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Old 23-04-2013, 09:24 AM   #1021
sandwarrior
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Hmm... Maybe I should explain what I mean by conscious vs unconscious actions. If I do something while being conscious in my ordinary waking state, but I have a lack of or incorrect knowledge about what I'm doing and mess things up completely, then that's STILL conscious action!

By unconscious action I mean things we do without being consciously aware of doing it. Such as picking one's nose in public without being consciously aware of doing it, lol. Or a more classic example is sleepwalking. Or for example driving a car and when arriving at the destination not remembering doing the driving and it was done by subconscious habit of driving. Those are unconscious actions.
I think it goes deeper than this.

I think our normal awakened state is highly un-conscious.

You would probably say getting angry at another driver is done in a conscious state, I would say it is done in a highly un-conscious state.

What I mean is that if you were fully conscious, you would always be in control of your actions and thoughts, you would always be aware of your situation and your surroundings, you wouldn't be a slave to emotion and circumstance. It is the zen state that is spoken about, that hardly anybody attains, as holding onto true consciousness for any length of time is very difficult.

Try it yourself, count the seconds on a clock aqnd see how many you can count without becoming distracted, as soon as you become distracted you are unconscious, other stimulous has effected you, whether it be a thought, or a fly or whatever.

I see unconscious behaviour all of the time, everywhere I look. Just take time to stop and watch people, truly watch them, most a going about their buisiness in a totally un-conscious state, a state that you would probably call conscious.
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Old 23-04-2013, 09:29 AM   #1022
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Our conscious actions shape our future subconscious actions. For me its not relevant whether the action is conscious or subconscious but more relating to the events ie parenting,education, love,abuse,fears, previous experienxe that have led to the choice be it conscious or subconscious. Also you can still be held accountable for your actions rather than responsible so criminals can still go to prison or kids can still get sent to their room but I think the emphasis should be on how is this experience going to shape future actions. Robert anton Wilson talk about reality tunnels and how we can program our way of thinking, whilst I agree with this it doesn't mean that we necessarily have free will and actual choice either but its hard to say either wag tbh.

All I'm trying to say is that people on this thread seem to think that not being responsible for your actions might mean that someone should literally be able to get away with murder. Instead I ask what events or life history would lead some one to murder another and then think that they shouldn't be held accountable for the life they have taken, serious or consistent abuse, violence or neglect. Pmt is not an excuse for a woman to argue with her partner but becoming aware of the days that your hormones may be out of balance and taking steps to be less out of balance through nutrition or similar would be a sensible step to take. That said the person on the receiving end of an attack be it a vicious tongue, or a knife will probably find it easier to forgive if they can see that there were reasons for the persons behaviour and the person who attacked will find it easier to change if they can find the reasons that caused them to behave that way. Guilt is a major cause of stagnant behaviour and it can be really hard to move forward in a positive way if there is a big heap of guilt hanging round your neck. Recognising that we are not responsible for our past actions allows us to be the very best we can be without the past holding us back.
Yes, but if there is no free will, then you'll only find it easier to forgive someone if you're meant to, since all behaviour is destined. Which is exactly why I think there is free will. Like I said in my post, you'll be stuck on the lower levels until you're sick of it and then as you grow in understanding, so does your possibility of more free will and escaping this virtual game/reality.
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Old 23-04-2013, 09:34 AM   #1023
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I still think that those souls who are either sleeping or are at an animalistic level, aren't given any choice. But those who have been through this loop many times and experienced a lot, start to question things and start to slowly manpiulate their reality.

I think that's the ultimate goal. You are thrown here multiple times and are forced to go through hell, until one day something just goes "wait a second, now it's enough" and then you start the awakening process where you are no longer bound by matrix. Such as those sages like Jesus, Buddha and so on. One might say "no, they chose to be a sage", but I look at it from an angle of that stage being the goal of this virtual game. Because that's how games work...some are stuck at the lower levels until they reach experience and knowledge to go on the higher ones and after that you advance. That's the purpose of experience and knowledge...to get you to "wisdom" and out of this yucky matrix.
I think this kind of thinking is close to the truth.

I also think the soul is free from the constraints of this realm and only when it is incarnated it is under the rules, I also think it is these rules that give it the opportunity to evolve.

It just makes sense of everything IMO.
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Old 23-04-2013, 09:42 AM   #1024
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Yes, but if there is no free will, then you'll only find it easier to forgive someone if you're meant to, since all behaviour is destined. Which is exactly why I think there is free will. Like I said in my post, you'll be stuck on the lower levels until you're sick of it and then as you grow in understanding, so does your possibility of more free will and escaping this virtual game/reality.
I think the confusion lies in believing that "we" are important, as in the material shell, personality. The truth is, it isn't. Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust.

