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Old 15-08-2012, 06:03 PM   #7101
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So by using your logic, any book with mathematical consistencies etc is from God ?
This logic is just for the people who think Quran is a man-made book. This book gives us the best ways to spend life and at the same time, its figures show the miracles when converted into the numbers.

And by the way, This is not my logic. It is the logic from God
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Old 15-08-2012, 06:07 PM   #7102
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So by using your logic, any book with mathematical consistencies etc is from God ?
And i don't say that books with mathematical consistencies are sent down by God. Surely you can prepare a book of calculus or any kind of maths but a book which gives the complete ways and rules to spend life and at the same time can also be calculated this way, this surely cannot be the work of human.
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Old 15-08-2012, 06:19 PM   #7103
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This logic is just for the people who think Quran is a man-made book.
Man did make the Quran.

Caliph Uthman collected and compiled it, Aisha reported a goat ate part of the Quran before they made it into a book.


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This book gives us the best ways to spend life
Each to their own, but personally I disagree.



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and at the same time, its figures show the miracles when converted into the numbers.
Similar to the anicient Kabbalah and Gemetria perhaps ?

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And by the way, This is not my logic. It is the logic from God
And he told you this personally ?
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Old 15-08-2012, 06:21 PM   #7104
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And i don't say that books with mathematical consistencies are sent down by God. Surely you can prepare a book of calculus or any kind of maths but a book which gives the complete ways and rules to spend life and at the same time can also be calculated this way, this surely cannot be the work of human.
Such as The Zohar and Liber Al Vel Legis ?
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Old 15-08-2012, 07:47 PM   #7105
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Man did make the Quran.

Caliph Uthman collected and compiled it, Aisha reported a goat ate part of the Quran before they made it into a book.




Each to their own, but personally I disagree.





Similar to the anicient Kabbalah and Gemetria perhaps ?



And he told you this personally ?

If a 3 years old child can remember the whole Quran, How can you blame hundreds of men missing the verses of Quran at the time of being given the shape of a book? Can you remember your Kabbalah or Bible in the way Muslims remember Quran when most of them can't even speak Arabic?
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Old 15-08-2012, 08:06 PM   #7106
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I've said nothing that isn't in recorded Islamic history.

Questions.

1. Did Uthman compile the Quran we have available to us today ?

2. Did Aisha report that a goat ate part of the Quran ?



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You people first go and produce a compatibility and then come and discuss things.
How about you bring Allah down from the sky with Muhammad on his winged horse with 72 virgins to my front door and introduce me to them and then you can expect me not to sit back and watch you propagate your retrograde religion on the David icke forum.

Deal ?

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Stop picking from the anti-islamic sites.
No anti-Islamic sites necessary, I'm using your religions history.


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You know people used to remember Quran at the time when it was being revealed. And when it was given the shape of paper, the verses in skins on animals and stones were collected and then the all the things were confirmed by the people who remembered whole of the Quran.
Revealed by a man to men. Thanks for confirming this fact.

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Ohhhh! But i Forgot!!! Ciko was dealing with the bunch of high class stupids and idiots in this thread and you are one of the bigger ones.
Ciko believes science has confirmed that Allah uses stars to attack genies. If you are on his same wavelength then I pity you.

Last edited by shanticat; 15-08-2012 at 08:45 PM. Reason: deleted quote
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Old 15-08-2012, 08:26 PM   #7107
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Originally Posted by unus mundus View Post
There's no 'bullshit propaganda', I've said nothing that isn't in recorded Islamic history.

Questions.

1. Did Uthman compile the Quran we have available to us today ?

2. Did Aisha report that a goat ate part of the Quran ?





How about you bring Allah down from the sky with Muhammad on his winged horse with 72 virgins to my front door and introduce me to them and then you can expect me not to sit back and watch you propagate your retrograde religion on the David icke forum.

Deal ?



No anti-Islamic sites necessary, I'm using your religions history.




