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Old 01-04-2009, 02:31 PM   #1
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Default G20 protesters storm RBS branch

G20 protesters storm RBS branch as Brown-Obama meeting upstaged

(Video on site - see link at bottom)

Anti-capitalist protesters stormed a branch of the Royal Bank of Scotland today as police struggled to keep a lid on increasingly violent G20 demonstrations in the City of London.

While Gordon Brown received a succession of world leaders in Downing Street, including Barack Obama on his first overseas trip as president, thousands of demonstrators converged on the Bank of England.

In bright spring sunshine, the demonstrations were initially good-natured but police soon had to retreat behind barriers as scuffles broke out and protesters from four separate marches converged on the scene.

A small group, many wearing scarves and bandanas to mask their faces, smashed windows in an apparently empty RBS building off Threadneedle Street. The RBS received billions of pounds of taxpayer funds last year to prevent its collapse but has been widely criticised for awarding its former chief executive, Sir Fred Goodwin, a £700,000 pension for life at the age of 50.

Many City workers had turned up for work "dressed down" - on police advice - to avoid becoming a target for the protesters. Yet the antagonism was clear as City staff waved £10 notes from their office windows and bellowed insults at the marchers below.

The number of arrests was unclear, although the Metropolitan Police said that 11 people were held after they drove a blue-painted armoured personnel carrier - marked with the words "Riot Police" - towards Bishopgate this morning. All 11 were arrested for being in possession of police uniforms.

The protests upstaged negotiations led by the Prime Minister for tomorrow's meeting in nearby Docklands and, specifically, the summit communique.

Mr Obama and his wife Michelle received a rare round of applause from staff as they arrived for a breakfast meeting at 10 Downing Street.

Mr Obama's outsized motorcade was just the first in a series of armoured convoys due to pass through the Downing Street gates. The Prime Minister was also holding talks with President Medvedev of Russia, President Hu of China, the Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh and Taro Aso, Prime Minister of Japan.

But the two leaders who most threaten to upset Mr Brown's plans for the G20 are not due at No 10 until this evening, when all the G20 heads of state and government meet for a pre-summit dinner.

Mr Sarkozy and Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, have already scuppered UK attempts to have the meeting endorse a massive and coordinated fiscal stimulus. They are now pushing for the summit to make clear progress on tighter regulation of financial markets to replace the "light-touch" Anglo-Saxon model blamed for the current crisis.

Asked on Europe 1 this morning about a Times report that he would be prepared to walk out of the summit if he does not agree with its conclusions, Mr Sarkozy replied: "I will not associate myself with a summit that would end with a communiqué made of false compromises that would not tackle the issues that concern us."

He went on: "As of today, there is no firm agreement in place. The conversation is going forward, there are projects on the table. As things stand at the moment, these projects do not suit France or Germany."

At a joint press conference with Mr Brown, Mr Obama denied that there was any real disagreement on the need for governments to boost their economies, just normal discussions as to how best to do it.

"The truth is that that's just arguing at the margins," he said. "The core notion that government has to take some steps to deal with a contracting market place and to restore growth is not in dispute."

Mr Brown also did his best to laugh off Mr Sarkozy's walk-out threat. "I'm confident that President Sarkozy will be here not just for the first course of our dinner but will still be here when we complete our dinner this evening," he said.

While hopes of a new co-ordinated international stimulus of the world economy have faded, negotiations are proceeding on rules to curb excessive bonuses, control tax havens, extend regulation to hedge funds, introduce greater co-operation between national regulators and draw up fresh mechanisms to stop protectionism.

The summit at the ExCeL centre in Docklands comes as the World Bank said that the global economy would shrink by 1.7 per cent this year and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development predicted a 2.7 per cent contraction, the worst since the Second World War.

But while Mr Brown pointed out that G20 governments had already agreed fiscal stimulus packages totalling more than $2 trillion, Mr Obama warned that the rest of the world could not simply rely on "voracious" American consumers to drive the global recovery.

