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Old 15-07-2015, 12:46 PM   #21
hande
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Originally Posted by pinochio View Post
I have visited a concentration camp.My point is that the past is past get over it.The Holocaust industry however will not let it go.
I agree that a certain community need to stop squealing holocaust after every perceived slight.

On the other hand it should never be forgotten, lest we allow it to happen again.

But remembering it as a low point in European history is not the same as using it as a stick with which to beat the Germans, few are alive now who would have had direct knowledge let alone involvement.


Rather like the European Slave trade it was done and is nothing to do with us, so demanding guilt from us for what our ancestors might have done is ridiculous.
However it is right we teach it in our schools and its right that we emphasise that what made it worse than previous slave trades was not just the scale but how badly the slaves were treated by a supposedly enlightened race.
We should also teach that Slaves were often sold to Europeans and Arabs by African tribes* and that Arab Slavers used to raid Cornwall.

Expunging unpleasant things from history is denying our past, which for better or worse made our today.

* I think that bit isn't taught at school because it smacks of yes we took Black people as slaves but its the black peoples fault. Clearly not the case nor the intended message.

We also omit white slaves (principally Irish and unemployed English / children) who were effectively sold into slavery on plantations. The demand for African slaves was arguably because white people died to easily in the Caribbean. I think because African slaves were Hardier in that climate and had more chance of surviving not because they were cheaper. If somebody else can expand on that

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Old 15-07-2015, 04:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by hande View Post
I have no doubt the events took place, mans ability for inhumane violence against his fellow man never ceases to amaze me.

I get pissed off that its always 6 Million died quoted - It wasn't it was 12 unfortunately the Holocaust has been hijacked as purely a crime against Jews.

Its also worth remembering that many debunking sites point to the number of dead and capacity to kill and find the 2 incompatible. Unfortunately it ignores the fact that most were not gassed etc but simply starved/worked to death.

I assume you've never visited a concentration camp, may I suggest you do so it may alter your perspective.
I grew up near Belson, I have no doubt that it was what they said it was.
Well I agree with some of what you said, but im not sure about any real holocaust im afraid. Although there have definitely been plenty of genocides in history that people should highlight, but sadly this one is always considered more important & we even have this million pound center they are building in London for this BS.

To me there's a huge stench on so many levels & the lies are allowed to carried on.
That is a crime in itself & definitely mocks those who were sent to them concentration camps against their will.
But these Orwellian laws they've brought in to silence anyone who dares question the official story should tell anyone its a pack of lies.

Tell me how does visiting a concentration camp proves anything.
Isnt it just more mass indoctrination?

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Old 15-07-2015, 05:21 PM   #23
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Well I agree with everything you said, but im not sure about any real holocaust im afraid. Although there have definitely been plenty of genocides in history that people should highlight, but sadly this one is always considered more important & we even have this million pound center they are building in London for this BS.

To me there's a huge stench on so many levels & the lies are allowed to carried on.
That is a crime in itself & definitely mocks those who were sent to them concentration camps against their will.
But these Orwellian laws they've brought in to silence anyone who dares question the official story should tell anyone its a pack of lies.

Tell me how does visiting a concentration camp proves anything.
Isnt it just more mass indoctrination?


Visiting - get a feel for the place I was only 9 or 10 when I went with classmates - that was over 30 years ago, I can still remember the sense of despair about the place - the only school trip I can recall where nobody got up to mischief.

Im not sure you can indoctrinate that feeling.

As regards authenticity
As I said I lived near it, nobody ever denied what it was. Some attempted to justify it and equate it to Allied bombings others tried to claim it was not intended that disease and allied bombing lead to the conditions ie allies fault.
Now theres an element of truth at Belson allied action did stop food getting through and typhus was rife. But they didn't become emaciated and conditions deteriorate so far in a few days.

I completely agree with you re the Holocaust denial laws, the Irony is they were bought in to prevent people denying it happened but in fact there existence encourages people to scepticism.

