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Old 07-11-2008, 02:57 PM   #21
eastbeast
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Depend very much on the reason for doing it. There are legal routes to removing assets from criminal organisations in this country and in many others. If your reason is that you believe the assets to have been gained unfairly then go for it. You may need some proof.

Grand idea, it is possible legally to do this privately, but of course the Judiciary are all Freemasons so...........

Maybe with the assistance of the Fraud Squad........oh no that won't work either........

Ah got it. The Newspapers........no silly me.......

Well I'm out of ideas........But then I don't care so....
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Old 07-11-2008, 03:02 PM   #22
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The "Grand Lodge of All England" is a new group, formed by a few folks who left the United Grand Lodge of England because they disagreed with something in the UGLE. It's not ancient, and is not recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization.

But then again, a lot of new unrecognized groups have been popping up lately, mostly in protest against the Masonic status quo. The Grand Orient of the United States is a good example here in the USA.

And Freemasonry is essentially religious. Without its religious basis, it would be a sham.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:36 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by thelonious View Post
The "Grand Lodge of All England" is a new group, formed by a few folks who left the United Grand Lodge of England because they disagreed with something in the UGLE. It's not ancient, and is not recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization.

But then again, a lot of new unrecognized groups have been popping up lately, mostly in protest against the Masonic status quo. The Grand Orient of the United States is a good example here in the USA.

And Freemasonry is essentially religious. Without its religious basis, it would be a sham.
It is NOT a new group

"1,079 years after King Athelstan granted the Charter of York to the Masons of England, the Assembly of Masons meets in Mason's Loft, York Minster, the cradle of Freemasonry, and reclaims Anglo-Saxon Freemasonry to its rightful custodians according to English Law.
A date is set to meet in Convocation to restore The Grand Lodge of All England by an act of constitutional restitution.
This to take place strictly in accordance with the terms of the Charter of York, the pure and original "Constitutions of Masonrie", and to continue the working traditions of the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Freemasons meeting at York since Time Immemorial.

The Grand Lodge of All England is re-established as the most ancient, and regularly Chartered Grand Lodge in accordance with English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practise and tradition, the Ancient Landmarks, Charges, and Regulations of a Freemason."
and who says it is not "recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization. ??"
Just who sets that mark??

Last edited by banoyes; 07-11-2008 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 07-11-2008, 06:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by thelonious View Post
The "Grand Lodge of All England" is a new group, formed by a few folks who left the United Grand Lodge of England because they disagreed with something in the UGLE. It's not ancient, and is not recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization.

But then again, a lot of new unrecognized groups have been popping up lately, mostly in protest against the Masonic status quo. The Grand Orient of the United States is a good example here in the USA.

And Freemasonry is essentially religious. Without its religious basis, it would be a sham.
thelonious I havn't heard from you in while. Welcome back.

Oh and well said.
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Old 07-11-2008, 07:29 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by banoyes View Post
It is NOT a new group

"1,079 years after King Athelstan granted the Charter of York to the Masons of England, the Assembly of Masons meets in Mason's Loft, York Minster, the cradle of Freemasonry, and reclaims Anglo-Saxon Freemasonry to its rightful custodians according to English Law.
A date is set to meet in Convocation to restore The Grand Lodge of All England by an act of constitutional restitution.
This to take place strictly in accordance with the terms of the Charter of York, the pure and original "Constitutions of Masonrie", and to continue the working traditions of the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Freemasons meeting at York since Time Immemorial.

The Grand Lodge of All England is re-established as the most ancient, and regularly Chartered Grand Lodge in accordance with English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practise and tradition, the Ancient Landmarks, Charges, and Regulations of a Freemason."
and who says it is not "recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization. ??"
Just who sets that mark??
Ok maybe there is an ancient order called "The Grand Lodge of All England".
I am not sure if there was or wasn't (a can not be bothered to find out) - but for sake of argument let say there was - I will give you that.

The OLD group stopped meeting, it was disbanded - it "went dark" (to use a masonic term).

Now the CURRENT group calling themselves "The Grand Lodge of All England" is trying to "restore" or "re-established" the old group. The CURRENT group is connected to the old group by name only.

There is no continuity of work to inform the CURRENT group with the methods, rituals of the OLD group. The modern version is trying to give itself legitimacy by inventing a history - that is all.
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:52 PM   #26
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Ok maybe there is an ancient order called "The Grand Lodge of All England".
I am not sure if there was or wasn't (a can not be bothered to find out) - but for sake of argument let say there was - I will give you that.

