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Old 12-06-2013, 10:47 AM   #41
herzmeister
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In your example, The State has stolen the property.

Which is no surprise as this is its purpose.


That's a contradiction, same one as above.


Anyone claiming to own part of anothers property without their express consent has extremely low IQ or is mentally ill.
Very common.
No, again: property is just a piece of paper.

Say you own a piece of land with a house far away. What you're gonna do against squatters? Today, you'd call the police, right? Supplied by the state.

And are these squatters mentally ill? No, maybe they're just poor. Because they weren't lucky enough to inherit land just like you. That's how social strains come about in the first place.

Or, to put things in another way: If you (really) own some land, then you are the state of that land. And you're a dictator even at that. There's no essential difference between your idea of property and a state.

At the end of the day, without a state, you can only call property what you can defend yourself. Just how Max Stirner, an individualist anarchist (even more individualist than ol' Ayn Rand) puts it:

"Whoever knows how to take, to defend, the thing, to him belongs property."

This is much more logical than the US Libertarian view. And once you understand it, you'll see that a more co-operative and syndicalist way of self-organizing is just more rational and more economical.
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:09 AM   #42
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You're up against human nature though.
Before long resentments arise because some think they are doing more than others.
Utopian communities have been notoriously short lived usually for that very reason.
This is why we the human animals need to swear an oath to each other not to behave in this way. I call it the social contract

There will be failings after all none of us are perfect but human nature what is that anyway, just a response to present environment and conditioning for most.

I imagine a new way just like the op, in a new environment free of usuary and slavery, all are paid equal all are citizens with equal rights. People will behave properly if given a chance.
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:12 AM   #43
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The idea is not new, but 'the times' may have changed enough now to enable it, or the conscience of the people have progressed enough to finally accept it as a birth right for every Human.

Basic Income. What does it mean? It means just that, an income that is guaranteed to you whether you work or not, meaning without conditions.

The main debate against it is; "that people wouldn't work if they don't have to".

I personally find an idea that people wouldn't do anything if they are not scared for their survival ridiculous beyond measure. A type of brainwashing that has held our civilization in a tight grip for eons and it goes directly against the very basic human right, a right to live.

I would love to exist in a world that recognizes me an individual that can contribute to the society in its own way and without pressure. Having my basic need met are a sure motivator to get me to dedicate some of my free time on projects that can benefit me further and the society as a whole.

Basic Income, a new Human right

Unconditional Basic Income, a pettition
Great thread nice one, i wrote about this some while back you might be interested in my ideas in the following thread and of course the contributions of others....


How would you setup society given a chance?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239498
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:23 AM   #44
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No, again: property is just a piece of paper.
I don't know what that means.
In a Statist paradigm you can be given a piece of paper with a claim of ownership of property, it's conditional though as it's given by another body and so not really your property, more like an allowance.

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Say you own a piece of land with a house far away. What you're gonna do against squatters? Today, you'd call the police, right? Supplied by the state.
If you own something you are responsible for it.


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And are these squatters mentally ill? No, maybe they're just poor. Because they weren't lucky enough to inherit land just like you. That's how social strains come about in the first place.
Partially, the majority of "social strains" come from a belief in the legitimacy of a monopoly of force.
State fiat, taxation etc, is a much greater cause of this differential than people handing down wealth. If you're not offering something, not productive, then you must spend this wealth to survive, transferring it to the productive, or get in bed with The State.

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Or, to put things in another way: If you (really) own some land, then you are the state of that land. And you're a dictator even at that. There's no essential difference between your idea of property and a state.
You could say then I'm a dictator of my body, right.

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At the end of the day, without a state, you can only call property what you can defend yourself.
With the state you can't have any property, unless you have leverage over the state, and you cannot defend anything without permission.
In a free society property rights would be beneficial to all.
Have you ever looked into DRO's or other nonviolent proposals?


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Just how Max Stirner, an individualist anarchist (even more individualist than ol' Ayn Rand) puts it:
Rand was a statist, she never properly examined her grammar or subjected her assumptions to her logic, unfortunately.

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"Whoever knows how to take, to defend, the thing, to him belongs property."
Yeah, in an irrational, criminal society, this is effective.

