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Old 28-03-2015, 11:09 PM   #1161
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There's a place between something being designed and it being an accident.

A natural series of actions and reactions between things. A naturally unplanned occurring between elements.
Not really, if something concious is not behind intelligent creation, then we have to except it was random that there was no meaning to its cause or result... Just as if lots of rocks fell off a cliff and created a neatly crafted hut bellow for people to shelter in... a mass freak thing that just fell into place... it would have been an accident in terms of science.

How can intelligence exist with out a conciousness behind it?
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Old 28-03-2015, 11:21 PM   #1162
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Only thing that got me saying who created God is God believers saying well who created X, implying God did. Yet when it comes to God nothing created it, so they understand the concept fine when it applies to their own bias.
Again, like my point before, What dogmatic Christians or Muslims think of God through the literal interpretation is not the leading truth, most likely example or source of evidence, in fact it is the opposite, so why do "scholars" focus so much on debunking stupidity?

As I said, the creation of God is something we could not understand as it is obviously not a body of source we can yet understand, and it may well be infinite, or something that re manifests.. who knows?

But the universe and us, life, planets and physical body's made up of space matter and time.. where we dwell, and where our brains dwell and think, hear and see...

That is something we can look at and ask how it was created. Atheists think they know the science behind its creation... so even they think it was created and not just here for ever.

What is odd is how they think it was not created by something intelligent.

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At the top it is logical that whatever it is creating things is infinite. To me life and universes are infinite. Universes are cyclically created by other universes and life goes on, the cycle continues. This to me is much more reasonable than some supreme being creating everything(quite flawed I might add - take a look around)...
Life and the universe and very likely infinite... but yet life and matter is still being created within that infancy... life is still being created... its design often evolving and changing..

It comes down to people not being able to comprehend behind manifestation and a mind existing beyond it... because we only perceive conciousness in living animals.. for all we know the universe could be the inside of a huge body...we could simply be tiny cells....
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Old 28-03-2015, 11:35 PM   #1163
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Let's assume that there's a mutilversal model of existence. That god exists, but he's some scientist from another dimension.

That scientist would have been created. Who created him?...
Clearly such a thing as god is not going to be as simple as a super scientist, how ever well that fits in with our own perceptions, the chances are what god is is way to vast and huge for our brains to understand.

This is why to me science can be a bit stuck up its arse in terms on what it claims is real and not, as if our brains are that great.

Atheists do not think conciousness comes from anywhere else other than the biological computer in our heads following data that makes us think and do as we do.

So of course with that how can they perceive a god that is not contained into a "being"

What about if God is an infinite force, eternal intelligence and conciousness.. that we cant find because we are gazillion miles from it and gazillion universes from it.. But it becomes more understandable after it creates things that can create, and this process ends with us and our world.... though keeps going..

You see, Atheists only want to think about such a subject with a 3 dimensional stand point. But that is like looking for fish while not bothering to find any water..

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Old 28-03-2015, 11:40 PM   #1164
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Not really, if something concious is not behind intelligent creation, then we have to except it was random that there was no meaning to its cause or result... Just as if lots of rocks fell off a cliff and created a neatly crafted hut bellow for people to shelter in... a mass freak thing that just fell into place... it would have been an accident in terms of science.

How can intelligence exist with out a conciousness behind it?
It isn't random. You have flaws in your understanding there. I published an article about this today actually. Made a thread here:
The Natural Laws of the Universe:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291945

The natural laws of the multiverse are behind creation IMO. It isn't random at all. Evolution isn't random either. That is just modern science's mundane comprehension of such. I go over the natural laws of creation in depth in the linked thread...

And it is up to each individual to apply meaning to the universe. There was no God intended meaning IMO. If we are to consider the 'mind of God' and it's meaning for the universe it would have to be including many things for it's meaning. Unless AI is more knowledgable than God, God would know every possible subjective meaning to the universe. Him choosing a certain one over another would mean subjectivity or bias. What kind of reality would it be if God liked me more than you. The creator of all things liking someone more than another person. What kind of social stigmas would that create? There would be ultimately ridiculous sycophants of God if he/she/it came forward with tastes like you describe. Also just for disagreeing with this being you would be shunned. The idea of God having a subjective opinion is a bit ridiculous IMO.

