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Old 23-04-2013, 01:41 PM   #1041
sandwarrior
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You cannot show any proof that the energy that is the baby did not create it's own heaven or hell. You speculate that you are correct is all but you make it look convincing. If the baby was Jimmy Saville in its immediate past life then indeed it would be fitting from the grand scheme of a bigger more vast single consciousness than our feeble minds can comprehend. All for nothing more than the experience, illusory as it may be.
Of course I can show proof.

I could show you the faulty cells that were passed from the mother which had been passed down for generations, skipping a few through the years.

Or maybe the baby lived too close to Chernobyl and as such was exposed to high levels of radiation, or, well you get my drift.
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:09 PM   #1042
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You cannot show any proof that the energy that is the baby did not create it's own heaven or hell. You speculate that you are correct is all but you make it look convincing. If the baby was Jimmy Saville in its immediate past life then indeed it would be fitting from the grand scheme of a bigger more vast single consciousness than our feeble minds can comprehend.
Apart from being a ridiculously flawed argument, this is one of the sickest kind of beliefs that exist.

Absolutely disgusting and deplorable. With an attitude like that, you can easily justify anyone suffering because they were bad in their last life. What a load of shite.

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Old 23-04-2013, 02:34 PM   #1043
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Yes, Mr Arnold used previous programming to describe something he had never seen before, it is the only way we can function. he used words like falt, oval etc, which he had previously been programmed with.

We seem to be saying the same thing.



Have you never heard the phrase "genetic programming"?

What is DNA, if not a programme?



I jumped out of an airplane with a parachute because I had seen it on television and it was something that I wanted to try, so I did. Had I never seen it, how would I want to try it, or not as the case may be?

Airplanes evolved, we didn't just start building airplanes.

Like absolutely everything it is a process, a programme that evolves.
ok what about base jumping ? who was the first to jump from a sky scraper ? and why?




yeah there no sign of free will there ???? looks totaly programed
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:37 PM   #1044
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ok what about base jumping ? who was the first to jump from a sky scraper ? and why?




yeah there no sign of free will there ???? looks totaly programed
I agree, no sign of free will and totally programmed :-)
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:38 PM   #1045
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ok what about base jumping ? who was the first to jump from a sky scraper ? and why?



yeah there no sign of free will there ???? looks totaly programed
Wow. These free will arguments are just getting worse and worse.
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:39 PM   #1046
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I agree, no sign of free will and totally programmed :-)
but you avoid the question who was the first to do this ? and what programmed him?

I find it hard for you to blame DNA because sky scrapers and parachutes have not been around long .....plus what made the first person attempt to base jump ? ....were did that programming come from?

plus think about it jumping of buildings/planes is not natural , your body would problem try to not make you not do it throw fear...so were did the will to do it come from ?
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:48 PM   #1047
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but you avoid the question who was the first to do this ? and what programmed him?

I find it hard you to blame DNA because sky scrapers and parachutes have not been around long .....plus what made the first person attempt to base jump ? ....were did that programming come from?
I have no idea who the first person was, although I bet Google will :-)

As to why, its just an extension of sky diving, its a logical process, you can parachute without an air plane.

As to why people do those things, I imagine its like the tribes who bungee with a utree vine and hit the floor. its a test of masculinity and basically a buzz.
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:50 PM   #1048
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I have no idea who the first person was, although I bet Google will :-)

As to why, its just an extension of sky diving, its a logical process, you can parachute without an air plane.

As to why people do those things, I imagine its like the tribes who bungee with a utree vine and hit the floor. its a test of masculinity and basically a buzz.
so anybody would quite happily throw themselves of a sky scrapper ? or bungee jump ? no will needed ?

who was the first to skydive ? and why do humans do this ?

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Old 23-04-2013, 02:52 PM   #1049
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so anybody would quite happily throw themselves of a sky scrapper ? or bungee jump ? no will needed ?
Of course you have to have the will to do it.

Its just that that will, will have been caused and hence not free.
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:53 PM   #1050
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Of course I can show proof.

I could show you the faulty cells that were passed from the mother which had been passed down for generations, skipping a few through the years.

Or maybe the baby lived too close to Chernobyl and as such was exposed to high levels of radiation, or, well you get my drift.
Missing the point. You can state your arguments. I can agree with you all the way on every turn and its absolutely real.

The opposing argument can state their argument, I can agree with it at every turn and it is absolutely real.

Wake up to realize many people believe in reincarnation and penance for past debt. Is this not part of your law you speak of here? I believe so. The paradox is above. At one time you saw the world other than you do now. It was just as real for you then as now. How this can be is simply explained by your percep of the situation observed.
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:54 PM   #1051
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I imagine the first person to do it would have been a soldier.

Why? because if was ordered to.
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Old 23-04-2013, 02:56 PM   #1052
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Of course you have to have the will to do it.