We have nothing to escape, in my opinion this is the nirvana that is spoken of, heaven truly is on earth, it is just a perception.

It is what the buddah realised, we have nothing to escape, we have all we will ever need.

It is the programming that causes us all of our grief and our personal hells.

See my Sig
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Old 23-04-2013, 10:20 AM   #1025
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I think it goes deeper than this.

I think our normal awakened state is highly un-conscious.
Yes, and I take the opportunity to plug my thread about states of consciousness: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242469

The idea in that thread has evolved a bit, but it basically remains the same, about how our consciousness today is like being in a separate and isolated bubble, and that there probably is a higher experience of consciousness outside the bubble.
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Old 23-04-2013, 10:23 AM   #1026
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Yes, and I take the opportunity to plug my thread about states of consciousness: http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=242469

The idea in that thread has evolved a bit, but it basically remains the same, about how our consciousness today is like being in a separate and isolated bubble, and that there probably is a higher experience of consciousness outside the bubble.
I will look later, Thank you.
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Old 23-04-2013, 10:28 AM   #1027
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Hmm... Maybe I should explain what I mean by conscious vs unconscious actions. If I do something while being conscious in my ordinary waking state, but I have a lack of or incorrect knowledge about what I'm doing and mess things up completely, then that's STILL conscious action!

By unconscious action I mean things we do without being consciously aware of doing it. Such as picking one's nose in public without being consciously aware of doing it, lol. Or a more classic example is sleepwalking. Or for example driving a car and when arriving at the destination not remembering doing the driving and it was done by subconscious habit of driving. Those are unconscious actions.
A conscious or unconscious action comes from previous learning a baby cries to get picked up or fed, if noone picks it up or feeds it it stops crying. It stops crying not because its needs are being met but because nobody is responding to the cries, let's say this is a pattern throughout the child's life as the child becomes an adult it may be incapable of asking for help from anyone and become withdrawn and insular incapable of unconditional love become the concept of receiving what you may need from another has just not happened for this person. Should we blame the person for being withdrawn or for ignoring anothers cry for help? I don't think so, instead we can say well I suppose you've been doing the best with the tools that you were given not all people are like that and actually you don't have to behave that way.

But even the realisation that you "have a choice" has a history to it, there are events and thought processes and decisions that lead to the realisation that you can change any given pattern of behaviour. This is why IMO it doesn't matter whether free-will is an illusion or not it is a tool that allows us to empower ourselves. The solidity of the mug I'm drinking my coffee out of is an illusion actually there is more space than solidity, but it doesn't matter because it still holds the coffee.
Is there only one way that my life could turn out? I don't know and neither does anyone else but I do know that how I live my life depends on my outlook on life and that a blame mentality isnae a happy one.
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Old 23-04-2013, 10:40 AM   #1028
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I think this kind of thinking is close to the truth.

I also think the soul is free from the constraints of this realm and only when it is incarnated it is under the rules, I also think it is these rules that give it the opportunity to evolve.

It just makes sense of everything IMO.
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I think the confusion lies in believing that "we" are important, as in the material shell, personality. The truth is, it isn't. Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust.

We have nothing to escape, in my opinion this is the nirvana that is spoken of, heaven truly is on earth, it is just a perception.

It is what the buddah realised, we have nothing to escape, we have all we will ever need.

It is the programming that causes us all of our grief and our personal hells.

See my Sig
Ah ok I see. So basically after being thrown around this hell hole, after some time we awaken but then not start escaping, but just accepting it as it is. There's nothing to escape. There is no spoon.

So we have free will in a way that we can, according to this newly found "wisdom", respond differently to certain situations, but we can't change the situations themselves. Right?
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Old 23-04-2013, 10:52 AM   #1029
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Yes, but if there is no free will, then you'll only find it easier to forgive someone if you're meant to, since all behaviour is destined. Which is exactly why I think there is free will. Like I said in my post, you'll be stuck on the lower levels until you're sick of it and then as you grow in understanding, so does your possibility of more free will and escaping this virtual game/reality.
Belief in free will is just another level of programming, it is a useful tool to enable change and personal development as is the belief that we are not responsible for our past actions. I took my kids horseriding the other day my younger child is 5 and wanted to play in the car while her sister was riding I said to her "you can sit in the car but don't peep the horn because you might frighten the horses" as soon as the words were out of my mouth I knew I had been an idiot to utter them and low and behold 5 minutes later she peeped the horn. Who is responsible? Certainly not her, she is too young and never peeps the horn in the car this was a first, why? Because I planted the idea in her head am I "responsible" whilst I blamed my self for what I said and will be more careful in the future I have to say no im not 100% responsible for her peeping the horn because my intentions were to prevent the said noise. Did I reprimand her for her action? Yes, because she needs to learn/ be programmed that mum says stuff for a good reason and that loud noises can startle horses and she needs to learn impulse control. So that even though I inadvertently planted that seed of beeping the horn she needs to learn to overcome the impulse to carry it out. But these are all learned behaviour that comes from observing the social relationships around you and those you have direct experience of.
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Old 23-04-2013, 10:59 AM   #1030
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A conscious or unconscious action comes from previous learning ...
Yes, but my point is that there is distinct difference between conscious and unconscious action.

