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Old 06-03-2013, 05:56 PM   #41
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Arrow 13A-ster 2Uilders

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Old 06-03-2013, 06:05 PM   #42
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Modern processing technology in the 19th and 20th century was largely developed to serve 13ilitary needs...Examples of Processing also Exist from Preindustrial revolution times such as the 3O-rnish Pasty and Haggis...

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Old 07-03-2013, 12:46 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by riseaquarius View Post
Why don't you Freemasons stop litigating and just spill the beans on Satan and his little conspiracy?
Satan does not play a part in Freemasonry. This is a concoction created by the insecure, the ignorant, the tyrannical, and/or the fascist to suit their agenda.

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For whatever reason your order has become synonymous with the Illuminati and New World Order which you aren't trying very hard to distance yourself from.

That speaks volumes to me.
A lie told about us a thousand times is still a lie.

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Originally Posted by fahimknight View Post
The proof has been well documented; the question is whether or not you are open to receive the truth.
You mean fabricated instead of documented? The crap that has been placed out on the internet and written about by these shills can be and has been easily debunked.

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Originally Posted by wormhole888 View Post
Are you saying then that society is run or governed entirely democratically and that there is no corruption in positions of elected governance ..
Freemasonry is very democratic in nature. Some corrupt or bad activity happens, but the systems we have in place prevent any one from having too much power and the systems we have in place are very effective. Each Grand Lodge has its own system and rules by which it lives.

As for civil government, yes there is a shit load of corrupt activity, but I could write a book on what I believe about civil government.

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Secret groups within groups within etc using initiations is a well used concept stretching back thousands of years and judging by the range and types of cars in the covern (lodge) at the top of my road these masons will be in positions usefull for corruption ,,directors, mgistrates, etc.
There is no "secret group" within Freemasonry.

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how could you possibly know what secret groups operate and how they operate in freemasonry?
If you knew how Freemasonry operated you'd realize that this kind of thought is folly.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:32 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ksigmason View Post
You mean fabricated instead of documented? The crap that has been placed out on the internet and written about by these shills can be and has been easily debunked.
The utilization of deductive reasoning is implored by the conspiracy theoretician, which to assess and evaluate the allege 'facts' and often drawing what is deemed as "unconventional" conclusions. The thought is being guided by intuition and a moral compass, which is geared towards finding the truth. No different than like a good private investigator that has put in the research time and has gathered enough evidence to make a reasonable inference about a subject. The findings more than often will likely be a deviation from and contrary to the popular version of the truth relative to an event that may have taking place in history. However, one of the fundamental components and elements of the conspirators is their ability to conceal secrecy and manipulate past, present and future reality by veiling, cryptic, mystifying and creating a covert clandestine system which to or not to disseminate information.

The very nature of mentioning the word conspiracy ordinarily evoke two different reactions; one being of denial, disbelief and rejection; moreover, often there is a fervent position to protect the popular view because there exist in the human psyche a deep seated belief and trust that our governments (and/or other entities of authority) will not do what the conspiracy theorist are maintaining. However, secondly, there is a much smaller minority of people who study certain past historical trends and are more than willing to explore the possibilities of an alternative view by delving into questions that are not expected to be entertained by an indoctrinated and ignorant masses.

Stay Awake Until We Meet Again,
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
Satan does not play a part in Freemasonry. This is a concoction created by the insecure, the ignorant, the tyrannical, and/or the fascist to suit their agenda.
Then what does Satan play a part in? The Illuminati? The New World Order?

Maybe you should elaborate instead of just indignantly denying everything.

Like I said, you aren't trying very hard to convince people Freemasons aren't part of the problem.
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Old 07-03-2013, 05:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by riseaquarius View Post
Then what does Satan play a part in? The Illuminati? The New World Order?

Maybe you should elaborate instead of just indignantly denying everything.

