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Old 15-06-2016, 10:10 PM   #81
jhar26
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In strictly boxing terms, definitely not.

Sugar Ray Robinson is #1 P4P of all time. Harry Greb is certainly in with a shout with his outstanding resume, but sadly there is no video footage of his bouts.
And there's Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep and Joe Louis. Many others worthy of consideration. In truth it's impossible to say of course. A recent great like Bernard Hopkins who is a complete bore to watch would have been hard to beat in any era because at his peak he was virtually impossible to hit.
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Old 15-06-2016, 10:20 PM   #82
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He was arguably the greatest heavyweight and top 5 pound for pound. I think that he actually lost two out of three fights against Norton and his points win over Shavers was debatable too. But the Ali aura usually helped him with the judges in close fights. And then there was that embarrassing loss against nobody Leon Spinks.

Why then do I consider Ali the greatest heavyweight despite all that? Well, all the fights I mention (except for the first two Norton fights of which he won one legitimately) in the above paragraph happened post the Frazier III fight when Ali was no longer Ali. If you count all Hollyfield's losses when he was an old guy or Tyson's when he was over the hill it would harm their legacy as well. Fact of the matter is that he beat fellow great Joe Frazier two out of three times in perhaps the most exciting heavyweight trilogy ever. That he defeated two heavyweight champions that at the time were considered unbeatable - Sonny Liston and George Foreman. That he was champ in perhaps the strongest era of heavyweight boxing ever. That he missed out on what would have been four of his best years because of the Vietnam thing. And although it can never be proven, I think that at his peak he would have beaten any other heavyweight champ in history.
100% agree with the Norton fights & the Shavers one is certainly debatable. There's also the Jimmy Young fight where most would argue that Young won. As for the Liston fights, they are certainly clouded. There's strong credibility to the rumours that Liston was much older than he claimed to be. If this is indeed the case, then it is entirely possible that his legs had gone by the time the Ali fights came around. There is also that famous story that he couldn't even jump rope in training prior to the second Ali fight. However, I'm certain that he took a dive for the 2nd fight & the fix was in. There is no way the Iron jawed Liston would fall to the floor from that 'phantom punch'. Skeptics would say he just gave up as he knew he couldn't beat Ali, but I don't buy into that. I certainly think his mafia ties contributed to the fix. If not the 1st fight, then certainly the 2nd. And then there's the story with 'funny tasting' water that Foreman received in the 'Rumble in the Jumble'. Although I've not paid much attention to that to be fair,

If I put all of this together, despite some great wins, I think Ali is a touch overrated. Although I certainly think he ranks higher in a list based on achievements rather than 'head to head'.
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Old 15-06-2016, 10:27 PM   #83
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And there's Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep and Joe Louis. Many others worthy of consideration. In truth it's impossible to say of course. A recent great like Bernard Hopkins who is a complete bore to watch would have been hard to beat in any era because at his peak he was virtually impossible to hit.
Indeed, indeed. Some great fighters you have named there. A fighter who has received a lot of stick in recent years is Roy Jones Jr. If he retired straight after the John Ruiz fight then I'm convinced many would have him possibly sitting top of their p4p 'head to head' list. Winning belts all the way from middleweight to Heavyweight, & the way he completely dominated two ATG's in the form of young James Toney & Bernard Hopkins was mesmerising. I've never seen a fighter with such athleticism, speed & reflexes. He was a marvel to watch in his prime. Going all the way up to heavyweight & then cutting muscle to make light heavy, totally killed him.

What a fighter, although I must confess, the evidence is strong that he may have been on PEDs the full time. This certainly dampens his legacy.
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Old 15-06-2016, 11:13 PM   #84
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100% agree with the Norton fights & the Shavers one is certainly debatable. There's also the Jimmy Young fight where most would argue that Young won. As for the Liston fights, they are certainly clouded. There's strong credibility to the rumours that Liston was much older than he claimed to be. If this is indeed the case, then it is entirely possible that his legs had gone by the time the Ali fights came around. There is also that famous story that he couldn't even jump rope in training prior to the second Ali fight. However, I'm certain that he took a dive for the 2nd fight & the fix was in. There is no way the Iron jawed Liston would fall to the floor from that 'phantom punch'. Skeptics would say he just gave up as he knew he couldn't beat Ali, but I don't buy into that. I certainly think his mafia ties contributed to the fix. If not the 1st fight, then certainly the 2nd. And then there's the story with 'funny tasting' water that Foreman received in the 'Rumble in the Jumble'. Although I've not paid much attention to that to be fair,

If I put all of this together, despite some great wins, I think Ali is a touch overrated. Although I certainly think he ranks higher in a list based on achievements rather than 'head to head'.
Yes, the Jimmy Young fight was one that had slipped my mind, but I agree. But Jimmy Young and Ernie Shavers were at least still within a margin that left room for debate. When it comes to the third Norton fight however the only possible conclusion can be that Norton was robbed.

I agree that the fix was in on Liston II. Even the first Liston fight was so weird that it raises some questions. But ok, I'm willing to give that one the benefit of the doubt. Not that I suspect Ali himself of anything fishy, but it's no secret that Liston was handled by the mob.