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How can intelligence exist with out a conciousness behind it?
The grass in my yard had no consciousness behind it's creation. Sure, originally the seed was sown. But the grass itself just continuously grows, self creating. This is the nature of the universe as well IMO. It self creates. There is intelligent design from Extraterrestrial life though. So most atheists or theists are wrong about reality IMHO.
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Old 28-03-2015, 11:43 PM   #1165
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Atheists do not think conciousness comes from anywhere else other than the biological computer in our heads following data that makes us think and do as we do.
More ridiculous stereotyping by you. An atheist is someone who disbelieves in a conscious supreme being that created everything. Nothing more, nothing less. An atheist can believe in soul, reincarnation, chakras, Extraterrestrials, fringe science, conspiracy, and all of that just as a theist can. I am an atheist that believes in soul and reincarnation, so from my perspective you are exposed as being short sighted with that statement.
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Old 28-03-2015, 11:44 PM   #1166
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I personally think atheists are the most interested in God. They want, like no other, to know God/god.

Its akin to a rebellious child; the more that child runs away the more that child needs love and affection to make it feel secure.

Who, what or why (re: God) - not if - are the questions I focus on, personally speaking.
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Old 29-03-2015, 12:13 AM   #1167
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The grass in my yard had no consciousness behind it's creation. Sure, originally the seed was sown. But the grass itself just continuously grows, self creating. This is the nature of the universe as well IMO. It self creates. There is intelligent design from Extraterrestrial life though. So most atheists or theists are wrong about reality IMHO.
The grass grows because it contains a structure which is within every blade of grass, designed to grow within certain conditions, as we are. Grass is alive and to some degree it is concious of its surroundings.. hence why it knows when its wet, and when the sun shines on it..

regarding your other comments, I do not think the creation of the universe is an accident, you need to read my whole posts. I believe it is the result of a concious intelligent design... when assessing the atheists point of view, it is an amazing random accident.. as like I say, intelligence comes from a concious idea...
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Old 29-03-2015, 12:18 AM   #1168
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More ridiculous stereotyping by you. An atheist is someone who disbelieves in a conscious supreme being that created everything. Nothing more, nothing less. An atheist can believe in soul, reincarnation, chakras, Extraterrestrials, fringe science, conspiracy, and all of that just as a theist can. I am an atheist that believes in soul and reincarnation, so from my perspective you are exposed as being short sighted with that statement.
Like I have said previously. Atheists may well believe in sprite, but then how can they deny the existence of god due to lack of evidence but believe that we have a soul which has the same amount of "evidence"?

Further more if we are spirit then it also goes against the atheist argument of creation of life as there is no data that covers what created our spirit.

So for sure, the word Atheist only means that you do not believe in God.. but Atheists who want to have a good case wont help them selves by addressing that we are spirits... which is why most of them don't. But of course they are free to do so!
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Old 29-03-2015, 12:20 AM   #1169
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regarding your other comments, I do not think the creation of the universe is an accident, you need to read my whole posts. I believe it is the result of a concious intelligent design... when assessing the atheists point of view, it is an amazing random accident.. as like I say, intelligence comes from a concious idea...
I never said you thought it was an accident. My whole point was it isn't the "atheist" view that it is an accident. And your constant spewing of such is a narrow point of view that doesn't include reality.

My point was there are very real universal mechanics behind creation, that are self sustaining. Nothing 'accident' about it. It's quite methodical.

"when assessing the atheists point of view, it is an amazing random accident.."
I just provided a post you quoted providing an atheist point of view that says it isn't an accident, and ISN't random. I think you are just ignorant of such at this point. I have shown you different atheist views than you describe atheists having, yet you keep peddling the same BS after it is conclusive it is faulty...
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Old 29-03-2015, 12:52 AM   #1170
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But the universe and us, life, planets and physical body's made up of space matter and time.. where we dwell, and where our brains dwell and think, hear and ..
Your model of the Universe doesn't seem to allow for energy.
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Old 29-03-2015, 01:53 AM   #1171
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I never said you thought it was an accident.
My whole point was it isn't the "atheist" view that it is an accident.
So Atheists think it was created by intent? your not making sense.


