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Old 29-03-2015, 08:33 PM   #1192
logos880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
But it talks about raising up, not resurrected to have another bash at it.
I won't post this entire passage bc of it's length:

the resurrection body

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...58&version=NLT

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
I have.

But consider that the Jews were not the first people (according to archeology) and this is not the first text on point and that it is based on earlier texts by different societies.

For example, there are huge parallels between Genesis and the Egyptian creation myth.
I've thought about this point since yesterday, and I'll say that there is a deeper, spiritual meaning to "martyrs for Jesus" apart from the literal meaning. however, all meaning would be analogous.

as an aside, sometimes I get caught up in the 'back and forth' of a debate and pigeonhole myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
No, they did not have gnosis of god. They had blind obedience. Genesis is very clear that gnosis only came after eating from the tree of knowledge.
"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." knowing good and evil. G-d is good. adam and eve knew G-d, therefore, they knew good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
Ignorance is bliss.
I think that depends on what one is ignorant of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
It is a choice between liberation and servitude. But a choice between the two is not freedom.
servitude to the Most High is liberation. it is our true purpose.

"you, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. but do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love."

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
So when government imposes regulations this makes you free?
depends on the regulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
Why?
we were meant to choose. we are meant to mature from seeds into trees, and become contributors to the great song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
Then he is not omnibenevolent?
I'd say that the greater good is to allow freedom of choice. consider that fire burns but also purifies. if fire were made so that it didn't burn it also wouldn't purify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
I don't know a lot about Tolkien. I do find it interesting that he refers to music which of course is symbolic for (or another function of) harmony.

Plato's harmony of the spheres is also important for the workings of the Universe - particularly its astrological implications.
agreed.

eru illuvator was tolkien's version of the Creator within the middle earth cosmogony. eru created through song, and created lesser beings who also created (sub-created) through song. melkor was the first of those beings to sing disharmoniously. eru allowed it bc it only made the song that much more beautiful; bitter sweet. so, even disharmony couldn't ultimately disrupt the great song of eru, it only furthered eru's purpose despite melkor's wishes.

this relates to what tolkien called the "eucatastrophe", the sudden plot twist in a 'fairy story' that provided a happy ending. tolkien called the birth of Yeshua the eucatastrophe of history, and the resurrection of Yeshua the eucatastrophe of the gospel itself. even the serpent's disharmony worked toward the great song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by muhammad bear View Post
He acknowledges that evil runs against the concept an all powerful all loving go that intervenes.

He doesn't manage to answer the question though. He just says it cannot be understood.
I don't see that he's saying that. lewis is saying that his concept of justice wasn't to be found in reality, so where did he get his concept of justice? this is similar to plato's theory of forms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiki: theory of forms
These Forms are the essences of various objects: they are that without which a thing would not be the kind of thing it is. For example, there are countless tables in the world but the Form of tableness is at the core; it is the essence of all of them.[14] Plato's Socrates held that the world of Forms is transcendent to our own world (the world of substances) and also is the essential basis of reality. Super-ordinate to matter, Forms are the most pure of all things. Furthermore, he believed that true knowledge/intelligence is the ability to grasp the world of Forms with one's mind.[15]
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