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Old 22-12-2012, 04:49 PM   #21
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There is no need for Religion, especially this time of the year, as it interfers with the Shopping.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by lord of the flies View Post
There is no need for Religion, especially this time of the year, as it interfers with the Shopping.
Most of the people shopping are doing so because it is part of the religion to give gifts.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:03 PM   #23
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Athiesm is our default setting, why change it? We are all born non believers in any of the gods. I think you need an update to put you back to factory settings

Love and peace for all living being on the planet.
If that were true then why does every civilization and pagan primitive tribe worship God(s), spirits, demons, etc?
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:09 PM   #24
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If that were true then why does every civilization and pagan primitive tribe worship God(s), spirits, demons, etc?
Primitve, exactly.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:12 PM   #25
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Of course not, it's the rejection of all gods that makes one an atheist.
Yes, exactly.. and the word "God" carries a very broad definition going well beyond the "God" of Abrahamic fundamentalism. One can't, or at least shouldn't, call themselves an atheist for merely having non belief in the Abrahamic God. For example, a pantheist can not be an atheist unless they're playing with the definitions to suit themselves.

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Originally Posted by selig
I would say pantheism is more compatible with atheism than it is monotheism, but that does depend on what your definition of monotheism and pantheism is I suppose.

http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm

http://www.pantheism.net/paul/
I agree this is where it becomes semantics. But if you keep it simple..

pantheism = all is god (or gods)
panentheism = all is part of God?
monotheism = there is one god

In Icke's view, for example, his "God" is infinite consciousness as the root/essence of all that is. His view is arguably pan[en]theistic and it's technically a form of monotheism (since he argues we're all part of this one all pervading consciousness).

Jewish kaballah, Christian gnosticism, & Islamic mysticism also promote similar spiritual philosophies that aren't far from pantheism, yet are still within the fold of monotheism.

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Originally Posted by selig
I would also say that a belief in an immortal soul is just that, and that there really is no need to deduce that a god exists because one believes a soul is immortal.
Not surprisingly, this again depends on your definition of God. As Drakul suggested, the immortal soul would technically be "God". Many atheists tend to narrow the definition so they can distinguish themselves from anything to do with "spirituality", another term being redefined as if it's something totally exclusive from even the most subtle forms of "materiality".

In truth spirituality/science/nature have never been incompatible/separate. It's only dogmatic literalists in organized religion who argue otherwise..
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:16 PM   #26
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Most of the people shopping are doing so because it is part of the religion to give gifts.
Hmm,yes. An eleven year old expecting an iphone 5, so they can connect with a man apparently nailed to some wood ages ago.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:18 PM   #27
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Hmm,yes. An eleven year old expecting an iphone 5, so they can connect with a man apparently nailed to some wood ages ago.
This makes absolutely no sense. Do you mind to rephrase?
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:23 PM   #28
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The churches are becoming more and more empty and people are dabbling in the occult and New Age. Those paths are hardly Christian. People pick 'Christianity' because of cultural identity. But I bet that has changed over the decades.

Atheist families? Nobody calls their family an atheist family. So you don't know any non-religious family? Well that's odd to say the least.
You are also born without reason, table manners, and a whole range of other things.
You'd probably be surprised by how Christian Western occultism actually is. Even so, around where I live, there's quite the stigma on anything Occult.

Most of the people around here consider themselves Christian, yes. Parents tend to be more conservative, and indeed, people with children tend to be more Christian (traditional).
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:40 PM   #29
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Yes, exactly.. and the word "God" carries a very broad definition going well beyond the "God" of Abrahamic fundamentalism. One can't, or at least shouldn't, call themselves an atheist for merely having non belief in the Abrahamic God. For example, a pantheist can not be an atheist unless they're playing with the definitions to suit themselves.
I disagree. One could define god as a personal higher power, an entity as it were, and still believe everything is part of the Divine One. You could say this is playing the definitions, but that's just comes with the Pantheist territory.

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I agree this is where it becomes semantics. But if you keep it simple..

pantheism = all is god (or gods)
panentheism = all is part of God?
monotheism = there is one god

In Icke's view, for example, his "God" is infinite consciousness as the root/essence of all that is. His view is arguably pan[en]theistic and it's technically a form of monotheism (since he argues we're all part of this one all pervading consciousness).
One could say that your playing the definitions to call the universe a single god.

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Originally Posted by kappy0405 View Post
Jewish kaballah, Christian gnosticism, & Islamic mysticism also promote similar spiritual philosophies that aren't far from pantheism, yet are still within the fold of monotheism.
Sure, but the problem is that words like "God" are up to the individual to define.