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This is much more logical than the US Libertarian view. And once you understand it, you'll see that a more co-operative and syndicalist way of self-organizing is just more rational and more economical.
I don't know what you're referring to as "this".
Libertarianism is irrational though, no disagreement there.
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:48 AM   #45
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Okay first of all I want people to be on topic on this thread. Also I don't want to see calling names and similar disruptions, I'm on this forum for 4 years and honestly I'm tired of that bs.

This is not a discussion about Marxism and any other failed ideology.

This is a movement that is gaining momentum.

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@fishin43diqs

To pay people an income for sitting on their fat lazy butts, you have to take money from someone else. That is called theft.
Any yet we pay people to sit on their lazzy asses and type some figures on the screen and get a big fat check.

I'm being sarcastic on purpose. You want to lecture me on morals? What kind of morals exist on Wall Street for example? Or any big banks?

If you gonna bring morals in to discussion then be prepared to hear the other side of story. You know there is one right?
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:55 AM   #46
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Okay first of all I want people to be on topic on this thread.

Why have you not addressed the question of where this "income" is going to come from?
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:03 PM   #47
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Why have you not addressed the question of where this "income" is going to come from?
And who is in charge of money, me?

Again you have to allow me being sarcastic but its the only way I can defend myself on this forum. (Sadly)

The money will come from thin air of course just like how it always was. You want to imply that money is real?

The problem we have in the society is how the money is allocated, not the resources and labor. We have machines that have created surplus and yet nobody is even discussing that in the mass media. Heck we have plenty of resources that only need to be managed in a better way and people would have their basic need met.

How else are we to progress on this planet? Just like we were doing it before and today? Aren't we seeing backlash of those policies right now?
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:19 PM   #48
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:29 PM   #49
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I fail to see how is that relevant to the discussion here..?

This is about Basic Income and not about stateless society. State is irrelevant if we are discussing Human rights. No matter in which country you live on the planet you 'should' be allowed basic human rights. It shouldn't be political.

Lets stay on topic okay?
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:46 PM   #50
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The money will come from thin air of course just like how it always was. You want to imply that money is real?
The effect of money (State fiat currency) is real.
If I am forced into using a currency, have X amount in that currency, currency cabal doubles the amount of currency, I have effectively 50% of what I had in that currency.
This is theft.
You also need a violent repressive organisation to enforce the currency monopoly.

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The problem we have in the society is how the money is allocated, not the resources and labor.
The problem is masses accepting violent monopolistic organisations at the core of society. This stems from how children are abused and indoctrinated.

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We have machines that have created surplus and yet nobody is even discussing that in the mass media. Heck we have plenty of resources that only need to be managed in a better way and people would have their basic need met.

How else are we to progress on this planet?
We will progress when people accept that moral principles must be universal and non contradictory, when people start taking responsibility for themselves and understand that nothing good can come from creating a centralised power structure rooted in violence and abuse.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:51 PM   #51
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I fail to see how is that relevant to the discussion here..?

This is about Basic Income and not about stateless society. State is irrelevant if we are discussing Human rights. No matter in which country you live on the planet you 'should' be allowed basic human rights. It shouldn't be political.

Who decides what "human rights" are?
What are the defining characteristics of "human rights"?
Do you see that I have a right not to be a victim of criminal elements using violence against me and stealing my property?

Are you aware that "positive rights" conflict with "negative rights"?
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #52
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Basic Human rights are: to have a roof over your head, to have medical insurance, to have enough money to buy basics like food and clothing. Since technology has progressed enough, I would throw in there also right to have free internet access.

If you want a luxury, a car, boat or additional house you have to work for it.

Rights like freedom of speach and innocent untill proven guilt we already have today but are in danger of loosing. Those too are also basic rights, that our forefathers fought for in the past.

Now I'm tired of politics and will not discuss it ever again on this thread. However I'm willing to discuss technical feasibility of Basic Income and the financial system required to be put into place in order for it to work.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:17 PM   #53
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You could say then I'm a dictator of my body, right.
Right, if you can own your body it's because it's much easier to defend than a big ass amount of land you claim you own.

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Have you ever looked into DRO's or other nonviolent proposals?
And if you believe there can be private defense organizations, well then there'll also be Marxist organisations that claim that Earth belongs to everyone. And maybe they'll all battle each other until doomsday.

