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Old 19-06-2018, 01:55 AM   #21
alisa2
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Who is responsible then?
The character in the play. Some characters act more responsible than other characters.
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Old 19-06-2018, 07:30 AM   #22
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The character in the play. Some characters act more responsible than other characters.
A character in a play is causally responsible for the actions of a person? That doesn't make sense.

Even if we admit that we are all characters in a play there must be something causally responsible for the play, i.e. someone writing the play other than the characters in the play. Some people might say that we write our own characters, but what Jourdain is saying is that he isn't writing his character. So who is? For him to be saying anything at all without cause for him to say it is impossible. He'd be catatonic.

If he is attributing his actions, abrogating responsibility to something named "I Am", but that there is no thought involved, then who or what is causally responsible for this "I Am" that has no thought but somehow controls the actions and speech of persons/characters like Jourdain? It just doesn't make any sense at all.

Unless "I Am" is AI. But even if this I Am character were artificial intelligence there would still have to be something to have programmed it. Something with enough thought process to be able to do that. And Jourdain says he's submitted to this thoughtless programmed controller that's spewing out his rhetoric for him, and that rhetoric is suggesting that you do the same. Well, it might be reasonable to ask why?
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Old 19-06-2018, 04:03 PM   #23
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Get the book I Hope You Die Soon by Richard Sylvester. 118 pgs. That'll tell you who's responsible. LOL

excerpt from pg 35

Language

A word is not the phenomenon it names. A description of the scent of the mown grass is not the scent of the mown grass. Words can only point to liberation and even then only in a misleading way. A description of liberation, which in any case is an impossiblity, could not convey the scent of liberation.

Words can only describe phenomenon. Liberation is neither a phenomenon nor a collection of phenomenon.

Nevertheless if there is to be a discourse about anything, including liberation, it can only be carried on in words.

But there is also silence. Just as here the black print only makes sense because it appears against a white background.

All language is suspect. But in this book the following words should be regarded with especial suspicion and always be read as if in quotation marks because the assumption contained in each of them is false.

Mind--person--past--present--now--then--time--place--here--there--I--you--me--choice--freedom

The word 'I' in the sentence “I am happy” has exactly the same force as the word 'It' in the sentence “It is raining.” There is not 'it'. There is no 'I'. Rain simply falls. Happiness simply arises.

[rest omitted]

Last edited by alisa2; 19-06-2018 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 19-06-2018, 08:44 PM   #24
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Get the book I Hope You Die Soon by Richard Sylvester. 118 pgs. That'll tell you who's responsible. LOL

excerpt from pg 35

Language

A word is not the phenomenon it names. A description of the scent of the mown grass is not the scent of the mown grass. Words can only point to liberation and even then only in a misleading way. A description of liberation, which in any case is an impossiblity, could not convey the scent of liberation.

Words can only describe phenomenon. Liberation is neither a phenomenon nor a collection of phenomenon.

Nevertheless if there is to be a discourse about anything, including liberation, it can only be carried on in words.

But there is also silence. Just as here the black print only makes sense because it appears against a white background.

All language is suspect. But in this book the following words should be regarded with especial suspicion and always be read as if in quotation marks because the assumption contained in each of them is false.

Mind--person--past--present--now--then--time--place--here--there--I--you--me--choice--freedom

The word 'I' in the sentence “I am happy” has exactly the same force as the word 'It' in the sentence “It is raining.” There is not 'it'. There is no 'I'. Rain simply falls. Happiness simply arises.

[rest omitted]
I'm well aware of who or what is responsible.

And I understand how to nullify.

And I use the word I because I choose to.

Who is the I that is choosing? Blah blah blah.
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Old 19-06-2018, 09:32 PM   #25
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I'm well aware of who or what is responsible.
Me too. I am. So responsible in fact that I work in a people business and wish they all would die soon, seriously.


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And I understand how to nullify.
I do too.


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And I use the word I because I choose to.
I don't because I don't believe I have a choice. I am who I am. lol

The book doesn't persuade me because know I am already liberated. The book doesn't liberate you because you already are. If you aren't, then you probably will have some bad things to say about it because you were probably trying to get something you thought the book could give you- liberation.