"If there is to be new growth, it cannot just be the United States as the engine," he said. "Everyone is going to have to pick up the pace."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6016126.ece
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:52 PM   #2
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Question How many paparazzis Does it Take to smash a window

Come to think of it how many to Screw in a light Bulb ??

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Old 01-04-2009, 09:54 PM   #3
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Default Agent Provocateur Riots Commence in London at G20

Kurt Nimmo
Infowars
April 1, 2009
It looks like the agents provocateurs — otherwise known as anarchists — are having their way in London as the G20 commences. From a blog covering the protests posted at the Guardian:

The “hardcore” protesters have broken through police lines and have made their way to an unboarded HSBC branch on Queen Victoria Street, says Guardian reporter Paul Lewis. An anarchist flag has been raised on an office block opposite the branch, he adds. The Press Association reported a fight on the same street between two men — one wearing a suit — which was broken up by police.




Smashing up banks and beating up guys in suits will do nothing to stop the bankers from looting the wealth of billions of people and engineering the collapse of the world economy in order to usher in their world “super-currency” and world government.

As the photo here shows, the “anarchists” are grist for the corporate media. One lone “anarchist” takes out a bank window while dozens of cameras whirl and click to catch the action.

It’s all an orchestrated sideshow to the G20 criminal confab designed to discredit legitimate protests. There is little coverage of the actual protesters as the corporate media rushes to photograph agents provocateurs smashing windows at the Royal Bank of Scotland.

The Guardian comments on the fact the “anarchists” and the corporate media are working with the state in order to discredit legitimate protest:

On Twitter, Snufkin21 says Stop the War protesters booed the media present “for hyping up the G20 violence”. The huge media presence has been criticized by a number of people on Twitter who believe it’s encouraged extreme elements to “play to the gallery”.



George Monbiot offers a blog entry on the cops and their “force majeure” at the summit:

The trouble-makers are out in force again. Dressed in black, their faces partly obscured, some of them appear to be interested only in violent confrontation. It’s almost as if they are deliberately raising the temperature, pushing and pushing until a fight kicks off. But this isn’t some disorganized rabble: these people were bussed in and are plainly acting in concert. There’s another dead giveaway. They are all wearing the same slogan: Police.

The cops “have a powerful interest in exaggerating threats and, perhaps, an interest in ensuring that sometimes these threats materialize,” writes Monbiot. “This could explain what I’ve seen at one protest after another, where peaceful demonstrations turn into ugly rucks only when the police attack. The wildly disproportionate and unnecessary violence I’ve sometimes seen the police deploy could scarcely be better designed to provoke a reaction.”


This “powerful interest in exaggerating threats” serves the bankers and their minions now gathered in London. It is critical they completely discredit the opposition and have their handmaiden media tool portray the legitimate opposition as crazed and violent anarchists.

It is basically a “strategy of tension” of the sort used by the Italian Gladio operation, designed to blame murderous violence on leftists. In Italy, this strategy worked like a charm as large numbers of Italians fell for the bait and blamed socialists and communists for the violence.

The staged violence will give the British state an excuse to further limit civil liberties and arrest activists, especially now as sincere and legitimate demonstrators and activists are beginning to organize in opposition to the largest and most audacious bankster rip-off in recorded history.

Reference:-

http://www.infowars.com/agent-provoc...london-at-g20/
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Old 01-04-2009, 10:58 PM   #4
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The socalled masses outside the G20 meeting - the regulare crowd of UN Loving Politically Correct Radical Left aka The Totalitarian Humanists or Anarchist. That think they are the only that should have the right to free speech - Basicly Left-wing Gatekeepers.
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:02 PM   #5
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Its funny isn't it, watching this video:


I noted that there is like one or two people trying to smash the windows and the media scrum is just watching as if willing the agent provocateurs on but the masses don't join in!

I've seen video of police separating protesters and its just so clear, the people there together could take them down, but they dont!