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Originally Posted by kappy0405 View Post
Not surprisingly, this again depends on your definition of God. As Drakul suggested, the immortal soul would technically be "God". Many atheists tend to narrow the definition so they can distinguish themselves from anything to do with "spirituality", another term being redefined as if it's something totally exclusive from even the most subtle forms of "materiality".

In truth spirituality/science/nature have never been incompatible/separate. It's only dogmatic literalists in organized religion who argue otherwise..
I agree.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:41 PM   #30
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Religion is losing it's grip on people's minds, hence the reason for the anti atheists campaigns and rhetoric.
Hardly, people are replacing traditional religion with New Age in the Western world. In the non-Western world there's hardly a decline in religion.
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The people don't want to be controlled anymore, we want to be free to think and believe what makes sense to us. There is no reason to slander a people for exercising that freedom.
Other non-religious authorities take over the power of the Church. You only think you are ''free to think and believe what makes sense'' to you.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:41 PM   #31
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You appear to be in the awkward position of having not done any research into what you are attacking...
Actually that's not true, I have put years of thought and action into my statement regarding the WORK needed to attain Higher-God Consciousness.

1. Whether a Buddhist is an atheist or not - he still struggles and WORKS to attain Higher Consciousness. As your second video points out - meditation is very hard work requiring much dedication and concentration. How many atheists have actually devoted a sincere and ongoing segment of their lives to meditation? Very few. I never heard Dawkins claim to meditate. Does he?

2. I lived and worked in Thailand which is 98% Buddhist. The vast majority of Thais believe in the Immortal Soul and re-incarnation. In fact I discussed this question with Buddhist priests in temples in Chieng Mai.

The majority of SEA Buddhists and Thai Buddhists do believe in souls, rebirth and other entities. They also believe in 7 levels of Hell and of Heavan, but it is not necessary. You can be an atheist and still practice Buddhism:


Rebirth-

Rebirth refers to a process whereby beings go through a succession of lifetimes as one of many possible forms of sentient life, each running from conception[34] to death. Buddhism rejects the concepts of a permanent self or an unchanging, eternal soul, as it is called in Hinduism and Christianity. According to Buddhism there ultimately is no such thing as a self independent from the rest of the universe (the doctrine of anatta). Rebirth in subsequent existences must be understood as the continuation of a dynamic, ever-changing process of "dependent arising" ("pratītyasamutpāda") determined by the laws of cause and effect (karma) rather than that of one being, transmigrating or incarnating from one existence to the next.

Each rebirth takes place within one of five realms according to Theravadins, or six according to other schools.[35][36] These are further subdivided into 31 planes of existence:[37]

Naraka beings: those who live in one of many Narakas (Hells);
Preta: sometimes sharing some space with humans, but invisible to most people; an important variety is the hungry ghost;[38]
Animals: sharing space with humans, but considered another type of life;
Human beings: one of the realms of rebirth in which attaining Nirvana is possible;
Asuras: variously translated as lowly deities, demons, titans, antigods; not recognized by Theravāda (Mahavihara) tradition as a separate realm;[39]
Devas including Brahmas: variously translated as gods, deities, spirits, angels, or left untranslated.

Rebirths in some of the higher heavens, known as the Śuddhāvāsa Worlds (Pure Abodes), can be attained by only skilled Buddhist practitioners known as anāgāmis (non-returners). Rebirths in the arupa-dhatu (formless realms) can be attained by only those who can meditate on the arūpajhānas, the highest object of meditation.


3 While it is true that Buddha did not admit to the existence of an Atman - Higher Soul - he did frequently talk about the WONDER of Nature and the mystery of where it came from. He may have had important reasons for not admitting the existence of the Immortal Soul - because under Hindu law, he was not allowed to teach Untouchables. These restrictions against teaching Untouchables were based on the Hindu Caste system based on reincarnation - the merit of past lives. By denying the existence of the Immortal Soul - Buddha denied the caste system and was able to teach everyone. He had to leave Hinduism to do it.

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Old 22-12-2012, 05:42 PM   #32
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Hmm,yes. An eleven year old expecting an iphone 5, so they can connect with a man apparently nailed to some wood ages ago.
Not that Christmas is Christian to begin with...
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:44 PM   #33
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Hardly, people are replacing traditional religion with New Age in the Western world. In the non-Western world there's hardly a decline in religion.
New Age-religion isn't really as common as you think it is. For most people it's just a novelty, they'll read about it for a few months, perhaps, and let it slide.

