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Old 05-06-2014, 12:22 PM   #221
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Was not Mr Robertson's Jam interpretation a positive character?
Looks positive to me
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:22 PM   #222
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Phreaky, why would you think naivety? She was raised in the USA. Slavery, remember? It was the norm to be racist, overtly horribly vile to blacks. Slavery had been abolished by the time she was born, but, it had been the norm for her mother's life. Not to mention, there was endless racial hatred despite the abolition of slavery. It was, very very importantly, very much still a time of empire building, empire confidence and so on. Minstrels were still performing well into the 20th century.HOW can such a person be naive? If you mean that this person was simply thinking, acting and showing the racist behaviours of the time, then yes, I would agree. At that time, there was a HUGE divide between blacks and whites. You really think that someone was not aware of that? You really think that someone who decided to write/draw ugly black 'dolls' inspired by the minstrels who took the piss out of blacks, was not aware that it was wrong? Where's the matching grotesque images of whites then?

It's a bit like South Africa. Apartheid was abolished. Er, are people magically united now? All blacks are loved? All whites are loved? Everyone's getting on? It's 20 years on from the abolition of apartheid, and the country's deeply divided.
For goodness sake, Bernard Manning and his ilk were still popular on television and in theatre until the mid 1980's.

You are suggesting that Upton should have been as socially aware as somebody that was born nearly a century later!
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:26 PM   #223
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In just saying it was the time when someone could innocently portray a black character like this....
Yes - but where were those images found? In school books, by and large. Who created the education system that was responsible for the information we receive? Who ran the print media, cinema industry and publishing houses that churned out those images in articles, books, cartoons, films? The elite, who just happened to be rich white men in power – and they weren’t about to dignify the image of the people whom they were ruling.

Context. It's important to understand it's no coincidence that this kind of imagery was rife at a time when blacks in the USA were living in apartheid "post slavery" conditions. At this time, the British empire and other European elitists had colonised Africa and the Caribbean islands. We're talking the late nineteen century until the 1960s/1970s.

Prior to this, European travelers in Africa wrote historical accounts that show an image of Africa that is poles apart from the negative 'dark continent' 'savage' narrative. That didn't go into the education system that was disseminated globally. Why wasn't this shown? Why instead were cartoon figures of ridicule put there for popular consumption? It’s because it’s in the nature of imperialism/colonialism to rewrite the history of the people they conquer in the favour of the imperialist.

The blacks couldn't fight back, they couldn't even talk back - they'd be killed. It was a master/servant relationship and the servants were meant to entertain, grin and look happy, despite the realities of their lives. Hence the golliwog!

Black kids at school – and their parents at work who were called golliwogs or wogs knew straight away that it wasn’t a cute little term of endearment. There’s a whole history behind it.

As a general observation - and not aimed at you per se, just a thing I’ve become aware of since joining in ’08 - it’s interesting that some “truthers” tend to get up in arms about the information they receive through the elite’s institutions, saying it’s fake, distorted etc. Yet as this thread has shown, they are quite comfortable with the distorted elite-created narrative of black history presented by the same institutions. (The 'Frankfurt-School-invented-racism' get out clause comes in quite "handy"!)

But it’s very simple – I just wouldn’t use racially derogatory names nor cherish caricature images of any race just because they were the ‘thing to do’ in 1910 or whenever; and they were wrong even then.

Last edited by decode reality; 05-06-2014 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:30 PM   #224
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Yes - but where were those images found? In school books, by and large. Who created the education system that was responsible for the information we receive? Who ran the print media, cinema industry and publishing houses that churned out those images in articles, books, cartoons, films? The elite, who just happened to be rich white men in power – and they weren’t about to dignify the image of the people whom they were ruling.

Context. It's important to understand it's no coincidence that this kind of imagery was rife at a time when blacks in the USA were living in apartheid "post slavery" conditions. At this time, the British empire and other European elitists had colonised Africa and the Caribbean islands. We're talking the late nineteen century until the 1960s/1970s.

Prior to this, European travelers in Africa wrote historical accounts that show an image of Africa that is poles apart from the negative 'dark continent' 'savage' narrative. That didn't go into the education system that was disseminated globally. Why wasn't this shown? Why instead were cartoon figures of ridicule put there for popular consumption? It’s because it’s in the nature of imperialism/colonialism to rewrite the history of the people they conquer in the favour of the imperialist.

The blacks couldn't fight back, they couldn't even talk back - they'd be killed. It was a master/servant relationship and the servants were meant to entertain, grin and look happy, despite the realities of their lives. Hence the golliwog!

Black kids at school – and their parents at work who were called golliwogs or wogs knew straight away that it wasn’t a cute little term of endearment. There’s a whole history behind it.

As a general observation - and not aimed at you per se, just a thing I’ve become aware of since joining in ’08 - it’s interesting that some “truthers” tend to get up in arms about the information they receive through the elite’s institutions, saying it’s fake, distorted etc. Yet as this thread has shown, they are quite comfortable with the distorted elite-created narrative of black history presented by the same institutions. (The 'Frankfurt-School-invented-racism' get out clause comes in quite "handy"!)

