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Old 12-10-2014, 04:57 AM   #21
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I think in the physical body and in physical realms/planets/etc., time is real. However, it is an illusion because when we are out of our physical bodies, there is no need for time. Our eternal souls do not exist in time, only when we are in organic bodies.

Physical time exists only on earth or on physical planets/solar systems.
I don't agree. Our soul's would have no experiences without time. I could see how you could say there is no time for the person out of body, if they are unconscious though...

As I understand it the soul is still bound by time when you die, and it leaves the body. To each their own though, of course.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:23 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by sh3lly View Post
I think in the physical body and in physical realms/planets/etc., time is real. However, it is an illusion because when we are out of our physical bodies, there is no need for time. Our eternal souls do not exist in time, only when we are in organic bodies.

Physical time exists only on earth or on physical planets/solar systems.
Hi, here is where I would have to disagree.

1) Your soul cannot exist without existing within some "space". Within that space is "time".

2) If we are speaking of a living soul, then we must also agree this soul would continue to experience events simply because it has consciousness.

3) There is obviously a time factor involved in the length and "timing" of the event or events.

4) There is also obviously time BETWEEN events.

Nothing that exists, outside of an ultimate creator God, exists outside of time and space... even if it's a time or space we know nothing about.
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Old 12-10-2014, 10:12 AM   #23
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Time has come about from watching the stars
It's called amser in Welsh. Am sêr = about/around the stars

The units/calendars used to record the movement are many and varied and have been changed over, well, time
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Old 13-10-2014, 09:24 AM   #24
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If you want to break up the illusion, simply unfocus your eye's a little or cross them. Even doing this simple thing can allow you to somewhat step out of this reality.
That reminds me...
Patch Adams - How Many Fingers Do You See?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N-Z6ZjvEfM
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Old 13-10-2014, 07:36 PM   #25
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1) We have that which exists, ie stars moons planets, solar systems galaxies, people, animals, atoms, protons, electrons, neutrons etc., ALL these things exist in this reality

2) We have man made illusion. An actual "Matrix" if you will.

What is real? What is illusion? The illusions we experience in this life, are perpetrated simply to lead us where we would not otherwise go. The illusions are perpetrated to justify taking actions that we would otherwise reject. The illusions are perpetrated to cause us to consider taking steps we would otherwise never consider taking.

These illusions are perpetrated by history's all time greatest manipulators, who's hearts are black and empty. It isnt the universe that is an illusion, it is our perception of it and all else... our PERCEPTIONS are the illusion, and the powers that be spend more money on manipulating illusion to alter our perceptions, than any other expense and likely even ALL other expenses combined.
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Old 13-10-2014, 10:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by tsuntsu View Post
1) We have that which exists, ie stars moons planets, solar systems galaxies, people, animals, atoms, protons, electrons, neutrons etc., ALL these things exist in this reality

2) We have man made illusion. An actual "Matrix" if you will.

What is real? What is illusion? The illusions we experience in this life, are perpetrated simply to lead us where we would not otherwise go. The illusions are perpetrated to justify taking actions that we would otherwise reject. The illusions are perpetrated to cause us to consider taking steps we would otherwise never consider taking.

These illusions are perpetrated by history's all time greatest manipulators, who's hearts are black and empty. It isnt the universe that is an illusion, it is our perception of it and all else... our PERCEPTIONS are the illusion, and the powers that be spend more money on manipulating illusion to alter our perceptions, than any other expense and likely even ALL other expenses combined.
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move.
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Old 15-10-2014, 10:23 AM   #27
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It's an illusion in the way a dream is an illusion, but in the dream we experience the dream as real. When we lucid dream we realise the dream is not real in the sense of waking reality. In waking reality, when we realise this waking reality is not what it seems, we are like the lucid dreamer who experiences the unreality of dreaming. However, to the lucid dreamer, there is another reality beyond the dream - the waking world. Beyond the waking world there is another reality.

They are all real to those who are experiencing them and the reality affects them so that a change in that reality will be experienced as real. In this waking reality a change can cause us joy, pain or even death. The latter will take us out of this reality as surely as waking up takes us out of the dream reality. Then we'll find ourselves in another reality. We are meant to be in this reality as we are meant to be in the reality of dreaming when we are in the sleep state. The sleeping/dreaming reality has a purpose which is to help us in the waking reality and this waking reality has a purpose to help us in the next one. That is not to say we should not seek to experience the next reality.
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Old 15-10-2014, 04:34 PM   #28
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Wow!! Fantastically put, vegan on the land
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Old 18-10-2014, 12:36 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by tsuntsu View Post
1) We have that which exists, ie stars moons planets, solar systems galaxies, people, animals, atoms, protons, electrons, neutrons etc., ALL these things exist in this reality

2) We have man made illusion. An actual "Matrix" if you will.

