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Old 15-03-2014, 10:10 PM   #1921
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
LOL!!

epigenetics PROVES MY point.

it is the emerging NEW science that says rationalist science with its theory that we are the PRODUCT OF OUR GENES is utter bollocks!

You clearly have the same ability as Mr Sandwarrior to delude yourself so that your belief system stays in tact!

I love the way you completely ignored my last detailed post because there's no possible way you could debate it without sounding completely stupid.

There is no science that says we are a product of our genes. I have never once said we are a product of our genes and neither has SW. Again, you're making shit up as you go along.

So, your point that epigenetics proves you right is therefore void. Epigenetics are genes activated or deactivated in the environment. Certain environmental conditions trigger certain genes. Again, more evidence free will isn't even an argument, it's impossible.

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Originally Posted by seanx View Post

You are still missing the point we are making here..

They are all designed to get humanity to abdicate this freedom it has and to give up this 'will' to some other external force.

Come on, this stuff is not difficult to understand!
Again... Even though all religions fully support free will you come up with this as a valid argument? I have already explained this in my last post.

I wouldn't insult you as you have tried to insult me, but it's obvious you're the kind of guy who doesn't read much but thinks he knows all the answers.
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Old 15-03-2014, 10:13 PM   #1922
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
LOL!!

I CAN'T make these points any clearer.

The fact that you can't comprehend them is not my problem.

Weren't these ideas included in your open-university course?
You didn't make a single point!!!!!!!!!!!!! You ignored everything that was said. All of the questions I put to you (only two or three) you ignored!!

All you did do was try to insult me. The easiest escape route for someone who can't debate certain points.
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Old 15-03-2014, 10:27 PM   #1923
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Originally Posted by picklez01 View Post
You didn't make a single point!!!!!!!!!!!!! You ignored everything that was said. All of the questions I put to you (only two or three) you ignored!!

All you did do was try to insult me. The easiest escape route for someone who can't debate certain points.
Sorry, but this is not a sociology forum......where we debate all these dreary ideas that have been debated to death.

You start off insulting by declaring in your arrogance that I had never heard of epigenetics - when I have posted on this topic in this forum a number of times.

So for at start, I don't waste time debating with arrogant twats.

Quote:
Your problem is that you identify your Self as your personality.......but that 'personality' of course has no power to control and
direct it's life.

But when you start to 'wake' up and start to identify your self with your larger state of consciousness or infinite self.....or that state
that is ALL POSSIBILITY, then freewill then becomes a real active force in deciding how you want to experience this game of consciousness
[/QUOTE]

Your answer is there. But it ain't my problem if it is outside your beliefs structures.
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Old 15-03-2014, 10:31 PM   #1924
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Originally Posted by picklez01 View Post
I love the way you completely ignored my last detailed post because there's no possible way you could debate it without sounding completely stupid.

There is no science that says we are a product of our genes. I have never once said we are a product of our genes and neither has SW. Again, you're making shit up as you go along.

So, your point that epigenetics proves you right is therefore void. Epigenetics are genes activated or deactivated in the environment. Certain environmental conditions trigger certain genes. Again, more evidence free will isn't even an argument, it's impossible.


.
So modern day science does not suggest that we are the product of our genes???

it does not say that we are mere chemical machines where consciousness is an illusion and a mere by-product of our brains.

It is obvious from your posts that you are an arrogant prat..........but clearly not a very bright one if you believe science does not hold these beliefs.
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Old 15-03-2014, 10:36 PM   #1925
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
Sorry, but this is not a sociology forum......where we debate all these dreary ideas that have been debated to death.

You start off insulting by declaring in your arrogance that I had never heard of epigenetics - when I have posted on this topic in this forum a number of times.

So for at start, I don't waste time debating with arrogant twats.
Your answer is there. But it ain't my problem if it is outside your beliefs structures.[/QUOTE]

More escapism. Maybe you should join a different debate if you're finding this too intellectually challenging. If you make a point, I debate it, then you in turn just insult me and go off on tangents without replying to anything, we can't get anywhere.



Oh FYI, stop thinking in terms of boxes. As though it could be only "genes" or, only "environment", or only "biology". It is determined by many factors, heck, even your mum's diet during pregnancy can be a factor. This was proved after the dutch hunger winter.

Last edited by picklez01; 15-03-2014 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 15-03-2014, 11:11 PM   #1926
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=picklez01;1062029067]Your answer is there. But it ain't my problem if it is outside your beliefs structures.

