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Old 12-03-2014, 02:23 PM   #1821
oceans
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If someone had told me that I could have the list of these benefits for myself, others and society and all I had to do was see past something. I would at least attempt to do so for the sake of humanity no matter what it was.

People sell techniques, beliefs and illusions all the time in the name of what we are trying to point too. Critical thinking has no value which is mental

If even an individual can't get it, society is going to have even harder time. This knowledge is already out there in mainstream science and psychology, it's fact, but so many businesses, industries, jobs and products would be affected, it's best to go along with the ways things are rather than fixing everything for the sake of humanity and the planet.

We KNOW about the roll of cause and effect but ignore it completely for the sake of egos fantasies.

MAN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU

Last edited by oceans; 12-03-2014 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:31 PM   #1822
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Originally Posted by oceans View Post
If someone had told me that I could have the list of these benefits for myself, others and society and all I had to do was see past something. I would at least attempt to do so for the sake of humanity no matter what it was.

People sell techniques, beliefs and illusions all the time in the name of what we are trying to point too. Critical thinking has no value which is mental

If even an individual can't get it, society is going to have even harder time. This knowledge is already out there in mainstream science and psychology, it's fact, but so many businesses, industries, jobs and products would be affected, it's best to go along with the ways things are rather than fixing everything for the sake of humanity and the planet.

We KNOW about the roll of cause and effect but ignore it completely for the sake of egos fantasies.

MAN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU
In spite of that view/observation I'm still in complete peace and gratitude. It's taken a while for certain truths to fall into mainstream knowledge and the illusion of freewill be finally accepted whenever it gets accepted. I might not be around at that point, or I could be a old man. Lets just hope it's sooner than later for the sake of the ones that come after us.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:34 PM   #1823
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Originally Posted by oceans View Post

If even an individual can't get it, society is going to have even harder time. This knowledge is already out there in mainstream science and psychology, it's fact, but so many businesses, industries, jobs and products would be affected, it's best to go along with the ways things are rather than fixing everything for the sake of humanity and the planet.

We KNOW about the roll of cause and effect but ignore it completely for the sake of ego.

MAN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU
On the positive side, it does seem to be making more inroads in some Scandinavian countries.

It's very slowly getting there in UK as well, with things like 'Restorative Justice'. In courts, judges and juries do consider a lot more than they ever did. Not like a few hundred years ago when everyone was treated the same regardless of anything.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:37 PM   #1824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceans View Post
If someone had told me that I could have the list of these benefits for myself, others and society and all I had to do was see past something. I would at least attempt to do so for the sake of humanity no matter what it was.

People sell techniques, beliefs and illusions all the time in the name of what we are trying to point too. Critical thinking has no value which is mental

If even an individual can't get it, society is going to have even harder time. This knowledge is already out there in mainstream science and psychology, it's fact, but so many businesses, industries, jobs and products would be affected, it's best to go along with the ways things are rather than fixing everything for the sake of humanity and the planet.

We KNOW about the roll of cause and effect but ignore it completely for the sake of egos fantasies.

MAN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfGMYdalClU
Yes and as I pointed out earlier, our culture is based on religion, our education system, Judicial system parental system absolutely everything.

And our religion promotes the idea of free will 100%, even though it isn't mentioned in the bible.

Anybody see a conspiracy here?
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:37 PM   #1825
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Originally Posted by picklez01 View Post
On the positive side, it does seem to be making more inroads in some Scandinavian countries.

It's very slowly getting there in UK as well, with things like 'Restorative Justice'. In courts, judges and juries do consider a lot more than they ever did. Not like a few hundred years ago when everyone was treated the same regardless of anything.
Oh yeah, I agree. The evidence can only pile up now, at some point it will be too obvious to ignore.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:39 PM   #1826
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
We are way too late in the thread to tackle this simplistic thinking.

Suffice to say, you are wrong

Although to be going on with ask yourself why you are making a cup of tea, keep asking why and see where the line of thought leads you
And what's more I had a cherry bakewell slice with it .

I made it because I was bit hungry slightly thirsty and like the taste
I spied the cherry bakewell in the bread bin and it looked bloody tasty
Come to think about it there's orange penguins in there and as I've I've finished my cake off Im
Going to get two because choice orange biscuits taste nice ,
Or am I wrong about them tasting nice and a victim of rogue taste buds in my own mouth .

