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Old 11-05-2008, 03:52 PM   #1
lost_in_translation
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I see alot of people in here are against the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. I myself am against them. Not for the same reasons as the rest of you. this war for me is personal. I dont agree with it but at the same time. there is a need for change in that part of the world. I dont think America should be spear heading the operation. it should be neighbors like Saudi or Kuwait.

the war is all about money. not oil, not to protect the rest of the world from terrorist threat. and damn sure not for Iraqi freedom. how much money is a life worth.. how much money is 4,000 plus lives worth. and how much money is the hundreds of thousands of iraqi lives worth. billons of US dollars is not enough for 1 life lost in my eyes

I have been to Iraq. seen the contractors get rich off the work of others. while i was there the US government gave billions in contracts to US firms and the contractors contracted the work to Iraqi workers and paid them 2 dollars a day while I was there. they also received contracts and money to build schools and hospitals. but never even started the projects because of security issues. then contractors and soldiers killing innocent people to keep the war going.

My reasons for hating the war are my own. I live with the things i saw and did everyday. i lost a few friends. I have been shot at.. I shot back. I wasnt there for my country I was there for the man to my left and the man to my right. not soldiers but friends.. i still reamber the smell of burnt flesh. PTSD is what they call it. Sometimes I sit for hours and just think.

am I a bad person. some of you say yes. was I brain washed. am i programed. I think in a way all of us are brainwashed and programed to think the way we do. Videos and reading are a few of the best ways to brainwash someone into thinking a certin way on a topic. I see alot of links to videos and reading material posted in here. I see alot of anger in this site tword others. because of the way they feel and think. I myself have posted angry threads . but who are we to judge

so to those who like to judge me. i say it is you right to feel and believe what you want.

for those who like to judge American soldiers in here and say we are all bad. I say that is you right. living in a sociaty where we can say and think what we like without having to fear being killed. is a beautiful thing and we should never bow down and give up the way we feel and what we think over fear.

but what if you were from a country that killed you because of your beliefs. the blind faith religions not only have muslims killing christians. it has muslims killing muslims. i heard stories about the was saddam ran that country from iraqies that were on the recieving end of his form of justice. I have been on patrol and seen the bodies of young iraqies tied up and shot in the back of the head because of their faith. murdered by other iraqies.

I know there are warlords in africa that make saddam look like the pope. and our reasons for fighting the war and made up on lies. there is alot of negative aspects surrounding the war

but at the same time you dont see posts of good comming out of iraq.I have personaly seen acts of kindness.. why is that. why do we as the enlightend ones only focus on the negative aspect of life. makes you wonder.
if you were to pick up a news paper and the headlines for one page were "man gives flowers" and the next page was" thousands die" which story would you read. and why. think about it.

I am in no way defending the war. i feel we should make love not war. but at the same time. sometimes in life there is a need to stand up and fight. if you stand for nothing then you will fall for anything
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Old 11-05-2008, 07:28 PM   #2
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Yes, there are times when you need to stand up and fight, but the War on Terror is not one of them.

Of course I don't think there can be any moral objection to removing Saddam from power and I'm sure Iraq is better off without him. I know that the occupying forces carry out acts of kindness all the time. My objection comes from the fact that Saddam was put into power by the very same government which then decides to remove him. Why do we suddenly hear what a bad guy he was only in 1990? It's as if he just dropped out of the sky! Why? Because he was no longer good for business! If he'd carried on playing ball with the West and the oil industry then they'd have hapily turned a blind eye to his atrocities, which indeed they did before 1990! I'm glad you realize that, mate.

That's my problem. we're dealing with a case where you go to the doctor only to find out that the doctor deliberately poisoned you in the first place!

Regimes like this one you mentioned:
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but what if you were from a country that killed you because of your beliefs. the blind faith religions not only have muslims killing christians. it has muslims killing muslims.
They exist everywhere and more often than not, they're supported by Western investment, and even political support! We never even ehar about it in the media and only "go in and get 'em" when for some reason that regime is no longer a good financial power asset.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:03 PM   #3
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I myself am in the armed forces but I have only been to the South Atlantic as yet. A lot of people I work with have been to Afghanistan and Iraq but don't really mention those places.

I do feel that a lot of people in here have really negative attitueds towards service personnel, as if we are to blame for the wars that politicians start. I have done this one to death in another thread so I am not going to argue with any of the anti's in this thread.