Good to see that the agent provocateurs aren't winning.
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:03 PM   #6
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Tar everyone with the same brush - demonstrators, protesters all EVIL according to news pundits.
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Old 02-04-2009, 01:52 AM   #7
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Default professonal provocateurs

Break into the bank was done professonal agents provocateurs — otherwise known as anarchists.

Quote:
Agent provocateur

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_provocateur#Europe

Traditionally, an agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French for "inciting agent") is a person employed by the police or other entity to act undercover to entice or provoke another person to commit an illegal act. More generally, the term may refer to a person or group that seeks to discredit orharm another by provoking them to commit a wrong or rash action.

Common usage

An agent provocateur may be a police officer or a secret agent of police who encourages suspects to carry out a crime under conditions where evidence can be obtained; or who suggests the commission of a crime to another, in hopes they will go along with the suggestion and be convicted of the crime.

A political organization or government may use agents provocateurs against political opponents. The provocateurs try to incite the opponent to counter-productive or ineffective acts to foster public disdain—or provide a pretext for aggression against the opponent (see Red-baiting).

Historically, labor spies, hired to infiltrate, monitor, disrupt, or subvert union activities, have used agent provocateur tactics.

Agent provocateur activities raise ethical and legal issues. In common law jurisdictions, the legal concept of entrapment may apply if the main impetus for the crime was the provocateur.



United States

In the United States, the COINTELPRO program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation had FBI agents pose as political radicals in order to disrupt the activities of radical political groups in the U.S., such as the Black Panthers, Ku Klux Klan, and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

New York City police officers were accused of acting as agents provocateurs during protests against the 2004 Republican National Convention in New York City.

Denver police officers were also found to have used undercover detectives to instigate violence against police during the 2008 Democratic National Convention, in a botched attempt to be extracted. This ultimately resulted in the accidental use of chemical agents against their own men.

Europe

Notorious were the activities of agents provocateurs against revolutionaries in Imperial Russia. Yevno Azef is an example of such an agent provocateur.

In various European countries, Agent Provocateur is an official legal term for a person who approaches other people with a bribe offer, with consent of the police. It has proved fairly effective in combating corruption especially in former Eastern Bloc European countries.[citation needed]

There are reliable reports of the use of agents provocateurs by the British police. A striking example is the planting of a police officer in an otherwise peaceful demonstration to justify the use of force

Canada

Three protesters in Montebello, Canada during the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America were accused of being police provocateurs on August 20, 2007, by Dave Coles, president of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada. The entire incident was filmed and posted on YouTube before being picked up by mainstream media. The video shows three masked men, one of whom was armed with a large rock, being confronted by peaceful protesters. One of the masked men spoke to police officers, and then all three pretended to breach the police line and were 'arrested.' Photographs revealed that their boot-tread matched that of the arresting officers. Although they at first denied that the individuals in question were agents provocateurs, the Sûreté du Québec issued a news release on August 23 admitting that the three protesters were, in fact, police officers.
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:17 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bob_jones View Post
Kurt Nimmo
Infowars
April 1, 2009
It looks like the agents provocateurs — otherwise known as anarchists — are having their way in London as the G20 commences. From a blog covering the protests posted at the Guardian:

The “hardcore” protesters have broken through police lines and have made their way to an unboarded HSBC branch on Queen Victoria Street, says Guardian reporter Paul Lewis. An anarchist flag has been raised on an office block opposite the branch, he adds. The Press Association reported a fight on the same street between two men — one wearing a suit — which was broken up by police.




Smashing up banks and beating up guys in suits will do nothing to stop the bankers from looting the wealth of billions of people and engineering the collapse of the world economy in order to usher in their world “super-currency” and world government.

As the photo here shows, the “anarchists” are grist for the corporate media. One lone “anarchist” takes out a bank window while dozens of cameras whirl and click to catch the action.

