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Old 11-06-2016, 05:04 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by cs lewis
The Christian says, 'Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger: well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. If that is so, I must take care, on the one hand, never to despise, or to be unthankful for, these earthly blessings, and on the other, never to mistake them for the something else of which they are only a kind of copy, or echo, or mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find till after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside; I must make it the main object of life to press on to that country and to help others to do the same.
I would guess that most of us on this forum feel like strangers.
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Old 11-06-2016, 06:51 PM   #102
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I don't think a person can really be compared... At least not just any person.

??

Why not?

I think it is quite easy to compare the morals attributed to a man to the morals attributed to the Gods.

Dawkins did just that with the Christian God.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Are you not able to judge good morals from poor ones?

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Old 11-06-2016, 07:53 PM   #103
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dawkins is wrong.
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Old 11-06-2016, 08:09 PM   #104
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dawkins is wrong.
Says one who idol worships a genocidal son murderer while siting upon his scapegoat whipping boy Jesus.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

You are immoral for doing so.

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Old 11-06-2016, 08:19 PM   #105
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Says one who idol worships a genocidal son murderer while siting upon his scapegoat whipping boy Jesus.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

You are immoral for doing so.

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DL
it is not immoral to willingly give up one's life in order to save another.
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Old 11-06-2016, 08:25 PM   #106
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it is not immoral to willingly give up one's life in order to save another.
I agree.

That has nothing to do with the Christian idea of Jesus' so called sacrifice.

Jesus clearly was not doing his will but the will of another.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

http://biblehub.com/luke/22-42.htm

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Old 11-06-2016, 08:33 PM   #107
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I agree.

That has nothing to do with the Christian idea of Jesus' so called sacrifice.

Jesus clearly was not doing his will but the will of another.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

http://biblehub.com/luke/22-42.htm

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DL
you're wrong, it is the christian idea of Yeshua's purpose:

matt 20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

that verse does not prove your point. Yeshua went to the cross willingly. the disciples even tried to prevent Yeshua from being arrested, to which He responded:

matt 26:53-54 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
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Old 11-06-2016, 09:25 PM   #108
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Have another drink, it will all become clear.
Pass the kool aid.
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The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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Old 11-06-2016, 10:35 PM   #109
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you're wrong, it is the christian idea of Yeshua's purpose:

matt 20:28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

that verse does not prove your point. Yeshua went to the cross willingly. the disciples even tried to prevent Yeshua from being arrested, to which He responded:

matt 26:53-54 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”
A ransom is a bribe.

Are you saying that God accepts bribes to change his justice from punishing the guilty to punishing the innocent and letting the guilty walk?

Are you saying you adore a judge that asks for and accepts bribes to alter his justice?

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Old 12-06-2016, 12:40 AM   #110
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A ransom is a bribe.

Are you saying that God accepts bribes to change his justice from punishing the guilty to punishing the innocent and letting the guilty walk?

Are you saying you adore a judge that asks for and accepts bribes to alter his justice?

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DL
the greek word used for "ransom" is "lutron", the definition of which doesn't say anything about a bribe:

Quote:
Originally Posted by strong's
#3083 λύτρον lutron {loo'-tron**

from G3089; TDNT - 4:328 & 4:340,543; n n

—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


1) the price for redeeming, ransom
1a) paid for slaves, captives
1b) for the ransom of life
2) to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins
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Old 12-06-2016, 12:13 PM   #111
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The last thing I would trust in a search for "truth" is a book from what at best seems like ignorant times. I am not a.sucker for poetry etc. I figure the universe or nature if you will, will tell you what you need to know. Nature does not lie. It just is. You could say its the true nature of the universe. That's my religion. Are there mysteries. Yep. So what? Some mans suppositions on the subject don't cut the cake. Especially when it runs counter to what I observe in nature.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:15 PM   #112
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the greek word used for "ransom" is "lutron", the definition of which doesn't say anything about a bribe:
They are synonymous and I note that yet again you dishonestly ignore the issue of you ridding your scapegoat into hell.

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Old 12-06-2016, 06:18 PM   #113
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The last thing I would trust in a search for "truth" is a book from what at best seems like ignorant times. I am not a.sucker for poetry etc. I figure the universe or nature if you will, will tell you what you need to know. Nature does not lie. It just is. You could say its the true nature of the universe. That's my religion. Are there mysteries. Yep. So what? Some mans suppositions on the subject don't cut the cake. Especially when it runs counter to what I observe in nature.
Actually, I think the ancients had many things correct, for their times, in terms of allegory and myth but any good that was in the bible was destroyed when Christians became idol worshipers and literal readers of myths.

Literal reading kills the original message that the scribes wanted us to think about.

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Old 12-06-2016, 06:38 PM   #114
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They are synonymous and I note that yet again you dishonestly ignore the issue of you ridding your scapegoat into hell.

Regards
DL
I've given you the definition of the greek term "lutron" and it doesn't mean what you're claiming. you're now arguing against the greek concordance.

I've already pointed out to you that Yeshua went to the cross willingly. Yeshua gave up His life for those he loved. there's nothing immoral or dishonest about it. I do understand that if you were to accept what the bible clearly says about the crucifixion it would completely invalidate your espoused view.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:44 PM   #115
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I've given you the definition of the greek term "lutron" and it doesn't mean what you're claiming. you're now arguing against the greek concordance.

I've already pointed out to you that Yeshua went to the cross willingly. Yeshua gave up His life for those he loved. there's nothing immoral or dishonest about it. I do understand that if you were to accept what the bible clearly says about the crucifixion it would completely invalidate your espoused view.
Yes their is you immoral dummy.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

And I gave you the quotes that refute your lies.

Repeating then does not do you credit.

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Old 12-06-2016, 06:51 PM   #116
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Yes their is you immoral dummy.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

And I gave you the quotes that refute your lies.

Repeating then does not do you credit.

Regards
DL
Yeshua willingly gave up His life to save those He loved. it was a gift.

1 peter 1:20 does not prove what you claim that it does. you are more interested in making accusations against christians and promoting your brand of gnosticism than you are in the truth of what the bible says.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:08 PM   #117
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it is not immoral to willingly give up one's life in order to save another.
no it's not. it's fucking stupid!!
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:11 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by logos880 View Post
Yeshua willingly gave up His life to save those He loved. it was a gift.

1 peter 1:20 does not prove what you claim that it does. you are more interested in making accusations against christians and promoting your brand of gnosticism than you are in the truth of what the bible says.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
so he loved the world more than his 'sun'.

he did this to bribe us into believing in him and then be rewarded with something no one can prove?


I tell you something, this 'god-thing' is one helluva salesman. has he got shares in koolaid too?
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Old 13-06-2016, 05:19 PM   #119
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it is not immoral to willingly give up one's life in order to save another.
When you put it like this it sounds quite noble but please do tell, what is he saving us from and what does he have in store for those he doesn't "save"?
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The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

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Old 13-06-2016, 08:35 PM   #120
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If jesus was real, he was like conspiracy theorists/truther, was trying to wake people up 2000 years ago but got himself crucified cuz the governments/authorities at that time felt so threatened by what he was telling the public. Whatever happened back then, 2000 years later today ofc everything is pretty much corrupted.
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