Ive said previously it pisses me off that 1 group have monopolised it and the others are often forgotten.
Quite right theres a few other atrocities in recent history that need bringing to the fore.
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Old 15-07-2015, 05:44 PM   #24
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Visiting - get a feel for the place I was only 9 or 10 when I went with classmates - that was over 30 years ago, I can still remember the sense of despair about the place - the only school trip I can recall where nobody got up to mischief.

Im not sure you can indoctrinate that feeling.

As regards authenticity
As I said I lived near it, nobody ever denied what it was. Some attempted to justify it and equate it to Allied bombings others tried to claim it was not intended that disease and allied bombing lead to the conditions ie allies fault.
Now theres an element of truth at Belson allied action did stop food getting through and typhus was rife. But they didn't become emaciated and conditions deteriorate so far in a few days.

I completely agree with you re the Holocaust denial laws, the Irony is they were bought in to prevent people denying it happened but in fact there existence encourages people to scepticism.

Ive said previously it pisses me off that 1 group have monopolised it and the others are often forgotten.
Quite right theres a few other atrocities in recent history that need bringing to the fore.
You are right I would have to go there myself to feel any vibes about the place.

What we are seeing is a cover up in itself & definitely has lead to people believing that the Nazis wernt bad & Hitler was a good guy.
I dont think this personally for a second.
Although I dont think Hitler was born a monster as he is portrayed & the cover up is in the suppression of why he went about doing the things he did with full support of his people..after all this guy was a very popular leader who done a lot of good in his time.
Instead we get this non stop barrage of cliché Hollywood movies & documentaries which is some dumbed down bullshit that takes us all for simpletons.
Meanwhile we are living in a time with a regime imo far worse than Hitler.
And no one bats an eye lid lol. Crazy world.
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Old 15-07-2015, 06:26 PM   #25
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CODOH forum on: "Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'"


CODOH forum: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Looks like the attribution of the words, 'I saw the gas chambers...' to Herr Groning, is just another in a long list of lies from the BiBiC and it's number one shyster, Laurence Rees ...

Same old, same old H, bs narrative ...



.

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Old 15-07-2015, 06:28 PM   #26
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This is one of those cases that should never have been brought.

He is guilty only of being there, he was not an active participant in the persecution of minority groups*.

What justice has been served.

* Whilst we all know (and aren't allowed to forget ) about the 6 million Jews, we seem to have forgotten that there were another 6 million non Jews exterminated/ starved and worked to death. Possibly more because I don't recall if that includes Slavs that died in POW camps on the Eastern front, or just those in POW/Labour camps in Germany/Poland/ France/Channel Islands etc.
And the millions of "missing" German citizens...

What justice has been served ?

None other than Talmudic revenge.

As per ...

Which, imo, also underpins much of the modern paradigm ...

Posters here, might also like to consider what kind of defence they would attempt to mount in OG's or any accused shoes, in a German "court".

Whilst you're considering your options, be reminded that any attempt at offering evidence contrary to the official narrative, would amount to denial of "the crime" which is illegal.

Ditto for your defence counsel.

So what would you do / which path would you take ?





.

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Old 15-07-2015, 06:48 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by markgobell View Post
CODOH forum on: "Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'"


CODOH forum: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Looks like the attribution of the words, 'I saw the gas chambers...' to Herr Groning, is just another in a long list of lies from the BiBiC and it's number one shyster, Laurence Rees ...

Same old, same old H, bs narrative ...



.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277673

Still promoting a Neo Nazi site pathetic.

