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Old 21-12-2016, 03:04 PM   #21
grandmasterp
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That is a great site and most sensible albeit USA based.
Nick says on there that..
"Its not easy going off the grid – and that is an understatement – you need money, skills friends, lawyers, plumbers...."
Here in the UK land is very expensive to buy and next to impossible to rent unless you have a ton of money to burn.
On top of that we have very strict planning regulations as to what can be done with land or built on it.
We downsized here from a registered agricultural smallholding and it was a money pit that we loved and enjoyed every day we lived there. Gets to the point though that it is so expensive and such hard work that you have to move on. You need to be very fit, enjoy getting up very early and being knackered by 10pm bedtime.. every day.
Without at least one good salary or second income coming in to subsidise 'living off the land" then nobody is going to make a success of it.
Diversification is the key.
Renting out holiday properties, riding school, sub letting livery and/or grazing stuff like that.
Country Smallholding Magazine https://www.subscriptionsave.co.uk/M...FcIV0wodK9ML4A is a good place to start for any UK based aspirers after 'living the good life'.
'Good' being relative to just how much hard graft you are prepared to put into it every day of the year.
If you keep stock you have to pay someone to tend to it if ever you have to go away.
We never took a day's holiday in 14-years.

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Old 21-12-2016, 03:10 PM   #22
iamawaveofthesea
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Originally Posted by grandmasterp View Post
That is a great site and most sensible albeit USA based.
Nick says on there that..
"Its not easy going off the grid – and that is an understatement – you need money, skills friends, lawyers, plumbers...."
Here in the UK land is very expensive to buy and next to impossible to rent unless you have a ton of money to burn.
On top of that we have very strict planning regulations as to what can be done with land or built on it.
We downsized here from a registered agricultural smallholding and it was a money pit that we loved and enjoyed every day we lived there. Gets to the point though that it is so expensive and such hard work that you have to move on. You need to be very fit, enjoy getting up very early and being knackered by 10pm bedtime.. every day.
Without at least one good salary or second income coming in to subsidise 'living off the land" then nobody is going to make a success of it.
Diversification is the key.
Renting out holiday properties, riding school, sub letting livery and/or grazing stuff like that.
Country Smallholding Magazine https://www.subscriptionsave.co.uk/M...FcIV0wodK9ML4A is a good place to start for any UK based aspirers after 'living the good life'.
'Good'being relative to just how much hard graft you are prepared to put into it every day of the year.
If you keep stock you have to pay someone to tend to it if ever you have to go away.
We never took a day's holiday in 14-years.
there's a whole spectrum from people living in yurts and growing food to sell in local farmers markets to eco villages like findhorn where people have regular jobs but then go back to the village and live in comfortable eco homes with all mod cons but are part of a community and involved in community events

The best thing to invest in is probably skills

There are people out there trying to launch community projects where people all put in a stake of money that builds a pot of cash that is then used to buy land. The problem is that the kind of people interested in such projects aren't usually the type that have been climbing the corporate ladder for the last 10-20 years and have stacks of cash to spare

I know of one scheme that was asking a £1000 pound stake and many couldn't afford it. I know of another scheme to build an eco village that was stopped by the planning office so you have them to contend with as well
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Old 21-12-2016, 03:18 PM   #23
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there's a whole spectrum from people living in yurts and growing food to sell in local farmers markets to eco villages like findhorn where people have regular jobs but then go back to the village and live in comfortable eco homes with all mod cons but are part of a community and invlved in community events
Findhorn is really expensive, check out the website.
Yurts are great, about £2K for a bog basic model http://www.yurtsdirect.com/buy-a-yurt.html - that'll last about two seasons if it is stored dry and away from rats through winter. Our friends in Norfolk have a field of yurts and do well renting those out but , in the UK; you can't legally live in a yurt all year round - the site has to close at least two months through winter.
The law is for yurts same as for non residential caravan sites.
The person has to have a council tax address before they can buy on lease or rent.
TiPi valley in Wales has lots of people who live off grid in yurts, benders, all sorts but they are an illegal albeit tolerated settlement. http://www.diggersanddreamers.org.uk...ng/tipi-valley Some have been there years but they don't get a living by it. Most are on benefits or do seasonal jobs.
That is unusual and the only place I know of in the UK.
If anybody thinks they can rent some woodland, build a cabin on it and get a living thereby they should try doing the research first.
As I said....
Living the simple life is very expensive indeed.

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Old 21-12-2016, 03:39 PM   #24
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Findhorn is really expensive, check out the website.
Yurts are great, about £2K for a bog basic model http://www.yurtsdirect.com/buy-a-yurt.html -our friends in Norfolk have a field of yurts and do well renting those out but , in the UK; you can't legally live in a yurt all year round - the site has to close at least two months through winter.
The law is for yurts same as for non residential caravan sites.
The person has to have a council tax address before they can buy on lease or rent.
TiPi valley in Wales has lots of people who live off grid in yurts, benders, all sorts but they are an illegal albeit tolerated settlement. http://www.diggersanddreamers.org.uk...ng/tipi-valley Some have been there years but they don't get a living by it. Most are on benefits or do seasonal jobs.
That is unusual and the only place I know of in the UK.
If anybody thinks they can rent some woodland, build a cabin on it and get a living thereby they should try doing the research first.
As I said....
Living the simple life is very expensive indeed.
you generally are not allowed to build a cabin in woods that you intend to live in. You can build a shed for your tools. As i say planning laws are a problem in this country. My hopes for the SNP is that we were going to see significant land reform in scotland that would see a boost in crofting but this has not materialised

Findhorn is expensive...like i say the people there have regular jobs and no doubt face the same costs of house buying/building that the general public do. The marinaleda farming cooperative in spain builds cheap houses through community help and the community retains ownership of the hosue once the person living in it passes away. A bender is a cheaper option then a yurt and prices of yurts can vary depending on the design eg the nice curvy ones are pricier

There are squatters camps in various buildings and places for example there are treehouses outside edinburgh on land of special scientific interest that was going to have a road built through it until activists moved in and built treehouses there. That camp made the news when someone there accidentally turned themself into a human candle

One of the offputting things relating to offgrid communities for some people is the hippy types! No offence to them but just because a person wants to live-off grid it doesn't mean they want dreadlocks and a rainbow coloured top and lets face it living offgrid will not start to be seen as 'normal' until you get some squarer type people doing it

Most regular folks don't want to live next door to rainbow moonchild who washes from a tap once a week and never shaves their legs. I went to a place once and joined a workshop that sounded interesting and found myself sitting next to the usual scruffy types; i thought we were going to be discussing activism but instead we spent our time talking about how activism made us feel. Fuck that...too much bullshit going around. I don't want to be harsh because at least the hippy types are out there doing it but what many of them are currently doing does not have mass appeal

If however society can start getting its head around some of the technologies available out there they can start building some mainstream appeal and that's where we need sustanable living to go: to the mainstream not just to fringe groups who hate the 9-5

There's no reason in my mind why land can't be decentralised down to smallholdings along organic permaculture lines and why we can't be using locally sourced renewable energy and more sustainable eco-housing but it needs more of the population to start seeing that kind of life as feasible

Most people don't want to live in a yurt but could easily see themselves living in findhorn style housing

Most folk can't see themselves building their own wooden wind turbine but could easily see themselves with a solarroof on their eco house

Most folk can't see themselves making small woodcrafts to sell at the local flea market but could easily see themselves growing some crops and picking fruit alongside some sort of paid part-time work

For many people there is a balance to be struck
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Old 21-12-2016, 11:10 PM   #25
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I would like to be as off grid as possible too and perhaps build something cheaply that covers only my needs but like most people buying land seems not so attainable yet. I'm thinking of renting an allotment anyway to grow things as I want to do that as part of things anyway, though I came across the odd story of people ending up staying in their sheds on those without being moved off. This is officially against the contract, but does anyone think if you were being a good example, in tune with nature etc and not doing any harm that you could get away with it sometimes? It just seems to be the only access I can think of for myself right now that doesn't involve loads of money, to a small plot, of which growing things would be part of other than choosing a random "abandoned" looking spot and hoping that it might be unregistered which I'm not sure where there would be any like that round where I am.
I feel I'm at the point where I'm prepared to experiment and try something whether or not its officially meant to be done. Though I'd feel silly signing a contract that states I can't do what I'd like. I just like the idea or hope that contracts can be bended slightly.
Hullo!

Living off gridis sooooo doable.

When folk talk of living off grid, they mostly mean living away from modern trappings, and not going without modern self systems!

So, having cooking gas or heating oil (kerosene) delivered IS off grid, because there are zero overheads, and if for one month you cant pay or chose to go without, then YOU CHOOSE to go without! There is no monthly charge to use the meter of the gas company.
The same can be said for leccy. Your site dictates the type of electrical supply. And in order of effectiveness we have; water or hydro generated. Next is wind or turbine generated, and lastly sun or photovoltaic generated. The sun power DOES have one advantage if you run hot water through a roof based piping system that heats or rather pre-heats the water beyond 15°C where most of the energy required to boil it takes place.