Revealed by a man to men. Thanks for confirming this fact.



Ciko believes science has confirmed that Allah uses stars to attack genies. If you are on his same wavelength then I pity you.
Just think before you speak. I think i have provided you enough information that you can use to clear your mind but what about the shit in your head that cannot be cleared. You say you don't work on propaganda. Did you read whole of the Quran before objecting?

About Uthman, Yes he made gave Quran a paper book shape but What do you mean by compilation.

About Prophet(PBUH)'s wife Ayesha; well, your question is full of some childish stupidity and doesn't worth answering.

And about your further idiotic matters, I have a the final answer. Try reading Quranic chapter which is called "Al Kafiroon".
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Old 15-08-2012, 08:58 PM   #7108
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Just think before you speak. I think i have provided you enough information that you can use to clear your mind but what about the shit in your head that cannot be cleared. You say you don't work on propaganda. Did you read whole of the Quran before objecting?
You've provided your belief but nothing else.

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Originally Posted by islamtheonlysolution View Post
About Uthman, Yes he made gave Quran a paper book shape but What do you mean by compilation.

compilation  (ˌkɒmpɪˈleɪʃən)
 
— n
1. something collected or compiled, such as a list, report, etc
2. the act or process of collecting or compiling


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Originally Posted by islamtheonlysolution View Post
About Prophet(PBUH)'s wife Ayesha; well, your question is full of some childish stupidity and doesn't worth answering.
There's nothing childish or stupid about it, it's a fair question that you are refusing to answer because you know it's embarrassing.

***

Reported ‘Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
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Old 15-08-2012, 09:18 PM   #7109
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Originally Posted by unus mundus View Post
You've provided your belief but nothing else.




compilation  (ˌkɒmpɪˈleɪʃən)
 
— n
1. something collected or compiled, such as a list, report, etc
2. the act or process of collecting or compiling




There's nothing childish or stupid about it, it's a fair question that you are refusing to answer because you know it's embarrassing.

***

Reported ‘Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
Here is the Answer:


Quote:
Using a report from Sunan Ibn Majah the Christian missionaries allege that some verses of the Qur’an were lost as they were eaten by a goat. Let’s analyze the narration and try to find out the truth.


The narration goes as;

عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها

Reported ‘Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)

1- Authenticity of the narration:

Whenever we have a narration we ought to see whether it is authentic or not? The narration infact has some problems.

The particular chain given in Sunan Ibn Majah finds one of the narrators Muhammad bin Ishaq narrating it using the word عن (‘an) which is rather an ambiguous way of narration and renders the narration weak when used by a narrator known for practicing Tadlis [practice of subtly missing a link] and Muhammad Ibn Ishaq is indeed such a narrator. Thus through particular chain of narration in Sunan Ibn Majah the narration is weak and unauthentic due the above mentioned defect though it has other issues as well as mentioned in the lines to follow. This is clarified by Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Usmani in Takmala Fath Al-Mulhim 1/69 pub. Darul Ahya Al-Turath Al-Arabi, Beirut.

In Musnad Ahmad the same narration is given through the same chain but with an explicit way of narration i.e. it does not have the defect like the narration in Ibn Majah’s collection. But the narration is exposed to more criticism because many other narrators have related from ‘Aisha (RA) about the suckling/breastfeeding but no one has narrated the words found in this chain even though the narrators in those cases are more reliable and consistent than Muhammad bin Ishaq. And due to thefact of these words being narrated solely by him and in defiance to other much more reliable narrators, scholars have questioned its authenticity. Shaykh Shu’aib Arnaud has classified it as Da’if in his classification of Musnad Ahmad. See Musnad Ahmad 6/269 Hadith 26359.

