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Old 06-06-2013, 12:16 AM   #2001
abrilliantone
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Why Veganism Must Be Abolished: an Interview with Vegan Represent Founder Dave D


Dave D went vegan in 1999 for ethical reasons, and was a good obedient vegan for about a decade. He volunteered for EarthSave and several animal interest organizations, founded one of the first and consequently biggest vegan group on Meetup.com, and created one of the original vegan message boards — "Vegan Represent".

I would have included a hyperlink to Vegan Represent, except it no longer exists. That's because Dave D started to question veganism last year; after announcing this to the disappointment and confusion of his forum members, he started the vegan heretic blog Pythagorean Crank, and then took down Vegan Represent to make room for a new pro-animal message board, Plant-Based People.

Dave D still doesn't eat animal products and continues to fight for animal liberation. Just don't call him vegan.

What led to your break with veganism last year?

The break was instigated by my discovery of critical thinking. As a vegan activist I was a cohort of a lot of pseudoscientific propagation. Once I realized that, I had to resolve the cognitive dissonance of being associated with a movement that was mired in so much nonsense. At first I had a sense that I could fix things and re-own the word but that seemed too fundamentalist and caused too much strife. I decided to leave and find my own path.

Something that influenced you was comparing the Vegan Society's more recent definition of veganism to its original definition. Why did that have such an impact?

Well, as I was struggling with the definition of what vegan meant, I got all prescriptivist and went back to the original source of the term. It was some nutty British dude named Donald Watson and with it he founded the Vegan Society. This it how he defined it:
Quote:
A way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals.
35 years later they updated the definition like so:
Quote:
Veganism denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude – as far as is possible and practical – all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals, and the environment.
Basically they watered down the animal justice aspects with anthropocentric appeals. I originally signed on for the aspects of peace and reverence like Watson originally describes but I never could wrap my head around the other two "pillars". For a while I was bashing away at these arguments, claiming the righteousness of my own interpretation. When I stopped and looked at the originating point of contention, I realized it was codified in the revamped definition all along. Before that, I felt betrayed and exploited by leaders in the movement or gurus co-opting the term. It turned into embarrassment though when I had to accept that, no, this is what veganism is. I was the one who was wrong.
Do you no longer believe in veganism?

I'm not sure what there is to believe in veganism exactly. I don't believe it will make me skinny, solve global climate change, or even instill an idea of animal rights. My whole activist career I used "veganism" as my softball cause but there really is no -ism there. I was denying the scary implications that this might be something deeper than I was ready to confront. Now that I've exhausted my search for meaning in veganism and come up empty-handed, I'm ready to explore the depths of these implications.

You still don’t consume animal products. How do you explain to people that despite this, you’re not a vegan?

It's a lot harder to get into the vegan club than it is to get out. All I have to do is admit to drinking any beer (regardless of the blessing from Barnivore) with reckless abandon or not-checking the SKU of the bag of Skittles I've been eating that indicates the factory's use of bone char sugar, etc. Recently, for example, I was just at a conference in Vegas and ate my fill of a vegetable stir-fry buffet made on the same grill with animal flesh. What vegan would do that?

I think it's silly for people to judge me according to the animal molecules I do or do not ingest instead of the thoughts I posses. This focus on consumption quickly reaches absurd levels of obsessive compulsiveness and becomes this dogmatic thing.

The tagline of Pythagorean Crank is "By vegan abolition we mean abolishing veganism." Great line — one I wish I thought of! Since you still have vegan habits, there must be something else about veganism that you don't like. Why does veganism, or at least certain aspects of it, need to be abolished?

Oh thanks! BTW that's just one of my taglines for Pythagorean Crank, they rotate.

So, my not-using-animals is part of how I put my beliefs into action. If there is a situation where using animal products becomes more of a hassle than an infraction of my ideology, I'll bend and use that product. Peter Singer said something to this effect and was ruthlessly chastised, so I feel I'm in good company. I can still have my ideology intact. Bending the praxis doesn't change that.

Veganism is a boycott without a campaign, relegated to a lifestyle. The word vegan is helpful for eating lunch, but as one of my other rotating taglines goes: "Animal liberation is not found on a menu."

You still want animal liberation. Why isn’t veganism the way to achieve it?

Yes I do believe in animal liberation and it's still a priority of my current activist work. It's why I'm leaving veganism behind in the first place, really. When the practice of being vegan is the goal, it becomes a slippery slope where vegan activists are tempted to employ spurious arguments. While we may see a short-term growth in vegans via questionable means, all it really does is create a bubble. Vegans who are duped by bad arguments will eventually figure that out and leave, making it that much harder to reach back out to them.