Quote:
Gröning said nothing in response to these statements,[20] replying only: "I know a little more about that, we should discuss it some time."[2] The man recommended a pamphlet by Holocaust denier Thies Christophersen.[2] Gröning obtained a copy and mailed it to Christophersen, having written his own commentary on it, which included the words:
I saw everything, the gas chambers, the cremations, the selection process. One and a half million Jews were murdered in Auschwitz. I was there.[2]
Gröning then began receiving phone calls and letters from strangers who tried to tell him Auschwitz was not actually a place for exterminating human beings in gas chambers.[20]




It became apparent that his comments condemning Holocaust denial had been printed in a neo-Nazi magazine, and that most of the anonymous calls and letters were, "From people who tried to prove that what I had seen with my own eyes, what I had experienced in Auschwitz was a big, big mistake, a big hallucination on my part because it hadn't happened."[20]


As a result of such comments, Gröning decided to speak openly about his experiences, and publicly denounce people who maintain the events he witnessed never happened.[20] He says his message to Holocaust deniers is:
I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened because I was there.[21]
He also wrote memoirs for his family,[20] consisting of 87 pages.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Gr%C3%B6ning
Your other mate got canned because he couldn't debunk it.
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Old 15-07-2015, 06:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by markgobell View Post
And the millions of "missing" German citizens...

What justice has been served ?

None other than Talmudic revenge.

As per ...

Which, imo, also underpins much of the modern paradigm ...

Posters here, might also like to consider what kind of defence they would attempt to mount in OG's or any accused shoes, in a German "court".

Whilst you're considering your options, be reminded that any attempt at offering evidence contrary to the official narrative, would amount to denial of "the crime" which is illegal.

Ditto for your defence counsel.

So what would you do / which path would you take ?





.

Ah ha, typical with Neo Nazi's to justify their jew hatred they turn it back onto the Jews.
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Old 15-07-2015, 06:56 PM   #29
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I dont agree that Oskar should have gone to court in the first place, he was a bookkeeper and a pawn in the NAZI regime.

It was already determined by the Nuremberg trials that the ones who were just taking order's were not accountable, however those Nazi who were sadist and got away with their brutality should still be punished.

These court cases WOULDN'T COME UP IF IT WASN'T FOR NEO NAZI'S WHO TRY AND JUSTIFY THE NAZI REGIME.

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Old 15-07-2015, 07:19 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by hande View Post
I have no doubt the events took place, mans ability for inhumane violence against his fellow man never ceases to amaze me.

I get pissed off that its always 6 Million died quoted - It wasn't it was 12 unfortunately the Holocaust has been hijacked as purely a crime against Jews.

Its also worth remembering that many debunking sites point to the number of dead and capacity to kill and find the 2 incompatible. Unfortunately it ignores the fact that most were not gassed etc but simply starved/worked to death.

I assume you've never visited a concentration camp, may I suggest you do so it may alter your perspective.
I grew up near Belson, I have no doubt that it was what they said it was.

I do too because it's not true and the msm just quote that because they dont do facts,just sound bites, another thing is the lie that six million jews were gassed, it's not so many of the murder's were committed by the mobile death squads who went in after the Nazi Army had taken land.

And many Jews in ghettos were starved.

Neo nazi take advantage of the msm inability to get the facts straight, but it is a fact the Jews were the main target of the Nazi regime, there can be no denying this.
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Old 15-07-2015, 08:23 PM   #31
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Quote:

Originally Posted by markgobell View Post
CODOH forum on: "Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'"


CODOH forum: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Looks like the attribution of the words, 'I saw the gas chambers...' to Herr Groning, is just another in a long list of lies from the BiBiC and it's number one shyster, Laurence Rees ...

Same old, same old H, bs narrative ...

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277673

Still promoting a Neo Nazi site pathetic.



Your other mate got canned because he couldn't debunk it.

Boots

Since you clearly have issues with certain sources, which compel you to seek refuge in epithets.

Allow me to reciprocate.

Perhaps you might acquaint yourself with your fellow Neo-Talmudist propagandists, thus:

Holocaust Controveries: When deniers are right

I thought you knew your stuff Boots ...


.
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Old 15-07-2015, 08:45 PM   #32
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Boots

Since you clearly have issues with certain sources, which compel you to seek refuge in epithets.

Allow me to reciprocate.