Be it turbine, or hydro turbine or sun catchment, the power is used directly AND stored in batteries for later useage.

On top of that you can use a jenny to power heavy, short term use items like a washing machine, off of! A cheap washing machine, and a cheap spinner, will be all you need once a week.

You wont need a fridge or freezer. ALLLLLL your power requirements will be met.

One you have land, wooded is better along with a field, then you can build a woodmans cabin. Fuck the neighbor's to some degree and go for it. You are allowed (huh, allowed) to manage your plot for a few months in the year from the cabin and who is to say when you are there at all? I will link you to such a cabin at the end. Its late, so if I forget just tell me.

You also need water to drink. A spring is good, but a pond or small lake is also good. You can water catchment too from a flat roof. For example; in South Wales, a roof 20x10 ft will supply you with all the water you need for a simple set-up. A roof and a storage tank is all thats needed other than filters too.

As for food, use your ample noggin!

You will not need to pay a tax. At all.

Some advice. Yurts and teepees are expensive AND designed to be moved. So why use it to live in full time? A cabin is doable and uses what is to hand.

Having an address to receive mail from is a benefit. Ask a friend if you can offically live there.

Seasonal work on your plot CAN give you an income. Remember that it is NOT a stigma to be on benefits and or to have a low income. Money is not an end to your hopes. For me to be able to live on a plot, I need to earn enough for one person to live off of. Of I can prove it to the ONE PLANET idea in Wales, then I can live there legally and not under the radar. Contact the One Planet Council via Lammas village. Look on-line. Its nothing to do with the council, but they are there to help you on your way in application to live on your plot.

Dont live in a shed. Its fucking cold. Insulate your home.

Dont give up just yet, you have a goal now.

Experiment by woofing for the summer and or winter months at Lammas and other places like it. Look on-line for the woofing HQ web site. Some folk stay for years for the price of your labour.

Dont do it alone. though you can, of course!

Grow a herb garden. 10×10ft is plenty. Use pots for some.

Grow in rows to start, not raised beds. Save cash at first. You can raise the row if you want, for free!

Dont bother with spuds at first.

Companion plant.

Learn a musical instrument or two.

Keep bees. They can be dirt cheap to set up on a small scale.

Buy all of your work clothes from a charity shop at first. Boots, shoes and gloves.

Dito your hand tools. Buy a medium sized spade and fork. To store them, pour motor oil into a bucket of sand. force them into the bucket after cleaning each time. They will outlast you.


So much you can do. So much good advice in this thread from others. Some contradictory, but thats YOUR CHOICE!

I would woof first. It gets you doing 'it' fast.
Find that friends address.
Look up the One Planet Scheme.

Keep in touch.
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Old 22-12-2016, 03:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by tom bombadil View Post
Hullo!

Living off gridis sooooo doable.

When folk talk of living off grid, they mostly mean living away from modern trappings, and not going without modern self systems!

So, having cooking gas or heating oil (kerosene) delivered IS off grid, because there are zero overheads, and if for one month you cant pay or chose to go without, then YOU CHOOSE to go without! There is no monthly charge to use the meter of the gas company.
The same can be said for leccy. Your site dictates the type of electrical supply. And in order of effectiveness we have; water or hydro generated. Next is wind or turbine generated, and lastly sun or photovoltaic generated. The sun power DOES have one advantage if you run hot water through a roof based piping system that heats or rather pre-heats the water beyond 15°C where most of the energy required to boil it takes place.

Be it turbine, or hydro turbine or sun catchment, the power is used directly AND stored in batteries for later useage.

On top of that you can use a jenny to power heavy, short term use items like a washing machine, off of! A cheap washing machine, and a cheap spinner, will be all you need once a week.

You wont need a fridge or freezer. ALLLLLL your power requirements will be met.

One you have land, wooded is better along with a field, then you can build a woodmans cabin. Fuck the neighbor's to some degree and go for it. You are allowed (huh, allowed) to manage your plot for a few months in the year from the cabin and who is to say when you are there at all? I will link you to such a cabin at the end. Its late, so if I forget just tell me.

You also need water to drink. A spring is good, but a pond or small lake is also good. You can water catchment too from a flat roof. For example; in South Wales, a roof 20x10 ft will supply you with all the water you need for a simple set-up. A roof and a storage tank is all thats needed other than filters too.

As for food, use your ample noggin!

You will not need to pay a tax. At all.

Some advice. Yurts and teepees are expensive AND designed to be moved. So why use it to live in full time? A cabin is doable and uses what is to hand.

Having an address to receive mail from is a benefit. Ask a friend if you can offically live there.

Seasonal work on your plot CAN give you an income. Remember that it is NOT a stigma to be on benefits and or to have a low income. Money is not an end to your hopes. For me to be able to live on a plot, I need to earn enough for one person to live off of. Of I can prove it to the ONE PLANET idea in Wales, then I can live there legally and not under the radar. Contact the One Planet Council via Lammas village. Look on-line. Its nothing to do with the council, but they are there to help you on your way in application to live on your plot.

Dont live in a shed. Its fucking cold. Insulate your home.

Dont give up just yet, you have a goal now.

Experiment by woofing for the summer and or winter months at Lammas and other places like it. Look on-line for the woofing HQ web site. Some folk stay for years for the price of your labour.

Dont do it alone. though you can, of course!

Grow a herb garden. 10×10ft is plenty. Use pots for some.

Grow in rows to start, not raised beds. Save cash at first. You can raise the row if you want, for free!

Dont bother with spuds at first.

Companion plant.

Learn a musical instrument or two.

Keep bees. They can be dirt cheap to set up on a small scale.

Buy all of your work clothes from a charity shop at first. Boots, shoes and gloves.

Dito your hand tools. Buy a medium sized spade and fork. To store them, pour motor oil into a bucket of sand. force them into the bucket after cleaning each time. They will outlast you.


So much you can do. So much good advice in this thread from others. Some contradictory, but thats YOUR CHOICE!

I would woof first. It gets you doing 'it' fast.
Find that friends address.
Look up the One Planet Scheme.

Keep in touch.
Hi!

Thanks a lot for the detailed and encouraging reply.

I'm looking through the One Planet thing now and it looks good. Though I have to ask, when you refer to having "a plot", are you meaning more in the form of one that you select somewhere out there without owning it and just decide to settle there? A bought piece of land? Or even including rented from the council such as a gardening allotment (like I referred to before as an easy access to a small plot, only coming with a contract and regulations, and even though very cheap, still paying the council.)

I'm prepared to try and make it work by either of those apart from buying land at this moment is out reach. I'm prepared for the challenge of those other ways though at this point. I realise I'm going to do it myself because even family members who are not all typically fully asleep people as I see it, today, still seem to think its going too far and insane ha ha. But that doesn't bother me, other than the fact that I don't drive and so would have to rely on lifts to get things like free wood to build things with. I have sourced free wood but have yet to get someone to agree to pick some up which is a bit frustrating but I have to be patient. So once I have resources etc I'm going for it myself in whatever form it is.

I actually am developing my own source of income already and I would say I'm doing quite well, at times recently to the point of it possibly being somewhere near enough to sustain me if I wasn't paying the type of rent you pay on a house or flat.
I agree about there not needing to be stigma about benefits. However I feel that having no or very low rents by taking this kind of route would mean I wouldn't need housing benefit anymore.

I know that council allotments (say) they don't want people using them for commercial gain or having workshops on them for other purposes etc.

Yeah a cabin would do me great. I might have said shed, but I would definitely insulate whatever I built and at least want to make it big enough to do what I need to do.
I liked the "woodmans cabin" idea and yeah it seems there are blurred lines as to what living in something is.

I do play instruments. Its my main passion, which I've been separated from for the most part, for a while, due to not having somewhere to do it. So I want to incorporate this into where I live (rather than renting a space just to do that which I was doing a year ago).

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Old 22-12-2016, 08:44 AM   #27
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Hi!

Thanks a lot for the detailed and encouraging reply.

I'm looking through the One Planet thing now and it looks good. Though I have to ask, when you refer to having "a plot", are you meaning more in the form of one that you select somewhere out there without owning it and just decide to settle there? A bought piece of land? Or even including rented from the council such as a gardening allotment (like I referred to before as an easy access to a small plot, only coming with a contract and regulations, and even though very cheap, still paying the council.)

I'm prepared to try and make it work by either of those apart from buying land at this moment is out reach. I'm prepared for the challenge of those other ways though at this point. I realise I'm going to do it myself because even family members who are not all typically fully asleep people as I see it, today, still seem to think its going too far and insane ha ha. But that doesn't bother me, other than the fact that I don't drive and so would have to rely on lifts to get things like free wood to build things with. I have sourced free wood but have yet to get someone to agree to pick some up which is a bit frustrating but I have to be patient. So once I have resources etc I'm going for it myself in whatever form it is.

I actually am developing my own source of income already and I would say I'm doing quite well, at times recently to the point of it possibly being somewhere near enough to sustain me if I wasn't paying the type of rent you pay on a house or flat.
I agree about there not needing to be stigma about benefits. However I feel that having no or very low rents by taking this kind of route would mean I wouldn't need housing benefit anymore.

