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Old 20-08-2011, 02:12 PM   #41
vegan_on_the_land
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Originally Posted by plam View Post
Vegan diet is DANGEROUS for young children and teenagers. It deprives them from a healthy start in life. If a grown up needs to fight a certain disease or body weight with a vegan diet then it's fine. No objections.

But there's no good reason for a healthy person to be vegan and deprive himself from valuable food sources. The ethical reasons are sheer hypocrisy and a sign of someone who is removed from the way of nature.

Last but not least, a balanced healthy diet makes you stronger and looking better!
How is a vegan diet dangerous? Show me the evidence. Just because some ignorant parents damage their baby by feeding them soya milk and ginger biscuits does not mean a vegan diet is unhealthy. Show me the evidence that a well balanced vegan diet is unhealthy.

How are the ethical reasons hypocritical? We humans are removed from much of the way of Nature. If we were truly slaves to Nature we would all try our best to enslave other humans or kill anyone who tried to take what we have or what we want. The typical lion is a slave to Nature and will kill other lions who challenge him and who don't back down, and will kill the cubs of any female he wants to mate with. Do you want us to return to being truly under the control of Nature? We have spent centuries slowly becoming more civilised. We might manage it one day in the distant future.

I agree that a balanced healthy diet makes us stonger and better looking. A vegan diet fits the bill nicely.
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Old 20-08-2011, 02:14 PM   #42
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Total unfounded bs, once again I will post this documentary that proves you are wrong.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...50907493609078

I know you probably don't feel like watching it but if you did you would see that it totally destroys this ridiculous theory of yours. If raising children on a vegan diet is so dangerous then how is this family able to raise 4 extremely healthy, smart and creative children? They don't even make any special effort to make sure all their nutritional needs are met. They just eat a variety of fruits and veggies and their bloodwork came out nearly perfect with no deficiencies. How can this be possible if what you say is correct?
Thank You for video link, I am going to watch it right now
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Old 20-08-2011, 02:28 PM   #43
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how about a poll?
I bet there are more vegans on here than meat eaters
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Old 20-08-2011, 02:56 PM   #44
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how about a poll?
I bet there are more vegans on here than meat eaters
What will that prove? I'd be interested more in peoples reasoning behind their choice of diet.
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Old 20-08-2011, 03:11 PM   #45
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Veganism does absolutely nothing to help with what it supposedly is against... factory farming.

Vegan on the land preaches this bullshit "we're free because we eat only plants". It's such a hot load.

If you buy food from a store, you are supporting factory farming 99.9999% of the time.

The largest percentage of the world's soybeans comes from deforested jungle in Brazil where it is grown by indentured servants with guns at their backs. All that precious tropical fruit that gets imported to the US and Europe way way way less than it's actual value is like the name of one rock album "Fresh Fruit for Rotten Vegetables".

Soy, corn, rice and wheat are all subsidized by the government. The "staff of life" is not only incredibly unhealthy for you, but for the planet. Humans are covering the land with monoculture the world over, it is the destruction of nature.

The reason why there is global warming is because of grain/plow agriculture.

Now the key here is that while y'all are supporting wanton destruction, Organic meat eaters like me and others here are supporting farms that do not destroy nature, they encourage nature to thrive. We can utilize animals to bring back the grasslands, end the spread of deserts and rejuvenate the forest.

We need to decide whether we want to live in harmony with nature or to die because we refused in order to live a more "moral" existence of agriculture through chemicals.

Vegan on the land says that we can make a vegan permaculture world...but this isn't really substantiated at all. It's just an idea and one with very basic flaws. What happens when we grow all this food and we aren't killing animals? The wildlife is going to easily take over and eat ALL of the food.

Anyways, I will share with you a video that explains how great cows can be for the planet.

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Old 20-08-2011, 03:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by al209 View Post
What will that prove? I'd be interested more in peoples reasoning behind their choice of diet.
I chose to eat meat and dairy because I have woken up and decided to put my own destiny in my hands. I will not be a slave or a toy who relies on an NWO father figure to tell me how to live and to nurse me on it's putrid filth of a breast that is factory farming.

I chose to eat meat and dairy because I can grow it myself, while healing the land and doing something that I love to do.

I chose to eat meat and dairy because it is healing me from the chronic illnesses I have suffered throughout my life, my depression, anxiety and inability to gain muscle mass.

I want to raise children some day, I cannot do that to the full potential, support my mate properly or nourish the children properly without animal products.

It's also monetary. I just don't make the kind of money that would be needed to feed me a vegan diet that wouldn't be half as healthy as the diet that I am eating.

If I wanted to be vegan, it would only make sense if I moved to Florida or further south where coconuts and avacados grow.

Human beings have been evolving with their prey species for probably millions of years. Instinct makes us love them for they give to us so much and the allow us to live our lives in a climate that we would die without them.

I do not think that veganism is sustainable for health over the course of multiple generations. See Potenger's Cat's. No there is no truly founded evidence to support my belief, but there also isn't any founded evidence against that belief either. There are no vegan societies. There is no evidence that veganism is truly healthy. It is all conjecture. Someone posted a video of a vegan family... kids look scrawny, weak and almost emaciated. Just cause a kid seems healthy and happy doesn't mean he/she's brain and organs are developing properly or to the best of their ability.