More escapism. Maybe you should join a different debate if you're finding this too intellectually challenging. If you make a point, I debate it, then you in turn just insult me and go off on tangents without replying to anything, we can't get anywhere.



Oh FYI, stop thinking in terms of boxes. As though it could be only "genes" or, only "environment", or only "biology". It is determined by many factors, heck, even your mum's diet during pregnancy can be a factor. This was proved after the dutch hunger winter.
Y

You are clearly confused on whose forum you are on.

I come here to discuss ideas from this perspective - not to be bored to death discussing ideas from some out-of-date
sociological perspective.

Again, the answer is there - it is not my problem that you can't understand it.

Last edited by seanx; 15-03-2014 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 16-03-2014, 12:25 AM   #1927
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Originally Posted by seanx View Post
So modern day science does not suggest that we are the product of our genes???

it does not say that we are mere chemical machines where consciousness is an illusion and a mere by-product of our brains.

It is obvious from your posts that you are an arrogant prat..........but clearly not a very bright one if you believe science does not hold these beliefs.
LOL
I think we are the product of our genes to a certain extent but as you know, genes could be 'awaken/triggered' by external factors e.g. environment, food we eat, chemicals etc

Nobody has yet to suggest this but if we have conscious and higher conscious a.k.a higher self, then you could say that the higher self has freewill whereas conscious has to do whatever higher self tells us. So in this way, you have both fate and freewill at work. Both conscious and higher conscious are 'you' after all.
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Old 16-03-2014, 12:41 AM   #1928
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Originally Posted by elshaper View Post
LOL
I think we are the product of our genes to a certain extent but as you know, genes could be 'awaken/triggered' by external factors e.g. environment, food we eat, chemicals etc

Nobody has yet to suggest this but if we have conscious and higher conscious a.k.a higher self, then you could say that the higher self has freewill whereas conscious has to do whatever higher self tells us. So in this way, you have both fate and freewill at work. Both conscious and higher conscious are 'you' after all.
I think that is a good point.

I think as we learn to identify with different levels of ourselves....from the basic personality self.............to the higher levels of our awareness,
the question changes and the possibilities increase and multiply for more conscious free-will choices.

Last edited by seanx; 16-03-2014 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 16-03-2014, 12:55 AM   #1929
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Y

You are clearly confused on whose forum you are on.

I come here to discuss ideas from this perspective - not to be bored to death discussing ideas from some out-of-date
sociological perspective.

Again, the answer is there - it is not my problem that you can't understand it.
No one perspective can be understood individually in terms of behaviour that's the point.

Unless you mean free will itself, and then absolutely everything else is irrelevant because apparently people make decisions not influenced by anything else.
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Old 16-03-2014, 01:03 AM   #1930
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No one perspective can be understood individually in terms of behaviour that's the point.

Unless you mean free will itself, and then absolutely everything else is irrelevant because apparently people make decisions not influenced by anything else.
Just because someone else can exercise their free will, which can affect you, doesn't directly equate to the proof of fate theory though.
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Old 16-03-2014, 01:45 AM   #1931
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Just because someone else can exercise their free will, which can affect you, doesn't directly equate to the proof of fate theory though.
As I have said many, many times in this thread... If free will were real levels of violence globally would be generally the same...

The fact that levels of violence are incredibly different all over the world, which can be traced to environmental factors is proof to me.

If free will were real, environment would be pretty irrelevant in terms of violence, depression, murder, etc. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Do you not consider that as proof?


If you want a clean, healthy, happy society you need a certain environment to create that. No amount of prisons is ever going to make a better world. In many ways, more prisons is just making a worse society.

Congo probably has a lot more prisons than Scandinavia.

Last edited by picklez01; 16-03-2014 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 16-03-2014, 03:21 AM   #1932
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I misquoted nothing. You stated that this creator/programmer are separate from the creation/programme.

If I wrote a basic computer programme, that programme would intrinsically be me, from my imagination. But the programme and programmer are for sure separate.

Your claim of perfect unity, it therefore untrue.
I see no separation between the programmer and his programme, at all.

The Programme IS the programmer.

Yet I feel you see separation everywhere.
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Old 16-03-2014, 03:27 AM   #1933
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanx View Post

So science tells us we have free will??

Is this the same science that tells us our genes control everything??

He seems you very badly need to delude yourself!
You seem to be missing the point.

We are taught that from a very young age that we have free will.

Our whole system relies on the belief that we have free will.

If you delve into the scientific community then you will find some of the scientists telling us that we don't have free will, which is of course the truth.


