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Old 22-12-2016, 09:35 PM   #41
tom bombadil
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Let me put that four year thing to bed.

Yes its true that if someone has been living somewhere that has an address (mail delivered) then one has more chance after a 'period' of being 'allowed' to stay.

That changed a while back in that now, the councils has authority to grant the address and not the postal service. In some places, there seems to be a bit of confusion and one local office might grant an address for post instead of the council. So forget THAT aspect at the mo.

What folk do, is build the dwelling. Then build the livelyhood around the dwelling. When found out, one would apply for retrospective planning. It takes a long time to process the legalities of such (a couple or more years) and in the meantime one is proving the point of staying. And here we are talking of a home and not just a wood lodge or small cabin.

Look up Charlies place on the www. He built on his dads land. Was seen by a coincidence by a planing officer. He was told to demolish. Retrospective planning put in. A couple of years and an appeal later and he can stay.
Not as simple but do-able. I will look for a link. Here; https://youtu.be/r5u-j1wvHX0
Follow the threads for ideas.
Yes, it was soooo close to the Lammas site. So yes, he had soooo much help. But therefore, YES a precedent is struck.
I think they used the one planet wales idea.

I would say to try and NOT hide on a local level. Be available to help others. Its is possible to do things you wish to do.....so which path to follow. Not an easy first step.
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:00 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by tom bombadil View Post
Let me put that four year thing to bed.

Yes its true that if someone has been living somewhere that has an address (mail delivered) then one has more chance after a 'period' of being 'allowed' to stay.

That changed a while back in that now, the councils has authority to grant the address and not the postal service. In some places, there seems to be a bit of confusion and one local office might grant an address for post instead of the council. So forget THAT aspect at the mo.

What folk do, is build the dwelling. Then build the livelyhood around the dwelling. When found out, one would apply for retrospective planning. It takes a long time to process the legalities of such (a couple or more years) and in the meantime one is proving the point of staying. And here we are talking of a home and not just a wood lodge or small cabin.

Look up Charlies place on the www. He built on his dads land. Was seen by a coincidence by a planing officer. He was told to demolish. Retrospective planning put in. A couple of years and an appeal later and he can stay.
Not as simple but do-able. I will look for a link. Here; https://youtu.be/r5u-j1wvHX0
Follow the threads for ideas.
Yes, it was soooo close to the Lammas site. So yes, he had soooo much help. But therefore, YES a precedent is struck.
I think they used the one planet wales idea.

I would say to try and NOT hide on a local level. Be available to help others. Its is possible to do things you wish to do.....so which path to follow. Not an easy first step.
Nice!

I suppose he had an advantage at the start if it was his dad's land.

Yeah I get what you say there.

Do you think the allotment idea has anything to it in terms of being worth a try? Definitely isn't something I've seen many people write about trying but I came across at least one.

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Old 22-12-2016, 10:01 PM   #43
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Its a big gamble doing it that way!

It's like that farmer who built himself a castle and hid it behind straw bales only to be shopped to the authorities by someone close to the 4 year deadline

I'm not sure what happened in the end but i've got a feeling they made him take it down

I guess different areas are going to permit different kinds of developments depending on what is on the Local Plan for that area

Don't invest what you can't afford to lose in the worst case scenario
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:07 PM   #44
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Its a big gamble doing it that way!

It's like that farmer who built himself a castle and hid it behind straw bales only to be shopped to the authorities by someone close to the 4 year deadline

I'm not sure what happened in the end but i've got a feeling they made him take it down

I guess different areas are going to permit different kinds of developments depending on what is on the Local Plan for that area

Don't invest what you can't afford to lose in the worst case scenario
Ah yeah and I read that it doesn't count if you've tried to hide it as such, either.

Whatever I try I won't invest too much into it and would be able to let it go as I understand its not guaranteed.
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:19 PM   #45
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Just being on dads land was ONE aspect.

Put in another light, he had a community that liked him. The dads land thing was a bonus in that he didn't pay for it, but other than that he did what lots do and just did 'it' first and worried over it later.

