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Old 05-09-2016, 05:17 PM   #41
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So then allow me to Illuminate you.

The concept of the Lake of Fire comes from the valley of the children of Hinnom.

In other words the Old Testament...

2 Kings 23:10
"And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech"


Thus the Lake of Fire is not the end either now is it?

Those tossed into it go THROUGH it.

Thus it is a Portal.

A Portal to an Entity in fact.

What does that Entity represent?
Well for a start, you dont start at verse 19, you start at verse 1.

1 Then the king sent, and they gathered to him all the elders of Judah and of Jerusalem. 2 The king went up to the house of the LORD and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests and the prophets and all the people, both small and great; and he read in their hearing all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.

Now from this i know that they are talking about the second temple, which got burnt down by the Romans because the second temple had a room which was said to have the soul of the Lord in it.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:21 PM   #42
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Now from this i know that they are talking about the second temple, which got burnt down by the Romans because the second temple had a room which was said to have the soul of the Lord in it.
Sorry, I should have mentioned the use of the Word Gehenna.

The KJV translates it as Hell.

Gehenna means 'Valley of the Son of Hinnom'... i.e. Lake of Fire...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

It leads to the Sacred Cow.

Hathor or Golden Calf.

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Old 05-09-2016, 05:25 PM   #43
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4 Then the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest and the priests of the second order and the doorkeepers, to bring out of the temple of the LORD all the vessels that were made for Baal, for Asherah, and for all the host of heaven; and he burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron, and carried their ashes to Bethel.


So they are destroying Baal


5 He did away with the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had appointed to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah and in the surrounding area of Jerusalem, also those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun and to the moon and to the constellations and to all the host of heaven.


Still destroying baal
So far it seems they seem to be destroying what they believe to be a false god
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:27 PM   #44
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Sorry, I should have mentioned the use of the Word Gehenna.

The KJV translates it as Hell.

Gehenna means 'Valley of the Son of Hinnom'... i.e. Lake of Fire...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

It leads to the Sacred Cow.

Hathor or Golden Calf.
I have read the first 6 verses.

So far, although they do appear to mention those things, they appear to be destroying those things.

Am i reading it wrong?

The first 6 verses suggest that they are against the concepts you attribute to them.
However they have to mention those things so you know they are against them, however mentioning those things does not mean they themselves are for it.

Or am i reading it wrong?
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:34 PM   #45
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Default Verse 10 - They are against Molech

10 He also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech.…


The Lord of the second Temple (Israel) according to the author, is against Molech.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:37 PM   #46
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Default Verse 11 - Is against Sun Gods

11 He did away with the horses which the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entrance of the house of the LORD, by the chamber of Nathan-melech the official, which was in the precincts; and he burned the chariots of the sun with fire.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:41 PM   #47
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Default Verse 17 - Something interesting here

17Then he said, "What is this monument that I see?" And the men of the city told him, "It is the grave of the man of God who came from Judah and proclaimed these things which you have done against the altar of Bethel."


Is this why we have two creation accounts in Genesis?
One that gives credit to a man made in Gods image and another that gives a different account?
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:42 PM   #48
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10 He also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech.…


The Lord of the second Temple (Israel) according to the author, is against Molech.
That should read "to" Molech.

The Sacred Cow of the Egyptians... Hathor the Womb of the Sun.

Here is how we know Moloch is the Golden Calf...

Amos 5:25
"Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?"


So here we see it's referring to Moses and the 40 years of wandering.

That is of course where the Sin of the Golden Calf occurred.

Amos 5:26
"But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves"


So Moloch is the Golden Calf... most likely the Egyptian Goddess Hathor or the Womb Goddess.

In other words... Reincarnation.

This is what the Church is hiding from everyone with there 'Hell Fire' teachings.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:45 PM   #49
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Default V 23 Their victory turned in to a festive celebration called Passover

23 But in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, this Passover was observed to the LORD in Jerusalem.


After defeating the false Gods and Molech, they celebrate the victory with a festivity called Passover
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:47 PM   #50
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That should read "to" Molech.

The Sacred Cow of the Egyptians... Hathor the Womb of the Sun.