Regardless of whether or not it is possible to be sustain a healthy vegan population or not, it is apparent to most that animal products improve the quality of our lives. I provide a pleasant quality of life for my animals. My animals love me, they need me, they would DIE if I did not continue to take care of them, they would die if I released them into the wild.

I love myself and my animals a lot more than I love any vegan.

I do think there is a vegan conspiracy. There is a big push for people to eat less animal fat, less animals. There is no good reason why we should. What we should be doing is doing what we have been doing differently. Raising our animals in a sustainable manner and eating our animals in a healthy manner.

Vegan fuxzors...
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Old 20-08-2011, 03:38 PM   #47
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Finally, one last point. I have to agree with Plam that veganism IS dangerous for children.

I was not vegan, but nearly vegan, for 6 years. All the animal product I ate was cheese now and then. We ate mostly rice, beans, vegetables, fruit. I didn't eat much junk food at all, perhaps a piece of cake now and then, sometimes me and my mom made chimichangas or egg rolls. We really did try the best we knew to eat healthy, for 6 years.

My health drastically declined. I was anemic. I had leaky gut syndrome. I had arthritis. I had little energy. I was depressed. I was thinking about suicide.

I'm not saying that there is no way I could have been healthy on a vegetarian or vegan diet, I am saying that me and my mom legitimately tried, we really did try to be healthy and not eat processed junk. It wasn't working. It could have killed me if it had continued. It could have nipped me in the bud and prevented me from ever being a successful person.

I bet I ate better than Vegan on the Land does. Perhaps this veganism shit works halfway decent for some folks. Not me. Not any of the vegans I know either to be honest. I know that animal nutrition could improve the quality of their lives drastically

I Know it. I have experienced it. I saw a vegan household start eating cheese they garbaged out of the dumpster. I saw their health, the color in their face, their moods and friendliness all improve.

Perhaps there is some perfect vegan diet out there, but for the majority of humans they just can't deal with the nuances, it is detrimental to their lives. It is unsafe to try to raise your children vegan.

Lest they get infections and have to go on meds and have what happened to me or something like it... 10 years of a tumor on my vocal cords that had to be removed every year with a laser... all could have been prevented had my parents raised me on raw milk.

Peace y'all

-paco ownage!
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Old 20-08-2011, 10:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
Veganism does absolutely nothing to help with what it supposedly is against... factory farming.
If you buy food from a store, you are supporting factory farming 99.9999% of the time.
Factory farming is the farming of farm animals. What does that have to do with vegansim? How does buying food from a shop support factory farming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
The largest percentage of the world's soybeans comes from deforested jungle in Brazil where it is grown by indentured servants with guns at their backs. All that precious tropical fruit that gets imported to the US and Europe way way way less than it's actual value is like the name of one rock album "Fresh Fruit for Rotten Vegetables".

Soy, corn, rice and wheat are all subsidized by the government. The "staff of life" is not only incredibly unhealthy for you, but for the planet. Humans are covering the land with monoculture the world over, it is the destruction of nature.

The reason why there is global warming is because of grain/plow agriculture.
Most of the soyabean crop goes towards feeding farm animals. The Amazon jungle is being cut down not only to make way for soyabeans but also to create short-lived grazing areas for cattle. The cattle eat the grass and then more forest has to be cut down to create more short-lived grazing areas.

Meat is subsidised by the taxpayer. All farming is. With a vegan-organic farming system there would be great diversity in crops. The monocultures of corn has nothing to do with veganism. One of the causes of man-exacerbated climate change is all the farm animals with their carbon dioxide and methane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
Now the key here is that while y'all are supporting wanton destruction, Organic meat eaters like me and others here are supporting farms that do not destroy nature, they encourage nature to thrive. We can utilize animals to bring back the grasslands, end the spread of deserts and rejuvenate the forest.

Vegan on the land says that we can make a vegan permaculture world...but this isn't really substantiated at all. It's just an idea and one with very basic flaws. What happens when we grow all this food and we aren't killing animals? The wildlife is going to easily take over and eat ALL of the food.
Most of the wanton destruction caused by farming is due to meat, egg and dairy production. You advocate 'grass-fed beef' but, as I have said many times, there is not enough land to grow grass for all the farm animals that would be needed to feed every human with meat. Not from grass-fed, nor from crop-fed farm animals. Vegan-organic farming is the way to grow enough food for everyone and to create rich habitats for wildlife. Vegan-organic farmers encourage wildlife to help with the pollination of the crops and the management of insects that would eat the crops.

Click on the right side of the page that comes up, where it says Video Feature. It says: 'Farmer Iain Tolhurst demonstrates how people can be fed with food gown Stockfree. Organically, Ethically and Sustainably.'
http://www.veganorganic.net/ You might have to double-click it. I can't get the full screen version but I have done so before. Yes, I can, I right clicked on the image and then chose 'full screen' from the drop down menu. To get out of that again, right click and choose 'exit full screen' or some such wording. It must be great working on a farm like that. I wish I had some land.

