike? To notice that others have feelings or emotions? Or is it business as usual, and if the targets of our games don't like it, fuck 'em?
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:42 PM   #159
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How is it positive? HOW is it positive that blacks were still caricatured in this way? What does it matter if the golliwog has a kind face after its original malevolent face? It's a golliwog, and it's a caricature of black people. THIS is the crux of the matter. As for it being 'positive', I've linked to a book about two pages earlier that researched the golliwog and its links to racism. It made NO mention at all of any positivity emanating from the use of the golliwog.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=e...lliwog&f=false

I'd love to know how all these children (where were they living? How old? How many? Any kind of material evidence?) understood anything positive seeing as they lived in a world of constant bigotry. The simple answer is that it did zero for enlightening children about liking black people. LOL, it was being used at a time of empire, of blatant racist advertising, and we are expected to believe that because an ugly caricature had a 'kindly' face it was positive? Barbie has a kindly stepford face - is she 'positive'?

You thought the man's hair was similar to golliwogs? Well done, that's the idea behind the creation of racist golliwog toys.
But the word 'wog' is a corruption of the word 'gollywog.' that word was invented by upton herself. She didn't take a racist word and apply it to the gollywog. She invented the word, and it subsequently became a racist slur. The same would have happened to any word she invented....
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Love is natural, Hate is taught....
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:45 PM   #160
tildatod
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Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
I'm trying to argue intent.... The gallywogg was never intended to be racist.
Yes it was. It's very image is a caricature of black people. That in itself is a racist representation. Have a look at the link of the well-researched book in which golliwogs are researched.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=e...lliwog&f=false

The first book by that prick Upton was titled: "The Adventures of Two Dutch Dolls and a Golliwog" - 1895.

Quote:
"The story tells how two wooden dolls on the loose in a toy shop suddenly see "a horrid sight, the blackest gnome""...
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