The OLD group stopped meeting, it was disbanded - it "went dark" (to use a masonic term).

Now the CURRENT group calling themselves "The Grand Lodge of All England" is trying to "restore" or "re-established" the old group. The CURRENT group is connected to the old group by name only.

There is no continuity of work to inform the CURRENT group with the methods, rituals of the OLD group. The modern version is trying to give itself legitimacy by inventing a history - that is all.
did you read this
reclaims Anglo-Saxon Freemasonry to its rightful custodians according to English Law.
apparently all ligit
"The Grand Lodge of All England is re-established
say re-established not newly established
"as the most ancient, and regularly Chartered Grand Lodge in accordance with English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practise and tradition, the Ancient Landmarks, Charges, and Regulations of a Freemason."
seems they met all the "laws" whatever the hell that means
It went "underground" for a long time ,no doubt
but
who says it is not "recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization. ??"
Just who sets that mark??
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Old 08-11-2008, 03:16 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by banoyes View Post
did you read this
reclaims Anglo-Saxon Freemasonry to its rightful custodians according to English Law.
apparently all ligit
"The Grand Lodge of All England is re-established
say re-established not newly established
"as the most ancient, and regularly Chartered Grand Lodge in accordance with English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practise and tradition, the Ancient Landmarks, Charges, and Regulations of a Freemason."
seems they met all the "laws" whatever the hell that means
It went "underground" for a long time ,no doubt
but
who says it is not "recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization. ??"
Just who sets that mark??
If I went out and started an organization called the Bavarian Illuminati, would that prove that the Bavarian Illuminati has been in operation up to the current day?

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Old 08-11-2008, 04:07 AM   #28
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If I went out and started an organization called the Bavarian Illuminati, would that prove that the Bavarian Illuminati has been in operation up to the current day?
Why not just stick with what IS
They are as legit as any other of the cults Lodges
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:08 PM   #29
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It is NOT a new group

"1,079 years after King Athelstan granted the Charter of York to the Masons of England, the Assembly of Masons meets in Mason's Loft, York Minster, the cradle of Freemasonry, and reclaims Anglo-Saxon Freemasonry to its rightful custodians according to English Law.
A date is set to meet in Convocation to restore The Grand Lodge of All England by an act of constitutional restitution.
This to take place strictly in accordance with the terms of the Charter of York, the pure and original "Constitutions of Masonrie", and to continue the working traditions of the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Freemasons meeting at York since Time Immemorial.

The Grand Lodge of All England is re-established as the most ancient, and regularly Chartered Grand Lodge in accordance with English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practise and tradition, the Ancient Landmarks, Charges, and Regulations of a Freemason."
and who says it is not "recognized as a legitimate Masonic organization. ??"
Just who sets that mark??
LOL at banoyes. Who now knows all about what makes a recognised Masonic group.

Mike
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:25 PM   #30
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LOL at banoyes. Who now knows all about what makes a recognised Masonic group.

Mike
Simple
I do not know
or I would not have asked
NOW
What brand of Masonry do you practice?
What makes a recognised Masonic group.?
Who decides that?
As this has been ignored in the past
I do not expect an answer
guess Mikes word is good enuff
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Old 08-11-2008, 04:30 PM   #31
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I guess all of you European FMasons have met Leo Zagami there
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Old 08-11-2008, 05:08 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by banoyes View Post
Simple
I do not know
or I would not have asked
NOW
What brand of Masonry do you practice?
What makes a recognised Masonic group.?
Who decides that?
As this has been ignored in the past
I do not expect an answer
guess Mikes word is good enuff
I am a member of several Lodges under the United Grand Lodge of England (that's the one that goes back to 1717)> I am a Past Master of one of them, I am also, amongst other things, a Royal Arch Mason.

That is also the one that everyone talks about, you know, 300,000 members and 8000 lodges. The GLAE has about 8 Lodges and no one knows how many members, cos they won't tell anyone but probably a couple of hundred.

Regularity is often decided by the first Grand Lodge, in this case the UGLE.

Just to correct what you have read so far, the Grand Lodge of All England only called itself that in 1725 as a tit for tat reaction to the Grand Lodge of England (1717). Before that time it was known as the Old Lodge at York and had once been a totally operative (Stonemasons rather than Freemasons) Lodge.

The present GLAE only dates back to 2005, despite what claims it makes. It's founders claimed to have "reponed" it under Scottish Masonic Law, unfortunatley under Scottish Masonic Law there has to b a surviving member of a body to repone it and the GLAE ceased operation in 1792. the last remaining Lodges under the GLAE joined the Grand Ldge of England.

