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Old 04-09-2016, 09:12 PM   #21
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No Chunky.

The Gospels of Luke are Greek '?? ???? ?????? ??????????'.

I already know that Greeks believe in Hell.

However i wanting you to show me where the Hebrews believed in Hell.
I'm not going to play your games. Read my sig and you will understand why. It's not worth my time.
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The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

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Old 04-09-2016, 09:15 PM   #22
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I used to be for my sins, pardon the pun, A Mormon, not a moron in case someone tries that one.
Ask the missionaries or the church and they will give you what Is a Hebrew bible.

I have converted a few in my day into seeing what are sons of Levi.
Well i am unreligious and perfect for the job of getting to the bottom of this because i could not give two hoots if Jesus really did condemn everyone to hell.

Just want to get to the bottom of it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:17 PM   #23
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I'm not going to play your games. Read my sig and you will understand why. It's not worth my time.
I began a thread saying that Hell is a Greek concept dating back to 400bc and you presented me with the Gospels of Luke which are Greek.

We all know that Christianity became Romanised.
I have a thread about it on "when did England become unconquered".
That was about the brainwash of the NT with their paganised concepts of Hel and Tartarus.

However the OT was the Hebrew bible, not the New Testament, so therefor you need to show me something from the Hebrew bible.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:25 PM   #24
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I began a thread saying that Hell is a Greek concept dating back to 400bc and you presented me with the Gospels of Luke which are Greek.

We all know that Christianity became Romanised.

However the OT was the Hebrew bible, not the New Testament, so therefor you need to show me something from the Hebrew bible.
You started a thread asking to show where hell is mentioned in the bible and stated that hell is "not a concept gathered from the bible". I shown that the concept is indeed biblical, so you shifted the goalposts.

I have nothing more to say, there is no need to, so I'm not playing your games.
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Being religious is like being in an abusive relationship. God says - obey me: don't love anyone else: I know what you're thinking: if you leave me I will punish you: you're a terrible person without me: you'll never find anyone as good as me: don't listen to anyone who doesn't understand us: of course I love you!

The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

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Old 04-09-2016, 09:29 PM   #25
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You started a thread asking to show where hell is mentioned in the bible and stated that hell is "not a concept gathered from the bible". I shown that the concept is indeed biblical, so you shifted the goalposts.

I have nothing more to say, there is no need to, so I'm not playing your games.
Ok, so it is mentioned in the Greek bible.

Now can you show me any reference from the Hebrew bible?
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:31 PM   #26
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Ok, so it is mentioned in the Greek bible.

Now can you show me any reference from the Hebrew bible?
I have no wish to play chess with pigeons.
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The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:33 PM   #27
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Default So We Can Conclude That Hell Is 100% a Greek Concept?

I think that we can conclude Hell is 100% a Greek concept?

We have the Greek mythology of Tartarus dating back to 400bc
And the Gospels of Luke. or 'Loukãs' as was his Greek name
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There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

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Old 04-09-2016, 09:35 PM   #28
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I think that we can conclude Hell is 100% a Greek concept?
You're free to conclude what you want, as you normally do.
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The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 09:38 PM   #29
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You're free to conclude what you want, as you normally do.
Well if you disagree that it is a Greek concept, then who do you believe this concept comes from?

You are aware that Loukãs was Greek? right?
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There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

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Old 04-09-2016, 09:39 PM   #30
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Well if you disagree that it is a Greek concept, then who do you believe this concept comes from?

You are aware that Loukãs was Greek? right?
Which bit of "I'm not playing chess with pigeons" didn't you understand?
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The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:11 PM   #31
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Checkmate.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:17 PM   #32
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Default Tartarus was mentioned once in the New Testament

4 For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, and delivered them, being kept for judgment;
http://biblehub.com/blb/2_peter/2.htm


This is from the Berean Literal Bible

This is the best bible to use for literal Greek translations of the New testament.


This was also most likely written by Peters associate Silas, as Peter could not write in Greek, only Silas could.
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Is it my fault if i tell people to go jump off a bridge that some dumb asses actually go jump!? - John Strangis 28/12/13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

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Old 05-09-2016, 11:19 AM   #33
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Obviously, this is nothing to do with hell.

Luke 16:19-31King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...31&version=KJV

Not these verses.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topic...-bible-verses/

The Christians are the men that will not be blamed for nothing.

Hi Chunky.