Personally I think you deserve a bit of respect. A lot of people join up with the selfless intent of serving the country and being a protector of the weak. You swear an oath and carry out operations that are very unpopular in order to honour your oath, with the risk of losing your life or limbs, or seeing friends die. Politicians screw things up but it's the ordinary soldier, sailor or airman who ends up getting it in the neck, often in a fatal way.

Too many people in the modern would have no concept of self sacrifice and service of others, thinking that the armed forces is like some job where you just pack up and go home when your boss cuts down on your tea breaks, as that is the world a lot of people live in. They criticise those who have taken oaths to protect lives should the need arise. They spin stories about how brutal the forces are in foreign countries, likening them to murderers without ever having being there, even though the enemy would happily carve you up without a thought and stick it on youtube. They also refuse to accept that you may well be a good individual who has your own mind as they stereotype you as a mind controlled robot as it suits their purpose to believe that you have no mind or conscience. The truth is that most people in here will have made their mind up about you and stuck you in their little pidegon hole filing system under robot.

That said there are a few enlightened people such as Hagbard who seem to be able to think with a bit more clarity than most.
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:29 PM   #4
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That said there are a few enlightened people such as Hagbard who seem to be able to think with a bit more clarity than most.
Thanks, mate, but I suppose I've just been effected myself by all this because some of the bodies come back from Iraq and Afghanistan though my hospital; and I have to deal with it.

(Hospital porters serve on the front line of medical care and that's no picnic, and we get none of the thanks that nurses and doctors, let alone the armed forces, get)

Also I'm in no position to claim any moral high ground. After all I do work for the world's biggest and most brutal drug baron!
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:41 PM   #5
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i seved in the forces(british army)88 to 92,seved in 1st gulf war front line,the army is brainwasing bullshitwe used to have a saying BULLSHIT BAFFLES BRAINSi would not advise it to anyone unless you are gullibleit is full of yes people,thats why you have to have unemployment in uk,i see the politicians are serving on the front linecoming back with no limbs on,propoganda or whati wish people would wake upWAR IS FUTILE,especially when they have created it,the east as never attacked the west,but we have bombed nearly every country under the sun,with our so called BULLSHIT DEMOCRACYya havin a laugh,rule out of chaos,yea lets praise our heroes,BOLLOX,what about all the iraqi & afghan babies blown to bits,you fucked up morons,oh and hiroshima&nagasaki,vietnam and so onBOMB AND SHOOT YOUR WAY TO DEMOCRACYGET OUT OF YA BUBBLE YA SLAVES.oh by the way i flushed my muderous medals down the toilet,where they belong.

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Old 11-05-2008, 11:05 PM   #6
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it is the west who are the terrorists,they created saddam,bin laden,mao,gulf of tonkin,hitler,do you not get it,BABYLON it as all been staged by our murderous regimes,since year dot,OPEN YOUR MIND we have all been brainwashedthe system is deep and dark,the more you peel back,the more will be revealed,do not wallow in self pitydo something about it ie confront your local MP or councillers write letters,join groups,you are here thats a startSEEK THE TRUTH,AND YE SHALL FIND
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Old 12-05-2008, 04:00 PM   #7
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it is the west who are the terrorists,they created saddam,bin laden,mao,gulf of tonkin,hitler,do you not get it,BABYLON it as all been staged by our murderous regimes,since year dot,OPEN YOUR MIND we have all been brainwashedthe system is deep and dark,the more you peel back,the more will be revealed,do not wallow in self pitydo something about it ie confront your local MP or councillers write letters,join groups,you are here thats a startSEEK THE TRUTH,AND YE SHALL FIND