You should look into critical literacy rhetorical manipulation .
To discuss freewill is to use both ,
Freewill is not a stand alone feature of human endeavour
When used in the process of understanding itself it becomes a paradoxical subject
Hence any discussion on whether we have it will end up going in circles

We all have freewi,l exorcising it doesn't mean we don't have it .
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:43 PM   #1827
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Originally Posted by vorwahr View Post
And what's more I had a cherry bakewell slice with it .

I made it because I was bit hungry slightly thirsty and like the taste
I spied the cherry bakewell in the bread bin and it looked bloody tasty
Come to think about it there's orange penguins in there and as I've I've finished my cake off Im
Going to get two because choice orange biscuits taste nice ,
Or am I wrong about them tasting nice and a victim of rogue taste buds in my own mouth .

You should look into critical literacy rhetorical manipulation .
To discuss freewill is to use both ,
Freewill is not a stand alone feature of human endeavour
When used in the process of understanding itself it becomes a paradoxical subject
Hence any discussion on whether we have it will end up going in circles

We all have freewi,l exorcising it doesn't mean we don't have it .
You will notice that all your reasons were caused.

There is no need to get all philosophical.

All we have to do is deal in cold hard logic.

If you cannot come up with anything that isn't caused, then free will is an absolute impossibility.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


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Old 12-03-2014, 02:45 PM   #1828
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Originally Posted by oceans View Post
Oh yeah, I agree. The evidence can only pile up now, at some point it will be too obvious to ignore.
Laws and justice was based on a core belief system of moral empathy
"eye for an eye " do unto others , etc "
That worked in a simpler society with less expansion
Of evidence gathering and psychological knowledge

Hence reforms take place it's called progression
Abortion is a classic example ,
Traditional belief is all life is life but we know that isn't true thanks to technology
And we see the psychological damage caused by unwanted pregnancy
Throw freewill into the debate over abortion and it's lime stepping back in time via obfuscation
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:47 PM   #1829
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
You will notice that all your reasons were caused.

There is no need to get all philosophical.

All we have to do is deal in cold hard logic.

If you cannot come up with anything that isn't caused, then free will is an absolute impossibility.
You state my reasons were caused yet say there's no reason to get philosophical about it and use cold logic .

So what caused my reasons according to your cold logic


I explained what caused my desire my desire for cake biscuits and tea ,
Ie hunger is that not an acceptable reason and an example of me exercising my freewill ?

We could go back to when I was shopping and bought them but that again was choice or freewill
I passed many shops and many shelves of snacks before deciding on them
And I bought other things but I didn't fancy those jaffa cakes or a piece in ham I wanted cake .

Last edited by vorwahr; 12-03-2014 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:47 PM   #1830
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorwahr View Post
Laws and justice was based on a core belief system of moral empathy
"eye for an eye " do unto others , etc "
That worked in a simpler society with less expansion
Of evidence gathering and psychological knowledge

Hence reforms take place it's called progression
Abortion is a classic example ,
Traditional belief is all life is life but we know that isn't true thanks to technology
And we see the psychological damage caused by unwanted pregnancy
Throw freewill into the debate over abortion and it's lime stepping back in time via obfuscation
Things are caused to progress, there is no getting away from it.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:48 PM   #1831
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Originally Posted by vorwahr View Post
You state my reasons were caused yet say there's no reason to get philosophical about it and use cold logic .

So what caused my reasons according to your cold logic
Hunger, thirst, you stated them yourself.
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Eating a lamb for the way it tastes is exactly the same as eating a songbird for the way it sounds.

Abhorrent.


Enlightenment is: Absolute co-operation with the inevitable.
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:55 PM   #1832
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Ffs , I'm going tae get another slice now
I was going into town today but phoned her tae pick up my new boots .
Boots I chose from hundreds of different varieties because my other ones are fucked
Btw not because I was influenced into randomly buying walking boots .
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:55 PM   #1833
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Hunger, thirst, you stated them yourself.
Yes generated in my own body ffs
Nobody put a spell on me .
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Old 12-03-2014, 02:58 PM   #1834
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
Things are caused to progress, there is no getting away from it.

