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Old 17-07-2012, 06:31 PM   #61
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My thioughts are:-

TIME- I try to think of time as a human only concept. Its our way of organsing a series of events. From a human concept everything has a beginning and an end....

I think if you look at it on a much larger scale, evrything that ever is, was or will be is not actually happening in a linear order, its happened/happening/going to happen.

I know exactly what i mean and it makes sense in my head but its hard getting out in a way that makes sense!
I get what you are saying.

But imagine if you were a computer programmer and you knew all of the variables of a computer program.

You would know all of the possibilities that could ever happen in that program hence time wouldn't have to be linear to what was happening or could possibly happen.

The creator would have this luxury and if we are part of creation then maybe we have a sense of this.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:36 PM   #62
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Yes its fate and Gods will.

Maybe it has already happened in the mind of the creator but that is only because it can see all of the variables so can predict the future, in our dimension it hasn't happened as we are trapped in the illusion of linear time.

No free will as in we have no control over what happens due to the law of cause and effect, we cannot cahnge what was already going to happen.

Once started, reality in our dimension was only ever going to be one way and it is happening still and we are just along for the ride.
I have to disagree with you there There is no reason to think that anyone/god/source/creator has any control or knowledge of the future and that cause and effect is restricted to time lines, there is no reason to think that there is an all knowing entity. Life just is, we have no control or power at any dimensions but thats ok infact it's very freeing
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:40 PM   #63
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What im saying is that u dont believe we have a choice...past present and future are all one and the same in my opinion, we just have a specific view point of it all. Therefore it appears there are choices to be made etc when in fact there are none, it can only be one way because everything has already happened!
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:41 PM   #64
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I have to disagree with you there There is no reason to think that anyone/god/source/creator has any control or knowledge of the future and that cause and effect is restricted to time lines, there is no reason to think that there is an all knowing entity. Life just is, we have no control or power at any dimensions but thats ok infact it's very freeing
I agree, that it has no control.

But can you not imagine that the law maker is powerful enough to be able to see all of the variables and causes and effects, so in effect can predict the future?

To me, the fact that we are here says there is a creator and something was created but that is a different topic
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:45 PM   #65
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What im saying is that u dont believe we have a choice...past present and future are all one and the same in my opinion, we just have a specific view point of it all. Therefore it appears there are choices to be made etc when in fact there are none, it can only be one way because everything has already happened!
I agree with the principal of your argument.

Apart from the already happened bit, on this dimension at least.

Maybe in other dimensions it has already happened but it hasnt happened here, yet, at our perceptional level.
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:53 PM   #66
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Ah man..Brilliant!!!!!!! This is exactly what got me tazed in the institutions of 'higher learning'. Time? What is that? Like the dark road taken by most to the dead end of religion there is no such fucking thing...Like religion had its fucking basis on fiction so does Science...How many theories, by the brightest fucking minds are based on this fucking illusion. TIME. It is pure fantasy that even Einstein used to sell his bullshit...Space time!!!? mwahaha fucking ha! Time has absolutely no fucking foundation in reality...it can't be substantiated on any philosophical or scientific (mathematical) level...Time is science religion.... off the topic, but you struck a nerve..
Everything is a human concept.

Language dictates concepts, without concepts life would be simple.

But this is another topic.

Back to cause and effect, anybody got an argument against it?

Anybody bothered that it seems to disprove religion?

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Old 17-07-2012, 06:53 PM   #67
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I agree with the principal of your argument.

Apart from the already happened bit, on this dimension at least.

Maybe in other dimensions it has already happened but it hasnt happened here, yet, at our perceptional level.
Our perceptional level? The fundamentals of the point i was making is that iur perceptional level is what gives us a sense of control...get rid of our perception and the whole point of your thread makes sense....
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:58 PM   #68
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Our perceptional level? The fundamentals of the point i was making is that iur perceptional level is what gives us a sense of control...get rid of our perception and the whole point of your thread makes sense....
I agree, perception is paramount to understanding, the higher it gets the more you understand.

But to get rid of perception altogether? I am not sure where that would lead.

Interesting though
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Old 17-07-2012, 06:59 PM   #69
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You will have to expand on why it is grossly flawed.

This seems like an emotional response.