Listen to you, Mr know it all. You are only brainwashed if you have no ability to think for yourself. Judging by your post I think that you still lack clarity and the capacity for independant thought. Perhaps your capacity for brainwashing during your service made your mind fertile ground for being brainwashed by David Icke. Certainly looks like it.
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Old 12-05-2008, 09:24 PM   #8
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Listen to you, Mr know it all. You are only brainwashed if you have no ability to think for yourself. Judging by your post I think that you still lack clarity and the capacity for independant thought. Perhaps your capacity for brainwashing during your service made your mind fertile ground for being brainwashed by David Icke. Certainly looks like it.
blah blah blah I HAVE A BIT MORE CLARITY THAN YOU MATEY,IF I AM BRAINWASHED BY MR ICKE,WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ON THIS FORUM MR BABYLON? YOU WILL FIND OUT WHEN YOU GO TO A REAL WARZONE,THATS IF YOU CAN HANDLE IT?AND BY THE WAY WE ARE ALL INTERDEPENDENT,IF YOU CAN COMPREHEND THAT WITH YOUR TINY INTELLECTWHY DO YOU PEOPLE GET PERSONNEL WHEN YOU HEAR SOMETHING YOU DO NOT LIKEI DID NOT GET PERSONNEL,I JUST STATED THE FACTS,LIKE THE X SAS GUY(BEN)DID, I SUPPOSE HE IS A KNOW IT ALL TO?WHEN I HAVE SUSSED OUT HOW TO PUT PICS ON THIS FORUM I WILL SHOW YOU SOME NICE PICS OF BLOWN UP BABIES,AND THEN WE WILL SEE WHO IS MR KNOW IT ALL,YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF YA BUBBLE?OUT OF SIGHT OUT OF MIND?INFANT RY, DO YOU GET IT? AND YOU KNOW NOTHING OF THE NATURE OF MIND,WHEN YOU DO LET ME KNOW,TA RA FOR NOWOH BY THE WAY I AM NOT ANTI FORCES I FEEL SORRY FOR THEM,I LOST FRIENDS IN COMBAT,AND BELIEVE YOU ME WAR IS NOT PLEASANT,ESPECIALLY WHEN THE FAT GENERALS AND POLITICIANS ARE GETTING OBSCENE ON YOUNG BLOOD,I DO NOT SEE THEM ON THE THE FRONT LINE,LOSING LIFE AND LIMB FOR THE MESS THEY CREATED,DO YOU.THE TRUTH HURTS DOESN'T IT.

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Old 13-05-2008, 07:11 AM   #9
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if you stand for nothing then you will fall for anything
I've never been to war, so I can't understand you completely — only empathize.

You shouldn't assume that people against this war stand for nothing. There are people who see things the opposite way from you, thinking that if you stand for anything, you'll die for nothing. But using simple formulas to resolve complex issues is missing the point.

Yes, this war's about money, but that means it's about retaining power — and not just on the US/UK side.

It's easy to dehumanize the Iraqi people and foreign insurgents by saying that they're hating and killing each other over religion or other ideological concerns. But that gives no one moral authority or a license to dominate them and kill them for another reason.

Let's imagine a US President or UK Prime Minister said: "People in my country are hating and killing each other every day in the cities. We'll send troops in with a zero tolerance attitude and a weapons-free policy." But of course that would never happen, right? It's different in Iraq/Somalia/everywhere else — because... Well, why is it different?

What you've said about your experiences should not be allowed to let the violence continue.
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Old 13-05-2008, 05:04 PM   #10
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Friend of mine was in the Paras for 5 years.

Did 3 tours of Afghanistan & 1 in Iraq, then realised he was getting chump change, so he went into PSD work (private security detail) ~ private military contracting and spent a long time in Fallujah (scary fucking place), surrounded by Syrian / Iraqi, shiite malitia every day who are just looking to kill troops from the US / UK.

he is at home right now as the Mrs just had a baby, but itching for the desert.

I think a lot of these guys are like Vietnam vets, you see that much combat and it changes you for the rest of you life.

He had more than one friend smoked right next to him by heavy machine gun fire, a mortar round, & lost a couple of guys from his reg to IED’s.