It’s all an orchestrated sideshow to the G20 criminal confab designed to discredit legitimate protests. There is little coverage of the actual protesters as the corporate media rushes to photograph agents provocateurs smashing windows at the Royal Bank of Scotland.

The Guardian comments on the fact the “anarchists” and the corporate media are working with the state in order to discredit legitimate protest:

On Twitter, Snufkin21 says Stop the War protesters booed the media present “for hyping up the G20 violence”. The huge media presence has been criticized by a number of people on Twitter who believe it’s encouraged extreme elements to “play to the gallery”.



George Monbiot offers a blog entry on the cops and their “force majeure” at the summit:

The trouble-makers are out in force again. Dressed in black, their faces partly obscured, some of them appear to be interested only in violent confrontation. It’s almost as if they are deliberately raising the temperature, pushing and pushing until a fight kicks off. But this isn’t some disorganized rabble: these people were bussed in and are plainly acting in concert. There’s another dead giveaway. They are all wearing the same slogan: Police.

The cops “have a powerful interest in exaggerating threats and, perhaps, an interest in ensuring that sometimes these threats materialize,” writes Monbiot. “This could explain what I’ve seen at one protest after another, where peaceful demonstrations turn into ugly rucks only when the police attack. The wildly disproportionate and unnecessary violence I’ve sometimes seen the police deploy could scarcely be better designed to provoke a reaction.”


This “powerful interest in exaggerating threats” serves the bankers and their minions now gathered in London. It is critical they completely discredit the opposition and have their handmaiden media tool portray the legitimate opposition as crazed and violent anarchists.

It is basically a “strategy of tension” of the sort used by the Italian Gladio operation, designed to blame murderous violence on leftists. In Italy, this strategy worked like a charm as large numbers of Italians fell for the bait and blamed socialists and communists for the violence.

The staged violence will give the British state an excuse to further limit civil liberties and arrest activists, especially now as sincere and legitimate demonstrators and activists are beginning to organize in opposition to the largest and most audacious bankster rip-off in recorded history.

Reference:-

http://www.infowars.com/agent-provoc...london-at-g20/


The Police were there stopping these criminal anarchists destroying the city, they didnt cause the trouble. I'm sure the actions of a few did ruin it for the many, but shouldnt you be blaming those people as opposed to implying it was some sort of police/establishment plot to do this? of which you have no proof of course.
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:25 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by wchen99 View Post
The Police were there stopping these criminal anarchists destroying the city, they didnt cause the trouble. I'm sure the actions of a few did ruin it for the many, but shouldnt you be blaming those people as opposed to implying it was some sort of police/establishment plot to do this? of which you have no proof of course.
That would be to do what the people who sent the agent provocateurs want.
To do what the Illuminati want.
Why should we blame peaceful protestors who want to talk about monetary reform for violence carried out by the media and their actors?
No proof?
Are you joking?
Look at the picture of the bloke smashing the window with the iron bar.
He is surrounded by nothing but photographers.
He is doing it pre-arranged with the photographers.
OK the Express is in on it but the Guardian's front page today describes thugs smashing things surounded by photographers.
Don't you think that's kind of strange folks?
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:11 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by bob_jones View Post
Kurt Nimmo
Infowars
April 1, 2009
It looks like the agents provocateurs — otherwise known as anarchists — are having their way in London as the G20 commences. From a blog covering the protests posted at the Guardian:

The “hardcore” protesters have broken through police lines and have made their way to an unboarded HSBC branch on Queen Victoria Street, says Guardian reporter Paul Lewis. An anarchist flag has been raised on an office block opposite the branch, he adds. The Press Association reported a fight on the same street between two men — one wearing a suit — which was broken up by police.




Smashing up banks and beating up guys in suits will do nothing to stop the bankers from looting the wealth of billions of people and engineering the collapse of the world economy in order to usher in their world “super-currency” and world government.

As the photo here shows, the “anarchists” are grist for the corporate media. One lone “anarchist” takes out a bank window while dozens of cameras whirl and click to catch the action.

