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Old 18-11-2014, 06:43 AM   #3721
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No

Please tell me how you can go left, when god always knew you were going to go right.
Because there's multiple universes and multiple time-lines...

I love not having any dogmatic views restraining me. I'm free.....
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Old 18-11-2014, 06:49 AM   #3722
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I'll admit that feelings are caused, but not constrained..

How can you constrain the utter helplessness, and joy, and sadness, and fear, and every other feeling and emotion that falling in love brings?

How is that constrained?

I think the difference between you and I besides the obvious is this. You believe we have a choice, but it's not free. I believe everything is caused yet we can still get to make a free choice.....sometimes.

Thing is Sandy, one of these ideas creates an empowered human being, the other runs the risk of getting rolled over...
I didn't say that I could constrain them, I said they are constrained.

Feelings can be constrained by sleep as a simple example, or alcohol, or drugs, or a bang on the head, or death or whatever, feelings can most definitely be constrained, it seems obvious to me.

And I would beg to differ massively.

The facts prove that most people who intrinsically believe in free will, feel helpless in the main, just look at society, all of those people taking free will for granted, feeling absolutely helpless against the seeming unfairness of life.

Whilst me on the other hand feel totally empowered with the knowledge that it isn't all about me, that there is definitely a bigger meaning to all of this and no matter what happens, everything will be ok and is happening in exactly the way it should be
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

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Old 18-11-2014, 06:51 AM   #3723
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Because there's multiple universes and multiple time-lines...

I love not having any dogmatic views restraining me. I'm free.....
lol another philosophy.

A right jumble you have going on there

So in your head you went right and left and stood still and god knew all of those junctures.

Which one is your soul occupying then? Right, left or standing?

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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.

Last edited by sandwarrior; 18-11-2014 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:00 AM   #3724
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The bit in bold introduces a paradox to gods will, which I haven't been able to solve.

God allegedly knows everything that will happen, he knows every hair on our head, for example.

So he must know who is going to become enlightened and who isn't, from the dawn of time.

That being the case, how can i use my free will to become enlightened, if I was never going to become enlightened?

You see the problem? If God "knows" what is going to happen, how can we deviate from the plan?
It's only a paradox if you believe that not all of us are going to become enlightened.

So God knows, that's not the same as Gods will. See?

God knows that one day, one very, very sunny day, the last human being shall become enlightened.... How, and when, and where this happens is entirely up to us.

Free will and an all knowing God is not a paradox.

Is that straight enough for you?
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:08 AM   #3725
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I didn't say that I could constrain them, I said they are constrained.

Feelings can be constrained by sleep as a simple example, or alcohol, or drugs, or a bang on the head, or death or whatever, feelings can most definitely be constrained, it seems obvious to me.

And I would beg to differ massively.

The facts prove that most people who intrinsically believe in free will, feel helpless in the main, just look at society, all of those people taking free will for granted, feeling absolutely helpless against the seeming unfairness of life.

Whilst me on the other hand feel totally empowered with the knowledge that it isn't all about me, that there is definitely a bigger meaning to all of this and no matter what happens, everything will be ok and is happening in exactly the way it should be
If the majority of people in society feel helpless its because they have yet to fully awaken to their own power.

A simple understanding of cause and effect would change everything.

People need to know that when this happens, that happens. And when this stops, that stops.

Armed with this knowledge, fortified with love and compassion, we can all start to make wise choices in our everyday lives for the benefit of one an all.

It ain't rocket science, just a matter of choice. Peace.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:24 AM   #3726
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It's only a paradox if you believe that not all of us are going to become enlightened.

So God knows, that's not the same as Gods will. See?

God knows that one day, one very, very sunny day, the last human being shall become enlightened.... How, and when, and where this happens is entirely up to us.

Free will and an all knowing God is not a paradox.

Is that straight enough for you?
NO

You are not answering the paradox.

How can you go right when god always knew you were going to go left.

Why do you keep ignoring it?
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


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Old 18-11-2014, 07:26 AM   #3727
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If the majority of people in society feel helpless its because they have yet to fully awaken to their own power.