Perhaps you might acquaint yourself with your fellow Neo-Talmudist propagandists, thus:

Holocaust Controveries: When deniers are right

I thought you knew your stuff Boots ...


.

Twat, I already know about that.

From that SAME link.

Quote:
Laurence Rees said...
I do take your point. I know the BBC is looking at trying to make much more information available online. But I fear it won't silence the deniers as - in my view - they are like the flat earth society and simply deaf to reason. Meantime much fuller versions of Mr Groening's testimony are already available in published form in the book of the series which I wrote. On page 373 of the British paperback edition, for example, you can read a more complete section of his interview where he talks about seeing the gas chambers. It was this section which was edited down for inclusion in programme six of the series. Elsewhere, on page 207 he describes seeing the Zyklon B inserted into a gas chamber.

Real Historians admit when they are wrong, 'revisionist' dont, because they aren't seeking the truth, they twist and cherry pick info to push an agenda.
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Old 15-07-2015, 08:49 PM   #33
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Twat, I already know about that.

From that SAME link.




Real Historians admit when they are wrong, 'revisionist' dont, because they aren't seeking the truth, they twist and cherry pick info to push an agenda.

So, you already knew about the fact that the BiBiC video did not include OG actually saying the words "I saw the gas chambers ...", preferring to, allegedly, edit out this ickle nugget, in preference to the printed words in the Laurence Rees book ...

and yet, your first reaction is to attempt to smear the source of that fact as being neo-Nazi, and then call me a twat for pointing out your ommission ...

Interesting style you have Boots ...

No more debate from me matey peeps ...

Tata.



.

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Old 15-07-2015, 08:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by markgobell View Post
So, you already knew about the fact that the BiBiC video did not include OG actually saying the words "I saw the gas chambers ...", preferring to, allegedly, edit out this ickle nugget, in preference to the printed words in the Laurence Rees book ...

and yet, your first reaction is to attempt to smear the source of that fact as being neo-Nazi, and then call me a twat for pointing out your ommission ...

Interesting style you have Boots ...

No more debate from me matey peeps ...

Tata.



.
I'm NOT your matey, pal.

It doesn't detract from what he saw and experienced at Auschwitz. Although you would like to belief it does.

Quote:
However, his bureaucratic job did not shield him completely from physical acts of the extermination process: as early as his first day, Gröning saw children hidden on the train and people unable to walk that had remained among the rubbish and debris after the selection process had been completed, being shot.[3]:138 Gröning also heard:
...a baby crying. The child was lying on the ramp, wrapped in rags. A mother had left it behind, perhaps because she knew that women with infants were sent to the gas chambers immediately. I saw another SS soldier grab the baby by the legs. The crying had bothered him. He smashed the baby's head against the iron side of a truck until it was silent.[4]
After witnessing this, Gröning went to his boss and told him that he was not able to work at Auschwitz any more, stating that if the extermination of the Jews is necessary, "then at least it should be done within a certain framework".[3]:138 The superior officer denied Gröning's request.[3]:138
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_...ote-Rees301-21

Quote:
One night towards the end of 1942, Gröning and his comrades in their SS barracks on the outskirts of Birkenau were awakened by an alar[3]:166–167



They were told that a number of Jews who were being taken to the gas chambers had escaped and hidden in the woods. They were ordered to take pistols and search the woods.[3]:167 When his group arrived at the extermination area of the camp they saw a farmhouse, in front of which were SS men and the bodies of seven or eight prisoners who had been caught and shot.[3]:167 The SS men told Gröning and his comrades that they could go home but they decided to hang around in the shadows of the woods.