It’s all an orchestrated sideshow to the G20 criminal confab designed to discredit legitimate protests. There is little coverage of the actual protesters as the corporate media rushes to photograph agents provocateurs smashing windows at the Royal Bank of Scotland.

The Guardian comments on the fact the “anarchists” and the corporate media are working with the state in order to discredit legitimate protest:

On Twitter, Snufkin21 says Stop the War protesters booed the media present “for hyping up the G20 violence”. The huge media presence has been criticized by a number of people on Twitter who believe it’s encouraged extreme elements to “play to the gallery”.



George Monbiot offers a blog entry on the cops and their “force majeure” at the summit:

The trouble-makers are out in force again. Dressed in black, their faces partly obscured, some of them appear to be interested only in violent confrontation. It’s almost as if they are deliberately raising the temperature, pushing and pushing until a fight kicks off. But this isn’t some disorganized rabble: these people were bussed in and are plainly acting in concert. There’s another dead giveaway. They are all wearing the same slogan: Police.

The cops “have a powerful interest in exaggerating threats and, perhaps, an interest in ensuring that sometimes these threats materialize,” writes Monbiot. “This could explain what I’ve seen at one protest after another, where peaceful demonstrations turn into ugly rucks only when the police attack. The wildly disproportionate and unnecessary violence I’ve sometimes seen the police deploy could scarcely be better designed to provoke a reaction.”


This “powerful interest in exaggerating threats” serves the bankers and their minions now gathered in London. It is critical they completely discredit the opposition and have their handmaiden media tool portray the legitimate opposition as crazed and violent anarchists.

It is basically a “strategy of tension” of the sort used by the Italian Gladio operation, designed to blame murderous violence on leftists. In Italy, this strategy worked like a charm as large numbers of Italians fell for the bait and blamed socialists and communists for the violence.

The staged violence will give the British state an excuse to further limit civil liberties and arrest activists, especially now as sincere and legitimate demonstrators and activists are beginning to organize in opposition to the largest and most audacious bankster rip-off in recorded history.

Reference:-

http://www.infowars.com/agent-provoc...london-at-g20/

Agent provocateurs are not anarchists, they are agents of the state, hence the word agent in their name. I consider myself to be an anarchist in a sense because i believe no governance is the direction we should be heading in, i, like others who hold a similar belief, are obviously not agent provocateurs.
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:46 PM   #11
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Agent provocateurs are not anarchists, they are agents of the state, hence the word agent in their name. I consider myself to be an anarchist in a sense because i believe no governance is the direction we should be heading in, i, like others who hold a similar belief, are obviously not agent provocateurs.

You support 'no governance'. Interesting. Who would protect you from crime? Or war? Where would you go if you needed an operation? Who would decide what goes in a 'no governance' society? Who would protect the vulnerable in society?

Just the first few that came to my head. Answer those well and you'll impress me.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:10 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by wchen99 View Post
You support 'no governance'. Interesting. Who would protect you from crime? Or war? Where would you go if you needed an operation? Who would decide what goes in a 'no governance' society? Who would protect the vulnerable in society?

Just the first few that came to my head. Answer those well and you'll impress me.
i will try
you protect yourself and others from crime.
it is upto ones self to avoid war.
you would go to the surgery for operations.
the people of a no governance society decide what goes in their lives.
traditionaly it is charaties, good will and relegious do gooders that sort out the vulnerable.

impressed...
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:18 PM   #13
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i will try
you protect yourself and others from crime.
it is upto ones self to avoid war.
you would go to the surgery for operations.
the people of a no governance society decide what goes in their lives.
traditionaly it is charaties, good will and relegious do gooders that sort out the vulnerable.

impressed...

The state provides the operations in the surgery.
The state protects us (as best it can) from crime.
War is human nature. Removing the system of government will create a more violence society. Look at the backwards uncivilised Somalia - no govt for over a decade. No one there feeds others, or looks out for their fellow man. It's chaos. Anarchy. Violence rules. The rich become even more powerful than they do here because there is no state to keep them in check.

