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Old 10-04-2013, 10:15 AM   #101
reverendjim
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Annual Training 2012 -- Ft. Irwin, CA National Training Center. On RTO duty.

radar o'rielly!!
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Old 10-04-2013, 08:02 PM   #102
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that last paragraph explains why the heavy losses in vietnam compared to the level of good training they get now and the lower level of losses they sustain now. and thats another point the quality of that training. armies are much better trained now than they ever were. experince can be considered better than training...but only if that experience taught proper techniques. best to approach a task with a good grasp of what you are facing and have the benefit of the experience of those who went before you. it has a bearing on how people are going to act under stress. i think you'll find the incidents of people freaking out in combat (or any other stressful endeavor for that matter) and losing their wits is a lot lower than it ever was. better training. thats the reason. history is full of armies and other endeavors for that matter that demonstrate the folly of poor training by ignoring past experince or new developements as a training model. ww1 is a great example. the machine gun taught a few generals the lesson. its a shame that they at the start didn't say "they have machine guns. wonder what this means? lets check our training standards against this..." instead of "we dont care how they shot you up with machine guns...this is how we fight a war". same thing in ww2. ww1 generals bringing old methods. same in korea...and so on. they do things different now.

i'll put it this way. learning by experience is not a good training model. now, on the other hand if people experience something, then the experience is analyzed, broken down and put back together as a training experince, explaning as best possible whats to be expected and whats to be done, well, thats training. the main purpose of training is to allow people to deal with situations under stress and still get the job done without getting themselves or someone else hurt. if all my learning had been by raw experience i would probably not be here. i'm pretty sure one of those experiences would have been the end of it.

as for the crying yankees in the video...i am sure there's not very many of them in reality. but its been fun yanking your chain
I understand the point you are making and agree with training being important.

I just want to say this to illustrate my point on the importance of experience. and leave the matter where it lay.......

Some will tell you, a USMC 2nd Lieutenant is as dangerous as the enemy. The reason being, a 2nd Lieutenant is fresh out of officer training school. He is full of training and "0" experience, "book smart, but bush dumb" is the favorite cliche.

What makes the 2nd Lieutenant such a liability, is he commands enlisted troops who are, bush smart. It's a bad combination, especially if he is the arrogant type who feels it beneath him to listen to bush smart enlisted troops.

There are some things, training alone can never prepare you for. Here is a few examples,...... Never wear a white tee shirt under your camos. Never wear your officer insignia in the bush. Never have enlisted peoples salute you in the bush. Never give orders with hand gestures in the bush.

The reason is, enemy snipers had much rather shoot officers than lowly "grunts" like myself.

One such 2nd Lieutenant, thought he knew everything. We tried to tell him, officers who did stupid things like he was doing didn't have much of a life expectancy.

He would not listen. Everyone knew he was, "walking dead", everyone knew what was coming and everyone tried to stay away form him. Guys started making cash bets on how long he would last?


I don't remember who won the bet pool, or exactly how many days this 2nd Lieutenant made it to? But I do know, he wasn't there very long.


One bright, sunny morning found him standing on an elevated rice paddy dike, with his Lieutenant's bars shinning in the sunlight, barking and waving orders to his troops, who were trying their best to stay away from him.


A three round automatic burst from an AK-47 took him out. That enemy sniper is probably still grinning at the easy mark he saw as he aimed down the sights of his rifle?

....And that my friend is why training alone does not suffice....and if I were forced to choose between training or experience, I would choose experience.
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Old 11-04-2013, 02:04 AM   #103
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I am not as pro-US military as some of my posts might suggest. There are some things the US military did which I will never forgive.

The most memorable was Racism. I saw no racism what-so-ever, while in Vietnam. "Everyone bled the same color of blood" as the cliche goes. But, the very next day, and from then on, I was fed racism. Our first stop from Vietnam was the island of Guam. The first night we were there, a fight broke out in a night club on base. It involved Race. Some Armory guards were hit over the head and and weapons were stolen. It was a very big deal, back then.

If you sat down in the mess hall to eat, you were wise if you sat at a table with your own race. Racial tensions were everywhere.

I hold military intelligence direct responsible for racial tensions. The USMC had thousands returning Vietnam Vets it didn't know what to do with. It deliberately fed us racism to keep us divided, and at each other.

Military intelligence would actually plant people to stir up racial sh#t. Movies on Base seemed to always be of the racial type. Tension was everywhere.

It was obvious what they were doing, it was also cheap, and uncalled for. It's like, as long as they needed you for something, you were pretty much left alone. If they didn't need you, you were fu#ked with all the time.

Each had it's own dynamite. I don't know which was worse, being in the bush where I was "needed", or being in the rear where they did not need a "grunt" or infantryman?