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Old 13-05-2008, 06:32 PM   #11
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blah blah blah I HAVE A BIT MORE CLARITY THAN YOU MATEY,IF I AM BRAINWASHED BY MR ICKE,WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING ON THIS FORUM MR BABYLON? YOU WILL FIND OUT WHEN YOU GO TO A REAL WARZONE,THATS IF YOU CAN HANDLE IT?AND BY THE WAY WE ARE ALL INTERDEPENDENT,IF YOU CAN COMPREHEND THAT WITH YOUR TINY INTELLECTWHY DO YOU PEOPLE GET PERSONNEL WHEN YOU HEAR SOMETHING YOU DO NOT LIKEI DID NOT GET PERSONNEL,I JUST STATED THE FACTS,LIKE THE X SAS GUY(BEN)DID, I SUPPOSE HE IS A KNOW IT ALL TO?WHEN I HAVE SUSSED OUT HOW TO PUT PICS ON THIS FORUM I WILL SHOW YOU SOME NICE PICS OF BLOWN UP BABIES,AND THEN WE WILL SEE WHO IS MR KNOW IT ALL,YOU NEED TO GET OUT OF YA BUBBLE?OUT OF SIGHT OUT OF MIND?INFANT RY, DO YOU GET IT? AND YOU KNOW NOTHING OF THE NATURE OF MIND,WHEN YOU DO LET ME KNOW,TA RA FOR NOWOH BY THE WAY I AM NOT ANTI FORCES I FEEL SORRY FOR THEM,I LOST FRIENDS IN COMBAT,AND BELIEVE YOU ME WAR IS NOT PLEASANT,ESPECIALLY WHEN THE FAT GENERALS AND POLITICIANS ARE GETTING OBSCENE ON YOUNG BLOOD,I DO NOT SEE THEM ON THE THE FRONT LINE,LOSING LIFE AND LIMB FOR THE MESS THEY CREATED,DO YOU.THE TRUTH HURTS DOESN'T IT.
Can you try writing a bit clearer. Guess you didn't need your GCSE English to be in the infantry. Why bitch on about it when you actually volunteered for that job. You obviously like your smileys but infantry guys have to use simple methods to express themselves. It saves them having to actually learn to write coherently. Perhaps you picked up a taste for them on the idiots guides that are printed on some weapons.

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Old 13-05-2008, 08:09 PM   #12
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wepons.
According to your strict rules regarding the written word, Marpat, you too have failed. Does this negate what you said?

Thought not.
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Old 13-05-2008, 09:04 PM   #13
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According to your strict rules regarding the written word, Marpat, you too have failed. Does this negate what you said? I am sorry I said that I am retarded

Thought not.

Wow a spelling error, thanks for pointing that out for me. I will be more careful next time. Thanks
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Old 13-05-2008, 10:28 PM   #14
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Can you try writing a bit clearer. Guess you didn't need your GCSE English to be in the infantry. Why bitch on about it when you actually volunteered for that job. You obviously like your smileys but infantry guys have to use simple methods to express themselves. It saves them having to actually learn to write coherently. Perhaps you picked up a taste for them on the idiots guides that are printed on some weapons.
personel againand i was not in the infant ry cow-pat i am not bitching,if you cannot understand me,you must me a dimwit yourselfand i am not at school,so i will write how i please.Also i was brainwashed at the time,just like you are now?you need to get in the real world,and burst the bubble you are obviously living in?Its about time they flew you off to Iraq in your chemtrail plane,you can poison a few more minds on the way there?

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Old 14-05-2008, 05:14 AM   #15
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personel againand i was not in the infant ry cow-pat i am not bitching,if you cannot understand me,you must me a dimwit yourselfand i am not at school,so i will write how i please.Also i was brainwashed at the time,just like you are now?you need to get in the real world,and burst the bubble you are obviously living in?Its about time they flew you off to Iraq in your chemtrail plane,you can poison a few more minds on the way there?
For somebody who thinks he has woken up to reality you just accept all the conspiracy stuff without question. Please explain how I cannot understand you. I have read a few of David Ickes books and what you are saying just comes straight off those pages, there is no independant thought, you are just parroting what other people have printed. If I had to go to Iraq then so what, I accept responsibility for myself and have volunteered for my job and am not the moral coward that you are when it comes to carrying it out. Can you explain to me what a chemtrail plane is and how you would prove that it is carrying out such actvities.

What are you doing now that you have become such a valuable ambassador for peace?

I don't think you can complain about people being personal. If you read your own posts then it's clear to see that you get quite personal yourself.

When you say that you can show pictures of blown up babies are these your own personal collection or did you gather them off the internet. In the first case I would think you were sick for taking such and in the second I would have to ask you were the pictures came from as it is clear that a lof of the deaths in present wars are caused by suicide bombers, so who can say who killed any civilian unless they are present to witness such things. I guess in your narrow twisted mind there will be no doubt that westerners have done it all.