Its just that that will, will have been caused and hence not free.
but people freely chose to do skydiving and base jumping nobody is forcing them to do it ? .....and your "seen it on the telly" argument ...falls apart when many of these things start with no TV coverage of them and does not explain why the first people started them at all...also why don`t everyone actually skydive ? why only a few people ? not everyone ?
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It would also appear possible to create high fidelity speech in the human body, raising the possibility of covert suggestion and psychological direction...Thus, it may be possible to 'talk' to selected adversaries in a fashion that would be most disturbing to them."
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find out more website ==> https://decasfoxhole.wordpress.com/

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Old 23-04-2013, 03:01 PM   #1053
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I imagine the first person to do it would have been a soldier.

Why? because if was ordered to.
and who ordered him to order somebody else to jump out off a plane ? and why did they develop parachutes in the first place ?
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It would also appear possible to create high fidelity speech in the human body, raising the possibility of covert suggestion and psychological direction...Thus, it may be possible to 'talk' to selected adversaries in a fashion that would be most disturbing to them."
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Old 23-04-2013, 03:10 PM   #1054
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Ok so we do agree. I say there's free will. You also say there's free will. Then I don't get what we're arguing over?
And of course it's a tool. It's a tool for those who are advanced enough to properly use it.
I don't say that there is free will, there is no proof either way all I said was that the belief in free will is a powerful tool to help people change and that I love and use the idea that I have a choice everyday.

I also love the belief that we are not responsible for our actions not because it gets us off the hook but because it let's us move on.

I heard a talk by Michael Tsarion and he was discussing the idea of enlightenment and he said that perhaps enlightenment is not about gaining knowledge and becoming wise but that you must instead become light, letting go the burdens of the past mistakes is definitely a step along this path, to enter the gates of heaven you must becomes as a little child, the Egyptians used to weigh the soul against a feather and only those that were light enough would get to heaven.

Ultimately life and how we see the world is just a set of beliefs/programmes to help us make sense of it I think that sandwarrior's ideology is a healthy one even though as with free will there is no way to prove it absolutely
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Old 23-04-2013, 03:11 PM   #1055
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and who ordered him to order somebody else to jump out off a plane ? and why did they develop parachutes in the first place ?
I am sure you can work out the answers to those questions yourself?
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Old 23-04-2013, 03:22 PM   #1056
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I agree, we are responsible for our conscious actions, but disagree that we are not capable of controlling unconscious thought. It's all about discipline and learning to control the mind by directly interacting with it through meditation and accessing the many levels of awareness & consciousness, yet how many people or even scientists can be even bothered to meditate, let alone tame their unconscious mind. The answer is not many and you wonder why some people appear to have no control over their emotions or behavior and then make absurd claims that we are not responsible for our actions. Surely this is the height of ignorance, completely ignoring your true inner self, while at the same claiming that they understand how consciousness & unconsciousness operates.
We program our own subconscious and meditation and awareness can allow us to view our subconscious and observe what is either unnecessary or negative and let go or move on in our self. You are not alone in this world, all actions have repercussions, why then is it such a leap to understand that all actions have causes.
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Old 23-04-2013, 03:31 PM   #1057
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To make another comparison: take the claim that the human body is just a collection of molecules. That's a true claim, but there is a distinct difference between a soup of molecules and a human body, even though both contain exactly the same molecules. The human body can do things the soup cannot.
That's a good analogy all the processes in the cell may appear independent but they all relate to the cells overall function which inturn behaves according to the tissue, organ or situation within the organ further they are within a body and that body is responding to the internal and external world around it. There is no measurable independence or free will.
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Old 23-04-2013, 03:32 PM   #1058
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We program our own subconscious and meditation and awareness can allow us to view our subconscious and observe what is either unnecessary or negative and let go or move on in our self. You are not alone in this world, all actions have repercussions, why then is it such a leap to understand that all actions have causes.
so everybody speeds in the car because they are late for work or in an emergency ?
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Old 23-04-2013, 03:35 PM   #1059
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so everybody speeds in the car because they are late for work or in an emergency ?
You are just trolling now.

Why? What is your cause? :-)
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Old 23-04-2013, 03:41 PM   #1060
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That's a good analogy all the processes in the cell may appear independent but they all relate to the cells overall function which inturn behaves according to the tissue, organ or situation within the organ further they are within a body and that body is responding to the internal and external world around it. There is no measurable independence or free will.
Yes, but there is a certain amount and integration of information needed for consciousness to emerge according to the Integrated Information Theory.
A worm for example also has a higher functioning than a soup of the same molecules. But the worm is probably not conscious in the same way we humans can be conscious.

So higher order functioning is a necessary but not by itself sufficient requirement for consciousness. To make a system conscious, the function Phi (in the above theory) must reach a high enough value. This happens in the human brain and the nervous system when we are in a waken state.

Then what about things like out of body experiences? Can those be real? Yes! Because if for example the zero point field in space can maintain the level of integration of information needed, then our consciousness can go outside the body!
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