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My point was there are very real universal mechanics behind creation, that are self sustaining. Nothing 'accident' about it. It's quite methodical.
ok, and I am saying if its not an accident then it was intended right?



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I just provided a post you quoted providing an atheist point of view that says it isn't an accident, and ISN't random. I think you are just ignorant of such at this point. I have shown you different atheist views than you describe atheists having, yet you keep peddling the same BS after it is conclusive it is faulty...
LOL I don't give a shit what you claim you have posted, I could hand you a pile of shit in a pint glass and tell you its beer, does not mean it is.

I am aware that Atheists make claims of different types. I am putting forward the argument that I think they talk shit when making out they have logic on their side.

Again, my point is that ideas do not exist without a conciousness, if the universe was not an accident or a random event (like as you have pointed out some Atheists have stated ), then it must have been an idea... it must have been intended, deliberate... I am putting forward the argument that if that's so then it seems something must have been responsible for it.

either you're too thick to understand my argument or you cant deal with it...

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Old 29-03-2015, 02:10 AM   #1172
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Another bit of smelly stuff some Atheists come out with, is ..

"well look how imperfect the universe is, look at "failed planets" ... look at disease... look at how alone we are..."

Well this is more horse shit.

To us maybe we see imperfection, because many see death as our enemy.. but dying is apart of the life cycle. we live, we die.. a planet lives, it dies.. so on.. other planets that we feel do not habitat life do not have to be failed.. thats like saying any rock on earth that does not have grass and flowers growing off it is a failed rock... nope... the creator would have also created imperfection... you could say even imperfection is perfect as it is apart of everything that was intended.

Disease?, well the thing that causes the disease is also life, just life that attacks our life... like a lion killing a cow..

all of the negativity in the universe is in harmony with life on earth, the good and the bad... just because we don't like it, it does not mean its not in harmony with everything as a whole.

this whole idea comes from many Atheists because they fear death more so than any as it is simply the end and so has a cruel element to it. When some people do not feel death is the end, so it is less menacing and highlights the negatives are not as spiritually destructive, even though perceived as materialistically destructive.

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Old 29-03-2015, 02:29 AM   #1173
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He believed in personal resurrection and not the Osirian concept in your quote.

Christians do not believe in personal resurrection.
john 6:40 "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

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They have exactly the same merits to their arguments as Christians do when they argue Gnostics are wrong. That your text disagrees with theirs.

In fact a gnosis based understanding is on better ground than a faith based claim.
consider that the book of genesis is jewish rather than gnostic.

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They didn't know good and evil. They didn't know as gods.

Also, they were imprisoned in the material. The material is governed by Saturn. The same Saturn as was pushed back by the light in the beginning of Genesis.
they knew good, bc they knew the Creator:

ps 107:1 "Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever."

gods, in scripture, means judges. as I said before, when the Creator said, "the man has become like one of us", it was with a sense of sadness and compassion.

eden was paradise, not sure why anyone would consider that a prison.

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They did not have a choice without knowledge of good and evil. Lucifer brought temptation. If you look in good magician' stables Venus is associated with Lucifer and Desire.

Without desire it is not possible to commit a good action. There is no self sacrifice.

If someone is given option A and option B but there could never be any motivation or reason to choose option B, that can never be choice.
they actually had a choice given to them once the tree of knowledge was prohibited by the Creator: to eat or not to eat.

fleshly desire was innate. the serpent brought doubt: He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

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No, they could not abscond without the desire to do so. They were just programmed zombies.
if they were programmed zombies, the Creator wouldn't have had to prohibit the tree of knowledge.

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And it was Lucifer who gave us the ability to choose.
again, adam and eve had the ability to choose before they met that old serpent. keep in mind, the Creator allowed all of this to proceed, which means the Creator allowed the serpent into eden.

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I agree that intervention would inhibit this. But then I am not the one who believes in an omnibenevolent, omnipotent god who intervenes.