Vegan-organic agriculture is not just an idea. It is being put to use. We won't be breeding sheep, cattle, pigs and chickens so there will be none to kill. There will, however, be lots of land left over for wild sheep, cattle, pigs and chickens. And lions, tarantulas, elephants, wrens, bisons, and yetis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
We need to decide whether we want to live in harmony with nature or to die because we refused in order to live a more "moral" existence of agriculture through chemicals.
Vegan-organic and permaculture are the ultimate methods for living in harmony with Nature and also allow us to live a more moral life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
It's also monetary. I just don't make the kind of money that would be needed to feed me a vegan diet that wouldn't be half as healthy as the diet that I am eating.
A vegan diet is not expensive. It seems to be part of the IllMeatinati conspiracy that a vegan diet is expensive. It mainly consists of fruit, vegetables and cereals. Nothing expensive about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
Human beings have been evolving with their prey species for probably millions of years. Instinct makes us love them for they give to us so much and the allow us to live our lives in a climate that we would die without them.
Muggers love their victims, too, because their victims give them so much. Our victims do not give us anything. We take it all. And then take their lives. It is true that eating meat has helped us to live in certain climates. That is because we belong in the tropics. In the trees of the tropics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
I do not think that veganism is sustainable for health over the course of multiple generations. See Potenger's Cat's. No there is no truly founded evidence to support my belief, but there also isn't any founded evidence against that belief either. There are no vegan societies. There is no evidence that veganism is truly healthy. It is all conjecture. Someone posted a video of a vegan family... kids look scrawny, weak and almost emaciated. Just cause a kid seems healthy and happy doesn't mean he/she's brain and organs are developing properly or to the best of their ability.
Why should we see Potenger's Cats? We are not cats. Cats are obligate carnivores. We are not. Nor are we obligate omnivores. You have no evidence that veganism is unsustainable over many generations.

There are no vegan societies because it was not easy being vegan in most of the world. We lead lives very different to how we evolved. It is easy being vegan in most places where humans live now, though.

There are many healthy-looking vegan children. I have seen scrawny, weak-looking children from families that eat meat. The evidence for how healthy veganism is can be seen in all the healthy vegans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
Regardless of whether or not it is possible to be sustain a healthy vegan population or not, it is apparent to most that animal products improve the quality of our lives.
It is certainly easier to live as a non-vegan. The products from animals may or may not improve the quality of life but, if they do, that is only because the world is run on cruelty towards other animals. They are used in so many different ways that it takes time to find out and eliminate as much of their products as possible. Most latex gloves contain them. Most condoms contain them. Even tyres can contain them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
I provide a pleasant quality of life for my animals. My animals love me, they need me, they would DIE if I did not continue to take care of them, they would die if I released them into the wild.
You are clearly confusing 'love' with 'dependence'. They would only die because people like you have bred them to be dependent or have removed them from where they can be independent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
My health drastically declined. I was anemic. I had leaky gut syndrome. I had arthritis. I had little energy. I was depressed. I was thinking about suicide.
You can't blame that on a vegan diet - even an almost vegan diet like the one you had. If you were anaemic it probably would have been because you weren't getting enough B12. Some small studies have found vegetarian and vegan diets to be helpful in cases of rheumatoid arthritis but they were probably too small to be conclusive.

As for leaky gut syndrome:
Quote:
Clinics (Sao Paulo). 2010 Jun;65(6):635-43.
Possible links between intestinal permeablity and food processing: A potential therapeutic niche for glutamine.

Abstract
Increased intestinal permeability is a likely cause of various pathologies, such as allergies and metabolic or even cardiovascular disturbances. Intestinal permeability is found in many severe clinical situations and in common disorders such as irritable bowel syndrome. In these conditions, substances that are normally unable to cross the epithelial barrier gain access to the systemic circulation. To illustrate the potential harmfulness of leaky gut, we present an argument based on examples linked to protein or lipid glycation induced by modern food processing. Increased intestinal permeability should be largely improved by dietary addition of compounds, such as glutamine or curcumin, which both have the mechanistic potential to inhibit the inflammation and oxidative stress linked to tight junction opening. This brief review aims to increase physician awareness of this common, albeit largely unrecognized, pathology, which may be easily prevented or improved by means of simple nutritional changes.

Glycation in food
Comparison of different cooking methods has shown that identical substances can behave very differently. For example, strongly roasting typically increases allergenicity of peanuts.34 In addition, carboxymethyllysine content is significantly higher in infant formulas than in breast milk.35–37 High-fat meals have the highest AGE content, more than meat and carbohydrate-rich meals. This also depends on the cooking method because broiling and frying generates more glycated compounds than roasting, and the least amount of glycated compounds is generated by boiling.38 Thus, the safest cooking method appears to be slow boiling at reasonable temperatures.

Approximately one-third of IBD patients present with fructose intolerance.67 In these subjects at least, fructose may have harmful effects. Fructose is lipogenic and can provoke non-alcoholic steatotic hepatitis (NASH).68 Whether normal levels of dietary fructose intake increase glycation in healthy subjects remains a matter of debate.

Glutamine is presently the best known compound for reducing IP (Intestinal Permeability), and nutritional depletion is known to result in increased IP. In addition, glutamine supplementation has been shown to increase intestinal barrier function in malnourished children.
Most of the studies seem to have been done in non-human animals - which is stupid - but some were done in humans.

