Go Back   David Icke's Official Forums > Main Forums > Today's News > Politics / Elections

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-06-2014, 11:38 AM   #201
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephiloyd View Post
yes it is a gun

Was this draw at a time when black people weren't allowed to own firearms in America. How forward looking is that....
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:40 AM   #202
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephiloyd View Post
It is not racist, African tribes looked like that
Truen. But only a few are cannibals....
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:40 AM   #203
tildatod
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: A sunless world
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 3,220 (1,898 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phreaky View Post
Ahh, thanks for that.

While I also find the content questionable it is well illustrated. We can only guess at Upton's motives, and I'd side with naivety rather than malice. That said I don't think it has a place in the modern world outside of an historical interest.
Phreaky, why would you think naivety? She was raised in the USA. Slavery, remember? It was the norm to be racist, overtly horribly vile to blacks. Slavery had been abolished by the time she was born, but, it had been the norm for her mother's life. Not to mention, there was endless racial hatred despite the abolition of slavery. It was, very very importantly, very much still a time of empire building, empire confidence and so on. Minstrels were still performing well into the 20th century.HOW can such a person be naive? If you mean that this person was simply thinking, acting and showing the racist behaviours of the time, then yes, I would agree. At that time, there was a HUGE divide between blacks and whites. You really think that someone was not aware of that? You really think that someone who decided to write/draw ugly black 'dolls' inspired by the minstrels who took the piss out of blacks, was not aware that it was wrong? Where's the matching grotesque images of whites then?

It's a bit like South Africa. Apartheid was abolished. Er, are people magically united now? All blacks are loved? All whites are loved? Everyone's getting on? It's 20 years on from the abolition of apartheid, and the country's deeply divided.
tildatod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:41 AM   #204
phreaky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 534
Likes: 18 (12 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
Was this draw at a time when black people weren't allowed to own firearms in America. How forward looking is that....
Yeah, but he appears to be firing chemical weapons at a protected species. Is there no end to Upton's evil?
phreaky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:41 AM   #205
tildatod
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: A sunless world
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 3,220 (1,898 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
Why I can't seem to get across to tildatod, context is everything. It's a product of it's time. An whilst it looks a bit dodgy now, that wasn't it's intent.....
The context of that time was slavery, post-slavery, colonialism, black-oppression. You want to pretend that a racist moron was portraying blacks as she did, out of context then?
tildatod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:43 AM   #206
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
The context of that time was slavery, post-slavery, colonialism, black-oppression. You want to pretend that a racist moron was portraying blacks as she did, out of context then?
In just saying it was the time when someone could innocently portray a black character like this....
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:44 AM   #207
tildatod
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: A sunless world
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 3,220 (1,898 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephiloyd View Post
It is not racist, African tribes looked like that
African tribes looked like golliwogs? The ugly figures in the talentless work of Florence K. Upton, resemble the golliwogs. So when you see blacks, they look like golliwogs? You've already tried to pass off an image of a black writer who is offended by them, as a man who resembles them, because they have the same hair.

You still pretend you can't see that that is exactly why golliwogs, based on pisstaking minstrels, are racist. Their beginnings were racist. They're still a racist relic, no matter how much you try to pretend they are not.
tildatod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:46 AM   #208
tildatod
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: A sunless world
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 3,220 (1,898 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
In just saying it was the time when someone could innocently portray a black character like this....
Someone was portraying blacks as minstrels who mocked blacks....innocently? Someone raised in the climate of empire, colonial brutality, black slavery, black oppression, black suffering....was innocent and oblivious?


Edit: A member of Stormfront, KKK, racist cult etc. has a child, and raises the child to be as racist as he/she is. The child grows up and draws blacks as caricatures of themselves. It's not racist? Who's deciding if it's racist? You, the person who likes the stories and the nostalgia? Or the blacks who were targeted by it?

Last edited by tildatod; 05-06-2014 at 11:50 AM.
tildatod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:48 AM   #209
zephiloyd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Durham, UK
Posts: 4,304
Likes: 517 (207 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
African tribes looked like golliwogs? The ugly figures in the talentless work of Florence K. Upton, resemble the golliwogs. So when you see blacks, they look like golliwogs? You've already tried to pass off an image of a black writer who is offended by them, as a man who resembles them, because they have the same hair.

You still pretend you can't see that that is exactly why golliwogs, based on pisstaking minstrels, are racist. Their beginnings were racist. They're still a racist relic, no matter how much you try to pretend they are not.
what? Er No, they look like the tribesmen in the picture, not the golliwog, how could you get that wrong?
zephiloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:49 AM   #210
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Can I just point out. There is nothing basically wrong with black people being dressed like black minstrels.

It's only offensive when a white person 'blacks up'.

So unless you can convince me the gollywog isn't a white gnome pretending to be a black gnome, then that isn't in itself racist....
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:51 AM   #211
tildatod
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: A sunless world
Posts: 10,674
Likes: 3,220 (1,898 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
Can I just point out. There is nothing basically wrong with black people being dressed like black minstrels.