Study Somalia in the last 15 or so years, and then tell me that a system of no governance can work.
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Old 02-04-2009, 11:48 PM   #14
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The state provides the operations in the surgery.
The state protects us (as best it can) from crime.
War is human nature. Removing the system of government will create a more violence society. Look at the backwards uncivilised Somalia - no govt for over a decade. No one there feeds others, or looks out for their fellow man. It's chaos. Anarchy. Violence rules. The rich become even more powerful than they do here because there is no state to keep them in check.

Study Somalia in the last 15 or so years, and then tell me that a system of no governance can work.
i was going on the pretex of not having a state.
i dont know much about somalia isnt it basically a dessert
are you sure no one there feeds each other.
there must be some fat pirates if they dont
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:18 AM   #15
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The state provides the operations in the surgery.
The state protects us (as best it can) from crime.
War is human nature. Removing the system of government will create a more violence society. Look at the backwards uncivilised Somalia - no govt for over a decade. No one there feeds others, or looks out for their fellow man. It's chaos. Anarchy. Violence rules. The rich become even more powerful than they do here because there is no state to keep them in check.

Study Somalia in the last 15 or so years, and then tell me that a system of no governance can work.
Somalia might be chaos but chaos is not anarchy. The terms 'chaos' and 'anarchy' are bound together by lazy-ass, story-seeking journalists and politicians as a means of deception.

In a world or society with no leader does not mean there will be no organisation. People can still be healed from illness, people can still unite to resist a common enemy and stop criminals.

Anarchy means no leader but does not mean no organisation.

Also regards to Agent Provocateurs - this is a tactic that has been used and obviously exists. If you think it can't happen in Britain and only in other places then I would advise - think again!

Plant the AP seed in your head and let it grow. Would/Could this tactic be used today and would certain people benefit? Think about it a little!
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:32 AM   #16
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You support 'no governance'. Interesting. Who would protect you from crime? Or war? Where would you go if you needed an operation? Who would decide what goes in a 'no governance' society? Who would protect the vulnerable in society?

Just the first few that came to my head. Answer those well and you'll impress me.
There are many answers to those questions.

And the answers need a bit of background information.

Let me make this clear also, it wont happen overnight due to the manipulated situation our current societies are in.

Firstly crime, why is there crime? Society the way it is creates it, babies are not born thiefs, rapists, or murderers, it is a learned behaviour, the environment they live in and thier peers are the main reasons for how they act. Thus, when society is more peaceful, food and shelter in abundance, crime would be non-existent, for why would people in abundance of food, shelter, and living in peace, commit what we call a crime?

Government is a solution given to the public, because of a manufactured unpeaceful society, and was allowed to be implemented because of the reaction that occured due to that problem. A classic problem, reaction, solution.

Humans are quite capable of living in peace with each other, and in harmony with other species on this planet.

War would not exist for the same reasons, in an abundant, peaceful society.

Vis a vis a surgical operation, what kind of operation? Can this problem be solved through natural alternative remedies? For example bio-energy, using the bodies electro-magnetism to heal, i.e reiki. What cant be healed through energy healing techniques like reiki? When one understands these bodies are illusions, manifestations of consciousness, energy manipulated to form an apparently physical body, then why cant energy healing heal the wound you might think operation would solve?

Humans have not always used operations to solve a health problem, and anyway, do operations really solve these problems? Or treat the symptoms instead? Would energy healing not solve the problem, and be a better solution, rather than using surgery which treats the symptom? Lastly on this point, other animals get along fine without surgery in the wild, im sure humans could too.

No human would feel the needs to dictate to others in a peaceful abundant society, why would they feel the need to? This type of environment breeds social and loving activity. I know this might sound hard to imagine living in our current society, and i understand this type of society might not occur within the next 20 years, however it might do, and regardless of the timescale involved, it is possible.