Here is how we know Moloch is the Golden Calf...

Amos 5:25
"Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?"


So here we see it's referring to Moses and the 40 years of wandering.

That is of course where the Sin of the Golden Calf occurred.

Amos 5:26
"But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves"


So Moloch is the Golden Calf... most likely the Egyptian Goddess Hathor or the Womb Goddess.

In other words... Reincarnation.

This is what the Church is hiding from everyone with there 'Hell Fire' teachings.
Why should it read to?

I have copied and pasted the story above.
You can clearly see that the chapter is a story where they are fighting the false gods and they defeat those that are for Molech


Verse 10

10 He also defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter pass through the fire for Molech




Also, please, before presenting me with yet more verses, please begin at Verse 1.


And why is the church hiding this?
It is in the bible for crying out loud.
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Old 05-09-2016, 05:54 PM   #51
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Sorry base12

We seem to be at crosswires.

You obviously think i have beliefs i dont actually have.
I dont have beliefs.
I look at things unemotionally and objectively.

I am already aware the Egyptians invaded Canaan and brought their beliefs with them.

The City of David was at one point an Egyptian vassal state.

Plenty Greek influence aswell.
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Old 05-09-2016, 06:00 PM   #52
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Default The Irony

24 Moreover, Josiah removed the mediums and the spiritists and the teraphim and the idols and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, that he might confirm the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the LORD.


The irony is that when they begin removing the idols mediums and spiritualists they get accused of removing the 'truth' in order to brainwash people and keep the truth for themselves.

However, when you read the chapter, they are removing the very people that gave you your Pagan concepts of Hell!
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:50 PM   #53
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Default The Valley of Hinnom

The Valley of Hinnom is the modern name for the valley surrounding Jerusalem's Old City, including Mount Zion.

Gehenna was initially where some of the kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire, particularly kings Ahaz and Manasseh between 600 and 700bc.

Jeremiah comments that the worshippers of Baal had "filled this place with the blood of innocents".

It was a place were child sacrifices were made to Moloch.

Due to the horrors that took place in the area, Gehenna became cursed, and became 'a destination of the wicked' in Jewish Rabbinic literature.

It is this very place that those that sacrificed innocent children ended up.

And the Jewish concept of this becoming a figurative 'destination of the wicked' is a reversal of the previous concept prior to passover, when this was 'a destination of the innocent'.


However Gehenna is different to Hades and Sheol, and 'the king james bible' has misused the term "Valley of Hinnom" 13 times in 11 verses in the new testament.


It must be noted that those events in the bible are taking place right around the time in history that the babylonians are conquering Israel and Judah, and taking it off the Egyptians.
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Old 06-09-2016, 11:01 AM   #54
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Blacky, I concur that the concept of Hell does not appear in the OT and the subsequent Christian concept of Hell arose partly from Greek ideas and partly from Egyptian ideas of what happened to the damned after death. The Lake of Fire is also an Egyptian belief. The difference between the Christian and the Egyptian idea of damnation is that the Egyptians believed only the wicked were damned. Christianity taught that unbelievers, good or wicked, were damned.

You are wrong in believing that the Norse had a similar concept of Hell as a place of punishment. They didn't. Helheim was merely a different phase of existence. A great deal of what we think we know about Norse mythology comes from the pen of Snorri Sturluson, an Icelander of the 12th century, who was a converted Christian. The books he wrote are all tainted with Christian ideas and cannot be trusted to give a true picture.

This is a good resource for Norse and Germani ideas of the afterlife.

http://norse-mythology.org/cosmology...orlds/helheim/
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Old 06-09-2016, 12:55 PM   #55
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Blacky, I concur that the concept of Hell does not appear in the OT and the subsequent Christian concept of Hell arose partly from Greek ideas and partly from Egyptian ideas of what happened to the damned after death. The Lake of Fire is also an Egyptian belief. The difference between the Christian and the Egyptian idea of damnation is that the Egyptians believed only the wicked were damned. Christianity taught that unbelievers, good or wicked, were damned.