The thought is abhorrent yes?
The two sentences of my previous reply following "the idea of the original post is grossly flawed" are a pretty clear explanation of why it is. While it is concise it comletely sums it up. I find it just strange you omitted commenting on the reason I provided and reacted as if it were just that single sentence without further explanationof why it states what it does.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:00 PM   #70
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I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."
I agree.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:08 PM   #71
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The two sentences of my previous reply following "the idea of the original post is grossly flawed" are a pretty clear explanation of why it is. While it is concise it comletely sums it up. I find it just strange you omitted commenting on the reason I provided and reacted as if it were just that single sentence without further explanationof why it states what it does.
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The idea of the original post is grossly flawed. Taking into account cause and effect we don't choose and are not responsible for our feelings and emotional reactions. To act on them or not is a choice.
Ok, I think I get where you are coming from now.

Basically our emotions are not controllable but the way we react to them are?

I disagree.

If you have become emotional, you have already acted on the stimulous, its too late not to react, as you already have.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:13 PM   #72
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Nothing is a human concept...everything on a human level is manipulated tby arseholes for their own gain...cause and effect? I hurt child down the road for whatever reason..effect...child's family is devastated for the rest of their lives... do I feel? Am I responsible for my actions given the effect on the the child and the child's family and how the rest of society sees my action? A tiny growing few would try and see my action as so detached that I was influenced...the majority would see the need for my immediate destruction...but as in all human interaction the few hold sway for some weird profitable lefty reason.
I find your posts hard to understand.

In a way you are right, nothing is a human concept BUT everything we understand is a human concept.

In answer to your question, no you aren't responsible as abhorrent as this thought seems.

It isn't your fault, you had to hurt that child at that time, it couldn't have happened any other way and you deserve forgiveness and compassion.

Ring any bells??
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:20 PM   #73
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Conscious entities are responsible for our thoughts, feelings, and actions! I would have to say - that a consciously, "awake" person - is more responsible for their actions - than a human being closed off - to the awakened experience!
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:25 PM   #74
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WTF!? This is hard to understand...are you serious? Explain this to me...How the fuck aren't I responsible for this action???!! I'm really not with you...
Yes I undersatnd it is a difficult concept.

But in simple terms, the reason the person hurt the child was because he/she was hurting inside themselves and in that precise moment at that precise moment in the universe that situation couldn't have happened any other way.

The temptation or drive of the person doing the hurting at that time was greater than the urge not to do it, this is it at its simplest level.

To give you an idea imagine a time when you made a wrong decision at some point in your life and honestly ask yourself if you could, at that time chose any other option?

The answer, if honest will be no.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:28 PM   #75
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Conscious entities are responsible for our thoughts, feelings, and actions! I would have to say - that a consciously, "awake" person - is more responsible for their actions - than a human being closed off - to the awakened experience!
The astral entities are still subject to cause and effect.

But I agree in a way, the more conscious you are the more aware you are.

But the more conscious you are is directly propoetional to cause and effect, you will have been caused to become conscious by something.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:33 PM   #76
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I agree, I suspect the reason most all of us are on this board is because out consiousness was raised by outside events. Were not awake, we were awoken.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:35 PM   #77
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The astral entities are still subject to cause and effect.

But I agree in a way, the more conscious you are the more aware you are.

But the more conscious you are is directly propoetional to cause and effect, you will have been caused to become conscious by something.
The very entities that control us - have, "awakened" some of us! You have hit the nail on the head! The more conscious you are - the more aware you are! Aware enough to stay one step ahead!
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:36 PM   #78
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I agree, I suspect the reason most all of us are on this board is because out consiousness was raised by outside events. Were not awake, we were awoken.
Yes

It is far too easy to take credit for things outside of our control.

That is another thing this way of thinking gets rid of, Pride.
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:41 PM   #79
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So you and your forgiveness extends to a personal level...let's for arguments sake say I, feeling very shitty about my life and blaming external influences, break into...oh let's say your home and hold up your family with a gun and tie you and the fam up. And then I start to carve my dissatisfaction out on your begging and pleading offspring and mate, and end my non-choices with a bullet to the head while leaving you till last...and then a suddenly I find a conscience and release you amongst what's left of all you love, and hand you the gun and knife and ask for forgiveness...you would?

Please man...get real..
It would obviously be difficult but yes I Ultimately would and I can see the mechanism for it, can you?

You must have had a very bad life to behave in that way and I would have compassion for you.

And of course my grief for my family would be massive but it wouldnt be tainted with hatred for you.

You see it yet?
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Old 17-07-2012, 07:43 PM   #80
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Ok, I think I get where you are coming from now.

Basically our emotions are not controllable but the way we react to them are?

I disagree.

If you have become emotional, you have already acted on the stimulous, its too late not to react, as you already have.
An example of what I meant is, if you have become emotional, the emotion hardly ever controls you to the extent you can't overcome it and act ethically, not causing harm to innocent people.
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