They watched as an SS man put on a gas mask and emptied a tin of Zyklon B into a hatch in the cottage wall. Gröning said the humming noise from inside "turned to screaming" for a minute, then to silence.[3]:167 A comrade later showed him the bodies being burnt in a pit. A Kapo there told him details of the burning, such as how gases developed in the body and made the burning corpses move.[3]:167


The relative tranquility that Gröning's job gave him was once again broken and he again complained to his boss.[3]:167–168 His boss, an SS-Untersturmführer, listened to him but reminded him of the pledge that he and his comrades made to accept it, Groning returned to work, mindful of the fact that he could manipulate his life at Auschwitz so as to avoid witnessing the camp's most unpalatable aspects.[3]:168
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Old 15-07-2015, 09:09 PM   #35
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I'm NOT your matey, pal.

It doesn't detract from what he saw and experienced at Auschwitz. Although you would like to belief it does.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_...ote-Rees301-21
Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-eyes-have-it/ This leaves out 'peer pressure', 'sense of responsibility', 'survivor's guilt', and many other subconcious bias that skews the 'credible' eyewitness accounts of events.

Also if it was chocking to death, I wouldn't be able to scream
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Old 15-07-2015, 09:19 PM   #36
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Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-eyes-have-it/ This leaves out 'peer pressure', 'sense of responsibility', 'survivor's guilt', and many other subconcious bias that skews the 'credible' eyewitness accounts of events.

Also if it was chocking to death, I wouldn't be able to scream
Wouldn't you, it's a gas not water. Also how do you know they weren't screaming before the gas was inserted?

Quote:
One of the issues that has arisen in connection with the Holocaust is the reliability of eyewitness testimony. Holocaust deniers are forever attacking eyewitnesses as liars or people prone to exaggeration. There can be no doubt that not all eyewitness testimony is reliable. Also, it is true that some witnesses lie or exaggerate.



The main problem with such testimony, however, is that there will often be inconsistencies with regard to details. This is not unusual. Any prosecuting attorney knows that there are differences in the way witnesses view an event. But even though witnesses may differ as to the details of an event, they are seldom wrong as to the event itself. Thus, witnesses to the number of people who could be gassed in the gas chamber of Crematorium I at Auschwitz gave such varying amounts as 600, 700, 900, and 1000. 1 Holocaust deniers exploit the differences in this type of testimony by claiming that if there are differences as to the number of people who could be gassed, then there must be doubt as to whether the event occurred.
Holocaust historians have not avoided the issue of the reliability of such testimony. The late Holocaust historian Lucy Dawidowicz wrote:
Many thousands of oral histories by survivors recounting their experiences exist in countries and archives around the world. Their quality and usefulness vary significantly according to the informant's memory, grasp of events, insights and of course accuracy. The longer the time lapsed [between the event and the testimony] the less likely the informant has retained freshness of recollection. The transcribed testimonies I have examined have been full of errors in dates, names of participants, and places, and there are evident misunderstandings of the events themselves. To the unwary researcher some of the accounts can be more hazard than help. 2
http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...hoess-memoirs/

Quote:
How then can the reliability of such testimony be evaluated? One method is to compare it to other testimony on the subject. Is the testimony consistent overall when compared to other testimony on the same event? Another method is to compare the testimony to other corroborative evidence. Is there some documentary evidence that supports the testimony?

For example, Miklos Nyiszli was a Jewish doctor who was part of the Hungarian transports deported to Auschwitz from May to July 1944. His memoirs were written in March 1946 and published in Budapest in 1947. A copy of the original Hungarian is at the UCLA main library. They were translated into English in 1960. Nyiszli served as a prisoner doctor to the notorious Joseph Mengele. He witnessed the bodies of dead gassing victims and the burnings of bodies in the Crematoriums. He also witnessed the burning pits dug by the Auschwitz authorities to dispose of the murdered victims. How can his testimony be evaluated?

His testimony can be classified as victim testimony, the essentials of which have been verified by other victims. Perpetrators have also verified the essential aspects of his testimony. 6 But there is other evidence by which the veracity of his testimony can be evaluated. Nyiszli wrote that while he was at Auschwitz there were 860 special commando prisoners assigned to the four crematoriums to dispose of the murdered victims. 7 This is a very large number and is consistent with what the camp authorities would need to dispose of victims who were being murdered en masse. A camp labor deployment list dated August 29, 1944 shows 874 special workers assigned to the four crematoria. They are evenly divided among those installations and divided again into day and night shifts. 8 Thus, Nyiszli is a very credible witness based on this independent corroboration.