You are wrong in believing that the Norse had a similar concept of Hell as a place of punishment. They didn't. Helheim was merely a different phase of existence. A great deal of what we think we know about Norse mythology comes from the pen of Snorri Sturluson, an Icelander of the 12th century, who was a converted Christian. The books he wrote are all tainted with Christian ideas and cannot be trusted to give a true picture.

This is a good resource for Norse and Germani ideas of the afterlife.

http://norse-mythology.org/cosmology...orlds/helheim/
Christianity does not teach and has never taught that both the wicked and innocent are damned.

If you see my new thread about 'Gehenna' you will find out that the early Christians believed that to be Cremated was to be sent to Hell.
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:33 AM   #56
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That should read "to" Molech.

The Sacred Cow of the Egyptians... Hathor the Womb of the Sun.

Here is how we know Moloch is the Golden Calf...

Amos 5:25
"Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel?"


So here we see it's referring to Moses and the 40 years of wandering.

That is of course where the Sin of the Golden Calf occurred.

Amos 5:26
"But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves"


So Moloch is the Golden Calf... most likely the Egyptian Goddess Hathor or the Womb Goddess.

In other words... Reincarnation.

This is what the Church is hiding from everyone with there 'Hell Fire' teachings.
I very much doubt that Molech is the Golden Calf or that the verse from Amos referred to the time of wandering in the desert. Amos was a prophet who preached to the northern kingdom of Israel and there is said to have been a Calf cult in that land, specifically at Dan and Bethel. King Jereboam set up sanctuaries at Dan and Bethel so that people would not have to go all the way to Jerusalem in order to worship their God.

The golden calves of Israel were not necessarily idols since they are thought to have performed the same functions in Israel as the cherubim did at the Temple in Judah. They were vehicles for Yahweh. It was quite common in the ancient Near East for Gods to be shown above an animal and as the religion of Judah and Israel prohibited the portrayal of Yahweh they had to make do with the animals.

It is my belief that the story of the golden calf of Moses time was inserted into the Bible by scribes in Judah in order to emphasise the supposed idolatry of the northern kingdom. There was intense rivalry between the two kingdoms and much of the Bible is written from the point of view of the kingdom of Judah. As they were the only people to return from captivity they could write and edit the Bible to suit themselves.

You quoted Amos 5:26 from the KJV but it is a mistake to take the words of just one translation literally.

“But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.”

The NIV reads:

“You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god which you made for yourselves.”

The word translated as ‘Moloch’ in the Hebrew is ‘Melek’ which just means ‘king’ and there is no reason to suppose that the god Moloch, of which no trace has ever been found, is referred to here. Certainly not in context of the escape from Egypt since Egypt has never been connected with such a god. As for Chiun it is thought that the planet Saturn is indicated and that too has no connection with Egypt but is Babylonian.

Why do you imagine that the Israelites, coming out of Egypt, would bring the worship of Hathor with them? As far as I am aware there are only 2 direct references of a golden calf.

In Pyramid Text 485a Pepi I is described as a “calf of gold” and in 729a the king is described as a calf of gold who is a nursling of “the great wild cow”. There is also the representation of the sun as a bull calf being born of Hathor.

Would the Israelites be aware of this? And why Hathor instead of any other Egyptian Deity?

Hathor had a son called Ihy, the bull calf and amusingly there are representations of a man carrying a calf, identified with Ihy, on his shoulders across a stream thus enticing the rest of the herd to follow. Amusing, because the Israelites had just crossed over water and supposedly erected a golden image of a calf.

I really don’t follow your argument that the golden calf story is about reincarnation, a concept the Israelites never believed in. Nor did the Egyptians.
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Old 08-09-2016, 12:28 PM   #57
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Christianity does not teach and has never taught that both the wicked and innocent are damned.
Are you sure about that?

Jesus said in John 14:6:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

In other words faith is the only way to God. Also Luke 13:24 warns that only a very few people will be saved. Indeed I have recently read an artice that believes there are only about 100 Christians alive who are truly saved. The rest are damned.

Are you not aware that goodness according to mens' belief is not goodness according to God in the Bible? The Bible says everyone has sinned and therefore everyone is due for damnation but belief in Jesus can save a person from that. So a person who has spent their life helping people complelely unselfishly and trying to live as good a life as possible, even if they lose their life in saving others, is not good in God's eyes but is a foul sinner.