What is real? What is illusion? The illusions we experience in this life, are perpetrated simply to lead us where we would not otherwise go. The illusions are perpetrated to justify taking actions that we would otherwise reject. The illusions are perpetrated to cause us to consider taking steps we would otherwise never consider taking.

These illusions are perpetrated by history's all time greatest manipulators, who's hearts are black and empty. It isnt the universe that is an illusion, it is our perception of it and all else... our PERCEPTIONS are the illusion, and the powers that be spend more money on manipulating illusion to alter our perceptions, than any other expense and likely even ALL other expenses combined.
Great post. My thoughts exactly. I think people get carried away with the mind candy effect of just saying everything is an illusion. It has some sense of being profound, which is why it is so popular of a belief. It is nonsense IMO.
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Old 18-10-2014, 12:50 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by tsuntsu View Post
1) We have that which exists, ie stars moons planets, solar systems galaxies, people, animals, atoms, protons, electrons, neutrons etc., ALL these things exist in this reality

2) We have man made illusion. An actual "Matrix" if you will.

What is real? What is illusion? The illusions we experience in this life, are perpetrated simply to lead us where we would not otherwise go. The illusions are perpetrated to justify taking actions that we would otherwise reject. The illusions are perpetrated to cause us to consider taking steps we would otherwise never consider taking.

These illusions are perpetrated by history's all time greatest manipulators, who's hearts are black and empty. It isnt the universe that is an illusion, it is our perception of it and all else... our PERCEPTIONS are the illusion, and the powers that be spend more money on manipulating illusion to alter our perceptions, than any other expense and likely even ALL other expenses combined.
1) and 2) are not distinct. E.g. you mention the moon in 1) but you'll find some who say it's a solid lump of rock and others who say it's something else so...
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Old 18-10-2014, 01:22 AM   #31
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1) and 2) are not distinct. E.g. you mention the moon in 1) but you'll find some who say it's a solid lump of rock and others who say it's something else so...
Which is explained by him saying perception is the illusion. Any perspective I have seen can agree the moon is actually there though, which was his point. not what the moon actually is. We have moons in our solar system. This is a fact. What they are is subject to debate.

What people say the moon is, doesn't change what it truly is. And the truth is not an illusion.
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Old 18-10-2014, 01:41 AM   #32
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Which is explained by him saying perception is the illusion. Any perspective I have seen can agree the moon is actually there though, which was his point. not what the moon actually is. We have moons in our solar system. This is a fact. What they are is subject to debate.

What people say the moon is, doesn't change what it truly is. And the truth is not an illusion.
Your final two sentences seem to imply that there is some kind of absolute truth, independent of what people say the truth is, in the case of the moon in any case.

The wave/particle duality double slit stuff implies that unless explicity observed, electrons and photons are in states of superposition. Wouldn't this apply to the moon, or anything else for that matter?

I posit that different groups of people see different clusters of evidence for different subsets of infinite possibility and that this is what we experience with e.g. '9/11 truth' with the mainstream/planes/no planes/directed energy weapons/etc. ne'er-the-twain-shall-meet head-scratcher.

You can think you have found the 'truth' but there could always be another layer. How could you know? Surely the 'truth' is always Schrödinger's Cat in an unopened box?
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Old 18-10-2014, 03:56 AM   #33
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Your final two sentences seem to imply that there is some kind of absolute truth, independent of what people say the truth is, in the case of the moon in any case.

The wave/particle duality double slit stuff implies that unless explicity observed, electrons and photons are in states of superposition. Wouldn't this apply to the moon, or anything else for that matter?

I posit that different groups of people see different clusters of evidence for different subsets of infinite possibility and that this is what we experience with e.g. '9/11 truth' with the mainstream/planes/no planes/directed energy weapons/etc. ne'er-the-twain-shall-meet head-scratcher.

You can think you have found the 'truth' but there could always be another layer. How could you know? Surely the 'truth' is always Schrödinger's Cat in an unopened box?
Yes, there is one absolute truth. One universal timeline where what happens and what exists is called the truth. There is an objective truth IMO. Finding that truth however is where it gets tougher...
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Old 18-10-2014, 04:54 AM   #34
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Yes, there is one absolute truth. One universal timeline where what happens and what exists is called the truth. There is an objective truth IMO. Finding that truth however is where it gets tougher...
Surely in the context of the double slit experiment, if it were true that there was one absolute truth, wouldn't the electron or photon have to go through one slit or the other rather than both?
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Old 18-10-2014, 06:53 AM   #35
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Surely in the context of the double slit experiment, if it were true that there was one absolute truth, wouldn't the electron or photon have to go through one slit or the other rather than both?
We don't understand quantum physics very well. Nor the nature of reality. I'm curious about this experiment. Thanks for the video link. Regardless of particle behavior it is bound by a set of rules, which is called natural law. It does not change, the totality of natural law... It is part of truth and it doesn't ever change IMO.

