View Single Post
Old 06-07-2018, 01:40 AM   #23
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 661
Likes: 8 (8 Posts)

Originally Posted by white light View Post
But if gods foreknowledge is of all possible outcomes then there is no validation, as validation depends upon the possibility of invalidation which would be impossible with foreknowledge of all. You may think that's a semantic argument, in which case redefine your argument to exclude invalid terms, otherwise it makes no sense.
I guess you could use "determined" in this situation. Either way, my argument still stands.

And anyway, I never said that the action was a causal result of the foreknowledge of it.
Jesus.. You just shot yourself in the foot with this one. If foreknowledge did not cause the action, then we have one contender left - and that is ... Free Will.

Thank you sir.

However, if god has no foreknowledge of the action before the action being causally ordained, then how can it be god that causally ordained it and subsequently have foreknowledge of it?And if it wasn't causally ordained then foreknowledge would be impossible.
Now you're just putting words in my mouth, when did I ever entertain the idea that god may not have foreknowledge prior to the occurrence of an event ? We've already assumed otherwise, that god has foreknowledge. What is being debated here is whether foreknowledge has some sort of causal capacity over the occurrence of an event. Let's not miss the point and go off on an erroneous tangent here.

Multiverse theory postulates that every action springs into life a new universe, and every action in that new universe springs into life a new universe. With free will in action that's a heck of a lot of universes. Your postulation of god's relationship to Adam and Eve is akin to multiverse theory, and you are effectively suggesting that god would have foreknowledge of everything that happens in every universe within a multiverse of almost infinite universes. That's quite a lot to validate.
You're going off on a tangent. Alot of assumptions, let's not make this more complicated than it is.

Is god merely an observer now? It's a poor teacher who lets a student fail because he is sure that the student will do so. A good teacher will make effort to change such seeming inevitabilities. Otherwise he can hardly call himself a teacher.
Straw man. Intervention is entirely superfluous and does not undermine my argument.

I never said what you are suggesting I said.

And I don't know why we are talking about eclipses when you were originally talking about Adam & Eve's free will. It's not like the eclipse has free will to choose whether to eclipse or not.
The analogy is still valid, regardless. The point is that there is nothing to suggest that foreknowledge as a "cause", has the ability to materialize the occurrence of a lunar eclipse.

It is not because I foreknew X would happen that it retroactively causes the occurrence of X to become true.

How do you know what's mutually inclusive for god? One could say that anything was mutually inclusive for and in god. God being god 'n' all. As such it becomes a meaningless statement.

It's mutually inclusive as in one does not negate the other. I mean, in what way does God's interest hamper the manifestation of a human's free will ?

Let's suppose that God has no interest in us, humans. Would that somehow halt the ability for humans to exercise free will ? You argue as if God's interest is some sort of causal power.

Why did god give free will if he knows all outcomes of what free will will garner? God could have not given free will and the result would be exactly the same for god, foreknowledge of the outcome. There is no difference. So, why bother? What's in it for god?

Well in the case there's no free will, foreknowledge would have an influence over our actions. A bit like an application, its functionality is contingent upon lines of codes programmed by a developer. So yes, there's a difference here.
The belief there was once absolutely nothing. And nothing happened to the nothing until the nothing magically exploded (for no reason), creating everything and everywhere. Then a bunch of the exploded everything magically rearranged itself (for no reason whatsoever), into self-replicating bits which eventually turned into dinosaurs.

And they mock your beliefs.

Last edited by dr0n3; 06-07-2018 at 02:02 AM.
dr0n3 is offline   Reply With Quote