That is the teaching of the Bible and of the Church.

Quote:
If you see my new thread about 'Gehenna' you will find out that the early Christians believed that to be Cremated was to be sent to Hell.
Cremation was forbidden in the early Church for many reasons, one of which was that the Romans and Greeks cremated their dead so it was considered a Pagan custom. Also Jesus had risen bodily from the dead as all Christians hoped to be.

Did you know that the word 'cemetery' comes from the Greek 'koimetarion' which means 'sleeping place'?






.
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:53 PM   #58
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I really don’t follow your argument that the golden calf story is about reincarnation, a concept the Israelites never believed in. Nor did the Egyptians.
This is where your research technique differs from mine.

Asking the Israelites or the Egyptians what there rituals and symbols mean, is like asking a Mason what their symbols and rituals mean.

Do you really think One will receive Truth?

Of course not.

Example:

Ask a Mason what the Square and Compass means and they will say something like "Squaring One's actions and circumscribing One's desires".

Yeah right.

Ask the Word of God what they mean and One will get Truth...

Daniel 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay"


Big difference.

BTW...
I only use KJV.

The other translations I see being used in this thread are false interpretations.

When One uses the KJV, the pattern becomes obvious.

Although I must admit, some of these newer translations are tempting to use...

Amos 4:1 (New Living Translation)
Listen to me, you fat cows living in Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy, and who are always calling to your husbands, "Bring us another drink!"


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Old 08-09-2016, 06:54 PM   #59
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This is where your research technique differs from mine.

Asking the Israelites or the Egyptians what there rituals and symbols mean, is like asking a Mason what their symbols and rituals mean.
I didn't ask any ancient Israelites or Egyptians about their rituals etc because they are all dead and I'm not clairvoyant.

'
Quote:
Do you really think One will receive Truth?

Of course not.

Example:

Ask a Mason what the Square and Compass means and they will say something like "Squaring One's actions and circumscribing One's desires".

Yeah right.

Ask the Word of God what they mean and One will get Truth..
Really? Do you speak Hebrew and Koine Greek?.

Quote:
Daniel 2:43
"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay"


Big difference.
Don't see the relevance of this at all.

Quote:
BTW...
I only use KJV.

The other translations I see being used in this thread are false interpretations.

When One uses the KJV, the pattern becomes obvious.
Som you are a KJV Onlyist? I should have guessed. The KJV is based on the Masoretic Text which theologians like to argue is the pure, uncorrupted copy of the original Hebrew manuscripts. They are lying through their teeth,

The Masoretes may have made it a rule to copy perfectly the texts they used but if the texts they used were corrupt then they were copying corrupted texts. And this is what they were doing.

"Tannaitic sources mention several passages of Scripture in which the conclusion is inevitable that the ancient reading must have differed from that of the present text. "

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/ar.../10465-masorah

If there ever was an original Hebrew text then it was changed when vowel points were inserted into the text and these vowel points were inserted according to an oral tradition.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica writing about an early Biblical scholar Louis Cappell says:

"As a Hebrew scholar, he concluded that the vowel points and accents were not an original part of Hebrew, but were inserted by the Masorete Jews of Tiberias, not earlier then the 5th Century AD, and that the primitive Hebrew characters are Aramaic and were substituted for the more ancient at the time of the captivity. . . The various readings in the Old Testament Text and the differences between the ancient versions and the Masoretic Text convinced him that the integrity of the Hebrew text as held by Protestants, was untenable.”

Then there is the question of the differences between the LXX, the DSS, the Samaritan Pentateuch etc. How to account for these? The major differences
occur in the Book of Jeremiah which is 20% longer in the Masoretic than it is in the LXX and the text appears in a different order Why? Did someone add chapters to Jeremiah in the Masoretic or did someone cut chapters in the LXX? Or were they perhaps working from different Hebrew manuscripst in which case the next question is - which is the original?

And dont say the Masoretic because Jesus and the apostles were familiar with the LXX and quoted from it.