The lack of intervention to prevent evil is not a problem for me.
it's not a problem for me either. "in all things G-d works for the good of those who love Him."

this is from tolkien's cosmogony of middle earth: "The Universe still operates according to the design declared in the Music, and the flaws within it come from the discords of Melkor, which have been part of it since its beginning. Nevertheless, Ilúvatar [the Creator] insisted that these faults would but bring forth new and greater things in the Music's achievement."

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Your Lewis quote supports the liberation through knowledge of god and evil.
how is that?
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Old 29-03-2015, 03:13 AM   #1174
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So Atheists think it was created by intent? your not making sense.
It was created by the natural laws of the multiverse, AKA universal mechanics.

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ok, and I am saying if its not an accident then it was intended right?
My point was there are many more things it could be than either an accident or created by a supreme being God. Like for example a methodical natural cosmic set of laws that are behind creation of souls, planets, exosystems, ecosystems, etc. Nature is infinite, it has always existed IMO. It isn't an accident. And it wasn't designed IMO.


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LOL I don't give a shit what you claim you have posted, I could hand you a pile of shit in a pint glass and tell you its beer, does not mean it is.

I am aware that Atheists make claims of different types. I am putting forward the argument that I think they talk shit when making out they have logic on their side.
Claims? So you are saying I am bullshitting when saying I am an atheist that believes in soul and reincarnation? Your discernment isn't very functional then...

Your points are full of over-simplification based stereotypes and logical fallacies.

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Again, my point is that ideas do not exist without a conciousness, if the universe was not an accident or a random event (like as you have pointed out some Atheists have stated ), then it must have been an idea...
You desire to find idiocy in atheism, so you find it via the mechanics of perception and by attacking their weakest links. Perception has a way of feeding itself what it wants to see.

I don't see how you can sum up all of possibilities in "random" "accident" or "designed". There are many more possibilities to an undesigned universe than 'random' or 'accident'. Often when people accuse me of something, they are doing such a thing themselves. People see reflections of themselves in other people... Which explained this comment:

Quote:
either you're too thick to understand my argument or you cant deal with it...
I understand your argument fully. You don't seem to register my perspective though. Suddenly it's uncredible to believe I'm being honest about my own belief system... I have written articles about this stuff...... You have now met an atheist that breaks your stereotypes. Do you update your programming accordingly? Nope, you just continue on. That is ignorance. Sorry. I'm not the one being too thick here
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Old 29-03-2015, 10:55 AM   #1175
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It was created by the natural laws of the multiverse, AKA universal mechanics.
errr, ok. And is that "natural law" concious? or unconscious?

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My point was there are many more things it could be than either an accident or created by a supreme being God.
no there are not.
for sure we could assess what god is. But just because it might not be a bearded man living on a world of golden clouds it does not mean it is not god... what is god?... what is its nature?... these are all valid questions.

But what ever mind consciously caused the universe is God.... if there was no conciousness involved then there was no intent and like many Atheists belive, it was there because there was enough time and space for the universe and life to just randomly explode into existence by chance..

You are ignoring my point in one very basic question. Is what created the universe and life conscious or not.


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Like for example a methodical natural cosmic set of laws that are behind creation of souls, planets, exosystems, ecosystems, etc. Nature is infinite, it has always existed IMO. It isn't an accident. And it wasn't designed IMO.
But you have previously said "It was created by the natural laws of the multiverse, AKA universal mechanics." now you say it was never created, it has always just been there?... so you are contradicting your self.. and then have the cheek to make out I am not getting your points?

Well my view on the universe always just being there?, maybe it has, as far as we can perceive what for ever is anyway. But this again does not mean there is not a conciousness behind the cause of everything created within that universe... like the things you have described..

As far as I can tell you have replaced what I have called God with the "Universe" and still maintained that it has been there for ever as I have suggested God has... The Universe may well be apart of the body of God.

So as the "universe" creates souls and planets and so forth... It comes back to that same question, is it concious of doing so?, or is it not concious of doing it?