Did you know that it is perfectly legal to build a cabin in ones garden? If the main meals and toilet are in the house, then the cabin is classified as a bedroom or office. I have seen many folk building and living in a garden.

I mention this to just point out that lots can be done to go independent.
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:44 PM   #46
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Just being on dads land was ONE aspect.

Put in another light, he had a community that liked him. The dads land thing was a bonus in that he didn't pay for it, but other than that he did what lots do and just did 'it' first and worried over it later.

Did you know that it is perfectly legal to build a cabin in ones garden? If the main meals and toilet are in the house, then the cabin is classified as a bedroom or office. I have seen many folk building and living in a garden.

I mention this to just point out that lots can be done to go independent.
Yeah of course. And its a good example. If I had land handed down to me though or I owned it already I would hesitate even less to just do that as I can't help feeling that I'd technically be in the "right" in the end.

Yeah very interesting and so it should be. I had the thought of either of my parents gardens though one isn't really big enough and the other is looking to move, well both are actually. Plus the neighbor at one is someone who would quite probably check all the legalities etc ha ha. It'd also of course be most ideal to have your own more separate space too I guess at least for me.

Sorry to keep going on about it but do you think the allotment idea is worthy of any thought for going in this direction?

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Old 23-12-2016, 05:34 PM   #47
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Allotment would be no for me! And dont worry about asking. While I can, I (we) will help you make that decision. But dont expect me to answer on xmas tide

If you are worried over the neighbors dobbing you in, then how much more the other allotment users? Or those overlooking the site?

Legally it runs thus for the back yard thing at dads place. I will try and be sensitivehere and you need not answer me at all to the questions.

Would you prefer dads or mums place as the plot you want to build a cabin in?

Statistically, men will fair better at their dads place. Dads mostly understand other men's plights. Mums will use a son as a surrogate husband, and you will be forever looking after mum. A daughter could move right in to the home, but not the son, so much!
If you do decide on mums place, be prepared to fix and mend and pay your way.

How big are each of their respective gardens?

A couple of grands worth of structure (thats labour and materials) can be worth an extra 10k on the asking price of an average priced home. Tell that to the parents and be prepared to do it again when you do move if the house is sold. It can be sold as an office, or a bedroom.

Legally, look into if you need planning permission in your area. If not, then dont ask for it, just build within the regs (one meter from a boundary, no higher than four meters at the peak etc)
You do not need permissions if its legal!

As for the nosey Parkers, tell them to sod off! It is none of their beeswax.
Legaly a planner has no rights to come onto your land and ask questions. They might look over the fence, but if I saw them looking over mine, I would do them for voyeurism and chase them out of Dodge! Looking at my body...PERRRRRRVS. There is more to it than that, but in the long run, why NOT build on ma or pa's place?

At this point, you might look up Square foot gardening etc to maximise space in the gardens.

Are we on the right tack? Let us know. We want whats best for you, y'know?
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Old 23-12-2016, 06:08 PM   #48
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OK. Thanks , and yeah I understand.
Yeah I'm not actually worried about neighbors as such for either idea really as it would still be worth a try to me and I'd like to be me without caring about that as we were talking about before somewhere.
With the allotment idea though it would be more of a possible issue in terms of it stopping what I was doing. Though the main thing that would put me off that is the initial contract rather than someone reporting me.

Yes very true and my dad's garden though still not really big and still a terraced house is a better size for it. Good point about adding value, which I hadn't thought of. Though it would take up a lot of the garden.
I had even wondered if I could technically keep that bit of the garden as my own even if the house was sold somehow, but kind of abandoned that idea ha ha. I'd still feel like I was living in some families garden even if it was possible to do. Unless the fencing round it was enough.
When my dad moves he is most likely moving to a flat. The current house is made a for a few people to live in and there's just him, and me visiting most days.

Yeah that's true with neighbors it isn't their business and I wouldn't care if they were to report really anyway.