To make a crude analogy, think of a lamp. The lamp is a lamp, yet there is a difference between the lamp being switched on or switched off. The lit lamp has additional capability/ability/quality than a lamp that is off.

My claim is that a conscious action cannot be reduced to an unconscious action. Conscious actions are of a higher order than unconscious actions. Even a million unconscious actions cannot replace a single conscious action.

To make another comparison: take the claim that the human body is just a collection of molecules. That's a true claim, but there is a distinct difference between a soup of molecules and a human body, even though both contain exactly the same molecules. The human body can do things the soup cannot.
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Old 23-04-2013, 11:33 AM   #1031
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Belief in free will is just another level of programming, it is a useful tool to enable change and personal development as is the belief that we are not responsible for our past actions. I took my kids horseriding the other day my younger child is 5 and wanted to play in the car while her sister was riding I said to her "you can sit in the car but don't peep the horn because you might frighten the horses" as soon as the words were out of my mouth I knew I had been an idiot to utter them and low and behold 5 minutes later she peeped the horn. Who is responsible? Certainly not her, she is too young and never peeps the horn in the car this was a first, why? Because I planted the idea in her head am I "responsible" whilst I blamed my self for what I said and will be more careful in the future I have to say no im not 100% responsible for her peeping the horn because my intentions were to prevent the said noise. Did I reprimand her for her action? Yes, because she needs to learn/ be programmed that mum says stuff for a good reason and that loud noises can startle horses and she needs to learn impulse control. So that even though I inadvertently planted that seed of beeping the horn she needs to learn to overcome the impulse to carry it out. But these are all learned behaviour that comes from observing the social relationships around you and those you have direct experience of.
Ok so we do agree. I say there's free will. You also say there's free will. Then I don't get what we're arguing over?
And of course it's a tool. It's a tool for those who are advanced enough to properly use it.
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Old 23-04-2013, 11:35 AM   #1032
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I don't believe in free will, and I haven't come across any academic that does believe in free will.

But I am curious, is it even possible for free will to exist as well as no free will? Does that even make sense???I don't think so, but... Maybe??? If so, where exactly do you draw distinction between what was an act of free will, and an act that wasn't free will?

Because, there can be absolutely no doubt that human behavior is shaped by causality. To deny that, would be moronic IMO. So, if you believe in free will, at best, you're saying that free will and no free will both exist.

Society right now is trying to create these distinctions between responsible or not, free will or not. A young kid isn't usually punished anywhere near as harshly as an adult. In the past, kids were treated just as harshly.

Then there's that spy from north korea who killed people. She was sentenced to death, but this was over ruled because a high court said she was brain washed.

To me it's all crap, there is no 'magic line' between free will and no free will.

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Old 23-04-2013, 11:46 AM   #1033
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Yes, but my point is that there is distinct difference between conscious and unconscious action.

To make a crude analogy, think of a lamp. The lamp is a lamp, yet there is a difference between the lamp being switched on or switched off. The lit lamp has additional capability/ability/quality than a lamp that is off.

My claim is that a conscious action cannot be reduced to an unconscious action. Conscious actions are of a higher order than unconscious actions. Even a million unconscious actions cannot replace a single conscious action.

To make another comparison: take the claim that the human body is just a collection of molecules. That's a true claim, but there is a distinct difference between a soup of molecules and a human body, even though both contain exactly the same molecules. The human body can do things the soup cannot.
What is a conscious action then if it is not governed by the subconscious I cannot think of a single conscious action that I have done today that has not been entwined in other events or thoughts even whilst trying to be fully aware and present all that happens is I become more aware of the subconscious processes that govern the conscious. I am more able to discern where the responses in my life come from and this enables alter the importance that I give to these thoughts but it is not free just because I am aware.