I know that council allotments (say) they don't want people using them for commercial gain or having workshops on them for other purposes etc.

Yeah a cabin would do me great. I might have said shed, but I would definitely insulate whatever I built and at least want to make it big enough to do what I need to do.
I liked the "woodmans cabin" idea and yeah it seems there are blurred lines as to what living in something is.

I do play instruments. Its my main passion, which I've been separated from for the most part, for a while, due to not having somewhere to do it. So I want to incorporate this into where I live (rather than renting a space just to do that which I was doing a year ago).
Ok. By plot I am just referring to your end place.

Woodlands in Wales (and other places ) is cheap. 3-4k and less per acre. Ok! Thats a lot for a dude with nout, so I am pleased that you seem to have patience. This, is in some reason, why I suggest the friends address. You would woof, technically a free enterprise, and at the same time you can save. Its a lot of busking and saving. You can also, if possible, get a job and still use your friends place as an address, but you can couch surf or 'find digs'!



I am not saying its easy by any means. Were are you. based?


Ok...councils do not like you gaining an income from your plot. However, you must have noticed that at some allotments there is a shop? Double standards. I buy the winter veg from an allotment place in my area all the time. Its cheap and has good practices.

Some allotments allow for animals and foul. Use ducks, clip their wings, provide a paddling pool. Sell their poop or use it as your own. Folk you know will buy it in the first year and forget it in the second. Sell the ducks at crimbo!

If you can, start to coppice in a local public woods. Just start! Use the whipps as supports and fencing, and use the soil as a starter soil in your plot. You wont need much.

Here is that link I spoke of... https://youtu.be/py84kF3TSxg


He has other stuff too. Read the comments. They will help you make up your mind about legality and shit.

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Old 22-12-2016, 08:51 AM   #28
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I forgot to add...

Good on you for doing what most dont think of. Technically you are an entrepreneur, a business man. You see what you want and you are going for it.

As such, you might wish to write down some goals. Have it on paper and tick em off as you go. Dont make new years resolutions. If they dont happen, you might beat yourself up over it. My attitude to this list is that ;

"I reserve the freedom to change the meaning and times as I see fit".

"I reserve the freedom to be wrong and to start again".

and "Get off my case, dumb arse".

Just be you!
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Old 22-12-2016, 10:55 AM   #29
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Hi Sacred Realm

reading through Toms replies i realise that my reply wasn't aimed specifially at answering your OP and had a more general assessment of the future of offgriding which probably wasn't very helpful to you so sorry for that! I was also airing some of my own dissapointments from making inroads into this area myself

I'll post some info i've gathered in my next post that might be of more use

I wasn't meaning to say don't do it, i was just speaking about what would be required for offgridding to become mainstream which is my own dream to decentralise control off the central controllers (NWO)

As Tom said woofing and couch surfing is an option to get to know people and get around any initial lack of accomodation. There are organic farms who take on workers and that might be a good way to learn farming before taking the plunge yourself. Another way around the issue of not wanting to spend a british winter in a yurt is to live seasonally for example moving to a community in spain during the winter months

Question to tom though: concerning rainwater capture you mentioned filters but would you need UV filters to clean rainwater enough to make it suitable for drinking? Obviously greywater for dish washing and showering wouldn't necessarily need the works but to drink the water you'd need to put it through UV filters?

With toilets its possible to build your own composting toilet and if you have a stretch of woodland as tom suggested you can gain fuel for a log burning stove which can then provide hot water for drinking and washing

In the days of crofting the fireplace was the centre of the home and would be constantly burning away. A cast iron kettle would be next to it to provide hot water and a griddle pan for making cakes and biscuits but fires burn through a lot of fuel and most crofts had easy access to peat. The peat smoke passed up through the thatch of the sheiling and killed any pests in the thatch as well as sealing it with peaty oil to provide better water proofing. As tom said nowadays gas might be the best option for cooking as it's much more consistent and uses less fuel

The smokyness of the old sheilings earned them their name of 'blackhouses' and they were designed with one end slightly higher then the other. In the winter the cattle were brought into the lower end and bricked in and the heat from them would then rise up and heat the rest of the cottage! An early central heating system but perhaps not a model modern offgridders would consider using!
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Old 22-12-2016, 11:02 AM   #30
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Food and community projects

Degrowth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrowth
Decroissance or ''Degrowth is a political, economic, and social movement based on Ecological economics, anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist ideas. Degrowth thinkers and activists advocate for the downscaling of production and consumption—the contraction of economies—as overconsumption lies at the root of long term environmental issues and social inequalities. Key to the concept of degrowth is that reducing consumption does not require individual martyring and a decrease in well-being. Rather, 'degrowthists' aim to maximize happiness and well-being through non-consumptive means—sharing work, consuming less, while devoting more time to art, music, family, culture and community.

Using vacant spaces to grow food: http://sowandgroweverywhere.org

Community gardening can also be a form of direct action taken to use land for the benefit of the community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_gardening

Reclaim the fields http://reclaimthefields.org/fr

Edible park feeds 200,000 each month http://www.trueactivist.com/this-edi...0-hungry-peopl e-every-month/

Waste not, want not! Morrisons to become the first supermarket to donate all unsold food to community groups
By Imogen Calderwood For Mailonline
Published: 19:02, 31 October 2015
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-want-not-Mor risons-supermarket-donate-unsold-food-community-groups.html

• Morrisons will donate all discarded food that is safe to eat to local projects
• Food kitchens and community cafes will make meals for those in need
• An estimated 15million tonnes of food is thrown away in the UK every year
• Some retailers have been accused of deliberately sabotaging unsold food

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...ews/man-behind -campaign-for-french-supermarkets-to-donate-waste-food-wants-to-take-l aw-global-10276028.html

Eco villages
''The Global Ecovillage Network (GEN) is a growing network of sustainable communities and initiatives that bridge different cultures, countries, and continents. GEN serves as umbrella organization for ecovillages, transition town initiatives, intentional communities, and ecologically-minded individuals worldwide.

People and communities meet and share their ideas, exchange technologies, develop cultural and educational exchanges, directories and newsletters, and are dedicated to restoring the land and living a cooperative sustainable lifestyle.''

http://gen.ecovillage.org/about-gen.html

Examples of some existing eco villages from around the world are:
Findhorn
Crystal waters
Auroville
Christiana

Intentional Communities include:
Brook farm
Twin Oaks
Oneida

Local Communities Dismantling Corporate Rule
Community Rights educator Paul Cienfuegos explains how “We The People” are exercising the authority to govern ourselves and dismantle corporate rule. When small farmers in rural Pennsylvania wanted to say “no” to a corporate factory farm coming into their community, they learned they couldn’t, because it would violate the corporation’s “rights” and state pre-emption laws. So they did something technically illegal – their town passed an innovative ordinance banning corporate factory farming. It worked! The corporation left town. Pittsburgh upshifted the approach: Rather than define what we don’t want, define what we DO want. Their “Right to Water” stopped natural gas fracking in the city. Ordinances like this have been passed in over 150 communities in 9 states. Tune in to learn how this works. Episode 258. [paulcienfuegos.com, celdf.org, YouTube channel “Community Rights TV” and communityrightspdx.org]

www.youtube.com/embed/8Prylnj4NQ8

www.youtube.com/embed/Smu0x05qs58

Cooperatives offer a viable alternative to the market economy
The International Cooperative Alliance (ICA): http://2012.coop/welcome
An example of a large cooperative is: ''The MONDRAGON Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. Founded in the town of Mondragón in 1956, its origin is linked to the activity of a modest technical college and a small workshop producing paraffin heaters. Currently it is the seventh largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2011 it was providing employment for 83,869 people working in 256 companies in four areas of activity: Finance, Industry, Retail and Knowledge. The MONDRAGON Co-operatives operate in accordance with a business model based on People and the Sovereignty of Labour, which has made it possible to develop highly participative companies rooted in solidarity, with a strong social dimension but without neglecting business excellence. The Co-operatives are owned by their worker-members and power is based on the principle of one person, one vote.'' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag...ve_Corporation

Another example is: 'Suma is the UK’s largest independent wholefood wholesaler/distributor, specialising in vegetarian, fairly traded, organic, ethical and natural products. We are a workers’ co-operative committed to ethical business.' http://www.suma.coop/about/

The International Cooperative Alliance (ICA): http://2012.coop/welcome

''Slow Food is an international movement founded by Carlo Petrini in 1986. Promoted as an alternative to fast food, it strives to preserve traditional and regional cuisine and encourages farming of plants, seeds and livestock characteristic of the local ecosystem. It was the first established part of the broader Slow movement. The movement has since expanded globally to over 100,000 members in 150 countries. [1] Its goals of sustainable foods and promotion of local small businesses are paralleled by a political agenda directed against globalization of agricultural products.'' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_food

Community gardening can also be a form of direct action taken to use land for the benefit of the community:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_gardening

''Permaculture is a branch of ecological design, ecological engineering, and environmental design which develops sustainable architecture/human settlements and self-maintained agricultural systems modeled from natural ecosystems. [1][2]

The core tenets of permaculture are:[3][4]
• Take Care of the Earth: Provision for all life systems to continue and multiply. This is the first principle, because without a healthy earth, humans cannot flourish.
• Take Care of the People: Provision for people to access those resources necessary for their existence.
• Share the Surplus: Healthy natural systems use outputs from each element to nourish others. We humans can do the same. By governing our own needs, we can set resources aside to further the above principles.