For the vegans who still hang in there, they are left scrambling on their own to find some validity. All they know is "go vegan". They don't have the tools themselves to make informed decisions or constructive forays into animal liberation. So what they do is improve upon what they've been given. They try to be more vegan. This shoves them into the arms of new age cults like raw food. Veganism becomes a rung on the ladder to climb upon a higher horse.

If veganism can’t achieve animal liberation, what can?

Animal liberation will achieve animal liberation. That is, we need compelling arguments to explain why animals deserve consideration. We should allow people to figure out what that means in their own lives. There are people working for animal liberation who eat animal products! This may seem irrational and counterintuitive, but that's a fancy monkey for you. Should their efforts be dismissed because they haven't personally reached a certain level of veganositude? Veganism has its part to play in the right context but its significance is being exaggerated.

You had an argument with Vegan Outreach co-founder and VeganHealth.org founder Jack Norris in the comments of your blog. Where do you disagree with Vegan Outreach's mission?

Vegan Outreach's mission is just that of their namesake, getting people to go vegan. Their mantra is: veganism is a "tool to reduce suffering"… but it's a really dumb tool. Veganism used that way is cargo cult activism. The only way veganism will achieve animal liberation is in spite of itself. I argued we should talk more about animal rights but he balked at the idea, saying the general public wasn't ready for that. That's a pretty patronizing and pessimistic attitude to apply to a method of advocacy.

Hey, but more power to them if that's what they wanna do. That doesn't mean I can't dissent. It took me years to absorb a critique of veganism I read on Vegan Represent that played a part in my new direction. Similarly I hope others are inspired to think critically about their own veganism and blaze new paths of change. We need a better foundation upon which to build a movement.

You once wrote to me that you thought I was helping with veganism with my blog Let Them Eat Meat. How so?

You are helping because you are spotlighting the weaknesses of veganism. You are putting real names and faces to apostates and exploring the nooks and crannies of this thing that's interpreted in so many different ways. It needs to be weeded and as an ex-vegan yourself you are familiar with your part of the story that you can leverage to dig up the dirt. You may be trying to justify your paleo diet or looking at the pieces for what went wrong with your veganism but ultimately I think you're helping to evolve veganism by pointing out the weak arguments. I'm just sick of hearing the same tired fallacious arguments on both sides. We need more insiders like you to speak out and say "veganism failed me and here's why".

I do something similar with Pythagorean Crank. When vegans deride me for the critique, I wonder if they really believe their own arguments. I mean, if I were to be proved wrong about something, then shouldn't I accept and adopt it? Shouldn't vegans want to hone their arguments? Wouldn't it be dishonest otherwise? When I criticize vegans, many rebuke me by saying "we're all not like that" or "STFU meanie!!!". Instead of arguing with me about that, though, how about speaking out, with me? How about recognizing that weakness of our supposed movement, and strive to change it? When I criticize non-vegans, though, in the same voice, all-a-sudden I'm one righteous dude. I'm not going to accept the tone argument. They can dish it, but they can't take it.

So yeah, I think your criticisms of veganism are constructive. Your writing isn't mean-spirited or malicious but you don't pull punches either. I may still be in catharsis mode on PCrank but I'm looking for my voice. Let Them Eat Meat is an inspiration for me… I hope you don't take that the wrong way. Heh.

How is your new message board, “Plant-Based People,” different than your previous one, “Vegan Represent”?

Plant-Based People ditched the word vegan because it was too restrictive and meaningless at the same time. Vegan Represent had a strict policy about being vegan. We even made you declare your "Vegan Story" at the door! PBP would be for everybody to talk in a constructive manner without the vague dogmatic qualifiers. It's an attempt to bypass the preconceptions and seek, explore and share ideas, solutions and experiences. Isn't that how rational people should commune?


http://www.carpevegan.com/?p=3336


Congrats to this man for coming back from the brink of his own "Insanity."
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:56 AM   #2002
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For the record I have no slaves, I can not recall torturing anyone in my lifetime, but the thought has crossed my mind a few times, taking the kids Xbox may count as child abuse to my kids but I don't per take in that either, and I think you got me on the last one I used to steal my brothers rattle all the time when he was a baby it gave me a headache, but that was 45 years ago at lest. So now that we are past all that let us go on, I would also think I am sane though sometimes my wife thinks I am insane for posting on here, but no anogoly needed.