According to wickedpaedia, glutamine can be found in wheat, cabbage, beets, beans, spinach, and parsley. Small amounts of free L-glutamine are also found in vegetable juices and foods, such as tofu, as well as in the products of farm animal abuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
Perhaps there is some perfect vegan diet out there, but for the majority of humans they just can't deal with the nuances, it is detrimental to their lives. It is unsafe to try to raise your children vegan.
More unfounded speculation. The majority of people who have a proper vegan diet thrive on it. Some people who don't probably either don't know what they are doing and try to exist on lettuce or they have too much of some food to which they have an allergy or intolerance - such as glycated products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pacoquerak View Post
Lest they get infections and have to go on meds and have what happened to me or something like it... 10 years of a tumor on my vocal cords that had to be removed every year with a laser... all could have been prevented had my parents raised me on raw milk.
More speculation.
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Old 21-08-2011, 01:06 AM   #49
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"Clean meat" is neither widely available, nor affordable for 95% of US consumers, most of whom are heavily in debt, face dwindling job prospects, and have been facing a consistently lowered standard of living over time.

This is all mental masturbation; practically speaking, any rational consumer in the here and now, will buy less expensive "meat" especially if rbgh/antibiotic free stuff is 2X or 3X as much. Assuming it is easily found, which it is not.
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Old 21-08-2011, 01:41 AM   #50
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If a small percentage of the people are vegan (what was it, .01% of the world?) then it's not much of a conspiracy. You are saying TBTB are somehow benefiting from .01% of the population from being vegan?

If everyone was vegan as part of the 'conspiracy', then Big Agra monocrop corporations would go out of business because no one would need animal feed and everyone would have their own sustainable gardens.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:25 AM   #51
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Factory farming is the farming of farm animals. What does that have to do with vegansim? How does buying food from a shop support factory farming?

Factory farming is industrial agriculture. In factory farming, animals aren't even raised on farms. They are raised in warehouses and feedlots known as confinement animal feeding operations. Farms are used to grow grains and other crops that are then shipped to factories where they are processed and shipped to stores. The very act of participating in shopping for food at a facility known as a store is participating in factory farming. Only when you buy all of your food, clothing and products directly from a producer or a supplier who contracts producers might you not be involved and supportive of factory farming, but only if those producers are not involved with factory farming. Tractor plow agriculture with imported inputs is a form of factory farming. You are living in a fantasy world. See book End Game by Derrick Jensen if you want to know the truth lol.

Most of the soyabean crop goes towards feeding farm animals. The Amazon jungle is being cut down not only to make way for soyabeans but also to create short-lived grazing areas for cattle. The cattle eat the grass and then more forest has to be cut down to create more short-lived grazing areas.

That's what vegans always say, for feeding farm animals. I know that a lot of it is for farm animals and I don't eat it or that meat, I don't know how much goes to what, all I know is that growing vegan monocultures is wrong and destroying the planet. Most of that stuff goes to industrial wet mills that create all sorts of products that are sold at stores.

Meat is subsidised by the taxpayer. All farming is. With a vegan-organic farming system there would be great diversity in crops. The monocultures of corn has nothing to do with veganism. One of the causes of man-exacerbated climate change is all the farm animals with their carbon dioxide and methane.

Meat isn't subsidized, (you spelled it wrong), corn, rice, wheat and soy are. That's why grain fed meat is cheaper. That's why chicken which should be really expensive, is so cheap compared to beef. Cows need grass, and grass is not subsidized, so cows cost more than chicken and pork and grass fed beef costs more than grain fed beef... The monocultures of corn are veganism, plenty of vegans eat corn products... It is veganism because it uses chemicals and sans animals from the process of food production and it is used to produce vegan products that vegans consume. Now they are using corn to make ethenol. They are going to keep growing these vegan monocultures no matter what unless we stop them, it is how they are destroying the earth.

Most of the wanton destruction caused by farming is due to meat, egg and dairy production. You advocate 'grass-fed beef' but, as I have said many times, there is not enough land to grow grass for all the farm animals that would be needed to feed every human with meat. Not from grass-fed, nor from crop-fed farm animals. Vegan-organic farming is the way to grow enough food for everyone and to create rich habitats for wildlife. Vegan-organic farmers encourage wildlife to help with the pollination of the crops and the management of insects that would eat the crops.



As you have said many times and were wrong. Where is your source? It's blatantly wrong because almost everyone in the world does eat meat or dairy jackass. There is plenty of land to feed enough cattle to fill everyone in the world's bellies up with butter, milk, whey, cheese and beef. Most of the world's agricultural land is not suitable for crops and there is enough meat and dairy to feed the world there. There is plenty of land still. A great deal isn't being used for anything pragmatic or just. Corn and soy are not just. Cows at grass is about the most just thing that we can do legally right now. We should blow up all the dams, stop shooting the buffalo and take down the fences and highways that block their paths, tear up all the roads, turn all the cars into something else.