Permaculture draws from several disciplines including organic farming, agroforestry, integrated farming, sustainable development, and applied ecology. "The primary agenda of the movement has been to assist people to become more self reliant through the design and development of productive and sustainable gardens and farms. The design principles which are the conceptual foundation of permaculture were derived from the science of systems ecology and study of pre-industrial examples of sustainable land use."[5]
Permaculture design emphasizes patterns of landscape, function, and species assemblies. It asks the question, “Where does this element go? How can it be placed for the maximum benefit of the system?" To answer this question, the central concept of permaculture is maximizing useful connections between components and synergy of the final design. The focus of permaculture, therefore, is not on each separate element, but rather on the relationships created among elements by the way they are placed together; the whole becoming greater than the sum of its parts. Permaculture design therefore seeks to minimize waste, human labor, and energy input by building systems with maximal benefits between design elements to achieve a high level of synergy. Permaculture designs evolve over time by taking into account these relationships and elements and can become extremely complex systems that produce a high density of food and materials with minimal input.[6]
It is worthy of note that Permaculture is a system of design only, and as such it can be applied to anything that requires design. Permaculture has been applied most commonly to the design of housing and landscaping, integrating techniques such as agroforestry, natural building and rainwater harvesting within the context of Permaculture design principles and theory.'' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture
Via Campesina (from Spanish la vía campesina, the campesino way, or the Peasants' Way) describes itself as "an international movement which coordinates peasant organizations of small and middle-scale producers, agricultural workers, rural women, and indigenous communities from Asia, Africa, America, and Europe". It is a coalition of over 148 organizations, advocating family-farm-based sustainable agriculture and was the group that first coined the term "food sovereignty".[1] Food sovereignty refers to the right to produce food on one's own territory. Via Campesina has carried out several campaigns including a campaign to defend farmer's seeds, a campaign to stop violence against women, a campaign for the recognition of the rights of peasants, a Global Campaign for agrarian reform, and others.'' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Campesina
Grow Your Own Food: thehortchannel.com

EP1 February
www.youtube.com/embed/04ZbDuavag8

The Earth Rights Institute http://www.earthrights.net/wg/q-land-ethic.html

Grow local http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/04/1...-local-go-hung ry/
10 ways to commit nutritional anarchy
http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/10-w...ional-anarchy- 07252013
Anarchy is defined as the non-recognition of authority. If nutrition becomes regulated by a bunch of bureaucrats who, at best, don’t really care about people, and at worst, hope to depopulate the globe, you must have the plans and weapons in place to live a life of nutritional anarchy. Take these steps to prepare for the day when real vitamins might be completely inaccessible without a prescription.
1. Educate yourself on which foods provide the most nutritional bang for the buck
2. Plant nutrient dense flora in your garden
3. Learn to identify edible plants and locate wild sources of nutrients, like a field of dandelions (make sure they are not sprayed with pesticides)
4. Learn small space gardening methods to make the most of urban locations
5. Consider hydroponics and/or aquaponics
6. Purchase heirloom seeds to put aside for the future, when they may no longer be available
7. Learn how to properly save and store seeds from your own plants for future gardening endeavors
8. Learn how to harvest and preserve the bounty from your own property
9. Practice preparing delicious meals using the most nutritious foods available
10. Experiment with multiple ways to use the in-season bounty from your garden to prevent boredom
These are the actions that will provide our independence from those who would have the audacity to regulate good nutrition.
Utopian ‘Harvest Your Own’ Groceries Coming Up
August 3, 2013
Heather Callaghan
Places like Wal-mart brag that they eliminate the middle man; but they haven’t seen the likes of The Farmery.
What if your food was grown at your store – and it’s not even picked yet until you come by to cut the plants. You’re not a shopper, you’re a harvester. Better yet, what if Farmeries come to urban neighborhoods – both high and low end?

Defending the Imperative for Real Food and Real Farmers
by Julian Rose
Going ‘organic’ is basically a return to farming regimes that were used on all small and medium sized family farms throughout Europe and North America up until the Second World War. There are still countries that remain largely committed to this form of land management and one will find most examples of these in Eastern Europe. Which brings me to Poland.
Poland is a country still blessed with around one million three hundred thousand small family farms, with an average size of around seven hectares. These farms have resisted both a Russian communist occupation with a penchant for creating large state-owned holdings, and now a Western capitalist regime with a penchant for corporate take-overs and mass exploitation of soils for profit.Julian Rose is an early pioneer of UK organic farming, international activist, social entrepreneur, writer and actor. His latest book ‘In Defence of Life’ is available at www.amazon.org and at Julian’s web site: www.julianrose.info

How to Establish a Food and Farming Model that Works for Everyone
by Julian Rose
Intro: Julian Rose lays out a pragmatic model for bringing together local and regional food production and consumption. Julian has had more than 30 years experience in this field; selling the great majority of his organic farm produce within a ten mile radius of his farm. This article is drawn from his book “Changing Course for Life – Local Solutions to Global Problems.”
If Cathedrals are meant to stand as symbols of man’s aspiration to a higher spiritual consciousness, then hypermarkets are surely monuments to society’s lowest level of material greed. While the farmers and factory workers who toil to provide the products that line their plastic shelves receive the absolute minimum economic reward for their labour, the hypermarkets boast huge profits and evermore grandiose expansion plans. So distorted is the scale and motivation of this form of trading – and so destructive to both human and environmental welfare – that any caring individual should find it abhorrent to carry on worshipping at this golden calf.

Why is Wheat Such A Problem in the Modern Diet?
By WTStaff October 29, 2015 Catherine J. Frompovich,
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2015/10/2...a-problem-in-t he-modern-diet/
Wheat, which used to be considered a “staff of life,” in recent times, has become a dietary scourge for numerous men, women, and children. What happened, especially when there are so many processed foods that contain wheat or wheat derivatives?
First and foremost, we ought to realize that wheat grown today is a hybridized version of heirloom wheat during the early 20th century. Einkorn [1], which probably was the oldest variety of wheat known and grown for thousands of years, has fallen out of favor even though it contains a lower percentage of gluten.

Seed libraries http://in5d.com/two-free-smartphone-...nate-monsanto- aspartame-hfcs-and-processed-foods/

Experiment boosts crop yields without GMO’s http://www.activistpost.com/2015/03/...-this-to-incre ase.html

Local energy aggregation network http://www.commondreams.org/news/201...r-power-supply

Denver Homeless Out Loud (DHOL) have built mini homes for the homeless which the government want to destroy: http://livingoutdoors.ga/2016/01/04/...police-to-demo lish-tiny-homes-for-the-homeless/

Organic food growth and the earth angel eco village http://earthangelvillage.org/product...deninggrowing/

Solar powered Eco pod for off grid living
http://www.naturalblaze.com/2016/01/...ts-you-live-of f-grid-anywhere.html
If you were one of the many infatuated by the solar-powered pod that allows you to live off-grid anywhere in the world, you’ll be stoked to know that they’re finally on the market.
According to Ecocapsule, a limited edition of 50 self-powering pods is available for pre-order.

Organic farming 'could be key to feeding the world as global warming takes hold'
Major study finds chemical-free agriculture restores the soil and can produce higher yields than ‘conventional’ methods
Geoffrey lean
Saturday 13 February 2016

Organic farming – long held to be irrelevant in tackling world hunger – could be key to feeding the world as global warming takes hold, one of the biggest studies ever to be carried out into the “contentious” practice has concluded.

The research, which has reviewed hundreds of studies stretching back over four decades, not only overturns conventional wisdom but contradicts Britain’s official Food Standards Agency, which has repeatedly attacked chemical-free agriculture. It adds to emerging evidence that it may be more productive and profitable than conventional farming in the long term, especially in developing countries, and says it can provide an “ideal blueprint in addressing climate change”.
www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a6872501.html

How 'farmacy' practice, or using food as medicine, can change the world
Friday, February 19, 2016 by: Jennifer Lea Reynolds

In the name of demonstrating how effective plant-based whole foods are when it comes to improving health, Dr. Ronald Weiss actually sold his medical practice and opened up a "farmacy" by the name of Ethos Primary Care, to help others. The farmacy, located in Long Valley, New Jersey, is designed to do as the generic name implies: Rather than having people rely on traditional pharmacy practices, the concept is to show how farm-based, real foods contribute to better health more than any synthetic drug ever could – hence the word "farmacy."(1)

"Plant-based whole foods are the most powerful disease-modifying tools available to practitioners — more powerful than any drugs or surgeries," says Dr. Weiss. "I am not saying if you fall down and break your ankle, I can fix it by putting a salve ofmugwort [sic] on it. You need someone to fix your fracture," he explained. "I am talking about treating and preventing chronic disease — the heart attacks, the strokes, the cardiovascular disease, the cancers ... the illnesses that are taking our economy and our nation down."