2- The narration no way questions Qur’an infallibility:

Even if the narration were authentic it no way questions the claim of Qur’an being totally preserved and here are my evidences for this;

1- One of the two allegedly lost verses as per this narration was about stoning i.e. punishment of married adulterers. But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part. Following narrations testify to this;

a-It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: ‘I heard the Messenger of Allah say, ‘When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)’, (hearing this) Amr said,

فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك


‘When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.’ (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)

b- About this ‘verse’ Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:

يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال فأتيته فذكرته قال فذكر آية الرجم قال فقال يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال لا استطيع ذاك

“‘O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.’ He (the Prophet) said, ‘I can’t do this.’” (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)

Had it meant to be a part of the Qur’an why would Holy Prophet (PBUH) dislike its being written and who could stop him from doing it?

2- The second allegedly lost verse was about suckling of an adult ten times but in this case too we have other narrations which categorically say that the verse was abrogated. And interestingly those narrations come through ‘Aisha (RA) only. In Sahih Muslim we read;

عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّهَا قَالَتْ كَانَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ عَشْرُ رَضَعَاتٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ يُحَرِّمْنَ ثُمَّ نُسِخْنَ بِخَمْسٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَهُنَّ فِيمَا يُقْرَأُ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ

‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur’an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings … (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)

This narration explicitly says that verse about ten sucklings was abrogated. For further queries about this issue and the narration from Sahih Muslim see THIS.

Having known that neither of them was meant to be part of the Qur’an; even if we accept the narration in question we will have to say that perhaps ‘Aisha (RA) had kept them with her as a historical record and nothing more. Thus even if the goat actually ate them up no part of the Qur’an was lost.

Moreover ‘Aisha (RA) lived through the whole period of Qur’an compilation during the time of Abu Bakr (RA) and Usman (RA) while she was unanimously considered an authority for herself so if she had any thought about some verses missing she would have brought it to attention of other Companions of the Prophet (PBUH). Infact we have evidence of Usman (RA) making special endeavor of consulting ‘Aisha (RA) and her records for verifying the official compilation. See Ibn Shabba’s Tarikh Al-Madina p.997. Despite all this she never raised the issue supporting our conclusion that no part of the Qur’an was lost even if the narration is considered reliable.

Indeed Allah Knows the best!
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Old 15-08-2012, 09:30 PM   #7110
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Here is the Answer:
It's a answer, that doesn't mean it's right, correct, true, honest or the answer.

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Old 15-08-2012, 09:39 PM   #7111
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It's a answer, that doesn't mean it's right, correct, true, honest or the answer.

You are objecting and it doesnt mean your objections is true!!!!
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Old 16-08-2012, 08:30 AM   #7112
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Well I think my whole discussion is concerned with the point that there are the huge differences between hypocrites and sahaba and this is what i told you many times that hypocrites can be near to sahaba in no way. One who insults sahaba can never be a muslim and one who confuses righteous sahaba to be hypocrites is also very far away from the path of Islam. Am i right? surely I am.
how do you determine who is a sahaba and who is a hypocrite?
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Old 16-08-2012, 09:05 AM   #7113
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I am closing this thread as I think its run its course. We get reports every day from posters who are bickering with each other on this thread and as such many posts have to be deleted and users reminded to stay within the guidelines of posting.

Many of the people breaking the rules and reporting posts within this sub-forum are people who are here to promote their religion.

It has become apparent to myself and the other moderators that the religion forum has slowly attracted those with a religious agenda to promote to others. It has become the opposite of what it was created for which is absolutely crazy.

This is not what this forum is about. The religion forum was set-up in order for people to discuss, debate and expose the true nature of religions. David's view has always been that all religions exist in order to divide and rule. The intention on this forum is to expose religions for what they really are and not to promote them.

Going forward we will no longer tolerate posts or posters with any kind of religious agenda. People on here will need to get used to this. If you are a religious person you are welcome to discuss and debate with the rest of us. However, this forum is not for promotion or recruitment to your religion. Any threads or posts which veer towards this will be deleted from now on.

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