Vegan-organic farming is not the way to create truly rich habitats for wildlife. If there is truly a vegan culture who does not hunt wildlife, as I said before it will eat all of your food. Farmers have to exclude wildlife from their farms with bird nets and deer fences, moron. Grass farmers ranching cattle are able to house a much greater volume of wildlife. Deer eat weeds out of cattle run land. Watch the video, properly grazed cattle make a dense habitat for all sorts of wildlife. The life in the soil is far greater in volume than it is in the forest as well.


Click on the right side of the page that comes up, where it says Video Feature. It says: 'Farmer Iain Tolhurst demonstrates how people can be fed with food gown Stockfree. Organically, Ethically and Sustainably.'
http://www.veganorganic.net/ You might have to double-click it. I can't get the full screen version but I have done so before. Yes, I can, I right clicked on the image and then chose 'full screen' from the drop down menu. To get out of that again, right click and choose 'exit full screen' or some such wording. It must be great working on a farm like that. I wish I had some land.

I will watch this when I get a chance. Every permaculturalist I have ever read about advocated raising animals. Every farmer I ever talked to advocated raising animals. People want to raise animals, fuck off dick head.

Vegan-organic agriculture is not just an idea. It is being put to use. We won't be breeding sheep, cattle, pigs and chickens so there will be none to kill. There will, however, be lots of land left over for wild sheep, cattle, pigs and chickens. And lions, tarantulas, elephants, wrens, bisons, and yetis.

LOL. ur a joke kiddo. Why wouldn't we want to eat those animals? Predators would instead anyways. I think I have just as much a right to eat meat than a lion. My ancestors have for over a million years, who am I to question that?

Vegan-organic and permaculture are the ultimate methods for living in harmony with Nature and also allow us to live a more moral life.



A vegan diet is not expensive. It seems to be part of the IllMeatinati conspiracy that a vegan diet is expensive. It mainly consists of fruit, vegetables and cereals. Nothing expensive about them.

When I was a vegetarian it was almost impossible to satiate me. I ate so much food, I was a bottomless pit. It was because my digestive system was not able to properly utilize my diet. I am a meat eater, I need meat and dairy and eggs and seafood to stay healthy.

Muggers love their victims, too, because their victims give them so much. Our victims do not give us anything. We take it all. And then take their lives. It is true that eating meat has helped us to live in certain climates. That is because we belong in the tropics. In the trees of the tropics.

That's just like your opinion man. We evolved, get over it dingus. You are freakin wakko vegan nazi. Ur almost as bad as ratiocinator. UR A MORON YOU JUST DESTROYED UR ENTIRE ARGUMENT DUMBASS

Why should we see Potenger's Cats? We are not cats. Cats are obligate carnivores. We are not. Nor are we obligate omnivores. You have no evidence that veganism is unsustainable over many generations.

You have no more evidence then I do friend.

There are no vegan societies because it was not easy being vegan in most of the world. We lead lives very different to how we evolved. It is easy being vegan in most places where humans live now, though.

Anywhere where coconuts don't grow seems pretty damn hostile climate for vegans to be to be honest. You need saturated fat to be healthy.

There are many healthy-looking vegan children. I have seen scrawny, weak-looking children from families that eat meat. The evidence for how healthy veganism is can be seen in all the healthy vegans.

Lol ok perhaps you are right, but show me them and show me what they eat lol...


It is certainly easier to live as a non-vegan. The products from animals may or may not improve the quality of life but, if they do, that is only because the world is run on cruelty towards other animals. They are used in so many different ways that it takes time to find out and eliminate as much of their products as possible. Most latex gloves contain them. Most condoms contain them. Even tyres can contain them.

My animals improve the quality of my life and I do not treat them with cruelty. My animals are not utilized by industry

You are clearly confusing 'love' with 'dependence'. They would only die because people like you have bred them to be dependent or have removed them from where they can be independent.

You think a dog can't love it's master? I think that almost everyone in the entire human race is going to disagree with you here.

You can't blame that on a vegan diet - even an almost vegan diet like the one you had. If you were anaemic it probably would have been because you weren't getting enough B12. Some small studies have found vegetarian and vegan diets to be helpful in cases of rheumatoid arthritis but they were probably too small to be conclusive.

I took plenty of B12 and I ate cheese and yogurt and at times eggs. I tried to be vegan with hemp seeds for 6 months before I started eating meat again.

As for leaky gut syndrome:


Most of the studies seem to have been done in non-human animals - which is stupid - but some were done in humans.

According to wickedpaedia, glutamine can be found in wheat, cabbage, beets, beans, spinach, and parsley. Small amounts of free L-glutamine are also found in vegetable juices and foods, such as tofu, as well as in the products of farm animal abuse.



More unfounded speculation. The majority of people who have a proper vegan diet thrive on it. Some people who don't probably either don't know what they are doing and try to exist on lettuce or they have too much of some food to which they have an allergy or intolerance - such as glycated products.

Then how come I never met a healthy vegan? I met one guy who almost seemed healthy but I don't think he was as healthy as a man should be. Unfortunately, we just aren't designed to be able to handle large amounts of most plant products... The most ancient and common vegetarian practice, Ayurveda, relies on eating an extremely diverse diet of all different sources of plants as well as milk and eggs. Vegetarianism (not veganism) is a science and it's a journey for anyone who participates in it. I think that many many people in America are limiting their lives through diet and veganism and vegetarianism are just two major outlets for that.