I guess as well as the fact he's looking to move, I ultimately wanted something to feel more my own away from there. But I know that in terms of ways to make this happen it seems one of the logical way to do it. I'll have a consider anyway.

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Old 23-12-2016, 06:20 PM   #49
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So, is the house a council house?

If not, then try and persuade him otherwise, because logicaly, you will be there with him to help him if thats the issue.
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Old 23-12-2016, 06:29 PM   #50
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Nope not council, it was bought and I think he's still paying off the mortgage. He wants to move soon ish because (and I support it) he feels it will allow him to quit his current job which he has in order to continue paying that and scale down, since at the time it was bought about 25 years ago we were six people living there.

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Old 23-12-2016, 07:49 PM   #51
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I would say the biggest challenge in going off grid is forming bonds of trust.
Most people when they consider the off-grid option is how to do it either alone or with as few people as possible. In other words they want to take the kitchen sink of privacy with them, and at the same time gain access to large unpopulated open spaces.

This is where the whole off-grid philosophy collapses into the sea.

The other flaw in the philosophy is when people consider the off-grid option, they may read a bit about it, but at some stage they then plunge into the deep end of it all with the hope of learning to swim on site, so to speak. Most off-grid ventures fail miserably, because they haven't studied and practiced the fundamentals of what it is they are trying to set out to achieve.

Going off-grid is an ENOURMOUS undertaking and requires a hell of a lot of homework.
If you really want to go off-grid, and don't get me wrong, I think it's an incredibly good and wise idea, but if you really want to truly succeed where most people have failed or are hanging in there by their finger nails, you have got to do a LOT of homework, and ease yourself in by increments.

You should keep your regular job and house and car, assuming you are lucky enough to have those, and any savings you have got, and very slowly ease your way into it, and make sure you can ALWAYS retreat back to the sanctity of where you left off in civvy street.

Because once you make that final cut, you will no longer be in civvy street and that means all the benefits and advantages you paid your taxes into over the course of your life, which you inevitably take for granted, all that will be gone. Society won't owe you anything. Not the police, the courts, the fire brigade, the health system, nothing. You are out on your own.

Once you stop paying tax, that's it, they will ignore you. So you had better do your homework and check what you're getting into, because there is a whole other world out there you don't know.

In order to be successful, you need to do it in small stages, and at each stage your number one question should ALWAYS be, not sometimes but ALWAYS be, "Who do I trust? Who can I trust? Who can I get to trust?" Because if you're starting out on this venture you're going to need people like you never imagined, and you're going to have to know how to cooperate and get on with a lot of different people from all types of backgrounds.

The one thing you're going to have to say goodbye to are your rights, and realise there is no such thing as rights. That's just a comfortable illusion people have, but if you go off-grid, you won't be able to have that illusion. You are going to have to know how to work with people and people are going to have to know how to work with each other.

So if you want to be successful in going off-grid you need to do it in very small stages and you need to get to know as many people as you can and find out if you think you honestly have a chance down that road because a lot of people don't. A lot of people would not have a clue once things started to go wrong, and they will go wrong, so you need to have experience in dealing with things when they go wrong, because once you're out there, there is no safety net, unless you and your community bothered to sit down and ensure a series of plans for such eventualities.

The truth is, you are not going to get to be master of all skills. You need to know where your discipline ends and another starts. Ask yourselves this, what are your skills? What can you do? How will you be useful in such a society? What knowledge can you bring? Are you going to be an asset or a burden? Are you just looking for a cheap holiday, or are you aware that the apprenticing takes years of hard, hard work, like you would not believe. Because it will be a hell of a lot harder than studying for a university degree. A hell of a lot harder, and a lot longer too.

So, those are just some things to consider when looking at the possibilities of going off-grid.
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Old 24-12-2016, 05:00 AM   #52
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I would say the biggest challenge in going off grid is forming bonds of trust.
Most people when they consider the off-grid option is how to do it either alone or with as few people as possible. In other words they want to take the kitchen sink of privacy with them, and at the same time gain access to large unpopulated open spaces.