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Old 14-05-2008, 11:12 AM   #16
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I have been.
Let no solider tell you it's easy, let no solider tell you they are not effected.
Theres two kinds of solider, the ones that go and stay at arms length yet carry out duties in danger and may come underfire, and the ones that get so deep in shit, all feelings, emotions and morals run away from you and never return.

Blown up babies? blown up would be a god send instead of crushed babies, burnt babies, babies so damaged you can't tell where they begin where the mothers arms begin due to heat.
Those that have not been and seen have no idea how even a simple smell of frying bacon can bring back the smell of burning flesh, or the cheap hollywood movie showing the excellant brave death of the underman, so fabulous, instead of watching your friend bleed to death while he cries. or maybe your on body part patrol after a road side bomb, picking your freinds fingers of the dirt road.

Theres not alot more i can say only while you sleep safe at night, theres others that no longer can.
And yes for those to counter attack, i did join up, joined when there was no war, i joined to defend my country and the people in it, to protect what i loved in both land and customs. There was no choice to go there, you was going and that was it.
It's the game of you are controlled, used and put forward into what ever they see fit. You are nothing more than a solider that should kill and be killed on there command.

For those that think they know, think they have an understanding and those that can find pictures and pretend they know, Piss off and go start a stamp collection, don't write crap on here with your views, you insult every man fighting out there and me.
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Old 14-05-2008, 03:57 PM   #17
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I have been.
Let no solider tell you it's easy, let no solider tell you they are not effected.
Theres two kinds of solider, the ones that go and stay at arms length yet carry out duties in danger and may come underfire, and the ones that get so deep in shit, all feelings, emotions and morals run away from you and never return.

Blown up babies? blown up would be a god send instead of crushed babies, burnt babies, babies so damaged you can't tell where they begin where the mothers arms begin due to heat.
Those that have not been and seen have no idea how even a simple smell of frying bacon can bring back the smell of burning flesh, or the cheap hollywood movie showing the excellant brave death of the underman, so fabulous, instead of watching your friend bleed to death while he cries. or maybe your on body part patrol after a road side bomb, picking your freinds fingers of the dirt road.

Theres not alot more i can say only while you sleep safe at night, theres others that no longer can.
And yes for those to counter attack, i did join up, joined when there was no war, i joined to defend my country and the people in it, to protect what i loved in both land and customs. There was no choice to go there, you was going and that was it.
It's the game of you are controlled, used and put forward into what ever they see fit. You are nothing more than a solider that should kill and be killed on there command.

For those that think they know, think they have an understanding and those that can find pictures and pretend they know, Piss off and go start a stamp collection, don't write crap on here with your views, you insult every man fighting out there and me.
What regiment where you in ??.
Where were you deployed ??.


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Old 14-05-2008, 04:23 PM   #18
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I have been.
Let no solider tell you it's easy, let no solider tell you they are not effected.
Theres two kinds of solider, the ones that go and stay at arms length yet carry out duties in danger and may come underfire, and the ones that get so deep in shit, all feelings, emotions and morals run away from you and never return.

Blown up babies? blown up would be a god send instead of crushed babies, burnt babies, babies so damaged you can't tell where they begin where the mothers arms begin due to heat.
Those that have not been and seen have no idea how even a simple smell of frying bacon can bring back the smell of burning flesh, or the cheap hollywood movie showing the excellant brave death of the underman, so fabulous, instead of watching your friend bleed to death while he cries. or maybe your on body part patrol after a road side bomb, picking your freinds fingers of the dirt road.

Theres not alot more i can say only while you sleep safe at night, theres others that no longer can.
And yes for those to counter attack, i did join up, joined when there was no war, i joined to defend my country and the people in it, to protect what i loved in both land and customs. There was no choice to go there, you was going and that was it.
It's the game of you are controlled, used and put forward into what ever they see fit. You are nothing more than a solider that should kill and be killed on there command.

For those that think they know, think they have an understanding and those that can find pictures and pretend they know, Piss off and go start a stamp collection, don't write crap on here with your views, you insult every man fighting out there and me.
Well thanks a lot for that mate but I have actually been in the forces for eight years so I have got some idea what is going on, not what people just choose to believe after reading a couple of books.
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Old 14-05-2008, 05:33 PM   #19
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in the forces for eight years
Which ones?
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Old 14-05-2008, 06:25 PM   #20
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Which ones?

Doesn't really matter does it. The fact is that I can easily find myself in any of the present conflict areas.
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