I don't see how the double slit experiment shows there isn't one absolute truth. It just shows our understanding of truth is limited at best in science and that potentially our minds or observation technology affects particles behavior.
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Old 18-10-2014, 10:33 AM   #36
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Hi, here is where I would have to disagree.

1) Your soul cannot exist without existing within some "space". Within that space is "time".

2) If we are speaking of a living soul, then we must also agree this soul would continue to experience events simply because it has consciousness.

3) There is obviously a time factor involved in the length and "timing" of the event or events.

4) There is also obviously time BETWEEN events.

Nothing that exists, outside of an ultimate creator God, exists outside of time and space... even if it's a time or space we know nothing about.
1) Your soul cannot exist without existing within some "space". Within that space is "time".

The void is every where and every when, it is the space within which "movement" takes place in order to allow for concepts such as time to be sensed.

2) If we are speaking of a living soul, then we must also agree this soul would continue to experience events simply because it has consciousness.

The void is THE living soul. It is pure awareness - whereas streams of conscious energy move, like unseen currents through the depths of an ocean.

3) There is obviously a time factor involved in the length and "timing" of the event or events.

An event is defined by motion. An object "moving" between reference points can be measured. We have conjured up time in order to conceptually measure motion. Time is not a dimension and doesn't exist when there is perfect stillness.

4) There is also obviously time BETWEEN events. Nothing that exists, outside of an ultimate creator God, exists outside of time and space... even if it's a time or space we know nothing about

There is space between reference points that allow for motion (an event) to be registered and measured. Nothing exists outside of an ultimate creator God. It can't. Not if it's ultimate. The Void is the omnipresent stillness that permeates everything, without which all foreground movement would be unmeasurable, and without which there would be no sense of the immovable now.
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Old 18-10-2014, 11:02 AM   #37
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1) Your soul cannot exist without existing within some "space". Within that space is "time".

The void is every where and every when, it is the space within which "movement" takes place in order to allow for concepts such as time to be sensed.
Wrong... as long as there is space there is time. It would take time to move from one point in space o another whether that is a quarter inch or 10 trillion light years. Time and space are always relative


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An event is defined by motion. An object "moving" between reference points can be measured. We have conjured up time in order to conceptually measure motion. Time is not a dimension and doesn't exist when there is perfect stillness.
Wrong We didn't conjure up time. Time is a dimension of space... you cannot have one and not have the other, just as you cant have 3 dimensional space without height width and depth.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have one without the other. If an event takes place there is the time expired it took to transpire. There is time between evens... there is time between space in the vast NOTHINGNESS.
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Old 18-10-2014, 11:17 AM   #38
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Who is perceiving the illusory?
The real.

By definition, the identification of an illusion or illusory state presupposes the existence of that which is not illusory, to be able to discern the illusion.

Ramana Maharshi said something like 'Brahman is real. The world is illusory. Brahman is the world.'

On first reflection, it seems like a paradoxical point, but what is meant is that the essence/energy of the world is real (Spirit), but the forms come and go, though they are never 'destroyed.'

Of course, this is still duality. There is no such thing as an illusory experience.

That's why all true religion is about opening the heart, rather than thinking 'this isn't real, this is real' all the time.

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Old 18-10-2014, 01:57 PM   #39
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We don't understand quantum physics very well. Nor the nature of reality. I'm curious about this experiment. Thanks for the video link. Regardless of particle behavior it is bound by a set of rules, which is called natural law. It does not change, the totality of natural law... It is part of truth and it doesn't ever change IMO.

I don't see how the double slit experiment shows there isn't one absolute truth. It just shows our understanding of truth is limited at best in science and that potentially our minds or observation technology affects particles behavior.
Your choice of words, i.e. 'one' absolute truth, would seem to me to rule out the kind of superposition strongly suggested by e.g. the double-slit experiment, which itself arguably impies the alive-and-dead-at-the-same-time Schrödinder's Cat model.

If you see the idea of 'one' absolute truth as possibly including that a cat can be alive and dead at the same time would it not be better to drop the word 'one'?

Sorry if this seems pedantic
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Old 18-10-2014, 02:02 PM   #40
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The real.

By definition, the identification of an illusion or illusory state presupposes the existence of that which is not illusory, to be able to discern the illusion.

Ramana Maharshi said something like 'Brahman is real. The world is illusory. Brahman is the world.'

On first reflection, it seems like a paradoxical point, but what is meant is that the essence/energy of the world is real (Spirit), but the forms come and go, though they are never 'destroyed.'

Of course, this is still duality. There is no such thing as an illusory experience.

That's why all true religion is about opening the heart, rather than thinking 'this isn't real, this is real' all the time.
Could there not be layers of relative 'illusion' and 'reality', e.g. in the case of a dream within a dream? How could we ever know for sure that anything is reality, that there are no further layers which could be peeled away?

That said I find it difficult to imagine getting through life without working assumptions as to what, to all intents and purposes, is 'reality'.
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