Like I said, you aren't trying very hard to convince people Freemasons aren't part of the problem.
In my opinion he plays the same part every boogy man plays in every other fairytale. To keep the ignorant and the young in line. But there is no mention of satan in freemasonry that I know of.
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Old 07-03-2013, 07:44 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by fahimknight View Post
The utilization of deductive reasoning is implored by the conspiracy theoretician, which to assess and evaluate the allege 'facts' and often drawing what is deemed as "unconventional" conclusions.
Well, from what I've seen "drawing what is deemed as 'unconventional' conclusions" means fabricating information or making wild exaggerations based on nothing.

Quote:
The thought is being guided by intuition and a moral compass, which is geared towards finding the truth. No different than like a good private investigator that has put in the research time and has gathered enough evidence to make a reasonable inference about a subject.
Then why do so many conspiracy theorists (CT) that I come across just recycle the same garbage over and over again. It's very rare to meet one with original material. So much that I see is that a CT is guided by what others say.

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Originally Posted by riseaquarius View Post
Then what does Satan play a part in? The Illuminati? The New World Order?
I doubt Satan played a part in the Illuminati which died out centuries ago. As to the New World Order, I couldn't say; my idea and your idea of what the NWO are is probably different.

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Maybe you should elaborate instead of just indignantly denying everything.
I don't further elaborate that Satan doesn't play a part in Freemasonry. I could make some kind of Seussical rhyme and just repeat it as that's all I can do. I don't know how I could further elaborate. What would you like to see?

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Like I said, you aren't trying very hard to convince people Freemasons aren't part of the problem.
And yet its not my job to disprove anything. The one accusing is required to show ample evidence. I have no seen any.

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Originally Posted by eppyone View Post
In my opinion he plays the same part every boogy man plays in every other fairytale. To keep the ignorant and the young in line. But there is no mention of satan in freemasonry that I know of.
Awwwww shucks! You read me like a book.
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Old 07-03-2013, 08:56 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by eppyone
In my opinion he plays the same part every boogy man plays in every other fairytale. To keep the ignorant and the young in line.
How about this: Is there or is there not a global conspiracy?

All roads lead to Rome.
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Originally Posted by kisigmason
Well, from what I've seen "drawing what is deemed as 'unconventional' conclusions" means fabricating information or making wild exaggerations based on nothing.
In other words there's no conspiracy and those who believe there is are all lunatics?

Spoken like a true freemason.
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Originally Posted by kisigmason
As to the New World Order, I couldn't say; my idea and your idea of what the NWO are is probably different.
No doubt. I'm against the global police state and you probably welcome it.

If I'm wrong about that then its your fault for once again not clarifying your actual position and forcing me to speculate.
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
I don't further elaborate that Satan doesn't play a part in Freemasonry.
I could make some kind of Seussical rhyme and just repeat it as that's all I can do.
I don't know how I could further elaborate. What would you like to see?
As a Freemason you should at least know how the 'myth' of Satan became associated with your order.

You should also know something about other secret societies such as the Illuminati.

Its funny how easily most of this information can be pieced together from the internet but you, an elite Freemason, know nothing about any of it.. Bullshit.
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Originally Posted by kisigmason
And yet its not my job to disprove anything. The one accusing is required to show ample evidence. I have no seen any.
And its not my job to automatically give you the benefit of the doubt.

Until you stop deflecting questions and belittling those who ask them, I can only assume you're just another lying Satanist no different from the Illuminati.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:42 AM   #49
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In other words there's no conspiracy and those who believe there is are all lunatics?

Spoken like a true freemason.
I never said there is no conspiracies, but the stuff I've seen held against Freemasonry is weak, really weak.

I don't trust the government and I can see some of the conspiracies held against him, but I've always been a skeptical person.

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No doubt. I'm against the global police state and you probably welcome it.
Incorrect. I'm against a one world government. I believe the state and municipal levels best represent the people. The federal government I'd like to see is something talked about in the Federalist Papers.