To read on click on link above www.naturalnews.com/053030_fa..._medicine.html
LOCAL FOOD is creating a renaissance in the US: www.alternet.org/food/how-loc...al-renaissance
Values Change For Survival; Growing a Better Way of Living
April 27, 2016, Neenah Payne

My new Urban Gardens Revolution website shows that an increasing number of people are choosing to be the change they want to see in the world simply by growing their own food! Dr. Vandana Shiva says that the “Urban garden is the greatest revolution!” Jules Dervaes, founder of the Urban Homestead, calls his 1/5 acre city garden on which he grows 6,000 lbs of food each year “The Path to Freedom”.
The Urban Gardens Revolution site links to the free online Food Revolution Summit which takes place April 30-May 8. Dr. Joseph Mercola, who has one of the most popular health sites, says in his article “Reinventing Our Food System, One Small Farm At A Time”:
I cannot encourage you strongly enough to take control of the food that you’re eating. A great way to get started on your own is by sprouting. They may be small, but sprouts are packed with nutrition and best of all, they’re easy and inexpensive to grow.
www.activistpost.com/2016/04/...of-living.html

Small Farmers—Not Corporations Like Monsanto—Are the Key to Food Security
Humanity has been eating 8,500 different plant species. Today we are being condemned to eat GM corn and soy.
By Vandana Shiva / EcoWatch
May 24, 2016

May 22 has been declared International Biodiversity Day by the United Nations. It gives us an opportunity to become aware of the rich biodiversity that has been evolved by our farmers as co-creators with nature. It also provides an opportunity to acknowledge the threats to our biodiversity and our rights from IPR monopolies and monocultures.

Just as our Vedas and Upanishads have no individual authors, our rich biodiversity, including seeds, have been evolved cumulatively. They are a common heritage of present and future farm communities who have evolved them collectively. I recently joined tribals in Central India who have evolved thousands of rice varieties for their festival of “Akti.” Akti is a celebration of the relationship of the seed and the soil and the sharing of the seed as a sacred duty to the Earth and the community.

read more here: www.alternet.org/food/small-f...-food-security

Drinking Water Can Be Harvested from the Air Using This Invaluable New Technology
Posted on September 10, 2016
By Christina Sarich
The earth’s atmosphere contains just as much water as all our lakes, rivers, streams, ponds, underground well water, and oceans, combined. It’s a veritable Niagara Falls of water that could be used by people living under extreme drought conditions, who have been hit by natural disasters, or who live in remote desert areas, if only we could figure out how to harness it.
A new technology developed by Israeli scientists captures water from the air with 65 percent more efficiency than previous water vapor-collection methods. According to Water & Sanitation for the Urban Poor, one billion people worldwide live without clean, safe drinking water, and two billion more live without basic sanitation for the water that is available to them.
www.naturalblaze.com/2016/09/...echnology.html

Enormous Green Hub Market to Offer Relief from Notorious NYC Food Desert
Posted on September 22, 2016
By Chris “Kikila” Perrin
Over what has been called “a food desert,” rain clouds are gathering, and with them comes much needed access to what very well might be affordable, healthy sustenance. South Bronx, New York, home to no farms and no agricultural production whatsoever, being able to purchase food that is healthy has not been the most affordable option.
With a recent announcement from New York Governor, Andrew Cuomo, however, “the times,” a great poet once said, “they are a changin’.”
Not just a ghetto housing the victims of dispossession (pgs. 2, 150) and redistributive economic policy, the South Bronx is soon to become a major intersection for food, linking inner-city families to up-state farmers on a scale that has never before been realized. Greenmarket, Co., the organization that will be in charge of running the massive, “120,000 square foot indoor/outdoor market,” not only received the promise of funding from the Governor’s announcement, they also received a fair dose of legitimacy.
www.naturalblaze.com/2016/09/...od-desert.html

How To Make A Seed Bomb And Transform Your Local Community (w/Infographic)
Posted on October 11, 2016
By Amanda Froelich
Not only do plants make urban environments more appealing, they also provide CO2 and, according to some studies, help reduce the stress people experience. For this reason, one might imagine that modern cities would be overflowing with green flora, but this is anything but the case.
In many cities, it’s actually illegal to grow land in public spaces (just read about activist Ron Finley), regardless if the area is being used or not. In effect, a number of activists have begun creating seed bombs to secretly grow fruits, vegetables, and flowers for community members to utilize. This type of activism is called guerrilla gardening.
As the Infographic below explains, it’s actually quite easy to create seed bombs. And, anybody can be a guerrilla gardener. Read below to learn more and get started!
www.naturalblaze.com/2016/10/...community.html

This Wind-Powered Device Pulls 11 Gallons Of Drinkable Water From The Air Each Day
Posted on October 11, 2016
By Amanda Froelich
Whereas many individuals in developed nations often worry over catching their favorite television show, a constant stress for approximately 2.3 million people on the planet has to do with obtaining clean, drinking water. Fortunately, a solution to the latter conundrum has been presented, and it’s one that might ease generations of worry in locations where purified water is hard to come by.
The Water Seer collection device relies on simple condensation to collect drinkable water from the atmosphere and can provide up to 11 gallons of clean aqua each day without one external power source. Best of all, it can potentially run forever and does not create greenhouse gas emissions which contribute to climate change.
www.naturalblaze.com/2016/10/...-each-day.html


The Many Ways Farmer's Markets and Small Family Farms Are Essential to Our Future
Most effective, bio diverse, more workers, nimble, adaptable -- all in contrast to giant factory farms.
By Melissa Kravitz / AlterNet
October 12, 2016
Ending food insecurity may be as easy as supporting your local farmers market. In advance of World Food Day on October 16, American Farmland Trust, a Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit that promotes environmentally sound farming practices, named its top farmers markets in the nation, many of which are based in warmer southern states like Florida and Virginia. But no matter what region you live in, farmers markets and small farms are essential to community health.
“Small family farms have been shown to be the most effective, per acre, at ecological stewardship, biodiversity and production of nutrition,” said Severine von Tscharner Fleming, founder of the Greenhorns, a non-profit group working to support a new generation of young farmers. “Small family farms employ more workers, supporting the local economy and rural prosperity … and can adapt and change with the market demands or shifts in climate," she argues.
www.alternet.org/food/why-far...-public-health

Football Field Farm Turns Around College And Builds Community With Organic Produce
Posted on October 17, 2016
By Brianna Acuesta
The We Over Me Farm has completely transformed the community.
When President Michael J. Sorell took over at Paul Quinn College, a private, historically black college in Texas, the school was just barely getting by. Sorell knew he needed to make some serious changes if the college he now ran was going to succeed once again and continue to make a name for itself.
For him, that meant making some really tough choices. Since college football has such a strong fanbase in America, it was difficult for Sorell to make the decision to cut the entire team. What the college was left with was an empty sports field and lots of ideas about how to put it to use.
After three years of mulling over their options, Sorell collaborated with Trammell S. Crow, a local real estate agent who was also a philanthropist and looking to add a community garden to the area. The football field was the perfect locale, and what started out as a few raised beds with some small crops quickly turned into so much more.
With the help of Crow and a sponsorship from PepsiCo’s Food For Good Initiative, the We Over Me Farm became a reality. Today, the organic farm boasts an annual yield of 30,000 pounds of food, 15-20 percent of which is donated to local food charities. The farm has also gotten the college back on the right track and it’s now listed as a local food producer.
www.naturalblaze.com/2016/10/...c-produce.html

Desert Farm Grows 17,000 Tons of Food Without Soil, Pesticides, Fossil Fuels or Groundwater
Posted on October 24, 2016
By Amando Flavio

Innovations that will make the human race thrive on Earth, saving its finite resources from extinction, are something we should embrace without a second thought.
We get our food from plants and animals. As we grow in numbers, so too does the global demand for food. Currently, activists are fighting the spread of Genetically Modified Food (GMO). The argument for GMO proponents has been that the world is running out of its resources, and hence, we need to find ways and means to sustain us. According to them, GMOs will ensure that we maintain our food production level. This argument might sound convincing on first hearing, however, deeper probing of GMOs has revealed that the harm it causes far outweighs the good it does.
A start-up, called Sundrop Farms, has developed high technology greenhouse facilities that use a number of solutions to grow crops with less reliance on finite natural resources, than conventional greenhouse production. Sundrop Farms has offices in London in the United Kingdom, and Adelaide, in southern Australia.
www.naturalblaze.com/2016/10/...oundwater.html

Urban farming from a shipping container http://www.naturalblaze.com/2016/08/...container.html

Drinking water harvested from the air: http://www.naturalblaze.com/2016/09/...echnology.html

New Jersey Assembly Committee Passes Bill to Legalize Raw Milk
Posted on December 14, 2016
By Mike Maharrey

On Monday, a New Jersey Assembly committee unanimously approved a bill that would legalize limited raw milk sales in the state, taking an important step toward effectively nullifying a federal prohibition scheme in effect.