Quote:
You still CAN'T understand this.

All of these fake religions are designed to destroy freewill and get you to do God'will or the will of Allay.

'NOT my will be done but THINE!'.

You have never heard of that?

Never?

Again, I have answered this point already.

Religion relies 100% on the notion of free will ,if you choose to do bad things then you will go to hell.

How would you suggest a god punish somebody if he made them do it?

Again, your line of questioning shows a shallow understanding of the issue.


Quote:
Despite the fact that he SAYS the opposite!!

Unless you make the unconscious conscious............etc....you will call it FATE!!

He doesn't say the opposite, its just that your perception wont let you see it.
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Old 16-03-2014, 03:56 AM   #1934
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Originally Posted by elshaper View Post
LOL
I think we are the product of our genes to a certain extent but as you know, genes could be 'awaken/triggered' by external factors e.g. environment, food we eat, chemicals etc

Nobody has yet to suggest this but if we have conscious and higher conscious a.k.a higher self, then you could say that the higher self has freewill whereas conscious has to do whatever higher self tells us. So in this way, you have both fate and freewill at work. Both conscious and higher conscious are 'you' after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanx View Post
I think that is a good point.

I think as we learn to identify with different levels of ourselves....from the basic personality self.............to the higher levels of our awareness,
the question changes and the possibilities increase and multiply for more conscious free-will choices.
You both appear to be coming around to my way of thinking

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=639

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...9&postcount=93

Yes, free will probably exists at the highest, soul level of awareness but right here and now it doesn't, as we are constrained by the laws of this realm. Once our soul is free of this realm, it fits.

The unconscious, becoming conscious
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

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Last edited by sandwarrior; 16-03-2014 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 16-03-2014, 04:08 AM   #1935
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Originally Posted by oakwise View Post
And there are no exceptions?
I presume your questions are loaded, so I will try and pre-empt you, if you don't mind.

It would seem your sprung question is going to be that if everything is opposite, then the lack of free wills opposite is actually free will?

And conceptually you would be right, it is easy to discuss free will and what would be required for it to be feasible, I have even said that at the highest evolution then free will probably exists, that in no way means that we have free will.

So, the hermetic law of polarity is still intact, we don't have free will but on a higher scale free will exists.

If that wasn't your loaded question then please present it.
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Old 16-03-2014, 04:22 AM   #1936
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Originally Posted by elshaper View Post
LOL
I think we are the product of our genes to a certain extent but as you know, genes could be 'awaken/triggered' by external factors e.g. environment, food we eat, chemicals etc

Nobody has yet to suggest this but if we have conscious and higher conscious a.k.a higher self, then you could say that the higher self has freewill whereas conscious has to do whatever higher self tells us. So in this way, you have both fate and freewill at work. Both conscious and higher conscious are 'you' after all.
This could be quite close to the truth actually.
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Old 16-03-2014, 04:23 AM   #1937
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
You both appear to be coming around to my way of thinking

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=639

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...9&postcount=93

Yes, free will probably exists at the highest, soul level of awareness but right here and now it doesn't, as we are constrained by the laws of this realm. Once our soul is free of this realm, it fits.

The unconscious, becoming conscious
I might be getting ahead of things, but if this is some form of synthesis in a very very long and deep thread that is slightly exciting!
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Old 16-03-2014, 05:01 AM   #1938
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I might be getting ahead of things, but if this is some form of synthesis in a very very long and deep thread that is slightly exciting!
I have pointed out the fact that the two theories have very close similarities before but because there is a mental block to the idea that we, as an ego entity do not have free will, it is impossible for them to see it.

A bit like the story of the Native Indians that were unable to see the Ships of the European explorers as they had no perception of ships, they had perceptual blindness.

Quote:
Are people blind to unexplained phenomena because their brains simply can’t handle anything they don’t understand?
http://www.forteantimes.com/stranged...blindness.html
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Old 16-03-2014, 05:39 AM   #1939
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A question to all that believe that we have free will:

How do you rationalise the seeming randomness with which events seem to happen.

The child who gets cancer, The car crash, the lottery win etc etc
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

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Last edited by sandwarrior; 16-03-2014 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 16-03-2014, 08:13 AM   #1940
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I see no separation between the programmer and his programme, at all.

The Programme IS the programmer.

Yet I feel you see separation everywhere.
So you were lying when you said, quote, 'The creator is the computer programmer and as such is separate from the creation/programme.....?

If as you claim I've misquoted you then explain how so.
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