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As a Freemason you should at least know how the 'myth' of Satan became associated with your order.
Intolerance?

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Its funny how easily most of this information can be pieced together from the internet but you, an elite Freemason, know nothing about any of it.. Bullshit.
Not everything on the Internet is true. Much written about the Illuminati is not based on actual facts, but speculation. If you believe otherwise then please cite documentation.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:18 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
I never said there is no conspiracies, but the stuff I've seen held against Freemasonry is weak, really weak.
Perhaps, but your responses have been even weaker.

Maybe you should try clearing up misunderstandings instead of whining about them.
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
Incorrect. I'm against a one world government. I believe the state and municipal levels best represent the people.
The federal government I'd like to see is something talked about in the Federalist Papers.
Fair enough. Now can you tell me Freemasonry's official position on one-world government?
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiseAquarius
As a Freemason you should at least know how the 'myth' of Satan became associated with your order.
Intolerance?
Why do all of your answers assume defective reasoning on the part of others?

Could it be that these people are actually right about Freemasonry and you're just trying to discredit them?
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiseAquarius
Its funny how easily most of this information can be pieced together from the internet but you, an elite Freemason, know nothing about any of it.. Bullshit.
Not everything on the Internet is true.
I never said it was. However there are many truths which can only be learned on the internet thanks to orders like yours which actively suppress information.

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morgan_(anti-Mason)

Morgan attempted to join the Masonic lodge in Batavia but was denied admission.[5] Angered by the rejection, Morgan said he was going to publish a book entitled Illustrations of Masonry,[6] critical of the Freemasons and describing their secret degree work in great detail.
...
There are conflicting accounts about what followed. The most common version is that Morgan was taken in a boat to the middle of the Niagara River and drowned, as he was never seen again.[7] In 1848 Henry L. Valance allegedly confessed to his part in the murder on his deathbed, a story recounted in chapter two of Reverend C. G. Finney's book The Character, Claims, and Practical Workings of Freemasonry (1869).
William Morgan isn't the only famous murder victim of Freemasonry either.

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Much written about the Illuminati is not based on actual facts, but speculation. If you believe otherwise then please cite documentation.
If my simple questions aren't registering then I doubt 'documentation' will either.

Funny though that you're now defending the Illuminati using the exact same hollow arguments you used to defend Freemasonry.

Because they're totally different right?

How about this:

Can you please explain the differences between Freemasonry and the Illuminati as I have repeatedly asked?
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:32 AM   #51
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I never said there is no conspiracies, but the stuff I've seen held against Freemasonry is weak, really weak.
I think that the average Mason does read through a lot of the twaddle being posted in forums and understandably becomes irritated because some things are said 'wildly'.

That being said, I also agree that if a non-Mason is going to say something about Freemasonry, it should at least be backed up by references.

Now, with that being said, a non Mason named Tom C. McKenney (Author) did team up with an ex Mason named James D. Shaw, in co-authoring the book, 'Deadly Deception'. Here is a tiny excerpt from what he had to say.

"Most of us see only the exterior of the building, usually an unattractive, forbidding exterior with a locked door and no windows. It is a grim fortress of mystery, saying to the rest of the world, "Stay away ... your profane eyes and ears may not see or hear what we do in here." Behind that door are men you know and see regularly, many of them good men, some of them Christians, and all of them victims ... victims of a deadly deception. Through that door unsuspecting men step, blindfolded, into a vast and powerful system which will control their lives, to varying degrees, from that moment on. The vast majority will never proceed beyond the local lodge. A small minority will "go higher" into the degrees of the York and Scottish Rite. And, within this small minority, only a committed few will take it all seriously, studying and learning, making the endless search for "light" the center of their lives." ~ Lt. Col. Tom C. McKenney, USMC

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Old 08-03-2013, 11:01 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by jesusissalvation
I also agree that if a non-Mason is going to say something about Freemasonry, it should at least be backed up by references.
It's a fool's errand. Any references you manage to produce will be promptly dismissed one way or another.