Maybe you can give an example of a conscious thought or action that has come about entirely independently, I can't, not for sure anyway.
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Old 23-04-2013, 11:52 AM   #1034
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Still puzzling are we? One day you'll figure it out. If you think you have free will, you do. If you don't think you have free will, you don't. Test it out. You'll see its the way it is. Has nothing to do with reality because that is up to you dumb ass! Its your dream!
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Old 23-04-2013, 12:07 PM   #1035
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Still puzzling are we? One day you'll figure it out. If you think you have free will, you do. If you don't think you have free will, you don't. Test it out. You'll see its the way it is. Has nothing to do with reality because that is up to you dumb ass! Its your dream!
Yup. I read such a statement in transurfing by vadim zeland. He states the same. That we create our own reality. But again, that's also only true for those souls who are at a certain level. Because you can't expect a mentally retarded individual to shape his reality in any way.
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Old 23-04-2013, 12:12 PM   #1036
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What is a conscious action then if it is not governed by the subconscious I cannot think of a single conscious action that I have done today that has not been entwined in other events or thoughts even whilst trying to be fully aware and present all that happens is I become more aware of the subconscious processes that govern the conscious. I am more able to discern where the responses in my life come from and this enables alter the importance that I give to these thoughts but it is not free just because I am aware.

Maybe you can give an example of a conscious thought or action that has come about entirely independently, I can't, not for sure anyway.
Think as conscious action as light. There needs to be some lamp, candle, laser or star etc to produce the light! So the light isn't independent. In a similar way conscious actions aren't independent.

The idea of there being a difference between conscious and unconscious action is fairly new to me. I came to think about such things after having learned about an interesting theory of consciousness. Here is one presentation of the theory:


Even mainstream scientists today don't understand why there needs to be consciousness! Seriously! So it's not an obvious thing. But with the realisation that conscious actions bring ADDITIONAL quality compared to mechanical or unconscious actions, it explains the need for consciousness.
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Old 23-04-2013, 12:37 PM   #1037
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I think we are responsible for our conscious actions but not for our unconscious actions. When we are aware of what we are doing in consciousness, then that is scientifically a different kind of action than an unconscious action. Because the conscious awareness of the actions brings an ADDITIONAL quality and aspect to the action.
I agree, we are responsible for our conscious actions, but disagree that we are not capable of controlling unconscious thought. It's all about discipline and learning to control the mind by directly interacting with it through meditation and accessing the many levels of awareness & consciousness, yet how many people or even scientists can be even bothered to meditate, let alone tame their unconscious mind. The answer is not many and you wonder why some people appear to have no control over their emotions or behavior and then make absurd claims that we are not responsible for our actions. Surely this is the height of ignorance, completely ignoring your true inner self, while at the same claiming that they understand how consciousness & unconsciousness operates.
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Old 23-04-2013, 12:44 PM   #1038
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I agree, we are responsible for our conscious actions, but disagree that we are not capable of controlling unconscious thought. It's all about discipline and learning to control the mind by directly interacting with it through meditation and accessing the many levels of awareness & consciousness, yet how many people or even scientists can be even bothered to meditate, let alone tame their unconscious mind. The answer is not many and you wonder why some people appear to have no control over their emotions or behavior and then make absurd claims that we are not responsible for our actions. Surely this is the height of ignorance, completely ignoring your true inner self, while at the same claiming that they understand how consciousness & unconsciousness operates.
I think of the subconscious as the mass of an iceberg below the surface and the conscious as the tip above water. So conscious actions need the foundation of the subconscious. And I agree that conscious activities can alter the subconscious (even though it's a massive task).
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Old 23-04-2013, 01:11 PM   #1039
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Still puzzling are we? One day you'll figure it out. If you think you have free will, you do. If you don't think you have free will, you don't. Test it out. You'll see its the way it is. Has nothing to do with reality because that is up to you dumb ass! Its your dream!
This thinking implies an inherent separation of everything which quite plainly isn't the case.

We don't have our own little bubbles of reality which we are creating for ourselves.

Go tell the baby suffering from cancer it has created its own reality.
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Old 23-04-2013, 01:33 PM   #1040
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This thinking implies an inherent separation of everything which quite plainly isn't the case.

We don't have our own little bubbles of reality which we are creating for ourselves.

Go tell the baby suffering from cancer it has created its own reality.
You cannot show any proof that the energy that is the baby did not create it's own heaven or hell. You speculate that you are correct is all but you make it look convincing. If the baby was Jimmy Saville in its immediate past life then indeed it would be fitting from the grand scheme of a bigger more vast single consciousness than our feeble minds can comprehend. All for nothing more than the experience, illusory as it may be. Tell the little boy getting butt slammed by one of Jimmy's friends its not their fault I don't have any control over my actions you are just a victim of cause and effect. See how far it goes. So we can both sling scenarios. We can both see that when believed both are absolutely real too so how can it be both? Ding ding ding!
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