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Old 20-06-2018, 02:27 AM   #26
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Me too. I am. So responsible in fact that I work in a people business and wish they all would die soon, seriously.




I do too.




I don't because I don't believe I have a choice. I am who I am. lol

The book doesn't persuade me because know I am already liberated. The book doesn't liberate you because you already are. If you aren't, then you probably will have some bad things to say about it because you were probably trying to get something you thought the book could give you- liberation.
Liberation is self beyond cause and effect, and effectively makes for choice.

.

Last edited by white light; 20-06-2018 at 02:28 AM.
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Old 20-06-2018, 02:34 PM   #27
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Liberation is self beyond cause and effect, and effectively makes for choice.

.
ok, if you say so.
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Old 20-06-2018, 11:32 PM   #28
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ok, if you say so.
To exist in this physical realm is to be possessed. I’d rather be possessed of my own thoughts and logical reasoning. That at least affords me some choice rather than the mere illusion of choice.

One might ask what’s the difference? The difference is that I can ruminate on what the difference may be.
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Old 22-06-2018, 08:16 PM   #29
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To exist in this physical realm is to be possessed. I’d rather be possessed of my own thoughts and logical reasoning. That at least affords me some choice rather than the mere illusion of choice.

One might ask what’s the difference? The difference is that I can ruminate on what the difference may be.
It's actually the other way around. The illusion of choice is the only choice. Choice is an illusion. The illusion is the story which includes having a name, address, phone number, job, social security number, knowing your age, etc. Without the illusion there is no story, as well as no choice. Within the story there is apparent choice. In either case (within or without the story) I have no choice about any of it.

Remember this guy:


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Old 22-06-2018, 09:08 PM   #30
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To exist in this physical realm is to be possessed. I’d rather be possessed of my own thoughts and logical reasoning. That at least affords me some choice rather than the mere illusion of choice.

One might ask what’s the difference? The difference is that I can ruminate on what the difference may be.
Where do these possession of thoughts came from?
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Old 23-06-2018, 05:57 AM   #31
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It's actually the other way around. The illusion of choice is the only choice. Choice is an illusion. The illusion is the story which includes having a name, address, phone number, job, social security number, knowing your age, etc. Without the illusion there is no story, as well as no choice. Within the story there is apparent choice. In either case (within or without the story) I have no choice about any of it.

Remember this guy:

With respect, if the guy in the vid was able to make and drink coffee then he was still operating within cause and effect. The fact that he wasn't conscious of any thought process merely means that his unconscious mind had taken over, and therefore he hadn't reached a state of non duality.

My experience of making the unconscious conscious to the point where there was absolutely no separation whatsoever, was to experience the void, where indeed all cause and effect was nullified and time on longer existed. I wasn't able to move. I couldn't even move my eyeballs, 'cos there was no cause to generate that effect. So, I would not have been able to make and drink coffee.

And this is the point that I am making, that when most people talk about non duality they are not really talking about non duality as they are still operating within duality to be able to talk about it. Thus the unconscious has taken them over and they are effectively being robotic. It's not a criticism though, but an observation. The void is the only true non duality.

The unconscious is still part of the universe and comes from the same place as the conscious mind does, so there is nothing wrong with it. You might call it god, or the devil depending on what it chooses for you to do in your robotic state. And people do. But it is really neither.

So, yes, whilst all choice is ultimately illusion 'cos it all comes from the same place, there is choice within the illusion, lives lived, and within the illusion submitting to the unconscious eliminates any of that choice for the individual. Whereas keeping a dialogue between conscious and unconscious allows for more conscious choice.

So, whilst you are sorta correct, I am against the notion of submission to the unconscious, and that's my choice.

Note - it's also impossible to talk about this stuff without encountering paradoxes. I could read what I've just written and pick it apart or tear it to shreds. All part of the wonder of existence.

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Where do these possession of thoughts came from?
All choices, all thoughts, all actions come from cause and effect. It is that which possesses us.

.

Last edited by white light; 23-06-2018 at 06:30 AM.
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