This is where the whole off-grid philosophy collapses into the sea.

The other flaw in the philosophy is when people consider the off-grid option, they may read a bit about it, but at some stage they then plunge into the deep end of it all with the hope of learning to swim on site, so to speak. Most off-grid ventures fail miserably, because they haven't studied and practiced the fundamentals of what it is they are trying to set out to achieve.

Going off-grid is an ENOURMOUS undertaking and requires a hell of a lot of homework.
If you really want to go off-grid, and don't get me wrong, I think it's an incredibly good and wise idea, but if you really want to truly succeed where most people have failed or are hanging in there by their finger nails, you have got to do a LOT of homework, and ease yourself in by increments.

You should keep your regular job and house and car, assuming you are lucky enough to have those, and any savings you have got, and very slowly ease your way into it, and make sure you can ALWAYS retreat back to the sanctity of where you left off in civvy street.

Because once you make that final cut, you will no longer be in civvy street and that means all the benefits and advantages you paid your taxes into over the course of your life, which you inevitably take for granted, all that will be gone. Society won't owe you anything. Not the police, the courts, the fire brigade, the health system, nothing. You are out on your own.

Once you stop paying tax, that's it, they will ignore you. So you had better do your homework and check what you're getting into, because there is a whole other world out there you don't know.

In order to be successful, you need to do it in small stages, and at each stage your number one question should ALWAYS be, not sometimes but ALWAYS be, "Who do I trust? Who can I trust? Who can I get to trust?" Because if you're starting out on this venture you're going to need people like you never imagined, and you're going to have to know how to cooperate and get on with a lot of different people from all types of backgrounds.

The one thing you're going to have to say goodbye to are your rights, and realise there is no such thing as rights. That's just a comfortable illusion people have, but if you go off-grid, you won't be able to have that illusion. You are going to have to know how to work with people and people are going to have to know how to work with each other.

So if you want to be successful in going off-grid you need to do it in very small stages and you need to get to know as many people as you can and find out if you think you honestly have a chance down that road because a lot of people don't. A lot of people would not have a clue once things started to go wrong, and they will go wrong, so you need to have experience in dealing with things when they go wrong, because once you're out there, there is no safety net, unless you and your community bothered to sit down and ensure a series of plans for such eventualities.

The truth is, you are not going to get to be master of all skills. You need to know where your discipline ends and another starts. Ask yourselves this, what are your skills? What can you do? How will you be useful in such a society? What knowledge can you bring? Are you going to be an asset or a burden? Are you just looking for a cheap holiday, or are you aware that the apprenticing takes years of hard, hard work, like you would not believe. Because it will be a hell of a lot harder than studying for a university degree. A hell of a lot harder, and a lot longer too.

So, those are just some things to consider when looking at the possibilities of going off-grid.
Thers is loads that I might disagree with in all that polyhedron!

I am off to work now and will comment later, but I will ask this; are you willing to agree here that going off grid is different than becoming a 'prepper' or a 'survivalist' in the sense where to to escape the rat race one can be one or all three?

Going off grid here, I think as we have been discussing, is not leaving it all behind, but simply living a simpler lifestyle with minimal outside help.

In the UK we have still access to our national health service (as shitty as it is) and fire and cops and abilities to interact with others next door that do have plumbed in leccy and gas and use virgin broadband rather than a mobile for internet!
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Old 27-12-2016, 08:54 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by polyhedron View Post
I would say the biggest challenge in going off grid is forming bonds of trust.
Most people when they consider the off-grid option is how to do it either alone or with as few people as possible. In other words they want to take the kitchen sink of privacy with them, and at the same time gain access to large unpopulated open spaces.

This is where the whole off-grid philosophy collapses into the sea.

The other flaw in the philosophy is when people consider the off-grid option, they may read a bit about it, but at some stage they then plunge into the deep end of it all with the hope of learning to swim on site, so to speak. Most off-grid ventures fail miserably, because they haven't studied and practiced the fundamentals of what it is they are trying to set out to achieve.