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Other non-religious authorities take over the power of the Church. You only think you are ''free to think and believe what makes sense'' to you.
So... Mind control?
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:47 PM   #34
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If that were true then why does every civilization and pagan primitive tribe worship God(s), spirits, demons, etc?
Fear? who can tell, but the fact is we are all born not believing in any of the gods out there to choose from.We are told who to believe in from an early age from society around us.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:51 PM   #35
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New Age-religion isn't really as common as you think it is. For most people it's just a novelty, they'll read about it for a few months, perhaps, and let it slide.
That's not true. The New Age is not a religion, it is a specific approach towards religion. Plenty churches are preaching New Age ideals and workshops. And one only has to go to a local bookshop in the city and compare the number of science books or philosophy books to the number of New Age books. Check the popular magazines while you're at it. But if you live in a remote Scandinavian forest village you won't really be aware of the trends.
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Old 22-12-2012, 05:52 PM   #36
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Fear? who can tell, but the fact is we are all born not believing in any of the gods out there to choose from.We are told who to believe in from an early age from society around us.
So which came first? The chicken or the egg?

The fact is that God came first, before fear. Scientists have done studies showing that `man is hardwired to God'. In fact, people have to be conditioned NOT to believe in a Higher Consciousness.
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Old 22-12-2012, 06:05 PM   #37
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I disagree. One could define god as a personal higher power, an entity as it were, and still believe everything is part of the Divine One. You could say this is playing the definitions, but that's just comes with the Pantheist territory...

..One could say that your playing the definitions to call the universe a single god.
If someone believes everything is God AND that everything is ONE.. that's patheism AND monotheism, both are compatible. I don't see how that's a play on words..


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Originally Posted by pr0fanus
Sure, but the problem is that words like "God" are up to the individual to define.
Agreed, & that's where semantics plays a part & the discussion becomes kind of pointless. However, if we use the established definition of the word "God":

Main Entry: 1god Pronunciation: \ˈgäd alsoˈgȯd\Function : nounEtymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got godDate: before 12th century
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe bChristian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit: infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship;specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value

Then a pantheist (who believes all is God) can clearly not be an atheist (no God). Besides the broader definition of "God", most pantheists do acknowledge a "spiritual" force outside of 5 sense physicality, contrary to secular atheism.

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Originally Posted by kappy0405
Not surprisingly, this again depends on your definition of God. As Drakul suggested, the immortal soul would technically be "God". Many atheists tend to narrow the definition so they can distinguish themselves from anything to do with "spirituality", another term being redefined as if it's something totally exclusive from even the most subtle forms of "materiality".

In truth spirituality/science/nature have never been incompatible/separate. It's only dogmatic literalists in organized religion who argue otherwise..
I agree.
I should have added that many atheists also tend to claim spirituality/science/nature are separate as well..

But Gnostics/Mystics and some more open minded Atheists (few & far between) can often find common ground..
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Old 22-12-2012, 06:15 PM   #38
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That's not true. The New Age is not a religion, it is a specific approach towards religion. Plenty churches are preaching New Age ideals and workshops. And one only has to go to a local bookshop in the city and compare the number of science books or philosophy books to the number of New Age books. Check the popular magazines while you're at it. But if you live in a remote Scandinavian forest village you won't really be aware of the trends.
"Churches"? What churches? I'm aware of the amount of material being published, I just don't buy people being committed to it. For the record, the amount of books that would qualify as "new age" isn't really that large in the bookstores I visit, but I realize that isn't the case in other countries. However, I can always check amazon(.co.uk): Science & Nature (1,867,636), Religion & Spirituality (870,927), Mind, Body & Spirit (374,153), Society, Politics & Philosophy (1,932,270).
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Old 22-12-2012, 06:17 PM   #39
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So which came first? The chicken or the egg?

The fact is that God came first, before fear. Scientists have done studies showing that `man is hardwired to God'. In fact, people have to be conditioned NOT to believe in a Higher Consciousness.
Gods probably did come first, man made to keep the masses in their place , and the fear was introduced by those who invented them.
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Old 22-12-2012, 06:20 PM   #40
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"Churches"? What churches? I'm aware of the amount of material being published, I just don't buy people being committed to it. For the record, the amount of books that would qualify as "new age" isn't really that large in the bookstores I visit, but I realize that isn't the case in other countries. However, I can always check amazon(.co.uk): Science & Nature (1,867,636), Religion & Spirituality (870,927), Mind, Body & Spirit (374,153), Society, Politics & Philosophy (1,932,270).
The number of books mean nothing without knowing the content, and knowing how many are sold. Even if more science books are sold it does not make the influence of the New Age trivial. I am also getting different results than you.

Edit; let's get back to atheism.

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