More speculation.

No more than your posts friend.

On one hand you say "do you really want to follow the laws of nature?" and on the other hand "we should be swinging from trees". You should be swinging in the wind for how much of a complete dingus you are.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:30 AM   #52
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"Clean meat" is neither widely available, nor affordable for 95% of US consumers, most of whom are heavily in debt, face dwindling job prospects, and have been facing a consistently lowered standard of living over time.

This is all mental masturbation; practically speaking, any rational consumer in the here and now, will buy less expensive "meat" especially if rbgh/antibiotic free stuff is 2X or 3X as much. Assuming it is easily found, which it is not.
I can buy a pound of clean meat for 5 bucks. That is more than enough meat for me for a day. I will eat 5 or 10 more dollars worth of other foods a day. It costs me 5.50 cents a day to take care of my two cows who make 8 gallons of milk every day. They have milk twice as creamy as cow's milk from the store.

Consumer's shouldn't exist. Humans need to go back to the land or perish.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:38 AM   #53
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I can buy a pound of clean meat for 5 bucks. That is more than enough meat for me for a day. I will eat 5 or 10 more dollars worth of other foods a day. It costs me 5.50 cents a day to take care of my two cows who make 8 gallons of milk every day. They have milk twice as creamy as cow's milk from the store.

Consumer's shouldn't exist. Humans need to go back to the land or perish.
Your head is so far up your ass I don't know why I even bother to reply. You completely ignore the economic situation that 95% of Americans find themselves in, and ego-maniacally substitute your own rantings as if this were the general situation.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:39 AM   #54
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If a small percentage of the people are vegan (what was it, .01% of the world?) then it's not much of a conspiracy. You are saying TBTB are somehow benefiting from .01% of the population from being vegan?

If everyone was vegan as part of the 'conspiracy', then Big Agra monocrop corporations would go out of business because no one would need animal feed and everyone would have their own sustainable gardens.
I honestly didn't read the article. I don't think there is per say a vegan conspiracy, I think it's more of a conspiracy to prevent people from eating healthy animals, a conspiracy of animals and humans eating unhealthy agricultural products that are not fit for eating.

It is an anti animal, anti life conspiracy, this prospect of a green revolution and modernized agriculture.

I was wondering earlier, about the blood thirstiness of humans and animals. Is a satiated animal or human less hostile than a hungry one? My pigs get milk from my cows, tons of it, they wouldn't eat a duckling that is half bite size. I heard about pigs eating kittens, chickens and even humans. I couldn't convince my pigs to eat a dead duck. Eating the diet I am now, I feel much more satisfied, much less angry at the world and at other people.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:44 AM   #55
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Your head is so far up your ass I don't know why I even bother to reply. You completely ignore the economic situation that 95% of Americans find themselves in, and ego-maniacally substitute your own rantings as if this were the general situation.
Lol it costs me less to feed my 2 cows than almost anybody in america spends a day on food. My cows could feed several families most of their food. I am recession proof, don't worry about paco lol he ain't got no problems here! America is about to collapse I know, it's okay though it's a good thing. If it doesn't then we can't rebuild and we really really need to rebuild.

I saw this coming from a mile away, I shouted like chicken little red hen all the while, Who will help me bake my bread we will need to eat when the sky is falling? I started on this 5 years ago and here I am and I am ready for it. I am sorry that it is hardship for you, but really all the signs were there, so it just proves you as another sheep... humanity will get exactly what it deserves, they have been led to the cliff by their shepherds. If you want to be a different fish drop out of school.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:47 AM   #56
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I honestly didn't read the article. I don't think there is per say a vegan conspiracy, I think it's more of a conspiracy to prevent people from eating healthy animals, a conspiracy of animals and humans eating unhealthy agricultural products that are not fit for eating.

It is an anti animal, anti life conspiracy, this prospect of a green revolution and modernized agriculture.

I was wondering earlier, about the blood thirstiness of humans and animals. Is a satiated animal or human less hostile than a hungry one? My pigs get milk from my cows, tons of it, they wouldn't eat a duckling that is half bite size. I heard about pigs eating kittens, chickens and even humans. I couldn't convince my pigs to eat a dead duck. Eating the diet I am now, I feel much more satisfied, much less angry at the world and at other people.
Yeah, I can agree with that: a conspiracy of preventing people from having access to natural foods - meat products or otherwise.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:56 AM   #57
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ah, so apartment dwellers in harlem will be raising cows now. Makes sense to me.

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Lol it costs me less to feed my 2 cows than almost anybody in america spends a day on food. My cows could feed several families most of their food. I am recession proof, don't worry about paco lol he ain't got no problems here! America is about to collapse I know, it's okay though it's a good thing. If it doesn't then we can't rebuild and we really really need to rebuild.

I saw this coming from a mile away, I shouted like chicken little red hen all the while, Who will help me bake my bread we will need to eat when the sky is falling? I started on this 5 years ago and here I am and I am ready for it. I am sorry that it is hardship for you, but really all the signs were there, so it just proves you as another sheep... humanity will get exactly what it deserves, they have been led to the cliff by their shepherds. If you want to be a different fish drop out of school.
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Old 21-08-2011, 06:38 AM   #58
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Consumer's shouldn't exist. Humans need to go back to the land or perish.
Did you chip in to help pay for the Georgia Guidestones?
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:02 PM   #59
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In answer to pacoquerak's post (number 51, at the top of this page). His opinions are in blue and my facts are in green.