It's only offensive when a white person 'blacks up'.

So unless you can convince me the gollywog isn't a white gnome pretending to be a black gnome, then that isn't in itself racist....

Please....try a better argument to support racist authors, racist toys and so on.
tildatod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:55 AM   #212
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
Someone was portraying blacks as minstrels who mocked blacks....innocently? Someone raised in the climate of empire, colonial brutality, black slavery, black oppression, black suffering....was innocent and oblivious?


Edit: A member of Stormfront, KKK, racist cult etc. has a child, and raises the child to be as racist as he/she is. The child grows up and draws blacks as caricatures of themselves. It's not racist? Who's deciding if it's racist? You, the person who likes the stories and the nostalgia? Or the blacks who were targeted by it?
People bang on about black slaves in cotton fields, and rightly so. But that wasn't the fault of white people, it was the fault of rich white people.

What do you think happened to that cotton after the slaves picked it?

It was shipped to Britain, where poor white people had to work long hours for low pay in the cotton mills. The cotton loom where dangerous things, where child were made to pick up stray cotton below working looms, so of which lost limbs doing so.

And if they did do that? They would usually end up in the workhouses where all the worst things happened.
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:56 AM   #213
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
Please....try a better argument to support racist authors, racist toys and so on.
Saying an arguments weak isn't the say as countering it. Can you?....
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 11:59 AM   #214
zephiloyd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Durham, UK
Posts: 4,304
Likes: 517 (207 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
Truen. But only a few are cannibals....
However the book wouldn't be as interesting then, as they wouldn't be under threat from being eaten
zephiloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 12:02 PM   #215
mrunhappy
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6 (5 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephiloyd View Post
yes it is a gun

Am I imagining it or is he holding the gun all sideways gangsta nigga?

Last edited by Mr Happy; 05-06-2014 at 12:04 PM. Reason: not sure whether to edit or not
mrunhappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 12:03 PM   #216
zephiloyd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Durham, UK
Posts: 4,304
Likes: 517 (207 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fairyprincess View Post
Can I just point out. There is nothing basically wrong with black people being dressed like black minstrels.

It's only offensive when a white person 'blacks up'.

So unless you can convince me the gollywog isn't a white gnome pretending to be a black gnome, then that isn't in itself racist....
It is not necessarily offensive when a white person blacked up either, it is what you do with the character that is important. If they were being celebrated and not the object of derision then that is positive.
zephiloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 12:05 PM   #217
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrunhappy View Post
Am I imagining it or is he holding the gun all sideways gangsta nigga?
That's just how guns looked back in the day...l
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 12:05 PM   #218
phreaky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 534
Likes: 18 (12 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
Phreaky, why would you think naivety? She was raised in the USA.
Well firstly "she". She would have been in a society that would have most likely have shielded her from many of the harsh realities of the former slave trade. She lived in New York, far away from the South and cotton fields where mass use and abuse of slaves took place.

Fair enough there were the New York draft riot only a few years before she was born, but this was not the time where access to information would have been that easy. Also those riots were a bit of a blot on the history of the city and possibly not talked about in "polite company".

Slavery in New York had been abolished and the last slaves set free long before her birth. So given her surroundings it's not unreasonable to think that she naively thought blacks were relatively well treated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tildatod View Post
You really think that someone who decided to write/draw ugly black 'dolls' inspired by the minstrels who took the piss out of blacks, was not aware that it was wrong? Where's the matching grotesque images of whites then?
Yes I do. If she wanted to be malicious then the Gollywogg wouldn't have been a friendly character. She would have shown what she considered the base characteristics of a brute.
phreaky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 12:06 PM   #219
mrunhappy
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 6 (5 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephiloyd View Post
It is not necessarily offensive when a white person blacked up either, it is what you do with the character that is important. If they were being celebrated and not the object of derision then that is positive.
Was not Mr Robertson's Jam interpretation a positive character?
mrunhappy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2014, 12:09 PM   #220
fairyprincess
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: The city at the edge of the world
Posts: 12,554
Likes: 2,459 (1,357 Posts)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by phreaky View Post
Well firstly "she". She would have been in a society that would have most likely have shielded her from many of the harsh realities of the former slave trade. She lived in New York, far away from the South and cotton fields where mass use and abuse of slaves took place.

Fair enough there were the New York draft riot only a few years before she was born, but this was not the time where access to information would have been that easy. Also those riots were a bit of a blot on the history of the city and possibly not talked about in "polite company".

Slavery in New York had been abolished and the last slaves set free long before her birth. So given her surroundings it's not unreasonable to think that she naively thought blacks were relatively well treated.


Yes I do. If she wanted to be malicious then the Gollywogg wouldn't have been a friendly character. She would have shown what she considered the base characteristics of a brute.
She also let him hang around with those dutch dolls. White female characters. How many White people back then would have let a black man be friends with there daughters?....
__________________
"if you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (Jesus Christ, gospel of thomas.)

Love is natural, Hate is taught....
fairyprincess is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:22 AM.


Shoutbox provided by vBShout (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.