It is quite funny that it claims to be "Antient" Masonry because the United Grand Lodge of Engand includes the Antient Grand Lodge of England, that is why it is called "united", they combined in 1813.

Mike
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Old 08-11-2008, 05:09 PM   #33
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I guess all of you European FMasons have met Leo Zagami there
Met no. Know of yes.

He wasn't a Mason long enough to have met him, he managed to remain a member for nearly a year before he was expelled for bringing Freemasonry into disrepute.

Mike
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Old 08-11-2008, 05:19 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mike martin View Post
I am a member of several Lodges under the United Grand Lodge of England (that's the one that goes back to 1717)> I am a Past Master of one of them, I am also, amongst other things, a Royal Arch Mason.

That is also the one that everyone talks about, you know, 300,000 members and 8000 lodges. The GLAE has about 8 Lodges and no one knows how many members, cos they won't tell anyone but probably a couple of hundred.

Regularity is often decided by the first Grand Lodge, in this case the UGLE.

Just to correct what you have read so far, the Grand Lodge of All England only called itself that in 1725 as a tit for tat reaction to the Grand Lodge of England (1717). Before that time it was known as the Old Lodge at York and had once been a totally operative (Stonemasons rather than Freemasons) Lodge.

The present GLAE only dates back to 2005, despite what claims it makes. It's founders claimed to have "reponed" it under Scottish Masonic Law, unfortunatley under Scottish Masonic Law there has to b a surviving member of a body to repone it and the GLAE ceased operation in 1792. the last remaining Lodges under the GLAE joined the Grand Ldge of England.

It is quite funny that it claims to be "Antient" Masonry because the United Grand Lodge of Engand includes the Antient Grand Lodge of England, that is why it is called "united", they combined in 1813.

Mike
Still no answer
just a bunch of words to distract
What brand masonry do you practice?? geezzee how simple is that
Scottish Rite, York Rite
you said neither so
What brand Masonry do you practice.. crimminy
and still no answer
who decides what is recognized.
go ahead post a bunch of meaningless words again
you may fool someone
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Old 08-11-2008, 06:51 PM   #35
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Still no answer
just a bunch of words to distract
What brand masonry do you practice?? geezzee how simple is that
Scottish Rite, York Rite
you said neither so
What brand Masonry do you practice.. crimminy
and still no answer
who decides what is recognized.
go ahead post a bunch of meaningless words again
you may fool someone
I've already told you once, we do not have either the York or Scottish Rites in England

Mike

Last edited by strt; 08-11-2008 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 08-11-2008, 08:40 PM   #36
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I've already told you once, we do not have either the York or Scottish Rites in England

Mike
Well
guess you just ain't gonna answer
no surprise
here's the question
What brand of freemasonry do you practice
here's the answer
"we do not have either the York or Scottish Rites in England"
Must be some kind of Mason answer
answer without answering

Question 2
Who decides what is a recognized Lodge
answer???
none
.. maybe they make it up as they go along
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:16 PM   #37
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I've already told you once, we do not have either the York or Scottish Rites in England

Mike
I really feel you're doing yourself a dis-service here. Such totally blatant avoidance of the question asked is worthy of Newsnight!

C'mon Mike - answer the man and stop playing games - there are enough people on this forum who will automatically distrust you as it is.

I thought you were here for open and honest discussion about freemasonry? To help dissuade others that you were lying, deceitful types. Now I know you didn't just lie, but it was a dishonest answer.
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:16 AM   #38
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I really feel you're doing yourself a dis-service here. Such totally blatant avoidance of the question asked is worthy of Newsnight!

C'mon Mike - answer the man and stop playing games - there are enough people on this forum who will automatically distrust you as it is.

I thought you were here for open and honest discussion about freemasonry? To help dissuade others that you were lying, deceitful types. Now I know you didn't just lie, but it was a dishonest answer.
Hmmm, interesting point and causes me a quandry!

I pride myself on the fact that I do not lie! To answer banoye's question in another way would be to tell a lie.

As I responded to him when he told me that I must be "York Rite" because of my view on Pike

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Originally Posted by mike martin View Post

Here in England the home of both Freemasonry and the mother Grand Lodge of the World there is neither York or Scottish Rite.

Work that one out>

In the US they have decided to join together various Appendant Degrees and give them a name, it is the York Rite. The Scottish Rite is a French creation of degrees that run in order. They contain similar themes but they are not connected.