Going off-grid is an ENOURMOUS undertaking and requires a hell of a lot of homework.
If you really want to go off-grid, and don't get me wrong, I think it's an incredibly good and wise idea, but if you really want to truly succeed where most people have failed or are hanging in there by their finger nails, you have got to do a LOT of homework, and ease yourself in by increments.

You should keep your regular job and house and car, assuming you are lucky enough to have those, and any savings you have got, and very slowly ease your way into it, and make sure you can ALWAYS retreat back to the sanctity of where you left off in civvy street.

Because once you make that final cut, you will no longer be in civvy street and that means all the benefits and advantages you paid your taxes into over the course of your life, which you inevitably take for granted, all that will be gone. Society won't owe you anything. Not the police, the courts, the fire brigade, the health system, nothing. You are out on your own.

Once you stop paying tax, that's it, they will ignore you. So you had better do your homework and check what you're getting into, because there is a whole other world out there you don't know.

In order to be successful, you need to do it in small stages, and at each stage your number one question should ALWAYS be, not sometimes but ALWAYS be, "Who do I trust? Who can I trust? Who can I get to trust?" Because if you're starting out on this venture you're going to need people like you never imagined, and you're going to have to know how to cooperate and get on with a lot of different people from all types of backgrounds.

The one thing you're going to have to say goodbye to are your rights, and realise there is no such thing as rights. That's just a comfortable illusion people have, but if you go off-grid, you won't be able to have that illusion. You are going to have to know how to work with people and people are going to have to know how to work with each other.

So if you want to be successful in going off-grid you need to do it in very small stages and you need to get to know as many people as you can and find out if you think you honestly have a chance down that road because a lot of people don't. A lot of people would not have a clue once things started to go wrong, and they will go wrong, so you need to have experience in dealing with things when they go wrong, because once you're out there, there is no safety net, unless you and your community bothered to sit down and ensure a series of plans for such eventualities.

The truth is, you are not going to get to be master of all skills. You need to know where your discipline ends and another starts. Ask yourselves this, what are your skills? What can you do? How will you be useful in such a society? What knowledge can you bring? Are you going to be an asset or a burden? Are you just looking for a cheap holiday, or are you aware that the apprenticing takes years of hard, hard work, like you would not believe. Because it will be a hell of a lot harder than studying for a university degree. A hell of a lot harder, and a lot longer too.

So, those are just some things to consider when looking at the possibilities of going off-grid.
This is my opinion here obviously, but I think I am speaking as a brit in my responses.

Your first paragraph is not a bad thing. I dont get it when you say privacy AND wide open unpopulated places are not compatable! I have found that if one wishes, one could find a neighbour sooner in the open places. Because those same spaces bring folk of the same ilk together! It takes a little longer to find out what you and your town-ey next door neighbour have in common because they might not be around all day, unlike folk doing what they have to do on their land.

The poster (sacredrealm) strikes me as someone that can make friends and trusts sooner than later.

So, for the next paragraph, not so much of a disaster at sea. In my view.

I would like to see the statistics on paragraph 3! If its just a gut feeling, I can dig that!
life, as a whole, can be failed at miserably by anyone without tuition. We all need dads to help us hit the nail, and mums to fight for. Plunging in the deep end is what we do after leaving home for the first time, standing up for ourselves in a fight or at work or with a woman (man too, girls)
The fundamentals are new to anyone. And it IS a bad move to jump head first into a hard place, but who am I to say dont? Advice is freely given, but it does not have to be accepted.

I did not do what I did without advice and crossed fingers.
Now I am 'here' in the nitty gritty, I am having hard days and soft.I am enjoying much too.

Without statistics to back your claim though, I think that most, by pure understanding of the way people succeed, will make it. And they do!

Paragraph 4, is so right except for the 'most fail' bit.