Factory farming is industrial agriculture. In factory farming, animals aren't even raised on farms. They are raised in warehouses and feedlots known as confinement animal feeding operations. Farms are used to grow grains and other crops that are then shipped to factories where they are processed and shipped to stores. The very act of participating in shopping for food at a facility known as a store is participating in factory farming. Only when you buy all of your food, clothing and products directly from a producer or a supplier who contracts producers might you not be involved and supportive of factory farming, but only if those producers are not involved with factory farming. Tractor plow agriculture with imported inputs is a form of factory farming. You are living in a fantasy world. See book End Game by Derrick Jensen if you want to know the truth lol.

If you want to use that term to apply to all farming of an industrial nature you can but it has nothing to do with veganism. The beneficiaries are not only vegans. They are people who eat vegetables and grains and meat. By buying vegetables I am not supporting meat. The farm animals abused in feedlots have nothing to do with veganism. By your reasoning, anyone who buys anything is participating in everything. If you are so pure you should be living away from all human contact because every contact with humans sullies your ethics. At this moment you are benefitting from slavery and genocide. The USA would be a different place if there had never been slavery. If the Indians hadn't been massacred or evicted you wouldn't have the land you have now to keep your sheep on. You should give that land back to the Indians. Shame on you!

Monocultures came into being before the concept of veganism was re-invented in the 1940s. Who do you think monocultures are designed for? The farmers and the general public, that's who. They would still exist without any vegans.

With vegan-organic farming, we would have fewer monocultures and a greater diversity of crops.


That's what vegans always say, for feeding farm animals. I know that a lot of it is for farm animals and I don't eat it or that meat, I don't know how much goes to what, all I know is that growing vegan monocultures is wrong and destroying the planet. Most of that stuff goes to industrial wet mills that create all sorts of products that are sold at stores.

Those crops aren't grown with vegans in mind. Those ominvore monocultures are grown to feed cattle and sheep and meat eaters.

Meat isn't subsidized, (you spelled it wrong), corn, rice, wheat and soy are. That's why grain fed meat is cheaper. That's why chicken which should be really expensive, is so cheap compared to beef. Cows need grass, and grass is not subsidized, so cows cost more than chicken and pork and grass fed beef costs more than grain fed beef... The monocultures of corn are veganism, plenty of vegans eat corn products... It is veganism because it uses chemicals and sans animals from the process of food production and it is used to produce vegan products that vegans consume. Now they are using corn to make ethenol. They are going to keep growing these vegan monocultures no matter what unless we stop them, it is how they are destroying the earth.

As I speak the form of English in the country where it was invented, my spelling of the word is correct. You spelled 'soya' wrongly. Cattle and sheep meat is subsidised in the whole of the EU. If all cattle were fed on grass they would also be subsidised by the animals both human and non-human whose land was taken off them to make prairies. Once again, monocultures have nothing to do with veganism. You make yourself sound ignorant by repeating that. Vegan-organic does not advocate the use of chemicals. The clue is in the name. Using plants to make fuel has nothing to do with veganism. Yes, they will keep growing these omnivore monocultures until they stop growing them. Only vegan-organic can save the world.

Subsidies for meat:
Quote:
DEFRA is facing calls to retract its stance on Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) reform in light of research showing its plans would wipe out large sections of the UK beef and sheep sectors.

The Government’s position is outlined in a 2005 Defra/Treasury ‘Vision for the CAP’ document, which proposes the abolition of production subsidies alongside a big reduction in import tariffs within the next 10 to 15 years.

However, an impact assessment led by Belfast’s Food and Agricultural Policy Research Institute (FAPRI), has concluded the vision would have ‘dramatic consequences’ for the UK beef and sheep sectors.
http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/.../28245.article


As you have said many times and were wrong. Where is your source? It's blatantly wrong because almost everyone in the world does eat meat or dairy jackass. There is plenty of land to feed enough cattle to fill everyone in the world's bellies up with butter, milk, whey, cheese and beef. Most of the world's agricultural land is not suitable for crops and there is enough meat and dairy to feed the world there. There is plenty of land still. A great deal isn't being used for anything pragmatic or just. Corn and soy are not just. Cows at grass is about the most just thing that we can do legally right now. We should blow up all the dams, stop shooting the buffalo and take down the fences and highways that block their paths, tear up all the roads, turn all the cars into something else.

Vegan-organic farming is not the way to create truly rich habitats for wildlife. If there is truly a vegan culture who does not hunt wildlife, as I said before it will eat all of your food. Farmers have to exclude wildlife from their farms with bird nets and deer fences, moron. Grass farmers ranching cattle are able to house a much greater volume of wildlife. Deer eat weeds out of cattle run land. Watch the video, properly grazed cattle make a dense habitat for all sorts of wildlife. The life in the soil is far greater in volume than it is in the forest as well.