A simple understanding of cause and effect would change everything.

People need to know that when this happens, that happens. And when this stops, that stops.

Armed with this knowledge, fortified with love and compassion, we can all start to make wise choices in our everyday lives for the benefit of one an all.

It ain't rocket science, just a matter of choice. Peace.
You are correct, a simple understanding of cause and effect would lead them to the conclusion that life is pre-determined and hence they have no free will.



I have absolutely no idea how you clarify the two in your mind.

Please give one example of anything that isn't caused, a thought, anything.

For free will demands that one simple criteria.

If you cant then you are just accepting comfort thoughts.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:31 AM   #3728
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NO

You are not answering the paradox.

How can you go right when god always knew you were going to go left.

Why do you keep ignoring it?
God knowing something isn't the same as God willing something.

God can know everything and still we have free will.

Why are you ignoring this?
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:35 AM   #3729
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God knowing something isn't the same as God willing something.

God can know everything and still we have free will.

Why are you ignoring this?
I am not ignoring it, you are still not understanding it.

Stop and think about it for a second.

The paradox is there because it implies that you can do something different to what god knows you will do.

God knew that you would go left from the dawn of time, but you eventually get there and go right.

It is a massive glaring paradox, it implies you have the will to do something different to what god knows, it implies infallibility in god and gives you free will to do as you please, regardless of what god knew you would do.

you see it yet?
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


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Old 18-11-2014, 07:42 AM   #3730
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You are correct, a simple understanding of cause and effect would lead them to the conclusion that life is pre-determined and hence they have no free will.



I have absolutely no idea how you clarify the two in your mind.

Please give one example of anything that isn't caused, a thought, anything.

For free will demands that one simple criteria.

If you cant then you are just accepting comfort thoughts.
Yes I can see that you have no idea....even when I've explained myself several times.

I'm hungry, I get to choose what to eat. Knowing cause and effect I would eat something healthy.

Even when we are caused to do something, we still have a choice. A choice based on compassion, sound reason, logic, feelings and past experience will create an harmonious outcome.

Those people who just blindly follow dogma for example, end up bombing children....in Gaza.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:50 AM   #3731
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Yes I can see that you have no idea....even when I've explained myself several times.
Saying god can know something and we still have free will isn't explaining something!.

No matter how many times you say it

You have ignored a whole raft of questions and I don't blame you, they are very difficult to answer with any conviction.

Quote:
I'm hungry, I get to choose what to eat. Knowing cause and effect I would eat something healthy.
No you don't, you can only eat what you have, what you like, what is the the cupboard etc etc etc, you are limited massively to what you can eat. Your choice is totally limited. And to what you do have, you will choose what you fancy, depending sub consciously what your body needs, if it needs sugar, you may choose ice cream for example, if you need salt you may choose feta and olives, or whatever, your free choice is limited by biology, circumstance, environment, just like everything else

Quote:
Even when we are caused to do something, we still have a choice. A choice based on compassion, sound reason, logic, feelings and past experience will create an harmonious outcome.
You don't, your choice will be the sum total of your experience up until that point, it can be no other way.

Quote:
Those people who just blindly follow dogma for example, end up bombing children....in Gaza.
But they believe they are doing it of their own free will.

99% of people believe they possess it
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:55 AM   #3732
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I am not ignoring it, you are still not understanding it.

Stop and think about it for a second.

The paradox is there because it implies that you can do something different to what god knows you will do.

God knew that you would go left from the dawn of time, but you eventually get there and go right.

It is a massive glaring paradox, it implies you have the will to do something different to what god knows, it implies infallibility in god and gives you free will to do as you please, regardless of what god knew you would do.

you see it yet?
God knowing, and Gods will are two different things. Do you understand this much?

Having free will does not exclude Gods knowing.

God knows, but we don't.

We couldn't go against Gods will, fair enough, but God knowing which way we are going to turn doesn't mean that we do, or that we don't have a free choice in that moment.
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Old 18-11-2014, 07:59 AM   #3733
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God knowing, and Gods will are two different things. Do you understand this much?