I just ate 2 Pork Chops, Rice & Bean and a Salad my Mother in Law just made for me since I am visiting her I have no choice but to eat her food and you NEVER say no to an old Spanish Woman when it comes to food she made just for you. Oh and in the end you will grow fond of Rice & Beans for damn near every meal, if not now maybe in your next life.

Now back on track of the topic I maybe a meany to my kids pov, but I am not a mean person just because I eat meat, nor do I feel the need to be segregated into categories of other people doing shit I have never done nor care to do. I may even go as far to say some of the meat industry can be barbaric in nature, but for the most part that is not something I deal with. Oh and the key word there is SOME not all of the meat industry.

See from my POV I am an Omnivore since I eat both plants and animals, just because you say I can live off of just plants don't change the fact, nor do I care about my teeth or digestive track, because in my part of the world this works for me. Keep in mind a Panda can only live were there is bamboo, it would never survive in the desert with tumbleweeds and cactus. Also my life is to stay as self efficient as possible, that's why I hunt, fish and yes do my own gardening, to limit most of my food needs from stores. This is not perfect but I would bet I rely less on the commercial food world of crap than you do ?

BTW are you doing a garden this year ? As I recall you didn't have the means too last year ? Or was that someone else ?
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:24 AM   #2003
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#1 Cause of world hunger is Animal Agriculture. There is enough food to feed everyone. All over the world, hundreds of millions of people go hungry every day because much of the land and water is being used to grow feed grain for animals rather than food grain for people.

The wealthiest people on the planet in turn, are consuming grain-fed cattle, pigs, sheep, chickens, milk, cheese and eggs, while the poor go hungry.

A child starves to death EVERY 2 SECONDS. 40,000 people starve to death EVERY DAY while their governments ship grain to the U.S. to feed animals so that humans may satisfy their desire for flesh, dairy products and eggs.

790 million people in the world are chronically undernourished. About 27,000 children under 5 die of poverty and starvation every day.

The livestock animals in the United States consume five times as much grain as is consumed directly by the entire American population.The U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat every year.

We grow enough edible grain to provide 50% MORE than is required for every person in the world. Most of this edible grain is used to feed animals for meat, dairy and egg production. As a result, the price of grain has risen by hundreds of percent in recent years, pricing poor people out of the market for basic foods.

THE WORLD’S CATTLE ALONE CONSUME ENOUGH FOOD TO FEED 8.7 BILLION PEOPLE – MORE THAN THE ENTIRE HUMAN POPULATION.

A reduction in animal industries would lead to increases in
land available for native vegetation and sustainable forestry.

"Our collective choice of foods as they involve animals - raising and eating livestock and harvesting fish - is the single largest contributing sector for global depletion - the depletion of every one of the natural environs upon which our very existence rests.

Our combined demand for and consumption of eating animals are more responsible than any other factor for inefficient agricultural land use, depletion of our oceans, climate change, pollution, increased risk of the four most common diseases and five most common cancers found in the Western world, increased health-care costs and loss of productivity, depletion and use of fresh water, loss of biodiversity, and the prevalence of world hunger.

We are pumping massive and unsustainable amounts of resources into a machine that then involves the slaughtering of 1 to 3 trillion animals each year, to spew out unhealthy products that some want to call “food.” The relationship between our food choices and true sustainability has been well established, and our very survival will ultimately depend on bringing this precept to the forefront when engaging in any meaningful discussion of environmental concern."

~ Dr. Richard Oppenlander, Comfortably Unaware

"As the global population surges towards a predicted 9.1 billion people by 2050, western tastes for diets rich in meat and dairy products are unsustainable."

~ United Nations Environment Programmes
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:27 AM   #2004
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#1 Cause of world hunger is Animal Agriculture.
most of the meat we eat comes from the forests surrounding our farm.
and, btw...i just don't believe you.

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Old 06-06-2013, 04:56 AM   #2005
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@jondoeuk

First off not all cattle are grain fed, some of the best beef in the world comes from Argentina, guess what they eat ?

As I stated before the beef, sheep and horses eat what basically becomes tumbleweeds when they dry out and the wind picks up, and now and then they may get some alfalfa or grain. Also 90% of the Maize grow here is used for eating much of it is ground up for flour to make dough.

