Thread: The Quran Lies
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Old 26-12-2017, 02:37 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by oz93666 View Post
Spot on Mo ... Anyone who is still hanging on to christianity should see this video by Joseph Awill ...It's the culmination of his life's work , and it blows christianity out of the water ....
Over the last 17 years on Internet forums, I've had so many debates on this topic and those that promote the idea of a Pagan Christ are doing nothing less that falling in line with the Pagan belief system and the occult cabal that's behind the NWO agenda. Click on the link at the bottom of quote below and go to towards the end of the page and read the long exchange between the author and Atwill. Atwill is a total crank. If this Roman family invented the belief system as we know it today, why on earth did they include in their scriptures the prophecies that the Church would be exposed as a modern version of the Old Babylonian Pagan religion (Babylon the Great)? Why did they prophesy that the Church would end up becoming Satanic and that it will go off into destruction? The book of Revelation actually exposes the global Reptilian NWO agenda, so why should this Roman family want to do that? Why did they prophesy that NWO agenda would fail and the reptilian Serpent crushed in the head by Christ? Why did the Roman Church make every endeavour to prevent that Bible from being translated so that ordinary people could not understand it? Why was there never any debate and even not the slightest rumours, or murmurings, in the early centuries amongst Gnostics and Christians that the Christ story was a fabrication? There isn't a single serious academic university scholar who specialises Classics that takes these old Pisonian conspiracy theory claims seriously!

Atwill’s Cranked-up Jesus

Joseph Atwill is one of those crank mythers I often get conflated with. Mythicists like him make the job of serious scholars like me so much harder, because people see, hear, or read them and think their nonsense is what mythicism is. They make mythicism look ridiculous. So I have to waste time (oh by the gods, so much time) explaining how I am not arguing anything like their theories or using anything like their terrible methods, and unlike them I actually know what I am talking about, and have an actual Ph.D. in a relevant subject from a real university.

Note that I have divided this article into two parts, the second (titled “Our Long Conversation”) is something you can easily skip (see the intro there for whether reading it will be of any interest to you). So although this post looks extraordinarily long, it’s really that second part that gives it such length. You can just read up to the beginning of that section though. You don’t have to continue beyond that to get the overall point.

Atwill Who?

Atwill is the one dude I get asked about most often.[*] And now apparently even Dawkins is tweeting about Atwill, thanks to his upcoming venture into England later this month to sell his weird Roman Conspiracy variety of Jesus mythicism. To get the gist you can check out his PR puff piece. Thomas Verenna has already written a deconstruction of that. Notably even Acharya S (D.M. Murdock) doesn’t buy Atwill’s thesis, declaring that she does “not concur with Atwill’s Josephus/Flavian thesis” and that “the Flavians, including Josephus, did not compose the canonical gospels as we have them.” Robert Price has similarly soundly debunked his book, even after strongly wanting to like it.

Atwill is best known as the author of Caesar’s Messiah (subtitle: “The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus,” Roman meaning the Roman imperial family…yeah). In this Atwill argues “Jesus [is] the invention of a Roman emperor” and that the entire (?) New Testament was written by “the first-century historian Flavius Josephus” who left clues to his scheme by littering secret hidden coded “parallels” in his book The Jewish War. Atwill claims to prove “the Romans directed the writing of both” the JW and the NT, in order “to offer a vision of a ‘peaceful Messiah’ who would serve as an alternative to the revolutionary leaders who were rocking first-century Israel and threatening Rome,” and also (apparently) as a laughing joke on the Jews (Atwill variously admits or denies he argues the latter, but it became clear in our correspondence, which I will reproduce below…it’s weird because making fun of the Jews kind of contradicts the supposedly serious aim of persuading the Jews, yet Atwill seems to want the imperial goal to have simultaneously been both).

Notice his theory entails a massive and weirdly erudite conspiracy of truly bizarre scope and pedigree, to achieve a truly Quixotic aim that hardly makes sense coming from any half-intelligent elite of the era (even after adjusting for the Flynn effect), all to posit that the entire Christian religion was created by the Romans (and then immediately opposed by it?), who somehow got hundreds of Jews (?) to abandon their religion and join a cult that simply appeared suddenly without explanation on the Palestinian (?) book market without endorsement.

I honestly shouldn’t have to explain why this is absurd. But I’ll hit some highlights. Then I’ll reveal the reasons why I think Atwill is a total crank, and his work should be ignored, indeed everywhere warned against as among the worst of mythicism, not representative of any serious argument that Jesus didn’t exist. And that’s coming from me, someone who believes Jesus didn’t exist.

Historically, Atwill’s thesis is more or less a retooled version of the old Pisonian Conspiracy Theory, by which is not meant the actual Pisonian conspiracy (to assassinate Nero), but a wildly fictitious one in which the Piso family invented Christianity (and fabricated all its documents) through its contacts with the Flavian family, and thence Josephus (who indeed adopted that family’s name when they made him a Roman citizen, after he had tricked his officer corps into committing suicide and then surrendered to the Romans during the War… oh, and conveniently declaring Vespasian the Messiah).

This pseudo-historical nonsense is over a century old by now, first having been proposed (in a somewhat different form) by Bruno Bauer in Christ and the Caesars in 1877 (Christus und Caesaren). It has been revamped a dozen times since. Atwill is simply the latest iteration (or almost – there is a bonkers Rabbi still going around with an even wilder version). Atwill’s is very much like Bible Code crankery, where he looks for all kinds of multiple comparisons fallacies and sees conspiracies in all of them, rather than the inevitable coincidences (or often outright non-correspondences) that they really are. Everything confirms his thesis, because nothing could ever fail to. Classic nonfalsifiability. He just cherry picks and interprets anything to fit, any way he wants.

Article continues:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (TROUBLE FOR THE WICKED): I the Lord do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7
God is pure and does not approve of evil. The word "rah" (evil) in Hebrew does not mean evil in the moral sense. Contextually, when God speaks of creating evil, he is speaking of the calamities that he brings upon the enemies of his purpose.

Last edited by surfer12; 26-12-2017 at 03:14 AM.
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