__________________________________________________ _____________

My military occupation ("Grunt" or Infantry) was the most unsophisticated and expendable of them all. Not much training needed for the job I did.

The US military made it a point to mix the very intelligent and educated with the unsophisticated. In my squad alone, there were two college grads. IMO, this was done so that the intelligent and educated could not put their heads together and figure out how the US military was fu#king them.

In my short stay, I saw every bad thing there was to see in the USMC.

__________________________________________________ _____________

On a more personal level, while in Vietnam, Our military brass had an obsession about, "body count".

The "body count" had to be right. Where I was, if there were more dead Marines than "gooks", then the "body count" was wrong, and we had to return, and keep on returning until the "body count" was right.

Unfortunately, when the enemy could not be found, "enemies" were created! This meant, farmers, and villagers, took the place of the enemy. This made the "body count" right....and that's all that mattered. They were after all, just "gooks". Such is the politics of war!

Basically, in a round-about way, the USMC brass withheld basic luxury, such as a shower, a hot meal, or a good nights sleep, from any Platoon or company who's "body count" was not right.

Though, it maybe true the lowly "grunt" was the one who pulled the trigger, or made the call, the USMC brass were just as responsible as they pushed their own men to do such things.

If there is a God who is just, there is no way he could judge those "grunts" w/o judging the USMC bass also.

I am happy to report, my conscious is clean. I took no part in anything unethical. But, I do wonder about the well being of those who did?
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Old 12-04-2013, 08:49 PM   #104
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Show 'em if you got 'em.
A few more pics...

This one was Christmas day 1968. They brought us Ice cream. The location is about 8 miles so. of Danang, off Hwy #1, between Dodge City and Marble Mountian.

Present are, Gleason, Riley, Jenkins, Lincoln, Woody, I don't remember the names of the rest.



The kids name is, "Som". He was my, "laundry boy". The kids in the village did various tasks for us in exchange for food and smokes. (American cigarettes were a perfect barter item) The pic was taken in a small hamlet So. East of Danang.



Our rear administration office after taking a direct hit from a mortar attack In Feburary (I think) of 1969



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Old 13-04-2013, 12:16 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by arcyclus View Post
I am not as pro-US military as some of my posts might suggest. There are some things the US military did which I will never forgive.

The most memorable was Racism. I saw no racism what-so-ever, while in Vietnam. "Everyone bled the same color of blood" as the cliche goes. But, the very next day, and from then on, I was fed racism. Our first stop from Vietnam was the island of Guam. The first night we were there, a fight broke out in a night club on base. It involved Race. Some Armory guards were hit over the head and and weapons were stolen. It was a very big deal, back then.

If you sat down in the mess hall to eat, you were wise if you sat at a table with your own race. Racial tensions were everywhere.

I hold military intelligence direct responsible for racial tensions. The USMC had thousands returning Vietnam Vets it didn't know what to do with. It deliberately fed us racism to keep us divided, and at each other.

Military intelligence would actually plant people to stir up racial sh#t. Movies on Base seemed to always be of the racial type. Tension was everywhere.

It was obvious what they were doing, it was also cheap, and uncalled for. It's like, as long as they needed you for something, you were pretty much left alone. If they didn't need you, you were fu#ked with all the time.

Each had it's own dynamite. I don't know which was worse, being in the bush where I was "needed", or being in the rear where they did not need a "grunt" or infantryman?

__________________________________________________ _____________

My military occupation ("Grunt" or Infantry) was the most unsophisticated and expendable of them all. Not much training needed for the job I did.

The US military made it a point to mix the very intelligent and educated with the unsophisticated. In my squad alone, there were two college grads. IMO, this was done so that the intelligent and educated could not put their heads together and figure out how the US military was fu#king them.

In my short stay, I saw every bad thing there was to see in the USMC.

__________________________________________________ _____________

On a more personal level, while in Vietnam, Our military brass had an obsession about, "body count".

The "body count" had to be right. Where I was, if there were more dead Marines than "gooks", then the "body count" was wrong, and we had to return, and keep on returning until the "body count" was right.

Unfortunately, when the enemy could not be found, "enemies" were created! This meant, farmers, and villagers, took the place of the enemy. This made the "body count" right....and that's all that mattered. They were after all, just "gooks". Such is the politics of war!

Basically, in a round-about way, the USMC brass withheld basic luxury, such as a shower, a hot meal, or a good nights sleep, from any Platoon or company who's "body count" was not right.

Though, it maybe true the lowly "grunt" was the one who pulled the trigger, or made the call, the USMC brass were just as responsible as they pushed their own men to do such things.