What the hell does that even mean ,
It's a paradoxical statement lol .
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:00 PM   #1835
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Originally Posted by vorwahr View Post
Throw freewill into the debate over abortion and it's lime stepping back in time via obfuscation
On the other side of the coin, not much critical thinking goes into having a baby from my observation. It's all ego on some level, parents continuing an image of themselves and their genes. Pride, ownership etc. The world is over populated as it is and there are millions of children without homes because people want 'their' own kid. Shame. I digress. My bad, just thought I'd throw that in there.

Freewill is a childish belief that will be seen for what it is. It would put all focus on choices through logic - cause and effect - for the greater good rather than for the selfish individual/group. This would make place for a healthy emotional development for all.

Having freewill is an incredibly selfish act.

Last edited by oceans; 12-03-2014 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:03 PM   #1836
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Progression via information is the enemy of the liar
Therefore it's in the interest of the liar to destroy trust in both .

However this only postpones the inevitable and therefore the liar must have in place a
A reason for lying be that to make money or to get into a position of power .


Don't blame me my freewill was influenced lol
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:08 PM   #1837
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Originally Posted by sandwarrior View Post
But hypothetically, if you could calculate all of those forces, it would be totally predictable, right?
Potentially. I don't think the machine would be able to detect things, such as, somebody time traveling through those periods. For instance, If the current year is 2014, and you are looking into 2015, I don't think the machine would be able to predict time travelers from the year 2600 or something beyond the machines capacity, or even within the time capacity, but outside of the space capacity. So while it does support the idea of cause and effect, it's extremely 3 dimensional.

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I agree it is definitely more than just the brain, the brain is just a tool to make the body work, nothing more. It's just that our mind seems to have taken up camp their and usurped control.
Good

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Its learning what hot "feels" like, nothing more.

Please describe to me, knowing that I have no frame of reference what hot feels like.
It's like you knowing that you are going to experience skydiving in three weeks time, but until you actually skydive, you haven't experienced skydiving. It's the physical experience the soul needs.
Again, to have the physical experience, to "feel"
etc.
I just don't see how "feels" or the "feel" would be unobtainable in the much more sophisticated state that we are speaking of.

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Hope implies a lack of something, who is doing the hoping? I don't think a soul hopes, it just knows that it will experience everything and looks forward to it. Humans tend to hope because they want something they haven't got, without actually realizing that they have absolutely everything that they need right now. What would we hope for if we all intrinsically knew that?
Free will?
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Old 12-03-2014, 03:14 PM   #1838
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Tomorrow can we discuss other nouns as if they are tangible
items .

I propose ,
Futurity .
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:07 PM   #1839
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If it turned out our "random" decisions actually came from a deterministic pseudo-random generator somewhere in our brains, I doubt if anyone would care.
What people seem to find important about free will is the *will* part. They do something because they *want* to do it. Linked to that is the sensation that they could have done something different, if they'd *wanted* to do that. (I chose the fish off the menu because I felt like I wanted fish - but sure, I could easily have chosen the steak.) So we want to believe in a kind of free will that is actually pretty deterministic - because we want our decisions to be meaningful and relevant to our selves and our experiences. We just want a last little twiddle at the end, where we believe we always had the option to act against our own decision.
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I personally don't know how you could ever test for the existence of free will beyond our ability to *imagine* and *say* that we have free will. As I've said already, you can't go back to the exact moment at which you made a choice, and deliberately choose the other option. A lot of philosophers therefore say that complete determinism (your "mapped path and organized future") is entirely compatible with the sort of free will we can actually test for. Some people find that unsatisfactory.
http://www.spacetimeandtheuniverse.c...not-exist.html
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Old 12-03-2014, 04:40 PM   #1840
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Reading you and Mr sandwarrior, it's like listening to a dreary, rationalist materialistic lecture from Richard Dawkins!

Ok, lads if you believe we are mere robotic machines- and if that makes you happy, then we are all happy for you.

Tell us what are you going to do next?

Cup of tea, maybe go out for a drink, or watch tv....WHO decides for you ....and when will 'IT' be deciding?
I like Dawkins some of the time, much like David Icke, he is rather good at exposing the mental and masochistic slavery of religion suppressing man's potential.
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