You shouldn't waste your time trying to prove things to dishonest people.

5 imaginary dollars says ksigmason completely dismisses your exerpt.
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:19 PM   #53
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5 imaginary dollars says ksigmason completely dismisses your exerpt.
I'm going to hope he doesn't. Masons, in my experience, are rather reluctant to admit to certain truths - understandably because they have to take oaths, like the one below.

“May this wine I now drink become a deadly poison to me, as the Hemlock juice drunk by Socrates, should I ever knowingly or wilfully violate the same” (the oath). ~ oath taken at the 33rd Degree.
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Old 08-03-2013, 06:24 PM   #54
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Maybe you should try clearing up misunderstandings instead of whining about them.
I do and then I'm called a liar.

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Fair enough. Now can you tell me Freemasonry's official position on one-world government?
Freemasonry has no position as It does not chosen itself in civil government. I know the British have royalty as Masonic leaders but this not indicative of the rest of Freemasonry.

Quote:
Why do all of your answers assume defective reasoning on the part of others?
Facts prove them wrong.

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William Morgan isn't the only famous murder victim of Freemasonry either.
Alleged victim. No body was ever discovered, plus why would any Mason be angered about his book? There were dozens already out that already said the same thing. He was revealing nothing new.

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Funny though that you're now defending the Illuminati using the exact same hollow arguments you used to defend Freemasonry.
So I ask for actual evidence and is hollow?

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Can you please explain the differences between Freemasonry and the Illuminati as I have repeatedly asked?
I must have missed where you asked that.

1) The Illuminati doesn't exist anymore, the Masons do.

2) Freemasonry is far older.

3) I'll have to finish later tonight. I have to go drive for 9- hours to make a meeting.
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:13 PM   #55
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Can you please explain the differences between Freemasonry and the Illuminati as I have repeatedly asked?
You can always do your own research but read all of this to answer your question:

While many contemporary conspiracy theorists claim that the Illuminati is made up of "high-ranking" 33° freemasons, just as many other conspiracy theorists claim that this is an unprovable red herring that distracts from the very real and provable conspiracies. Freemasonry denies any connection other than a brief historical association with the Bavarian Illuminati. - http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-mason...inati_FAQ.html

The Illuminati was suppressed in a series of edicts between 1784 and 1787, and Weishaupt himself was banished in 1785. Weishaupt, his Illuminati society, the Freemasons, and other secret societies are portrayed by Robison and Barruel as bent on despotic world domination through a secret conspiracy using front groups to spread their influence. - http://www.masonicinfo.com/illuminati.htm
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Old 08-03-2013, 07:19 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by jesusissalvation View Post
Now, with that being said, a non Mason named Tom C. McKenney (Author) did team up with an ex Mason named James D. Shaw, in co-authoring the book, 'Deadly Deception'.
This book is very unreliable. Do some research and you will find out why.
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:44 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiseAquarius
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiseAquarius
As a Freemason you should at least know how the 'myth' of Satan became associated with your order.
Intolerance?
Why do all of your answers assume defective reasoning on the part of others?

Maybe you should try clearing up misunderstandings instead of whining about them.
I do and then I'm called a liar.
You just blamed the entire Satanic connection to Freemasonry on 'intolerance', with a question mark no less as if you have no idea what you're talking about.

You're either lying outright or lying by omission.
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
Freemasonry has no position as It does not chosen itself in civil government. I know the British have royalty as Masonic leaders but this not indicative of the rest of Freemasonry.
Thanks for providing an answer with some substance. I'll consider it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiseAquarius
William Morgan isn't the only famous murder victim of Freemasonry either.
Alleged victim. No body was ever discovered, plus why would any Mason be angered about his book?
Is this a Jedi mind trick? Masons would have been angry at Morgan for publishing their secrets, obviously.