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Yeah, in an irrational, criminal society, this is effective.
I didn't want to make a moral point. I just want to look at things as what they fundamentally and logically are. What society makes out of it is another question.

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to have a roof over your head, to have medical insurance
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Rights like freedom of speach and innocent untill proven guilt
These are fundamentally different kinds of rights. "Freedom of speech" etc are simple rights, i.e. everybody can agree on. But demanding "a roof over your head" requires someone else to work for you. That's where it starts to be complicated. And this is what the other folks in the thread don't like. Because you have to take something away from someone (taxes) in order to give it to someone else.

That's the whole problem. I also have difficulties with trusting an organization (state) to enforce taxation and redistribution. If I barter my tomatoes with your carrots in Texas, and someone in Washington wants to know about that, that's where all the problems and totalitarianism starts. That's where all the centralization and bureaucracy comes in, and grows like a monster. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

You say machines have made everything easier. The problem is who owns the machines, and who distributes the products. Neither big corporations nor big governments are a pleasant possibilities.

However, I propose a syndicalist model as a solution, as said upthread.
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Old 12-06-2013, 02:40 PM   #54
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Your tomatoes and carrots are irrelevant since you have to pay a fortune to buy a house for yourself and take on any shitty job just to not go under. Only worse than that is full blow slavery.

Yes somebody needs to work and build the infrastructure. Who is arguing that? I only want to explain how with the basic income people would still be willing to do manual work, no less than right now.

People would have come to a realisation eventually that we all depend on each other and that society where certain groups of people are getting shafted continuously is not gonna work. At some point it will collapse and it will get ugly. And that is what we, society as a whole are trying to prevent by taking necessary measures
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:02 PM   #55
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It's Monday morning 8 am on the commune.
Spuds are ready for lifting and it's market day but half the members decide they would prefer painting T Shirts today.
Where do you go from there guys?
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:08 PM   #56
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you have to pay a fortune to buy a house for yourself
You can live in a hobbit home:



Or a biotectured EarthShip:



All easy to build within a man-year or so, but guess who makes housing nowadays so complicated, bureaucratic and expensive.

Then add permaculture and aquaponics for easy self-grown food, some solar energy, 3D printing etc to a pretty self-sustaining life. All your basic human needs satisfied. Would we still need a bureaucratic basic income then?

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People would have come to a realisation eventually that we all depend on each other
That's right, but that doesn't mean asking state bureaucrats to please please give us basic income is the way to do it. We have to organize it ourselves.

What would you prefer? You get basic income but also a barcode on your forehead (after all, cheating must be prevented, right? RIGHT?), or an independent, free, self-organized life?

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At some point it will collapse and it will get ugly.
Exactly!
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:32 PM   #57
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Basic Human rights are: to have a roof over your head, to have medical insurance, to have enough money to buy basics like food and clothing. Since technology has progressed enough, I would throw in there also right to have free internet access.
What about the right to your own property?
What about the right to not be stolen from by criminals?

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Now I'm tired of politics and will not discuss it ever again on this thread. However I'm willing to discuss technical feasibility of Basic Income and the financial system required to be put into place in order for it to work.
You're talking about stealing peoples property to manipulate society to your idea of what the world should be, it doesn't get any more political than that, perhaps you should stop posting in this thread so, or try and use another method to shut the discussion down.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:38 PM   #58
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Right, if you can own your body it's because it's much easier to defend than a big ass amount of land you claim you own.
So then,
If somebody stronger than I, or a group, were to overpower me and steal my kidney for example, by your standards I didn't own my kidney.

Even by todays incredibly low standards this would be theft, "illegal" , unlawful and criminal.
I think the concept of ownership is something different, that's why we have the concept of stealing.

What do you reckon?





A DRO is not a defense organisation by the way, closer to insurance but not quite.

http://lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux1.html
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:45 PM   #59
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It's Monday morning 8 am on the commune.
Spuds are ready for lifting and it's market day but half the members decide they would prefer painting T Shirts today.
Where do you go from there guys?
LSD and smelly hippy sex.
It's not all bad eh.
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Old 12-06-2013, 03:51 PM   #60
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Spuds won't get lifted though.
It's a nice idea all this stuff it just won't work too well in practice.
Those who are prepared to work tend not to be over keen on those who are work-averse.
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