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Your points are full of over-simplification based stereotypes and logical fallacies.
Over simplification? .. Its because the question is very simple, but you as an Atheist need to cook up lots of shit to support your belife, in the same was as dogmatic and brainwashed religious folk do, IMO.

I have simplified nothing. I have just hang on an important point.... all your talk of the universe creating it for ever is all well and good but it sounds like a load of aloof colouring it and rubbing out, in order to assert what you would like to be true.

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You desire to find idiocy in atheism, so you find it via the mechanics of perception and by attacking their weakest links. Perception has a way of feeding itself what it wants to see.
I find idiocy in much of atheism as I do mainstream religion... and you are asserting what I find to be true. Your trying to over complicate things in order to make out your point makes sense...

I am trying to focus on core points. You find this hard.


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I don't see how you can sum up all of possibilities in "random" "accident" or "designed". There are many more possibilities to an undesigned universe than 'random' or 'accident'. Often when people accuse me of something, they are doing such a thing themselves. People see reflections of themselves in other people... Which explained this comment:
Well lets here about them then.... for example lets look at the brain ... not just how it functioned but how indeed it evolved and grew..
lets look at what a planet needs to provide life, and exist.. Humans cant create those things... you say the universe did.

I presume with all your complaining somewhere in there you are saying that the universe was not concious of such things it created?... the brain/body, the soul, planets and all the astonishingly intricate and complex constructs within these things and beyond..

Ok, so if it was created by something that was not concious of doing it. How was it not a random event? or events?


Quote:
You have now met an atheist that breaks your stereotypes. Do you update your programming accordingly? Nope, you just continue on.
Yes, because to be perfectly honest I find your argument a bit ignorant and stupid... you have yet to really make a decent point in relation to my questions.. other than you saying the universe created stuff not god. OK, but I have been talking about creation being concious or not.. I have not claimed I know what God is and how it works.

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Old 29-03-2015, 12:39 PM   #1176
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God isn't a guy with a beard sitting on a cloud. God is the most powerful force in the universe.
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Old 29-03-2015, 02:19 PM   #1177
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God isn't a guy with a beard sitting on a cloud. God is the most powerful force in the universe.
really?
which "god" would that be?
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Old 29-03-2015, 04:37 PM   #1178
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It doesn't matter 'which' god.

I would say everyone here is atheistic in some way. You believe in the Christian god? Then your an atheist when it come the every other one.

You believe gods a force of nature? Then your an atheist to the idea of a 'personal god.'

Where all atheists when it comes to the gods we don't beileve in. Me. I just go one god further....
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Old 29-03-2015, 04:59 PM   #1179
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It doesn't matter 'which' god.

I would say everyone here is atheistic in some way. You believe in the Christian god? Then your an atheist when it come the every other one.

You believe gods a force of nature? Then your an atheist to the idea of a 'personal god.'

Where all atheists when it comes to the gods we don't beileve in. Me. I just go one god further....
not true for me. I don't doubt that there are many spiritual beings in existence.
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Old 29-03-2015, 05:00 PM   #1180
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It doesn't matter 'which' god.

I would say everyone here is atheistic in some way. You believe in the Christian god? Then your an atheist when it come the every other one.
Hu?

No the word means "without god" .. so if you believe in a god then you are immediately removed from the Atheist pile.

If you believe in one god and no others, then you are a monotheist..

Having a view on what or who god is, is another argument to if there is a god or not.


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You believe gods a force of nature? Then your an atheist to the idea of a 'personal god.'
not at all, just because we cant identify how god is manifest it does not change if it is there or not.

your saying if we cant define god as a being like out selves, then its not really a being.

the chances are , and common sense tells us God would in no way be a being like our selves but something FAR more VAST.

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Where all atheists when it comes to the gods we don't beileve in. Me. I just go one god further....
There are ...

Anti-theists - do not believe there is a god and oppose those who do
Atheists - do not believe there is a god
Agnostics - do not know if there is or if there is not a God
Theist - Believes God or Gods exist
Monotheist - Believes one God exists
Polytheist - Believes more than one God exists

and you can cross bread a few of these together for taste.

But I have never heard of an Atheist who believes on a God.
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