What about Psalm 145 which is an acrostic psalm where each verse begins with the next letter of the Hebrew alphabet. In the Aleppo Codex the first verse begins with the letter aleph, the second with the beyt, the third with the gimel, and so on. Verse 13 begins with the letter ?, the 13th letter of the Hebrew alphabet; the next verse begins with the letter ?, the 15th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. There is no verse beginning with the 14th letter ? (nun).

Why is there no verse 14 in the Masoretic Text yet it occurs in the LXX? Modern copies of this have renumbered the verses but you can see the error here where verse 14 in the NIV has been tagged onto the end of verse 13 as an extra sentence which is missing in the KJV.

http://biblehub.com/psalms/145-13.htm

If you still think the KJV is inerrant how do you account for the differences (and I have only mentioned one or two).

Quote:
lthough I must admit, some of these newer translations are tempting to use...

Amos 4:1 (New Living Translation)
Listen to me, you fat cows living in Samaria, you women who oppress the poor and crush the needy, and who are always calling to your husbands, "Bring us another drink!"


Of course radical feminism is taboo in the Bible. The idea of a man bringing his wife a drink is abominable.

Notice how some Christian sites resort to lying about the status of women, such as this one:

"Eve's curse has resulted in the virtual subjugation of women ever since. Until the Enlightenment in the 18th century, women had few rights, if any. Fathers sold their daughters into slavery or wed them to the highest bidder. Wives existed to give the husband pleasure and sons and to keep the house. Many societies insisted that women be veiled in public, and some considered it a criminal act for a woman to walk out of her house without a chaperone. In short, a woman was chattel.

Not every society was this strict. Because of God's law, Israel was one of the most enlightened in this area. Israelite women had certain rights of inheritance, and they could even own land and run businesses (Proverbs 31:16, 24), situations unheard of in other nations."

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/...mans-World.htm

Notice how they don't mention that women could be stoned to death for losing their virginity or for committing adultery or that these rights of inheritance only applied where there were no men to inherit That's really enlightened! Notice how they have completely ignored Pagan Egypt where women really were free and could do everything that men could, hold down jobs, run businesses, go to court under their own name. have a profession such as doctors and obstetricians, divorce a bad husband etc. Now that was an enlightened country!
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Old 08-09-2016, 09:56 PM   #60
blackyblue
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Originally Posted by rapunzel View Post
Are you sure about that?

Jesus said in John 14:6:

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

In other words faith is the only way to God. Also Luke 13:24 warns that only a very few people will be saved. Indeed I have recently read an artice that believes there are only about 100 Christians alive who are truly saved. The rest are damned.

Are you not aware that goodness according to mens' belief is not goodness according to God in the Bible? The Bible says everyone has sinned and therefore everyone is due for damnation but belief in Jesus can save a person from that. So a person who has spent their life helping people complelely unselfishly and trying to live as good a life as possible, even if they lose their life in saving others, is not good in God's eyes but is a foul sinner.

That is the teaching of the Bible and of the Church.



Cremation was forbidden in the early Church for many reasons, one of which was that the Romans and Greeks cremated their dead so it was considered a Pagan custom. Also Jesus had risen bodily from the dead as all Christians hoped to be.

Did you know that the word 'cemetery' comes from the Greek 'koimetarion' which means 'sleeping place'?






.
You mention John 14:6 when Jesus is making his parting death speech and you conclude from those words that everyone else is damned.
Where about does it say everyone else is damned? as those are your words.

You also miss out verse 2, where it says "In My Father’s house are many rooms."

Now the mansions of Rastafari are based on John 14:2 and believe the Mansions hold different levels of reward.


Or, what about verses 7,8,9,10 where Jesus says he is the father and the father is him, and that it is not even him speaking, but the father through him?


Above all, where does it say everyone else is damned to hell?
You quoted a single verse that had a total of 19 words, yet you somehow managed to attribute 46 words to describe how that verse was condemning people to Hell, despite the fact that nowhere did the verse say anything like this, and nor does Luke 13:24, as i explain in my next post!
Infact, you have completely and utterly misunderstood Luke 13 totally and you take a quote out of the chapter before the person you are quoting has even finished what he is saying!
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Last edited by blackyblue; 09-09-2016 at 04:13 AM.
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