Most humans do not eat much meat. It is only in the West where it is eaten every day and in large quantities. If the Chinese, Indians, other Asians and Africans start to eat in such quantities there will be disaster. The need for meat will more than double. There really isn't enough land to graze all the farm animals that would be necessary. Do you want to turn the world into one huge prairie? And how will we colonise Mars and the Moon to take the other farm animals that wouldn't fit on the Earth? And there isn't the land to grow all the omnivore monocultures that would be needed to feed the farm animals in factory farms.

Quite apart from the lack of land, where do you think all the wild animals would go if farmed cattle, sheep and aardvarks take over their land? Or where would the elephants and mountain gorillas go if omnivore monocultures are planted on their land to feed the factory farm animals?

The only way to provide enough food for every human is the vegan-organic way. And there will be lots of land left for wildlife. The wild animals that might eat the crops can easily be kept out with fences and nets. Do you think fences and nets are against vegan ethics?

You want to get rid of cars and roads!? We'll all have to travel on mud paths. All 7 thousand million humans will be tramping back and forth in the mud. No bananas or cocunuts for most of us because we'll have to get rid of ships and aeroplanes. We can't allow air fields to take up valuable grazing land. We can't have ships docking where there are no roads to transport their cargoes to anywhere.


I will watch this when I get a chance. Every permaculturalist I have ever read about advocated raising animals. Every farmer I ever talked to advocated raising animals. People want to raise animals, Expletive deleted.

No, not every permaculturist advocates the use and abuse of other animals. Only the meat eating ones do. It is true that bird and invertebrate droppings will do a bit for fertilising the land but that is natural. No non-humans need to be enslaved or imprisoned on a vegan-organic or permaculture farm. Only those that naturally appear in such places, such as insects and birds.

LOL. ur a joke kiddo. Why wouldn't we want to eat those animals? Predators would instead anyways. I think I have just as much a right to eat meat than a lion. My ancestors have for over a million years, who am I to question that?

You failed to understand my point. I said there would be plenty of land for lions instead of the present policy of killing any that are not in parks that might try to kill cattle. There will be no domesticated sheep or cattle to protect. We would graciously allow lions to do what lions do. They will be no danger to our cabbages and apples.

When I was a vegetarian it was almost impossible to satiate me. I ate so much food, I was a bottomless pit. It was because my digestive system was not able to properly utilize my diet. I am a meat eater, I need meat and dairy and eggs and seafood to stay healthy.

You probably just needed to repair your leaky gut by reducing the glycated products and increasing your levels of glutamine. Both of which can be done in a vegan diet. And your intestinal flora probably needed a change.

That's just like your opinion man. We evolved, get over it dingus. You are freakin wakko vegan nazi. Ur almost as bad as ratiocinator. UR A MORON YOU JUST DESTROYED UR ENTIRE ARGUMENT DUMBASS

You are being a silly billy. Please explain how I destroyed my argument.

You have no more evidence then I do friend.

I have evidence that cats are obligate carnivores and that we are not obligate omnivores.

Anywhere where coconuts don't grow seems pretty damn hostile climate for vegans to be to be honest. You need saturated fat to be healthy.

No, we do not need saturated fat to be healthy. The only fats we need are ALA and LA, which is why they are called essential fatty acids.

Lol ok perhaps you are right, but show me them and show me what they eat lol...

I don't collect pictures of children. You can search vegan sites for the information and pictures.

My animals improve the quality of my life and I do not treat them with cruelty. My animals are not utilized by industry

I think the ones you kill will disagree. And they are utilised by your own industry.

You think a dog can't love it's master?

Your choice of words betrays your attitude. We do not master our loved ones. We may be the pack leader to our dogs but we should not be their masters. Would you master your wife or children? You need to look up the word 'love' to find out what it means.

I took plenty of B12 and I ate cheese and yogurt and at times eggs. I tried to be vegan with hemp seeds for 6 months before I started eating meat again.

If you took plenty of B12 it couldn't have been a B12 deficiency. You were probably deficient in something else or eating something that didn't agree with you. As B12 is the only thing lacking from an unfortified vegan diet, it can't have had anything to do with being vegan.

Then how come I never met a healthy vegan? I met one guy who almost seemed healthy but I don't think he was as healthy as a man should be. Unfortunately, we just aren't designed to be able to handle large amounts of most plant products... I think that many many people in America are limiting their lives through diet and veganism and vegetarianism are just two major outlets for that.

You must have met some ignorant people. All the vegans I've known have been healthy. How many vegans have you met? I know vegans over the internet who've never in all their born days met another vegan. We are designed to handle large amounts of plant food. I eat nothing else. Fad diets, or limiting one's life through diet, whether vegan, vegetarian or raw meat, have nothing to do with veganism. Vegans do not limit their lives.

On one hand you say "do you really want to follow the laws of nature?" and on the other hand "we should be swinging from trees". You should be swinging in the wind for how much of a complete dingus you are.

I have never advocated going back to swinging in the trees. I have merely pointed out that that's what our ancestors did. The closest I get to such activity is in doing pull ups and dips on bars.
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Old 21-08-2011, 02:04 PM   #60
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Does anyone else find the title of this thread amusing?

The Vegan Conspiracy

Help me, the vegans are coming after me, they want me to eat their fruit, vegeables, soy milk and chick peas - run!
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