Where it says 'hell' in verse 23 I think it should say Hades ....the kJV is wrong by using hell there....I'm actually not sure that translators were intentionally wrong because our understanding of the word hell has changed over the last few centuries.

As Blackyblue mentioned in his posts our Old English meaning of hell simply meant to be covered ...as in the ground with earth ....so perhaps the translator of the KJV never meant to imply a fiery place? It's just our meaning of the word has altered to make things even more complicated

http://biblehub.com/greek/ade__86.htm

I had a quick look as regards the parable of Lazarus and the first thing I found was this ....


https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tool...-of-heaven-and


I am in no way affiliated to the organisation that wrote it and don't even know who they are but I agree with the article especially where we read that Jesus was drawing on the contemporary beliefs of the Pharisees whom he was addressing..... which had become influenced by Greek philosophy.....they had started to compartmentalise Hades into a Heaven and Hell scenario and I believe he is using their beliefs to illustrate his point but I do not believe that he taught that we go to either heaven or a burning place of torment when we die.

Whilst we know that both Pharisees and Sadducees were claiming to be the upright holders and practisers of The Law they endorsed ....we see how far both sects were from it in words and deeds ....and they disagreed with each other immensely as regards the state and future of the dead.

Those early Hebrew's idea of Sheol and their beliefs as regards the dead and the soul are what I am particulary interested in as in my research of it there is a radical difference to the beliefs that later developed with the Pharisees and Saducees and also what the Church has taught us.

The Hebrews don't seem to have believed in an immortal soul as the Egyptians and Greeks and others did .....they believed we all went to Sheol to await the resurrection ....nothing went on in Sheol and both the good and bad went there at death.

Last edited by chevron; 05-09-2016 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:55 PM   #34
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4 For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Tartarus, in chains of gloomy darkness, and delivered them, being kept for judgment;
http://biblehub.com/blb/2_peter/2.htm


This is from the Berean Literal Bible

This is the best bible to use for literal Greek translations of the New testament.


This was also most likely written by Peters associate Silas, as Peter could not write in Greek, only Silas could.
I am going to hedge my bets here and say this:

Whatever Hebrew scripture or oral tradition Luke was translating from, it would have only said: "For if God did not spare the angels having sinned, but having cast them down to Sheol."

The concept of Sheol being a place of 'in chains of gloomy darkness', is a Greek Hellenstic concept.

Unfortunately no original Hebrew sources can be found for the new testament, therefor all we have is the old testament, and i dont think the old testament said anything about Sheol being anything other than a graveyard.


Likewise, there may be no Hebrew source or oral tradition that spoke of this story whatsoever, and the whole chapter in it's entirety could be a Greek Hellenstic creation.


Quite simply, we dont have any proof that Luke was copying from Hebrew scriptures!! So it is a Greek creation
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There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

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Old 05-09-2016, 03:57 PM   #35
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Hi Chunky.

Where it says 'hell' in verse 23 I think it should say Hades ....the kJV is wrong by using hell there....I'm actually not sure that translators were intentionally wrong because our understanding of the word hell has changed over the last few centuries.

As Blackyblue mentioned in his posts our Old English meaning of hell simply meant to be covered ...as in the ground with earth ....so perhaps the translator of the KJV never meant to imply a fiery place? It's just our meaning of the word has altered to make things even more complicated

http://biblehub.com/greek/ade__86.htm

I had a quick look as regards the parable of Lazarus and the first thing I found was this ....


https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tool...-of-heaven-and


I am in no way affiliated to the organisation that wrote it and don't even know who they are but I agree with the article especially where we read that Jesus was drawing on the contemporary beliefs of the Pharisees whom he was addressing..... which had become influenced by Greek philosophy.....they had started to compartmentalise Hades into a Heaven and Hell scenario and I believe he is using their beliefs to illustrate his point but I do not believe that he taught that we go to either heaven or a burning place of torment when we die.

Whilst we know that both Pharisees and Sadducees were claiming to be the upright holders and practisers of The Law they endorsed ....we see how far both sects were from it in words and deeds ....and they disagreed with each other immensely as regards the state and future of the dead.

Those early Hebrew's idea of Sheol and their beliefs as regards the dead and the soul are what I am particulary interested in as in my research of it there is a radical difference to the beliefs that later developed with the Pharisees and Saducees and also what the Church has taught us.