In 5 you suggest keeping your job etc...this might work for some. Not all. There are some that need to just let go of the 'role' they have now!
As for the house....nope. If its yours, you have assets. Sell it. If its rented, you are better of downsizing or living cheaper elsewhere. Notice I didn't suggest specifically where. As we are seeing here, some have many options or choices.

If one owned their home, they could sell it to buy the 'starter plot' or a smaller home close by along with a plot. etc etc etc.

If one fails and ends up in the gutter, they have not failed in life, just in that venture. Going back on grid is simple in the UK. At no point do you lose a pension or birth cert. or NI number etc unless one just does not use it. Even off grid you can have use of the NHS, though that might change if one needs a passport in the future, but so what! Get one!

Paragraph 6...nope. Not in the Uk, and I suspect not anywhere in the west. Going off grid is not going full hippy. It just isn't.

I will say though, on my plot I will have a large H for a medi copter and make sure my paths are fixed for fire and ambulances and docs. etc. My water storage will have a huge pump too to put out fires. Gravity fed and generator powered. WILL....its not ready yet.

So yes, in some ways one is responsible for their home in a way one might not have thought over. It happened in Lammas a few years ago. I talked to them in passing of fires etc. The day I left, that night someones home burned down. A caravan. In the middle of nowhere, it is not quick for a fire truck to get there. But to be truthful, in Wales, there are not many places that do have instant access to fire services, and its the construction that will save lives.

Not true in most case in the uk in paragraph 7.
One can earn, if they like, and not pay much in taxes. But some taxes are hard to get rid of!

There are earnings tax that goes along with any job. But by doing ones own taxes, they can live on the 'breadline' all of their lives. You are too small for them to bother much with.

In simple terms, one only admits to some, and not all , of their income. Simple.

You will still get a full pension and nhs etc.

It IS a different world, but not one 'you don't know' like its a bad thing.
We, here in this very thread, have been giving new laws and rights that were not known. Soon, all that are pertinent will manifest.

Paragraph 8. I think that trust of others, when one is on their own, IS IMPORTANT TOO! That paragraph is a good one for me. It looks ominous, but the jist is correct in my view.

Paragraph 9. Nope. One never loses their rights, unless they give them up, and one ALWAYS has their freedoms. Rights are an illusion, as you suggest, but we do still have many of them when one goes off grid.

For example. One has the freedom to build a barn on a 5 hectares site (12.5 acres) Notice is given. Never can they say no. However. If you are suckered into their double talk, you give up your freedom, it becomes a right, and as we know, he who gives the right can withhold the right.

Paragraph 10. There is no substitute for experience. But one has to sometimes fuck up to get it right. Step by step, rather than v.small stages.

Also, you sound a bit negative concerning communities! Yup, some can suck. Not all. In my experience, those with the same goal or beliefs will more than likely stay as a community.

Paragraph 11. Lastly. So many negatives in that paragraph fella! Years to get an apprenaship? No. You dont need to mast cutting flowers, herbs, trees etc. You just need to be proficient. You dont need to master chicken farming before you buy your first chick!

I didnt become a forester untill I planted my first tree!


Just my spin on you post. It seems very backward, and yesterday type thinking in my book.

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Old 27-12-2016, 11:30 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by sacredrealm View Post
Oh yeah I understand.

I would like to lessen my impact and be as self sufficient and free as possible rather than not use money/internet etc.

What ways were you thinking of, without owning land?