Assemblymen John DiMiao (R-Dist. 23) introduced Assembly Bill 696 (A696) earlier this year. The legislation would allow holders of a raw milk permit “to sell, offer for sale or otherwise make available raw milk directly to consumers but only at the farm or property where the raw milk is produced.”
Current New Jersey law imposes a complete ban on the sale, transport and importation of raw milk or raw milk products.
A696 would also create a permitting program, set sanitation standards for raw milk sellers, and establish labeling and signage regulations.
The Assembly Agriculture and Natural Resources Committee favorably reported A696 by a 5-0 vote.
http://www.naturalblaze.com/2016/12/...committee-pass es-bill-to-legalize-raw-milk.html

How Julius Nyerere’s Ujamaa idea could form the basis of a new global political system
Posted May 12 2015 by Dave Darby
How it worked
The system started with 17 villages in 1961, and by the 70s, 20 million people out of a total population of 24 million were living in Ujamaa villages. The average size of a village was around 3000, and each group of ten households elected one of their neighbours, who obviously they knew well, to sit on the village committee. Each village committee elected one of their members to sit on the district committee; each district committee elected one of their members to sit on the regional committee; and each regional committee elected one of their members to sit on the national government. That was it. That was how Tanzania was run from the sixties to the eighties. I have much more information about the development of this system, which I will make available online soon.

What happened to the Ujamaa system

I was told that the World Bank (representing the corporate system) pressured Tanzania to dismantle the system. The first demand was that Tanzania have multi-party elections. Their response was that the Ujamaa system is actually more democratic than a multi-party system, because representatives were known personally by their electorate, and there was no party line or any avenues for corruption (by money, at least). But their pleas fell on deaf ears, and because they required World Bank funds for things that needed to be imported, like oil or machinery, they had to give way and hold multi-party elections. Chama Cha Mapinduzi won the election, and so the Ujamaa system was saved. This wasn’t enough for the World Bank, who demanded that the system be unhooked from the governance of the country – and of course they got their way.
http://www.lowimpact.org/how-julius-...itical-system/

Transforming Our Communities Ourselves With Technology
April 23, 2016, By Brian Berletic

Many people may mistakenly believe that the future is something that others, like big companies or governments usher in and that they themselves play either a minor active role, or one that is entirely passive. In reality, there are already groups of regular people just like you or me around the world literally building the future of their communities themselves with their own two hands and in collaboration with their friends, family, neighbors, and through the power of the Internet, with like-minded individuals around the world.

Makerspaces
A makerspace is exactly what it sounds like: a space where you make things. However, it is often associated with computer controlled personal manufacturing technology like 3D printers, CNC mills, and laser and/or waterjet cutters. There is also a significant amount of electronic prototyping equipment on hand including opensource development boards like the Arduino, which allows virtually anyone to control physical objects in the real world.
read more here http://www.activistpost.com/2016/04/...echnology.html


Tesco to Give All Unsold Food to Charity in its 800 UK Supermarkets
by Good News Network - Mar 13, 2016

Tesco in the U.K. announced Friday the nationwide rollout of a program that dramatically reduces the amount of food that goes to waste by giving all of the grocery store’s surplus food to charities.
Through its new Community Food Connection, Tesco will redirect millions of meals to shelters, food banks, and community centers by end of 2017. The initiative was given a trial in Merseyside, England, near Liverpool, and is making a big difference to local charities as a result.
http://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/tesco...-supermarkets/

Utopian off-grid Regen Village produces all of its own food and energy
Wednesday, August 03, 2016
James Ehrlich, founder of ReGen Villages, commissioned Danish architectural firm EFFEKT to envision a future where self-sustaining communities could grow their own food and produce their own energy. ReGen Villages are planned off-grid communities that address issues ranging from climate change to food security through sustainable design. They plan to start building these utopian communities this summer
http://www.naturalnews.com/054858_Of...od_Energy.html

Why Are the Residents of This Small Village So Happy? They're Managing Their Farmland as Commons
Their fundamental premise is that the value of farmland lies in its contribution to food production, lasting ecosystems and human life—not financial gain.
By Véronique Rioufol, Sjoerd Wartena / Levellers Press
November 18, 2016
A feeling of joy and achievement runs through the group of ten people gathered in Robert’s kitchen. After three years of planning, they have come to celebrate: Ingrid and Fabien will soon be able to settle down and develop their farming business. The farm is theirs!
In this small, pastoral village of the French Pre-Alps, establishing young farmers is an act of will. Everywhere, small mountain farms are closing down; work is hard and the business not deemed profitable enough. When aging farmers retire, they do not find a successor. The best land is sometimes sold off to one of the few more or less industrialized farms that remain. Overall, villages are progressively abandoned or become havens of secondary residences.
In Saint Dizier, a small village of thirty-five inhabitants, local people have decided differently. Municipality members, local residents and farmers have decided to preserve agriculture as a component of local economic activity and lifestyle. They also view farmers as young, permanent residents for the village. So they keep an eye on land put for sale, and have contacted farmers and landowners to learn their plans for the future. The municipal council has sought public subsidies to acquire farmland and rent it to young farmers, but with no success.
read on here: http://www.alternet.org/food/why-are...rmland-commons

Community centres http://www.alternet.org/local-peace-...-make-world-be tter-place-one-community-center-time

A solar city https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=y3N1Lzbv22I

Forget solar panels, now there are solar roofs http://www.naturalblaze.com/2016/08/...tesla-announce s-plans-build-stunning-solar-roofs.html
__________________
when the people in power want you dead, just existing is a revolutionary act

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Old 22-12-2016, 12:58 PM   #31
tom bombadil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamawaveofthesea View Post
Hi Sacred Realm

reading through Toms replies i realise that my reply wasn't aimed specifially at answering your OP and had a more general assessment of the future of offgriding which probably wasn't very helpful to you so sorry for that! I was also airing some of my own dissapointments from making inroads into this area myself

I'll post some info i've gathered in my next post that might be of more use

I wasn't meaning to say don't do it, i was just speaking about what would be required for offgridding to become mainstream which is my own dream to decentralise control off the central controllers (NWO)

As Tom said woofing and couch surfing is an option to get to know people and get around any initial lack of accomodation. There are organic farms who take on workers and that might be a good way to learn farming before taking the plunge yourself. Another way around the issue of not wanting to spend a british winter in a yurt is to live seasonally for example moving to a community in spain during the winter months

Question to tom though: concerning rainwater capture you mentioned filters but would you need UV filters to clean rainwater enough to make it suitable for drinking? Obviously greywater for dish washing and showering wouldn't necessarily need the works but to drink the water you'd need to put it through UV filters?

With toilets its possible to build your own composting toilet and if you have a stretch of woodland as tom suggested you can gain fuel for a log burning stove which can then provide hot water for drinking and washing

In the days of crofting the fireplace was the centre of the home and would be constantly burning away. A cast iron kettle would be next to it to provide hot water and a griddle pan for making cakes and biscuits but fires burn through a lot of fuel and most crofts had easy access to peat. The peat smoke passed up through the thatch of the sheiling and killed any pests in the thatch as well as sealing it with peaty oil to provide better water proofing. As tom said nowadays gas might be the best option for cooking as it's much more consistent and uses less fuel

The smokyness of the old sheilings earned them their name of 'blackhouses' and they were designed with one end slightly higher then the other. In the winter the cattle were brought into the lower end and bricked in and the heat from them would then rise up and heat the rest of the cottage! An early central heating system but perhaps not a model modern offgridders would consider using!
I concur. With rain water and springs and water from stream's and ponds etc, one would want a UV filter at the last stage. The filter idea runs thus;
Large particles, small particles, fine particles, bacteria, some viruses. The good old Berkey filter will NOT remove all viruses, and the folk you might see with one are mostly getting from a ground well. This is purged once a year with a chlorine solution to combat virus build up. So a Berkey and NO UV filter is fine there. But for any surface water catchment, if zero chems are to be used, then UV is the last in the chain.

They run from £70 to £200 for a big set up. They are cheap to run so a battery set up (via your leccy maker is ok) But you 'could' store a large amount of drinking water every week and turn off the unit to conserve batt life.

By the same token. A pond or roof, filtered to a water drum, and then cleansed with chlorine tablets will also deal with those pesky viruses. You could do that first as you save for a UV unit.

Cost wise...Pond or lake dug out by yourself will cost the amount to hire the digger (and man) for a day, and the clay if required to line the pond (how big is the pond/lake). Bentonite clay is just cat litter, sold in 25-50kg bags on a pallet. Stock the pond with life. So...digger and clay.

Then you have a draining area that puts water to the filters (and to overflow) before storage or to the home for UV and or tank storage. Ebay..... £200 ish! Then a small UV filter under a hundred. Pipes too and fittings.
So...block built overflow £60 ish, pipes (ebay) filters (ebay) Fittings (ebay) Dont be put off with the prices. To start, you could filter and boil using a camping methodology. But as the years go by, you now know what to do.
ALSO.....if you are close to a pipe, get the water company to connect you up. Your choice!