If there is a God who is just, there is no way he could judge those "grunts" w/o judging the USMC bass also.

I am happy to report, my conscious is clean. I took no part in anything unethical. But, I do wonder about the well being of those who did?
maybe you should write a book about the experience...
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Old 13-04-2013, 08:46 PM   #106
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maybe you should write a book about the experience...
Thanks, but I decline.

The world doesn't need another book about that place. And, there are no, detailed, in depth, memories I care to keep alive.

I thank you for listening to my ramblings. It has been a dose of therapy for me.
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Old 16-04-2013, 06:08 AM   #107
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Arcyclus:

I would like to apologize to you. I'm sorry I doubted your experience. I'm sorry I called you a liar. Thank you for sharing the pictures.

I tried several times to write longer versions of this but kept getting interrupted, then the forum crashed, then I had a long (and very tiring) 3 days with the National Guard. The other stuff I was trying to say was, in short, irrelevant. The important part is above.

Learning that you are a Vietnam era veteran explains much of what you believe and how you state it. In my opinion, sometimes you are belligerently and arrogantly prejudiced (calling me a "liberal" who "hates america," etc) but I honestly feel you've earned the right to be a self-righteous jackass. I have every respect for anyone who fought in that war. I may disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it.

Can we shake hands and move forward?
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Old 16-04-2013, 07:08 AM   #108
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Arcyclus:

I would like to apologize to you. I'm sorry I doubted your experience. I'm sorry I called you a liar. Thank you for sharing the pictures.

I tried several times to write longer versions of this but kept getting interrupted, then the forum crashed, then I had a long (and very tiring) 3 days with the National Guard. The other stuff I was trying to say was, in short, irrelevant. The important part is above.

Learning that you are a Vietnam era veteran explains much of what you believe and how you state it. In my opinion, sometimes you are belligerently and arrogantly prejudiced (calling me a "liberal" who "hates america," etc) but I honestly feel you've earned the right to be a self-righteous jackass. I have every respect for anyone who fought in that war. I may disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it.

Can we shake hands and move forward?
I extend the same thanks to you which I have given reverendjim for listening to my ramblings.

I admit to my personality being a bit hard to take at times. But, overall, I think my posts have become progressively more civil when considering the whole?

Cyber-handshake accepted!
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Old 16-04-2013, 10:35 AM   #109
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Thanks, but I decline.

The world doesn't need another book about that place. And, there are no, detailed, in depth, memories I care to keep alive.

I thank you for listening to my ramblings. It has been a dose of therapy for me.
your probably right about the writing. after all, i dont think anyone has ever put into words an experience not had by the reader, and had it understood fully. its hard to understand fully when you haven't been in the shoes that were there. well, here's to bad experiences and to the fact that we are still here. thats something
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Old 17-04-2013, 05:34 PM   #110
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So you lead a "pretend" charge on an American encampment in a "pretend" war? Now you're pissed cuz the Americans didn't take you seriously? I will bet you were a bit of a novelty crawling around on the ground, hiding in bushes, wearing your face paint, all dressed up and nowhere to go?

Did you take your toy gun and your toy battle plans bank to your camp and cry like a baby cuz the Americans didn't want to play with you? You're damd lucky no one shot you for making all that noise while people were trying to sleep.

Maybe you would have better luck demonstrating your, "military superiority" on this video game?........

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/5333/invasion-norway
Oh good, some insults from the ignorant to brighten my day! Since Norway was at peace with the US and this took place during a military exercise, if we had started shooting them it might have created a diplomatic incident. But if we had they would all be dead because of incompetence and the team I led would have had zero casualties.
Only someone with no knowledge of military action and history can imagine for as much as a second that the US military is a superior "fighting force". It is a terrorist organization designed to "fight" and murder as many civilians as possible and is neither trained or equipped to fight an armed adversary.
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Old 17-04-2013, 08:25 PM   #111
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Oh good, some insults from the ignorant to brighten my day!
You'll find all that on post #23.

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if we had started shooting them it might have created a diplomatic incident.
Trust me on this....If you had fired live rounds at anyone armed, "a diplomatic incident" would be the least of your worries. All but a child would already know this.

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and the team I led would have had zero casualties.
LOL! Of course there will be, "no casualties in the team you lead".That's because you are leading a, pretend assault, on a pretend enemy,in a pretend war (See post #23). Hell, I got a 7 year old neighborhood kid who tells me the same thing when he plays war with the other neighborhood kids.


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Only someone with no knowledge of military action and history can imagine for as much as a second that the US military is a superior "fighting force".
Looks like you are the only one even mentioning the US military to me, as a superior fighting force.... so, yeah you are right! "Only someone with no knowledge of military action and history" would say that?
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