I'm feeling I can have a go by renting a plot very cheaply but I may then technically be signing something that states I shouldn't "dwell" there etc. Though I'm sure people have managed to get away with it.
without owning land? lol...you dont want to know. live in a van? be homeless? i've wracked my brains for years trying to get out from under. my solution was to get as efficient as possible as cheaply as possible. to cut expenses because there was no increasing cash flow. i moved a trailer and in return got that trailer. i fixed it up made it very warm and dry. thats about all there is to tell. no debts...no bills except internet and a cell. power, but in this place thats not much even though it gets down to minus 20 or minus 30. what i make is pretty much mine. to be honest the power is such a good deal that you cant beat it. i talked to a guy about solar. he said in ten years his investment would pay off. so he's paying a loan etc to do this. now think about that. you should have seen the look on his face when i told him that just when he pays it off and he thinks he's getting free power he'll have to start replacing batteries...and then panels, they dont last forever. no...the power company has him beat too, its called economy of scale. they ain't stupid either. they price it just at the point that it just isn't worth your while to buck the system. and i am not stupid enough to try. i've costed it out. and when you start selling back to the grid you run into rules on just how big your system can be etc etc etc. much better to have a very efficient house and get the easy stuff. a generator for outages is a good idea. better yet an inverter and your car. burns less gas. if i was by myself i would build a 12 by 16 building and avoid all the rules. the bottom line is i can do on 12000 what i used to do on 45000. but i am not saying what i make...

Last edited by reverendjim; 27-12-2016 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 27-12-2016, 11:39 PM   #55
reverendjim
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i think the term "off grid" needs to be clearly defined. as far as i am concerned the pensions and health benefits are part of the grid. the guy i mentioned who thinks he is off grid cos he's got solar? he's not off grid. he's using the grids technology. if he built the panels himself with materials he took from the ground then i'd say he had his own grid. even possession of a hammer is being on the grid if you didn't make it. lets put it this way...the first indians that met white men in the 1500's in north america got welcomed to the grid.
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Old 28-12-2016, 02:16 PM   #56
sacredrealm
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without owning land? lol...you dont want to know. live in a van? be homeless? i've wracked my brains for years trying to get out from under. my solution was to get as efficient as possible as cheaply as possible. to cut expenses because there was no increasing cash flow. i moved a trailer and in return got that trailer. i fixed it up made it very warm and dry. thats about all there is to tell. no debts...no bills except internet and a cell. power, but in this place thats not much even though it gets down to minus 20 or minus 30. what i make is pretty much mine. to be honest the power is such a good deal that you cant beat it. i talked to a guy about solar. he said in ten years his investment would pay off. so he's paying a loan etc to do this. now think about that. you should have seen the look on his face when i told him that just when he pays it off and he thinks he's getting free power he'll have to start replacing batteries...and then panels, they dont last forever. no...the power company has him beat too, its called economy of scale. they ain't stupid either. they price it just at the point that it just isn't worth your while to buck the system. and i am not stupid enough to try. i've costed it out. and when you start selling back to the grid you run into rules on just how big your system can be etc etc etc. much better to have a very efficient house and get the easy stuff. a generator for outages is a good idea. better yet an inverter and your car. burns less gas. if i was by myself i would build a 12 by 16 building and avoid all the rules. the bottom line is i can do on 12000 what i used to do on 45000. but i am not saying what i make...
Quote:
Originally Posted by reverendjim View Post
i think the term "off grid" needs to be clearly defined. as far as i am concerned the pensions and health benefits are part of the grid. the guy i mentioned who thinks he is off grid cos he's got solar? he's not off grid. he's using the grids technology. if he built the panels himself with materials he took from the ground then i'd say he had his own grid. even possession of a hammer is being on the grid if you didn't make it. lets put it this way...the first indians that met white men in the 1500's in north america got welcomed to the grid.
OK nice!
To me there could be a scale ranging from mainly self sufficient but relying on some things provided to totally self sufficient. I very much get your point about solar. I would make my own power source from scratch if I could/knew how. But would you not say that using panels (when not paying a fortune for them. Just enough for ones own needs) allows one to be "off grid" power wise in that you are not relying on the power companies for your power which they create in their way and bill you for?
Yeah they might use the the grid to be made still technically but I guess once you have them they do technically provide "free" energy. Batteries aren't too expensive and I hear they last a good amount of time and can then be recycled. I'm not saying there is a wrong or right way and if someone prefers using provided power thats fine. What provides your power?