In the rumble of the jungle there's no doubt that Ali was helped by the fact that those ropes were much too loose. Foreman had in a matter of speaking to go stand in the second row of the crowd to get a proper hit as Ali was leaning back in those ropes. But fair is fair - Ali fought a tactical masterpiece in that one.
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Old 15-06-2016, 11:24 PM   #85
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Indeed, indeed. Some great fighters you have named there. A fighter who has received a lot of stick in recent years is Roy Jones Jr. If he retired straight after the John Ruiz fight then I'm convinced many would have him possibly sitting top of their p4p 'head to head' list. Winning belts all the way from middleweight to Heavyweight, & the way he completely dominated two ATG's in the form of young James Toney & Bernard Hopkins was mesmerising. I've never seen a fighter with such athleticism, speed & reflexes. He was a marvel to watch in his prime. Going all the way up to heavyweight & then cutting muscle to make light heavy, totally killed him.

What a fighter, although I must confess, the evidence is strong that he may have been on PEDs the full time. This certainly dampens his legacy.
Agreed about Roy Jones, although I have to take that heavyweight title with a grain of salt. Ruiz was a piss poor champ. More a paper belt champ in truth. He later on was also defeated very easily by James Toney, all be-it a doped Toney. But I doubt that there are many 'clean' top fighters out there. Anyway, whether Ruiz was a legitimate champion or not, it was still a great achievement for Jones to beat him. I agree that that should have been the point for Jones to retire. If he had he would now be on the shortlist of all time greats.
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Old 17-06-2016, 04:12 AM   #86
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In strictly boxing terms, definitely not.

Sugar Ray Robinson is #1 P4P of all time. Harry Greb is certainly in with a shout with his outstanding resume, but sadly there is no video footage of his bouts.
There is training footage of Greb available on the web. Greb is shown hitting the bag and sparring.

Ray Robinson was 128 - 1 -2 as a professional (he was either 85-0 or 87-0 as an amateur) when he retired at 32 to become an entertainer. He beat the man who beat him 5 times against the 1 loss. Ali said Ray Robinson was the best, and that Robinson was his idol. Robinson is untouchable at #1.

Ali during the years of 1965 to 1967 was arguably the best heavyweight of all time. I say the best. Here is evidence.... of the martial artistry of Ali. He made it look effortless, and he completely, single handedly changed the game. Maybe the best fighter of all time.

Sorry to those who are offended by boxing but this is part of who Ali was, and it does show a true martial artist at work.

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Old 17-06-2016, 05:14 AM   #87
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"I fought Sugar Ray so often, I almost got diabetes," LaMotta said. Robinson won five of his six bouts with LaMotta
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Old 18-06-2016, 02:46 PM   #88
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It is also an interesting fact that he was against mixing races. Interesting to hear from a black perspective.

Apparently mixing races to create coffee coloured people is part of the New World Order agenda. So is transgender people, gay, lesbians, bisexuals and transhumanism. Also world population control- the depopulation agenda. Also feminism and abortion. I guess it's all about control and bringing the whole world together for a false peace. Also the merging of the world religions together to create a pick 'n' mix New Age style mystical spirituality. World banks, money, food, water and energy supplies and health are part of this as well. As David Icke says "problem-reaction-solution" with regards to the false flag world events which are often violent and result in the bloodshed of innocent people.

I'm a white, British, born-again, Bible-believing Christian woman and I don't personally have a problem with interracial marriages. If I was to fall in love with a black African-Caribbean man or a Chinese man and wanted to marry them and have children with them what would be the problem with that, is that really against God? It's more important to me that the man I was to marry was a true Christian! Us Christians are a worldwide family we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Why should races not mix? We are all human beings after all and part of the human race. At the moment I can't see any races that are dying out.

Muhammad Ali was married 4 times and had seven daughters and two sons (9 children in total). Muhammad Ali obviously didn't have a problem with divorce. Do Muslims believe in polygamy? Some of Muhammad Ali's wives were quite light skinned anyway. God told us to be fruitful and multiply and Muhammad Ali did do that at least! I think it was very sad Muhammad Ali got turned off of the Christian faith although I can understand why he was. The boxer George Foreman actually became a Christian and a preacher. In the end Muhammad Ali was quite mystical and into magic the Sufi's (mystical Islam) and was also into Sunni Islam.

Muhammad Ali said he was "the greatest" for winning boxing matches against Sonny Liston, George Foreman and so on and being the heavyweight champion of the world three times. I don't personally like boxing though as it is a violent sport. I hope the "I'm the greatest" stuff was tongue in cheek or was just in regards to his boxing skills. Some say Muhammad Ali was actually a humble man. I saw an interview where Muhammad Ali said he didn't really believe he was the greatest and it was just for publicity why he said that. For me the greatest is Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus sometimes referred to himself as the Great "I Am" which refers to His deity.

I admired Muhammad Ali for how he coped with having Parkinson's disease for over 30 years and because he refused to fight in Vietnam. I was also pleased he severed his ties with the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X. I don't know if he was ever a member of the Black Panther Party? Civil and human rights issues are still important worldwide. Also the rights of our children are important and putting an end to all forms of child abuse and elite pedophile rings. Sadly there is still a modern day slave trade, exploitation of people and human trafficking. Also the rights of disabled people are important and the rights of people with long-term health conditions with no known cure.

Could this be the New World Order anthem? BLUE MINK - "Melting Pot" (RARE LIVE UK TV 1970) Ft Roger Cook & Madeline Bell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAWn4FO1MOw

This is very ironic Muhammad Ali has white looking gandsons see link: http://hpub.org/the-absurdity-and-fi...ite-grandsons/
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