The Hebrews don't seem to have believed in an immortal soul as the Egyptians and Greeks and others did .....they believed we all went to Sheol to await the resurrection ....nothing went on in Sheol and both the good and bad went there at death.
I really can't be arsed with fundie word games. But I will say that there are lots of things the Hebrews didn't believe in that Christians do, if they didn't you'd all be practising Judaism instead, so the argument that Hebrews believed this or that is really rather silly. Whether they believed in something or not is as irrelevant as what the Eskimos beliefs were when discussing Christianity.
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The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

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Old 05-09-2016, 04:15 PM   #36
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I really can't be arsed with fundie word games. But I will say that there are lots of things the Hebrews didn't believe in that Christians do, if they didn't you'd all be practising Judaism instead, so the argument that Hebrews believed this or that is really rather silly. Whether they believed in something or not is as irrelevant as what the Eskimos beliefs were when discussing Christianity.
But it was not originally Christians that believed this.

The Greeks believed this, and due to the Hellenstic empire and the period of Hellenisation that saw the Greek empire rule half the known world, they had the unique advantage of being able to write the new testament.

Also Celts also already believed in Hel.

Hel is also a place of eternal torture in ancient norse pagan mythology.

You are failing to see that it was the Pagans that put their concepts of Hell in to the bible, and it was not the Christian Cults of the holy lands that did this, unless of course you can find any original Hebrew source from a Christian cult that says such!

It is important to get these things correct aswell.
Because we would not want Greeks and Britons trying to blame Jews for things that in actual facts Greeks and Britons are guilty of.
Although you may not see the importance.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

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Old 05-09-2016, 04:20 PM   #37
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But it was not originally Christians that believed this.

The Greeks believed this, and due to the Hellenstic empire and the period of Hellenisation that saw the Greek empire rule half the known world, they had the unique advantage of being able to write the new testament.

Also Celts also already believed in Hel.

Hel is also a place of eternal torture in ancient norse pagan mythology.

You are failing to see that it was the Pagans that put their concepts of Hell in to the bible, and it was not the Christian Cults of the holy lands that did this, unless of course you can find any original Hebrew source from a Christian cult that says such!
As a further note:

It would be interesting to have a look at when exactly the Hellenstic empire turned in to the Roman empire.

There is infact no concrete point in history when this actually happened.

The change from the empire being known as the Greek Hellenstic empire to the Roman empire more appears to have been a slow one that happened over time, and it was more of a morph than anything else.

It really would appear to be pretty much the same empire.

Unless of course, anyone is able to show me when exactly this happened.
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Is it my fault if i tell people to go jump off a bridge that some dumb asses actually go jump!? - John Strangis 28/12/13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

Last edited by blackyblue; 05-09-2016 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:48 PM   #38
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Just want to get to the bottom of it.
Do you?

Then why not focus on the Lake of Fire?

Hell is thrown into it.

If you Truly are wanting to "get to the bottom of it", then the Lake of Fire is your next step.

Hell is irrelevant at this point.

Do you even know where the concept for the Lake of Fire came from?
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Old 05-09-2016, 04:58 PM   #39
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Do you?

Then why not focus on the Lake of Fire?

Hell is thrown into it.

If you Truly are wanting to "get to the bottom of it", then the Lake of Fire is your next step.

Hell is irrelevant at this point.

Do you even know where the concept for the Lake of Fire came from?
Sorry i dont see the relevence.

Obviously you have seen the Lake of Fire mentioned in the The Book of Revelation of the 'new testament' and believe it comes from there.

However you are wrong.

The lake of fire also appears in 'Plato's Phaedo', and is explicitly identified with Tartarus.

There are however 'the Coffin Texts' found in ancient Egypt that talk about threatening the wicked with fiery rivers and lakes and fire demons.

So yes, i have no issue with a belief in literal hell predating the Greeks, going all the way back to ancient egypt.
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Is it my fault if i tell people to go jump off a bridge that some dumb asses actually go jump!? - John Strangis 28/12/13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZqXMQneVsg

There is no defence against an evil which only the victims and the perpetrators know exists.

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Old 05-09-2016, 05:09 PM   #40
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Sorry i dont see the relevence.
So then allow me to Illuminate you.

The concept of the Lake of Fire comes from the valley of the children of Hinnom.

In other words the Old Testament...

2 Kings 23:10
"And he defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech"


Thus the Lake of Fire is not the end either now is it?

Those tossed into it go THROUGH it.

Thus it is a Portal.

A Portal to an Entity in fact.

What does that Entity represent?
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