Having free will does not exclude Gods knowing.

God knows, but we don't.

We couldn't go against Gods will, fair enough, but God knowing which way we are going to turn doesn't mean that we do, or that we don't have a free choice in that moment.
Of course it does, it means exactly that!

If god knows we are going to turn left and always were going to turn left.

We can't use our free will to go right!
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 18-11-2014, 08:02 AM   #3734
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But they believe they are doing it of their own free will.

99% of people believe they possess it
But they are not exercising their free will, that's just the point. They are dogmatic, believing that they are doing Gods work.

If they truley understood cause and effect, then they wouldn't be bombing anyone, creating unprecidented levels of hatred towards themselves.

That's idiotic, there's nothing free about it..
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Old 18-11-2014, 08:09 AM   #3735
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But they are not exercising their free will, that's just the point. They are dogmatic, believing that they are doing Gods work.

If they truley understood cause and effect, then they wouldn't be bombing anyone, creating unprecidented levels of hatred towards themselves.

That's idiotic, there's nothing free about it..
I know they are not, as they don't possess it

The bolded bit is exactly what I have been saying all through this thread!

But you cannot use it in the same sentence as free will because the idea of free will negates cause and effect 100%, for if a will is free, it isn't constrained by cause and effect.

You cannot have it both ways.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


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Old 19-11-2014, 08:17 AM   #3736
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Of course it does, it means exactly that!

If god knows we are going to turn left and always were going to turn left.

We can't use our free will to go right!
God knowing something, and God willing something are two different things..

Yes or no?
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Old 19-11-2014, 08:31 AM   #3737
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God knowing something, and God willing something are two different things..

Yes or no?
No,

Are you really saying that god can will something and you can go against gods will?

Of course you are, you are saying that you have free will.

In your opinion,your will is more powerful than gods, right?

God can will you to go left, but you say no, I am going right, reducing god to a bit of an imbecile.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 19-11-2014, 08:42 AM   #3738
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No,

Are you really saying that god can will something and you can go against gods will?

Of course you are, you are saying that you have free will.

In your opinion,your will is more powerful than gods, right?

God can will you to go left, but you say no, I am going right, reducing god to a bit of an imbecile.
No offence, but this is a poor reply that completely avoids my simple question.

No, I'm not saying we can go against Gods will! Where did I state that?

You state that because God knows everything, we don't have free will, that's not the same thing.

So Sandy, let's try again.

Is God knowing something the same as God willing something, yes or no?

And I've never, ever, ever, stated that my will is more powerful than Gods.

Last edited by neilbe; 19-11-2014 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 19-11-2014, 08:47 AM   #3739
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No offence, but this is a poor reply that completely avoids my simple question.

No, I'm not saying we can go against Gods will! Where did I state that?

You state that because God knows everything, we don't have free will, that's not the same thing.

So Sandy, let's try again.

Is God knowing something the same as God willing something, yes or no?

And I've never, every, every, stated that my will is more powerful than Gods.
I answered your question, yes, they are the same, there is no difference.

If god knows that we were always going to go right, we cant use free will to go left.

I am answering your question, god knowing something and god willing it are the same thing, if we accept that god has a will, which I both think that we do, right?

What exactly are you proposing?

Can you use your free will to go right, when god always knew you would go left?

I have answered your question, maybe you could answer mine now?
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.

Last edited by sandwarrior; 19-11-2014 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 19-11-2014, 09:04 AM   #3740
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I answered your question, yes, they are the same, there is no difference.

If god knows that we were always going to go right, we cant use free will to go left.

I am answering your question, god knowing something and god willing it are the same thing, if we accept that god has a will, which I both think that we do, right?

What exactly are you proposing?

Can you use your free will to go right, when god always knew you would go left?

I have answered your question, maybe you could answer mine now?

To know something doesn't invole or imply any force.

To will something implies force.

If there is no force involved then we are by definicion free to make a choice. Just because God knows everything that's going to happen, doesn't mean that we do. Or are you saying that you are just as powerful as God?
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