The vulnerable? Why would humans feel vulnerable in the supra society? I'll finish this mini essay at that point. I hope that answered your questions, this is my perspective of life, and of course i dont expect you to agree with me just because i typed this out, but hopefully you can view the angle that i am thinking from.

EDIT: Also, to add to what richanpoor wrote above me, yes, anarchy is not chaos. Anarchy means no governance, peaceful anarchy is what i seek.
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:55 AM   #17
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It's good to read some well thought out answers. I disagree with you, but I'm glad you think through these matters properly. I would say that the kind of stateless society where crime doesn't happen just because people are nice to each other is too idealistic and never going to happen. I do see your angle, I can't agree with it though.

Without organisation, wouldn't there be inaction? Think about Ancient Greece and its direct democracy. Everyone had their say, but nothing got done because there was no hierarchy to the democracy. It was too loose and unfocused. Isn't organisation essential to progress? People naturally would be unlikely to organise in the interests of all, they would organise themselves along their own racial/social kinds. Living with their own. Their organisation would only exist to further their own interests. States are needed to organise for all.

Aren't greed, anger, jealousy, rage all natural human characteristics? The role of the state is too keep these negative characteristics in check. With no state, I don't see why humanity would get any less violent. Anarchy does not always equate to chaos, but in many cases it does. In the case of Somalia, the only real modern example of a stateless place, chaos does equal anarchy. No society could ever have abundant food or shelter because humans are selfish and greedy, and the grass is always greener on the other side.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by wchen99 View Post
It's good to read some well thought out answers. I disagree with you, but I'm glad you think through these matters properly. I would say that the kind of stateless society where crime doesn't happen just because people are nice to each other is too idealistic and never going to happen. I do see your angle, I can't agree with it though.

Without organisation, wouldn't there be inaction? Think about Ancient Greece and its direct democracy. Everyone had their say, but nothing got done because there was no hierarchy to the democracy. It was too loose and unfocused. Isn't organisation essential to progress? People naturally would be unlikely to organise in the interests of all, they would organise themselves along their own racial/social kinds. Living with their own. Their organisation would only exist to further their own interests. States are needed to organise for all.

Aren't greed, anger, jealousy, rage all natural human characteristics? The role of the state is too keep these negative characteristics in check. With no state, I don't see why humanity would get any less violent. Anarchy does not always equate to chaos, but in many cases it does. In the case of Somalia, the only real modern example of a stateless place, chaos does equal anarchy. No society could ever have abundant food or shelter because humans are selfish and greedy, and the grass is always greener on the other side.
Ok, im going to keep this reply short and sweet, which might simplify my perspective.

People do not need to be organised by anyone to have the motivation to do something.

Ancient greece was still governed.

People can still progress in whatever they like without organisation, that said people can still create organisations whereby there is no governance, and a mutual giving and receiving of ideas takes place.

People can still do things that are not in the best interests of all without governance.

Greed, anger, jealousy, rage are animal instincts, which can be overrided by consiousness and would be in a peaceful abundant society.

Somalia is not a place of peace and abundance.

Again, greed is an animal instinct which consciousness can override, and in a peaceful and abundant society, it would.
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"Time isn’t precious at all, because it is an illusion. What you perceive as precious is not time but the one point that is out of time: the Now. That is precious indeed. The more you are focused on time—past and future—the more you miss the Now, the most precious thing there is." - Eckhart Tolle

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Old 05-04-2009, 09:54 PM   #19
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Look at the picture of the bloke smashing the window with the iron bar.
He is surrounded by nothing but photographers.
He is doing it pre-arranged with the photographers.
OK the Express is in on it but the Guardian's front page today describes thugs smashing things surounded by photographers.
Don't you think that's kind of strange folks?
Yes, very strange, but then on the other hand, no not really - this is a media war we are in.
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Old 06-04-2009, 07:54 PM   #20
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Yes, very strange, but then on the other hand, no not really - this is a media war we are in.
What are you talking about?
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