Last edited by sacredrealm; 28-12-2016 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 28-12-2016, 02:32 PM   #57
grandmasterp
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Batteries are very expensive for solar.
I get a part of my living by cleaning solar panels, they are good kit and whilst expensive to install they deffo save on electricity bills.
Not a lot of people know this but if a solar panel is more than 10% occluded by bird shit, dirt or fallen leaves. The entire panel shuts down.
Keep those solar panels clean dudes.
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Old 28-12-2016, 11:00 PM   #58
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I suppose my view of what being off grid is where one is totally independent.

Thats why I advocate the notion of having then POWER to dip in and out when one wishes.

Being independent is what most folk mean I think. I have independence if I have leccy at home and ask them to remove the meter and replace it with my own meter. Not the point though.
Off grid nowadays , because of the North Americans, has come to mean being non connected to the power companies. Being far from the madding crowd is finding somewhere where there IS no connection. So off grid there is about providing leccy and gas and phone and water, and waste etc.

My plan is to never be totally off grid. I like my coffee for one thing! And I am DAMMED if I can grow it here....but there is acorn coffee of course.

I also have a pension coming. I will be farming for cash. I will need to dip as I go.

Becoming independent is about 'not having to'! I am not forced or coerced into things and circumstances that I cant back out of.

There is a you tube couple that are close to my ideal. Off grid with Doug and Stacey.

Being off grid under my circumstance is simply not having a job where I work for the man.

I want a tractor. It might need fixing. Zero independence.
If I had horses? They need shoeing, and leather saddles etc. Less independence.
Horses and ropes. I can do that. Fully of grid.

Just a simple example there.

As time goes by, I am less likely to need outside help.
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Old 29-12-2016, 11:39 PM   #59
reverendjim
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Originally Posted by sacredrealm View Post
OK nice!
To me there could be a scale ranging from mainly self sufficient but relying on some things provided to totally self sufficient. I very much get your point about solar. I would make my own power source from scratch if I could/knew how. But would you not say that using panels (when not paying a fortune for them. Just enough for ones own needs) allows one to be "off grid" power wise in that you are not relying on the power companies for your power which they create in their way and bill you for?
Yeah they might use the the grid to be made still technically but I guess once you have them they do technically provide "free" energy. Batteries aren't too expensive and I hear they last a good amount of time and can then be recycled. I'm not saying there is a wrong or right way and if someone prefers using provided power thats fine. What provides your power?
like i said. the power company. i did the comparison and like i said its the better deal. not by much. just enough i wouldn't go in debt for the next ten years only to start replacing batteries when i got the system paid off. they aren't stupid. they know what it cost to produce power here by whatever means and they out price the diy competition. thats how it works where i live anyway. where you are might be different.
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Old 29-12-2016, 11:43 PM   #60
reverendjim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom bombadil View Post
I suppose my view of what being off grid is where one is totally independent.

Thats why I advocate the notion of having then POWER to dip in and out when one wishes.

Being independent is what most folk mean I think. I have independence if I have leccy at home and ask them to remove the meter and replace it with my own meter. Not the point though.
Off grid nowadays , because of the North Americans, has come to mean being non connected to the power companies. Being far from the madding crowd is finding somewhere where there IS no connection. So off grid there is about providing leccy and gas and phone and water, and waste etc.

My plan is to never be totally off grid. I like my coffee for one thing! And I am DAMMED if I can grow it here....but there is acorn coffee of course.

I also have a pension coming. I will be farming for cash. I will need to dip as I go.

Becoming independent is about 'not having to'! I am not forced or coerced into things and circumstances that I cant back out of.

There is a you tube couple that are close to my ideal. Off grid with Doug and Stacey.

Being off grid under my circumstance is simply not having a job where I work for the man.

I want a tractor. It might need fixing. Zero independence.
If I had horses? They need shoeing, and leather saddles etc. Less independence.
Horses and ropes. I can do that. Fully of grid.

Just a simple example there.

As time goes by, I am less likely to need outside help.
sounds good to me...pine needle tea is good. really. just a handle full of fresh needle steeped in the pot. no milk no sugar. tasty. lots of vit c and a

Last edited by reverendjim; 29-12-2016 at 11:44 PM.
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