But it’s very simple – I just wouldn’t use racially derogatory names or cherish caricature images of any race just because they were the ‘thing to do’ in 1910 or whenever; and they were wrong even then.
To be honest, I agree. But I'm just playing devils advocate.... It might have gotten a little out of hand....
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:41 PM   #225
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To be honest, I agree. But I'm just playing devils advocate.... It might have gotten a little out of hand....
Blumin' 'eck - now you tell me?!
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:12 PM   #226
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Phreaky, why would you think naivety? She was raised in the USA. Slavery, remember? It was the norm to be racist, overtly horribly vile to blacks. Slavery had been abolished by the time she was born, but, it had been the norm for her mother's life. Not to mention, there was endless racial hatred despite the abolition of slavery. It was, very very importantly, very much still a time of empire building, empire confidence and so on. Minstrels were still performing well into the 20th century.HOW can such a person be naive? If you mean that this person was simply thinking, acting and showing the racist behaviours of the time, then yes, I would agree. At that time, there was a HUGE divide between blacks and whites. You really think that someone was not aware of that? You really think that someone who decided to write/draw ugly black 'dolls' inspired by the minstrels who took the piss out of blacks, was not aware that it was wrong? Where's the matching grotesque images of whites then?

It's a bit like South Africa. Apartheid was abolished. Er, are people magically united now? All blacks are loved? All whites are loved? Everyone's getting on? It's 20 years on from the abolition of apartheid, and the country's deeply divided.
If the creator of the golliwog was a racist who hated blacks then why didn't make the golliwog the "bad guy" instead of a loveable & likeable charactor?

I think if thats the case then she failed as most kids who owned a golliwog doll and read the books did so affectionately.
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:16 PM   #227
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Can I just point out. There is nothing basically wrong with black people being dressed like black minstrels.

It's only offensive when a white person 'blacks up'.

So unless you can convince me the gollywog isn't a white gnome pretending to be a black gnome, then that isn't in itself racist....
Did anyone get offended when two black guys "whited up" and pretended to be white girls in the film White chicks?

Maybe white people should have kicked up a stink about black people portraying white girls as stupid?
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Old 05-06-2014, 04:19 PM   #228
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Did anyone get offended when two black guys "whited up" and pretended to be white girls in the film White chicks?

Maybe white people should have kicked up a stink about black people portraying white girls as stupid?
As a TS, maybe I should be offended by drag acts. What's the diffence? Except I can't the difference between when somethingd offensive and when it's not....
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:48 AM   #229
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Did anyone get offended when two black guys "whited up" and pretended to be white girls in the film White chicks?

Maybe white people should have kicked up a stink about black people portraying white girls as stupid?
Never let logic get in the way of screaming RACIST ....there are people in our society in the UK who have really suffered through racist actions ,pretty sure non of them got beaten to death with a Gollydoll...this debate washes away the real racist crimes against people over decades all reduced to being photographed with a childhood toy as Racist. Stupid maybe ,pushing buttons maybe ...racist ..no .
To be fair to Tilda she does have a good point about the original creation of the image of "blacked" up white people " ...I always thought the Black and White Minstrel show was vile ..never understood how it could be called entertainment .
The truth is the real acts of violence on blacks are done by blacks (stabbings /shootings),or the corrupt Police to black youths .....stop and search ..
Thank god we do not hear the many stories as I did in my youth of white on black attacks ....or the reverse.
But the fact remains, controlled Borders is not and should never be called Racist .
Due to Open borders Human trafficking is at an all time high ,and its NOT about colour ...its about HUMAN abuse . and we should be concerned and care ,for all of the people being bought and sold into slavery.

Last edited by grannie27; 06-06-2014 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:25 PM   #230
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PMSL, look what happens when a teacher taught the truth about racist policies in the USA. He taught them about the Jim Crow racial segregation laws, and about how whites used to blacken their faces to mock black people. And here in Britain, nutters want to 'enjoy' golliwogs. Golliwogs founded on racism.

He was suspended. The ideal is to whitewash history, and make it look like the majority populations in this world are nutters. They're just liars, and complainers, and everything is okay. Even the class systems don't exist in different societies, and there's no unemployment, and no problems. Everything's fine, folks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3vwsTui0ZM
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:34 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
PMSL, look what happens when a teacher taught the truth about racist policies in the USA. He taught them about the Jim Crow racial segregation laws, and about how whites used to blacken their faces to mock black people. And here in Britain, nutters want to 'enjoy' golliwogs. Golliwogs founded on racism.

He was suspended. The ideal is to whitewash history, and make it look like the majority populations in this world are nutters. They're just liars, and complainers, and everything is okay. Even the class systems don't exist in different societies, and there's no unemployment, and no problems. Everything's fine, folks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3vwsTui0ZM
He wasn't suspended for that reason, he was suspended because he went off curriculum, and they can't deal with that
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Old 06-06-2014, 01:42 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
PMSL, look what happens when a teacher taught the truth about racist policies in the USA. He taught them about the Jim Crow racial segregation laws, and about how whites used to blacken their faces to mock black people. And here in Britain, nutters want to 'enjoy' golliwogs. Golliwogs founded on racism.

He was suspended. The ideal is to whitewash history, and make it look like the majority populations in this world are nutters. They're just liars, and complainers, and everything is okay. Even the class systems don't exist in different societies, and there's no unemployment, and no problems. Everything's fine, folks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3vwsTui0ZM
Tilda ,I was just wondering your view on Black Baby dolls that many Catholic girls in Scotland and Ireland were given ....as I have said I am not Catholic I have no religous faith ,but my sister in law is a Nun ,she was telling me it was to remind people of the starving children in Africa ,this was back in the 50s and 60s. I had never been aware of this until a few years ago .
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