I used to be an advocate for the wood burning stove, but my mind has since changed.

a well managed woods can, according to some, supply you with enough firewood for each year for ever. However! This indicates a well managed woods to start with and for the first timer this will not be the case. Having a larger woods helps but it does need to be maintained as you go. Those faggots and big sticks soon go missing.
I will tell you my method in a min, but I recommend you look into a mass rocket heater! This is NOT to cook on. It is ultra clean burning. It uses 10% of the normal wood requirements.
Look on line for the notion!
While you are there er...'working ' in your woods for any given time, it will be always warm. Just sticks and twigs.

For cooking and as a stove you might wish to go for a wood stove, but cost wise, in the first few years, go for a big orange gas set up with a gas hob and a big pot and lid for the 'oven'!

My set up is thus; I have around 2 acres of woods and lots of field. I planted 150 willow in a screen formation. These are ready in 2 years and on for ever from then on to feed my mass rocket heater (that I have not yet built). I planted 150 poplar, these are ready for occasional lopping each year end from 7-10 yrs. I never cut these down, I just trim the branches whenever I want to use the wood burner (that I dont have yet). I planted 150 hazelnut root stock. These will be ready as whipps in 5-7 years. These will burn longer than the willow in the burner.

Each plant cost on average £1 . Brought in bulk costing less.


Its a ling term plan. My woods has lots to be going with. I cook on gas. I will make a bread oven one of these days.

Toilets. Make your own composting jobby. As said before, these are the way to go (to the poo)
Have a separator for pee and a fan for smells.



THOSE LINKS ARE AWESOME IAMAWAVEOFTHESEA! Lots to look at.
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Old 22-12-2016, 01:00 PM   #32
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Ok. By plot I am just referring to your end place.

Woodlands in Wales (and other places ) is cheap. 3-4k and less per acre. Ok! Thats a lot for a dude with nout, so I am pleased that you seem to have patience. This, is in some reason, why I suggest the friends address. You would woof, technically a free enterprise, and at the same time you can save. Its a lot of busking and saving. You can also, if possible, get a job and still use your friends place as an address, but you can couch surf or 'find digs'!



I am not saying its easy by any means. Were are you. based?


Ok...councils do not like you gaining an income from your plot. However, you must have noticed that at some allotments there is a shop? Double standards. I buy the winter veg from an allotment place in my area all the time. Its cheap and has good practices.

Some allotments allow for animals and foul. Use ducks, clip their wings, provide a paddling pool. Sell their poop or use it as your own. Folk you know will buy it in the first year and forget it in the second. Sell the ducks at crimbo!

If you can, start to coppice in a local public woods. Just start! Use the whipps as supports and fencing, and use the soil as a starter soil in your plot. You wont need much.

Here is that link I spoke of... https://youtu.be/py84kF3TSxg


He has other stuff too. Read the comments. They will help you make up your mind about legality and shit.

OK I see. I understand their my be difficulties especially if not owning the land as I currently wouldn't be. Though I in a way would enjoy trying something for the sake of trying. As I feel the worst that can happen is being asked to stop/move.

So do you think a patch in public woods is a better idea than a council allotment for attempting something? (with attempting being the key word).

Part of me thinks the latter one would using the system to get what I want (or trying) yet I also guess the public patch is not contracting with them and being dishonest about my aims. Though I don't feel they would necessarily care and watch me they seem to be left alone for the most part. Though I know they are inspected every so often.

I was told I would be allowed if I asked for permission to put up a structure on one of their plots of "normal" size, which is a bit vague. Its possible something to live in would be considered too big I guess.

I wouldn't have even any longer considered council ones though any longer if it wasn't for the fact there is one not too far off with several vacant plots and no waiting list. It seemed a waste of the plots ha.

I am in West Yorkshire. So I guess not exactly the best open place for such a thing but as we established I'll still have a go.

I notice on the nearest woods to me there are park rangers who go around on bikes. Though they usually ride up and down the path outside of the actual wood area from what I see. There are allotments there too but they are always full.
It is a wood where people regularly walk through, though it would be cool to look to see if there are any patches like the one in that video that people leave alone.
Interesting that the field above the woods is classed as owned by the people of the town as the person who owned it a long time ago gave it to them. Yet of course park rangers wouldn't let you do anything on there so I'm not trying on the field where its obvious.


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I forgot to add...

Good on you for doing what most dont think of. Technically you are an entrepreneur, a business man. You see what you want and you are going for it.

As such, you might wish to write down some goals. Have it on paper and tick em off as you go. Dont make new years resolutions. If they dont happen, you might beat yourself up over it. My attitude to this list is that ;

"I reserve the freedom to change the meaning and times as I see fit".

"I reserve the freedom to be wrong and to start again".

and "Get off my case, dumb arse".

Just be you!
And thanks! Exactly. I feel I have to go in the direction of me now, by default.
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Old 22-12-2016, 01:02 PM   #33
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And no problem iamawaveofthesea I appreciated your posts as well. I didn't feel you were saying to not do it.

The composting toilet etc is definitely what I had in mind.

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Old 22-12-2016, 01:20 PM   #34
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Thanks Tom for your great reply, that really added a lot of clarity

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And no problem iamawaveofthesea I appreciated your posts as well. I didn't feel you were saying to not do it.

The composting toilet etc is definitely what I had in mind.
one area i found a bit cloudy when looking into is solar power as it often gets quite technical and you have to buy all the component parts seperately

It seems to be a bit of a niche in the market place where someone could sell solar power packages of pre-made kits with the solar panel and the correct invertor and cables etc

Most people don't want to wade through technical data, they just want to know what size panel they need for their needs and also what kit they need and how to rig it up
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Old 22-12-2016, 01:27 PM   #35
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I notice on the nearest woods to me there are park rangers who go around on bikes. Though they usually ride up and down the path outside of the actual wood area from what I see. There are allotments there too but they are always full.
It is a wood where people regularly walk through, though it would be cool to look to see if there are any patches like the one in that video that people leave alone.
Interesting that the field above the woods is classed as owned by the people of the town as the person who owned it a long time ago gave it to them. Yet of course park rangers wouldn't let you do anything on there so I'm not trying on the field where its obvious.
Tom mentioned neighbours earlier and they can be a problem in terms of blocking planning proposals so its best to try and keep people onside and reassure them that your site will be tidy and not an eyesore as many people are worried about any local developments that can lower the value of their home

It might seem like the countryside is open and anonymous but that's actually not the case. If you want to be anonymous then the city is the place to be! In the countryside everyone knows their patch and everyone around them. they also notice ANYTHING going on around their patch

You could live rough in public woods but its likely someone would notice you before too long so i'd only see that as a temporary option

There is a bit of a scandal in scotland at the moment becasue some of the staff at the amazon depot near dunfermline are apparently living out in the local woods becasue they are not making enough through their wage. A politician is being dispatched no doubt to move them on

An old boy was protesting in recent years and set up a camp on the edge of the A9 living in a tent. The authorities eventually moved him onto housing

The authorities WANT people plugged into the system. they WANT you bound by a mortgage, they WANT you paying for corporate energy, they WANT you dependent on them and their system and they will always resist peoples efforts to try anything different

This means you will need to exercise a fair bit of ingenuity! Planning rules can vary depending on which part of the country you are in for example there are more wooden homes in the highlands then the lowlands
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Old 22-12-2016, 01:32 PM   #36
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I used to be an advocate for the wood burning stove, but my mind has since changed.
''white man builds large fire to keep him warm while looking for wood to burn. Red man builds small fire to keep him warm while he cooks''- old native saying!

Fires eat fuel!
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Old 22-12-2016, 02:37 PM   #37
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Thanks Tom for your great reply, that really added a lot of clarity



one area i found a bit cloudy when looking into is solar power as it often gets quite technical and you have to buy all the component parts seperately

It seems to be a bit of a niche in the market place where someone could sell solar power packages of pre-made kits with the solar panel and the correct invertor and cables etc

Most people don't want to wade through technical data, they just want to know what size panel they need for their needs and also what kit they need and how to rig it up
Oh yeah I know what you mean. All I understand is that you connect them up and they generate your battery. If there was a way to make some way from scratch all yourself I would but that might make things more difficult for now. It would be nice if there were ways that didn't even need a battery or there were batteries that were made naturally but oh well its a small compromise.

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Tom mentioned neighbours earlier and they can be a problem in terms of blocking planning proposals so its best to try and keep people onside and reassure them that your site will be tidy and not an eyesore as many people are worried about any local developments that can lower the value of their home

It might seem like the countryside is open and anonymous but that's actually not the case. If you want to be anonymous then the city is the place to be! In the countryside everyone knows their patch and everyone around them. they also notice ANYTHING going on around their patch

You could live rough in public woods but its likely someone would notice you before too long so i'd only see that as a temporary option

There is a bit of a scandal in scotland at the moment becasue some of the staff at the amazon depot near dunfermline are apparently living out in the local woods becasue they are not making enough through their wage. A politician is being dispatched no doubt to move them on

An old boy was protesting in recent years and set up a camp on the edge of the A9 living in a tent. The authorities eventually moved him onto housing

The authorities WANT people plugged into the system. they WANT you bound by a mortgage, they WANT you paying for corporate energy, they WANT you dependent on them and their system and they will always resist peoples efforts to try anything different

This means you will need to exercise a fair bit of ingenuity! Planning rules can vary depending on which part of the country you are in for example there are more wooden homes in the highlands then the lowlands
Yeah thanks for the insight.
The (council) allotments I was looking at that were available were more inner city. Do you mean more like random patches of city land?
Those allotments of course could be more empty because its less safe in the inner city?
At least that's what keeps being drummed into me. Though I don't want to live in a fear based way and feel that we can create our reality.