Maybe I should explain more

In England, we have the Ancient & Accepted Rite, it is different from the Scottish Rite although it does have 33 Degrees but its Rituals are different and it is a specificaly Christian Order, SR is open to all whereas to join A&AR you have to hold the Trinitarian Christian faith. To join the Scottish Rite I would have to go to America.

The York Rite does not exist here, although those degrees do (obviously) they have not been joined together to form some kind of continous line of Degrees. It's an American thing and to join it (like the SR) I would have to go to America.

It is a point I have tried to highlight many times Freemasonry is not one organsiation spread around the World, it is made up of many different bodies practising the same basic thing but it is by no means the same. This was highlighted for me a couple of months ago at a meeting which had visitors from Italy and America, their signs (secrets), the way we prove ourselves to be Masons in the Lodge, are different to ours.


Mike
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Old 09-11-2008, 11:32 AM   #39
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Thank you for replying Mike. I have never thought you have lied, but I have discussed with you before about the way you (only occasionally and admittedly cleverly) play with words in your replies - remember the talk about masonic 'handshakes' or 'grips'?

So - for Banoyes peace of mind - you are A&AR then.

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Old 09-11-2008, 02:11 PM   #40
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Hmmm, interesting point and causes me a quandry!

I pride myself on the fact that I do not lie! To answer banoye's question in another way would be to tell a lie.

As I responded to him when he told me that I must be "York Rite" because of my view on Pike




Maybe I should explain more

In England, we have the Ancient & Accepted Rite, it is different from the Scottish Rite although it does have 33 Degrees but its Rituals are different and it is a specificaly Christian Order, SR is open to all whereas to join A&AR you have to hold the Trinitarian Christian faith. To join the Scottish Rite I would have to go to America.

The York Rite does not exist here, although those degrees do (obviously) they have not been joined together to form some kind of continous line of Degrees. It's an American thing and to join it (like the SR) I would have to go to America.

It is a point I have tried to highlight many times Freemasonry is not one organsiation spread around the World, it is made up of many different bodies practising the same basic thing but it is by no means the same. This was highlighted for me a couple of months ago at a meeting which had visitors from Italy and America, their signs (secrets), the way we prove ourselves to be Masons in the Lodge, are different to ours.


Mike
Crimminy-he still never really answers
He never says "I am a such and such"
he says"In England, we have the Ancient & Accepted Rite"
so I assume he is a member of that Rite

Here is what Mike is as a Freemason
he is an Atholl Freemason
(please be carefull with pronunciation)

In 1751, a Grand Lodge was formed mostly by Irish freemasons, properly titled the "Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons of England according to the Old Institutions, it is also called "Atholl freemasons", after the third and fourth Dukes of Atholl.
and
want to see something scarey take a look at their "emblem"

http://f9g.yahoofs.com/groups/g_1818...rAsMGJB5zbFK_t.

The Supreme Council
http://www.supremecouncilsite.com/
( These Masons are not advocates of humiulity thats for sure..always Supreme and Worshipfull and Grand Master and Lodges named Perfection)
The "Ancient and Accepted Rite" is a Christian Masonic Order made up of Freemasons world wide. \
Mike fails to mention
"The Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales, usually known as the Rose Croix, originated in France in the 1750s when it had 25 deg
It moved first to the West Indies and then to Charlston in South Carolina where it was extended to the present 33 degrees before being reintroduced into Europe.  The present governing body, the Supreme Council, was formed in 1845.
The full title of the Order, which has changed from time to time over the years, is The Supreme Council 33 Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas"

Well There is a world of difference between not lying and telling the truth
A distinction that escapes Masons

Country to Masonic claims of independence there is a singular governing body.
"The United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE) is the main governing body of Freemasonry within England and Wales and in some countries, predominantly ex-British Empire and Commonwealth countries outside the United Kingdom"
The rosy cross connection
http://www.cumbwestmasons.co.uk/main...oix-info.shtml
http://www.beds-freemasonry.org.uk/others04.asp
other -reintroduction
THE ANCIENT AND PRIMTIVE RITE OF FREEMASONRY
IS REGULARLY REINTRODUCED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
As of the 4th & 5th of November 2006
http://www.sovereignsanctuary.org/

Supreme Council 33Degrees of the "Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas" held a 30th.Degree Ceremony on Anguilla on Thursday morning.
http://www.oxfordshiremasons.org.uk/...roix/index.htm

So Thats Mike - Atholl Freemason

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