You could also say the Chinese Shark Fin fishing boat that just remove the fins and dump the rest of the shark into the water could be used to feed people that are hungry, yo me this is one of the biggest wastes of meat in the world.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:15 AM   #2006
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#1 Cause of world hunger is Animal Agriculture. There is enough food to feed everyone. All over the world, hundreds of millions of people go hungry every day because much of the land and water is being used to grow feed grain for animals rather than food grain for people.
There's as much stupidty and dishonesty packed into that one statement as passes through the United States Senate in a year.

I'm not going to waste too much of my time dealing with this BS, but will just make one point - The number 1 cause of hunger is poverty. It doesn't matter if there is excess beef, chicken, or grain in the US, the poor people in Africa cannot afford to buy it or transport it.

If grain is not going to be fed to cattle in Illinois today, it is either not going to be grown at all, or is going to be grown to be sold at first world prices. It is not going to be given to, or sold to, poor people in Africa or elsewhere because they cannot afford it.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:05 PM   #2007
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You rightly said that if we don't kill other animals, that won't stop other animals killing other animals. And I said that if I don't murder Lithuanians that won't stop other people murdering members of the TUC.

This means that if stoats don't kill elephants, that won't stop wasps killing alligators. And if I refrain from killing accountants, that won't stop bakers from killing people called Arbuthnot.



I don't wish to interfere with the lives of lions. But if you want to reduce the overall slaughter you should kill humans - meat eatings ones, of course. You would save the lives of hundreds of millions of innocent creatures each year. Milliards and milliards if you add the insects. Billions if you add the plants that are needed to produce meat.



We do not obey Nature. We would let handicapped babies die if we did because Nature has decreed them unfit to live. We should impregnate 12-year-old girls who have mature bodies because a lion wouldn't ask a young lioness for her birth certificate but would be attracted to a sexually mature one of any age. Perhaps Jimmy Savile was just obeying the laws of Nature. According to you lot, he was in the case of meat eating.



It is you lot who can't understand simple points.



An alcoholic who feels terrible without some alcohol knows their body too. So they must need alcohol. Once they abstain from it for a while they no longer need it. The human body does not need alcohol.



But all can live without meat.



In a vegan world there will be no need for artificial fertilisers or poisons spread on the crops because many fewer crops will be needed to feed humans directly. As there will be much less food grown there will be less need to transport it. Less land will be needed to grow food. Your religious perspective - the satanic, blood sacrifice one - is that meat is needed to placate your evil gods. Like the Aztecs believed they needed human sacrifices to keep their gods happy. Not much changes in the world view of the meat-eating demonic religion.



Nature does not say humans have to kill other animals. I know because Nature and I are on very good terms.



We don't need milk or eggs. Only babies need milk.



Everything I have written is a fact. Except the things which aren't.



Lions don't eat plants because they can't stand all the screaming that plants do when you eat them.



But a plant-based diet provides the best nutrition. Veganism is not a religion. I know because I am a bishop in the Vegan Church and I should know.



I was brought up eating meat. Families have done lots of stupid and dangerous things for thousands of year. Most people not so long ago thought vegetarianism was dangerous and the step to veganism seemed like suicide. I was a vegetarian for five years before I became a vegan because even I, who should have known better, was tricked by the lies that we needed animal products to be healthy. What chance do the majority of ignorant and weak willed people have? Your meat-centric religious creed tells you that you need meat and you believe it. Break free and think for yourself. I did.



I don't preach. I respond to the inane and sometimes insane ramblings of you meat eaters. You don't like your meat-eating religious beliefs quesitoned like all religious maniacs don't like having theirs questioned. You ask the same questions again and again. So I say the same things again and again. It might seem like preaching but it is simply answering questions. And I appreciate you asking the same questions again and again because it gives me more opportunity to educate those who want to know the truth but who may have missed the earlier questions. Thank you.



I was responding to your post (747), which was in response to my post where I was talking about the belief that plants feel pain. You said that they are sentient and had communicated with you. That seems like you were saying they do feel pain. But, if you don't believe they feel pain, you do believe they are sentient - whatever you mean by that - but you still eat them.

You don't seem to be able to move out of your dogma to at least recognise a point being put forward regardless of if you agree with it or not... Maybe it's due to your extreme diet.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:06 PM   #2008
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There's as much stupidty and dishonesty packed into that one statement as passes through the United States Senate in a year.

I'm not going to waste too much of my time dealing with this BS, but will just make one point - The number 1 cause of hunger is poverty. It doesn't matter if there is excess beef, chicken, or grain in the US, the poor people in Africa cannot afford to buy it or transport it.