The woods I speak of are on the edge of the small town I'm currently in on the way to the city.

What exactly are you counting as city in the way you're talking about?

My woods would be difficult to be annoymous this way perhaps, (so I'm told) because there are people who are passionate about protecting it for everyone's enjoyment blah blah ha ha.

I'm really not actually someone who insists on being totally in a rural area to do what I wanna do. More urban is fine with me as long as perhaps the part I am on is green etc. and therefore feels like a little bit of an escape and I'm not contributing to the negative city aspects.

Yeah that's true I guess it would need to be somewhere that people are not likely to see doing it that way.
And yeah I can see now that that is the exact reason they are against it and I actually find it a source of amusement because you can see through why. And I'm not someone against money or earning it or spending it. Just funny that they have set the system so that the only considered option is working for them. The thing is in my case I couldn't even successfully get a job like that when I was trying, anyway. I started my own thing because I had to try something on my own, partly.

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Old 22-12-2016, 03:12 PM   #38
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Oh yeah I know what you mean. All I understand is that you connect them up and they generate your battery. If there was a way to make some way from scratch all yourself I would but that might make things more difficult for now. It would be nice if there were ways that didn't even need a battery or there were batteries that were made naturally but oh well its a small compromise.
what it needs is for someone to find a cheap source of solar panels and then package kits that say for example ''this package can power a kettle or a laptop''

then you'd get your battery, invertor, cables and panel in the kit. There is also a bit of kit that fits inbetween the inverter and the panel to stop it overloading.

So if all that came in a kit with easy to follow instructions and clear and concise advice about how to position your panels and exactly what appliances you could run of it then it would make it more accessible to people

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Yeah thanks for the insight.
The (council) allotments I was looking at that were available were more inner city. Do you mean more like random patches of city land?
Those allotments of course could be more empty because its less safe in the inner city?
At least that's what keeps being drummed into me. Though I don't want to live in a fear based way and feel that we can create our reality.

The woods I speak of are on the edge of the small town I'm currently in on the way to the city.

What exactly are you counting as city in the way you're talking about?

My woods would be difficult to be annoymous this way perhaps, (so I'm told) because there are people who are passionate about protecting it for everyone's enjoyment blah blah ha ha.

I'm really not actually someone who insists on being totally in a rural area to do what I wanna do. More urban is fine with me as long as perhaps the part I am on is green etc. and therefore feels like a little bit of an escape and I'm not contributing to the negative city aspects.

Yeah that's true I guess it would need to be somewhere that people are not likely to see doing it that way.
And yeah I can see now that that is the exact reason they are against it and I actually find it a source of amusement because you can see through why. And I'm not someone against money or earning it or spending it. Just funny that they have set the system so that the only considered option is working for them. The thing is in my case I couldn't even successfully get a job like that when I was trying, anyway. I started my own thing because I had to try something on my own, partly.
i wasn't necessarily saying to stay in urban areas i was just saying that the UK is heavily managed and every square foot is accounted for practically. Any developments have to go through the planning department and neighbours can block developments and that if you are planning to wild camp you will likely be found before too long and inevitably someone will object to you being there

Better perhaps to look into buying yourself a wee bit of agricultural land. I don't think you need any permissions for a yurt style structure and many people will not find that offencive anyway as a good yurt is an attractive thing

If you keep your plot tidy and avoid late night raves then you aren't giving your neighbours any reason to get pissed off with you and in the countryside neighbours can be very useful as many people do each other favours in the country all the time. One person will tow another out of a snowbank or mud and weeks later the rescued person will lend the other guy a generator for a while or whatever.

Also if you are going to sell excess produce that you grow your neighbours might be potential customers

if you do go down the urban route there are community gardens and sometimes campaigns can encourage local councils to permit new garden spaces to grow up

Some cities are greener then others and roof top gardens are sometimes an option (if only to keep bees on) as well as vertical gardens or even window basket herb gardens

Edinburgh is a very green city and has many old tenement buildings. Round the back is usually a garden behind each tenement but due to modern living where both men and women are working all the time and coming home through rush hour traffic to arrive home tired, garden spaces are often under-used if at all. There are MANY overgrow gardens in edinburgh which are all partitioned by fences and it seems madness that streets don't club together and agree to remove their fences to create large green spaces behind all of their tenement flats

These spaces are often enclosed by buildings and would make a safe space for families and kids where its easy for parents to keep an eye from their kitchen window on their kids and where everyone is able to look down and keep up a neighbourhood watch effect

Those green spaces could then provide a space for kids to play and for people to go out and have a drink in the evening or a barbecue and it would no doubt really help everyone on a street to meet their negihbours and build a community spirit

Instead the land is divided up and allowed to fall into dissuse. The street could all easily agree to pay a small amount into a communal pot each year to pay for the upkeep of a lawnmower to manage the grass and a rota system could be run to then cut it; but oftentimes there would likely be someone happy to do it

Such spaces could also house community gardens and there are some around, but the point i'm trying to make is that there is a lot of land sitting empty just waiting for people to use creatively; its just a case of getting others on board with ideas

There is also a lot of housing sitting empty which the government should be turning into social housing which would not only alleviate homelessness but also provide work for people to carry out the repair work and maintenance

In the meantime though you might be able to squat one! As long as you cause no damage and don't bother anyone around you then what's the harm?
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Old 22-12-2016, 04:17 PM   #39
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I cant disagree with any that has been said.

I would, and will for me when the time comes to use solar, buy the bits and make my own set up! It will be cheaper in the long run if one understands how things work rather than buy ready made.

I am on a windy spot, and when its not windy I would use a small solar.

I would use a small solar for local outsides lights and leccy fencing too.

Go to you tube. Look and learn all that you can, And then look around to see how much your set up will cost. By pretending to buy all the bits, you will learn more than just trying to remember. I use Amazon a lot. I have different wish lists that house things I am not yet ready for. I look at the list every time I buy other things. As I look, I am learning and getting a feel for the price and usage of stuff I think I need.
As I learn on you tube etc, my list might change.
Also, as I learn, my list gets 'tighter'! Out with the chaff. Only needed things rather than that which I thought would be handy.

I am not suggesting you cant learn any other way, but there is a lot to take in at first. Having lists help me at least



There is another way of doing it all too!

It only helps with your accommodation though, and thats to convert a van!

It does not help with the growing though. and when I talked of using a local woods, I was talking of the wood as a commodity.
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Old 22-12-2016, 05:39 PM   #40
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I cant disagree with any that has been said.

I would, and will for me when the time comes to use solar, buy the bits and make my own set up! It will be cheaper in the long run if one understands how things work rather than buy ready made.

I am on a windy spot, and when its not windy I would use a small solar.

I would use a small solar for local outsides lights and leccy fencing too.

Go to you tube. Look and learn all that you can, And then look around to see how much your set up will cost. By pretending to buy all the bits, you will learn more than just trying to remember. I use Amazon a lot. I have different wish lists that house things I am not yet ready for. I look at the list every time I buy other things. As I look, I am learning and getting a feel for the price and usage of stuff I think I need.
As I learn on you tube etc, my list might change.
Also, as I learn, my list gets 'tighter'! Out with the chaff. Only needed things rather than that which I thought would be handy.

I am not suggesting you cant learn any other way, but there is a lot to take in at first. Having lists help me at least



There is another way of doing it all too!

It only helps with your accommodation though, and thats to convert a van!

It does not help with the growing though. and when I talked of using a local woods, I was talking of the wood as a commodity.
I've thought about the van idea and like it. The one or two things that make it not right for me at this moment would be that I need a bit more room to work on things such as music with the equipment I have, and I don't drive so it would have to stay put.

I was most attracted to the idea of a static caravan before and still like them. But of course being on sites, you have to either pay rent like with a flat and only be there 11 months, or buy the caravan (probabaly sometimes for more than a piece of land) and then still have to pay ground rent anyway.

I understand that buying land is the surest way to achieve any of it. And also the legal way technically. The woofing you mention sounds a good idea.
Though I've still got the fantasy/vision of at least trying something now and seeing what happens. Even if it ends up being submitting to an allotment contract and seeing how far I can push the boundaries ha. My thinking was at least with those the rent is very small and nothing like renting a flat or a house. Though I realize I'd be signing a contract and so would not argue to be able to do what I was doing if "caught". Whereas I suppose in theory if just doing it in a random secluded spot where you think you're not likely to be bothered or found there is at least the defense of not having agreed to rules though I still wouldn't bother putting up a big defense or argument unless it was after 4 years or however long til it becomes legal.

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