Playing dumb is another reason you're called a liar. Its deception.
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Originally Posted by ksigmason
There were dozens already out that already said the same thing. He was revealing nothing new.
So all these people were publishing the same 'lies'?

Let me guess: This was all one big conspiracy to discredit Freemasonry?

I'm not just being facetious either. I've long suspected some rivalry between Freemasons and the Illuminati.

It sure would be nice if some kind Mason could elaborate on that before I decide once and for all that there there is no difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiseAquarius
Funny though that you're now defending the Illuminati using the exact same hollow arguments you used to defend Freemasonry.
So I ask for actual evidence and is hollow?
The hollow arguments I'm referring to are your claims that critics of Freemasonry and now the Illuminati are all lying, crazy, or otherwise defective.

As always you have zero evidence to support this claim even though you constantly demand it from everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason
Quote:
Originally Posted by RiseAquarius
Can you please explain the differences between Freemasonry and the Illuminati as I have repeatedly asked?
I must have missed where you asked that.

1) The Illuminati doesn't exist anymore, the Masons do.
Where'd you hear this? The lodge? Because here in the real world the Illuminati are alive and well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ksigmason
Freemasonry is far older.
This was my understanding as well.
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Old 08-03-2013, 09:44 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by =kadosh
While many contemporary conspiracy theorists claim that the Illuminati is made up of "high-ranking" 33° freemasons, just as many other conspiracy theorists claim that this is an unprovable red herring that distracts from the very real and provable conspiracies. Freemasonry denies any connection other than a brief historical association with the Bavarian Illuminati. - http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-mason...inati_FAQ.html

The Illuminati was suppressed in a series of edicts between 1784 and 1787, and Weishaupt himself was banished in 1785. Weishaupt, his Illuminati society, the Freemasons, and other secret societies are portrayed by Robison and Barruel as bent on despotic world domination through a secret conspiracy using front groups to spread their influence. - http://www.masonicinfo.com/illuminati.htm
Thanks for the information. What I'm particularly interested in is their relationship to one another.

Surely the two orders were aware of eachother's existence which almost guarantees they would have been allies, rivals or at the very least, associates at some point.

As previously stated, I'm also curious about the religious differences between the two societies.



What do you know about this? Eg. Which secret society is this? and which deity are they honoring?

Surely you can provide a more elaborate answer than 'I dono nuthin bout no Satan!'.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:16 PM   #59
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As previously stated, I'm also curious about the religious differences between the two societies.
Freemasonry is not a religion and neither was the Illuminati. So there is nothing to compare or discuss. The founder of the Illuminati was a Freemason, so there's a connection. The only connection.

The Illuminati and the Freemasons are completely different. They were founded at different times despite a time overlap. Freemasonry was first organised in London, England in 1717. The Illuminati existed for a very short time at the end of the 17th Century in Bavaria.

The Order of Illuminati was created on 1st May 1776 by a philosopher and professor of Canon Law at Ingolstadt University in Bavaria named Dr. Adam Weishaupt as a protective shield for their Scientific and Philosophical activities which were nor appreciated by the Catholic Church and the Bavarian King. They eventually had to flee because of prosecution. They never surfaced again.

Freemasons exist today virtually everywhere in the world and there is no connection whatsoever between the two. The difference between Illuminati and Freemasons is that the latter still exist and the others have disappeared about 225 years ago.

Anybody can make something up or create a rumor on the internet.
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:39 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by kadosh
Anybody can make something up or create a rumor on the internet.
Not believably. Believability requires it be supported by the available evidence and that isn't easy to spin if you're trying to steer people away from the truth.

Someone will usually spot the fallacy, which is probably why secret societies have resorted to not answering questions, because they know they'll get caught lying.


That said, Bohemian Grove is NOT an internet rumor.

Obviously it is real, and in typical Masonic fashion you completely ignored my questions concerning it despite the gigantic flaming owl on your screen.

If you don't know what goes on at Bohemian Grove, why not just admit it?
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