If grain is not going to be fed to cattle in Illinois today, it is either not going to be grown at all, or is going to be grown to be sold at first world prices. It is not going to be given to, or sold to, poor people in Africa or elsewhere because they cannot afford it.
yup.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:03 PM   #2009
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:10 PM   #2010
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:08 AM   #2011
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This is exactly why I eat people.
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:21 AM   #2012
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Originally Posted by fishin43diqs View Post
There's as much stupidity and dishonesty packed into that one statement as passes through the United States Senate in a year.

I'm not going to waste too much of my time dealing with this BS, but will just make one point - The number 1 cause of hunger is poverty. It doesn't matter if there is excess beef, chicken, or grain in the US, the poor people in Africa cannot afford to buy it or transport it.

If grain is not going to be fed to cattle in Illinois today, it is either not going to be grown at all, or is going to be grown to be sold at first world prices. It is not going to be given to, or sold to, poor people in Africa or elsewhere because they cannot afford it.
We all know why they are poor. We (the people) could wipe out world hunger, do you know how much world wide goes on military spending or how much the Rothschilds are worth. They are destroying the 3rd world and soon the 1st and no one cares about either. The point is simple if instead of feeding cattle we feed each other on all the grain used then there would be far far less world hunger. As for them buying it or transportation then they are side issues
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:30 AM   #2013
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most of the meat we eat comes from the forests surrounding our farm.
and, btw...i just don't believe you.
There is more than enough food in the world to feed the entire human population. So why are more than a billion people still going hungry? Our meat-based diet is largely to blame. We funnel huge amounts of grain, soybeans, and corn through all the animals we use for food instead of feeding starving humans. If we stopped intensively breeding farmed animals and grew crops to feed humans instead, we could easily feed everyone on the planet with healthy and affordable vegetarian foods.

Raising animals for food is extremely inefficient. For every pound of food that farmed animals are fed, only a fraction of the calories are returned in the form of edible flesh. The rest of those calories are burned away raising the animal to slaughter weight or contributing to feathers, bone, skin, blood, and other parts of the animal that are not eaten by humans. This is why animals raised for food have to eat as many as 13 pounds of grain to create just 1 pound of edible flesh. The prestigious Worldwatch Institute states, "Meat consumption is an inefficient use of grain—the grain is used more efficiently when consumed directly by humans. Continued growth in meat output is dependent on feeding grain to animals, creating competition for grain between affluent meat-eaters and the world's poor."

As a meat-based diet spreads to developing countries, farmers who are trying to feed themselves are being driven off their land. Their efficient, plant-based agricultural model is being replaced with intensive livestock rearing, which also pollutes the air and water and renders the once-fertile land dead and barren. If this trend continues, the developing world will never be able to produce enough food to feed itself, and hunger will continue to plague hundreds of millions of people around the globe. Author George Monbiot, writing in the U.K.'s The Guardian, explains that there's only one solution: "It now seems plain that [a vegan diet] is the only ethical response to what is arguably the world's most urgent social justice issue."
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:26 PM   #2014
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This is exactly why I eat people.



The Vegans Will Hang You, If They Hear You Talk About Such Things.
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:44 PM   #2015
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The Vegans Will Hang You, If They Hear You Talk About Such Things.
"WAIT!! .... 'to serve man' ..... it's a COOKBOOK!!"
(trivia time ... ??? )

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Old 08-06-2013, 03:09 AM   #2016
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"WAIT!! .... 'to serve man' ..... it's a COOKBOOK!!"
(trivia time ... ??? )
What Is A Twilight Zone Episode Alex?


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Old 08-06-2013, 03:35 AM   #2017
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What Is A Twilight Zone Episode Alex?


too bad it was not 'double jeopardy', eh?
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:37 AM   #2018
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There is more than enough food in the world to feed the entire human population. So why are more than a billion people still going hungry? Our meat-based diet is largely to blame.
lol, nice try!

what utter tripe.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:51 AM   #2019
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lol, nice try!

what utter tripe.
You would have thought people would care about their own species.
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:20 PM   #2020
rbl_4nik8r
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: A Lifeboat with Psycho Birds
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondoeuk View Post
You would have thought people would care about their own species.
Sadly many of the species known as human don't think nor have any common sense so they starve.

As for feeding the people of the planet with veggies or grain let me ask you this: have you ever grown your own food and if so for how many people each year ?
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4.I am not that interested in seeking proof so to prove my point. doobyferkin
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