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Old 15-07-2015, 11:22 PM   #37
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Wouldn't you, it's a gas not water. Also how do you know they weren't screaming before the gas was inserted?

Holocaust historians have not avoided the issue of the reliability of such testimony. The late Holocaust historian Lucy Dawidowicz wrote:
Many thousands of oral histories by survivors recounting their experiences exist in countries and archives around the world. Their quality and usefulness vary significantly according to the informant's memory, grasp of events, insights and of course accuracy. The longer the time lapsed [between the event and the testimony] the less likely the informant has retained freshness of recollection. The transcribed testimonies I have examined have been full of errors in dates, names of participants, and places, and there are evident misunderstandings of the events themselves. To the unwary researcher some of the accounts can be more hazard than help. 2
http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...hoess-memoirs/
All bullshit.
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Old 15-07-2015, 11:32 PM   #38
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All bullshit.

Well done ronison I bet you thought long and hard about your answer
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Old 15-07-2015, 11:57 PM   #39
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Wouldn't you, it's a gas not water. Also how do you know they weren't screaming before the gas was inserted?

Holocaust historians have not avoided the issue of the reliability of such testimony. The late Holocaust historian Lucy Dawidowicz wrote:
Many thousands of oral histories by survivors recounting their experiences exist in countries and archives around the world. Their quality and usefulness vary significantly according to the informant's memory, grasp of events, insights and of course accuracy. The longer the time lapsed [between the event and the testimony] the less likely the informant has retained freshness of recollection. The transcribed testimonies I have examined have been full of errors in dates, names of participants, and places, and there are evident misunderstandings of the events themselves. To the unwary researcher some of the accounts can be more hazard than help. 2
http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...hoess-memoirs/
It (the pellets) vaporize when exposed to air, so yes I do know its not water. However my point still stands, worse still is the fact it acts very quickly even in a grown man. So there is no way people would be able to scream, most would be knocked out in under a minute and dead in two. Also nobody knows if they were or weren't screaming before the cans were dropped in.

You highlighted the text ''But even though witnesses may differ as to the details of an event, they are seldom wrong as to the event itself'' from the holocaust-history website. But it could be said they are wrong, science tells us that. By this I mean eyewitness accounts are wrong. Even if they aren't then they are highly unreliable and shouldn't be used. I'm not debating if the event/s happened or not, just the account/s of said event/s. Sadly this is human nature and has many failings. Science should help the justice system more

In 1984 Kirk Bloods worth was convicted of the rape and murder of a nine-year old girl and sentenced to the gas chamber, an outcome that rested largely on the testimony of five eyewitnesses. After Bloodsworth served nine years in prison, DNA testing proved him to be innocent. If the DNA testing had never happened he would have been killed by the state. Also surveys show that most jurors place heavy weight on eyewitness testimony when deciding whether a suspect is guilty or not. It gets much worse as many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals. Also in follow-up interviews, 25% still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies. This leaves out many other factors too, like 'peer pressure', 'sense of responsibility', 'inaccurate recall,' 'survivor's guilt', ect.
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''Chlorine is a deadly poison gas employed on European battlefields in World War I. Sodium is a corrosive metal which burns upon contact with water. Together they make a placid and unpoisonous material, table salt. Why each of these substances has the properties it does is a subject called chemistry'' - Carl Sagan

Why is it that the loudest critics of ''Big Pharma'' are Big Placebo?

Last edited by dumbcritic; 15-07-2015 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 16-07-2015, 12:36 AM   #40
ronisron
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Originally Posted by boots View Post
Well done ronison I bet you thought long and hard about your answer
No it was easy. You make it that way.
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