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-   -   Is David Icke pro- or anti- Democracy? (https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=287756)

leighcgilbert 05-01-2015 12:42 PM

Is David Icke pro- or anti- Democracy?
 
I still can't work out where David stands on democracy. On the one hand, he has spoken contemptuously of Democracy as a form of "mob rule", while on the other hand he is critical of ruling elite organisations that are anti-democracy, e.g. in his latest book "The Perception Deception" he criticises the UN for the way in which it has implemented its "Agenda 21" programme: with little public participation. He writes on Page 624 that the ruling elite "...want NO democracy..." and want a 'Post-Democratic" society.

I agree that Democracy isn't perfect, but we have never had a proper democracy, so it's difficult to pass judgement on something that is more theory than practice. Democracy that is 'Direct' (rather than 'Representative') might inspire more confidence in Democracy.

alf hearted 05-01-2015 12:54 PM

If democracy is a kind of mob rule, it's ruled by a mob that is tolerant enough to allow his own alternative opinions. When I see the Russian, Chinese and North Korean versions of David Icke, I'll feel the world is heading in a better direction.

jhar26 09-01-2015 09:05 AM

I think he favors democracy. His main argument is that what we call a democracy really isn't but is only labelled as such. But although a democracy is the least evil of all political systems no political system can really work because of who we are as people. I mean, a right wing government with (in theory) genuine people would never be to my liking and a left wing government with genuine people would never be a good one to those with right wing opinions. So, even if the best of intentions are there (which we know aren't there to begin with) it would always be impossible to please everyone, or even a majority - no matter what the policies are.

leighcgilbert 09-01-2015 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhar26 (Post 1062365662)
I think he favors democracy. His main argument is that what we call a democracy really isn't but is only labelled as such. But although a democracy is the least evil of all political systems no political system can really work because of who we are as people. I mean, a right wing government with (in theory) genuine people would never be to my liking and a left wing government with genuine people would never be a good one to those with right wing opinions. So, even if the best of intentions are there (which we know aren't there to begin with) it would always be impossible to please everyone, or even a majority - no matter what the policies are.

My impression is that he really doesn't like democracy, and prefers intuition as the main 'organiser' of human affairs. The trouble is, the Ruling Elite also want intuition to come to the fore.

jhar26 09-01-2015 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062365828)
My impression is that he really doesn't like democracy, and prefers intuition as the main 'organiser' of human affairs. The trouble is, the Ruling Elite also want intuition to come to the fore.

Well, who doesn't really? I would also prefer a world without politicians or money and a world where everyone can do basically anything he or she wants. But that's a Utopean ideal that's not realistic when not everyone is enlightened (or whatever you want to call it) and we all know that the vast majority is never going to go for all that. But maybe in our next life or episode or whatever. Let's hope so.

leighcgilbert 09-01-2015 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhar26 (Post 1062365854)
Well, who doesn't really? I would also prefer a world without politicians or money and a world where everyone can do basically anything he or she wants. But that's a Utopean ideal that's not realistic when not everyone is enlightened (or whatever you want to call it) and we all know that the vast majority is never going to go for all that. But maybe in our next life or episode or whatever. Let's hope so.

Are you saying that its ok for the ruling elite to promote intuition as an organizing tool?

jhar26 09-01-2015 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062365978)
Are you saying that its ok for the ruling elite to promote intuition as an organizing tool?

In a ideal world there shouldn't even be a ruling elite imo. But I'm not a dreamer, so I know that there will always be one. But to answer your question - I don't know. What does a society ruled by intuition looks like anyway? Depends on what everyone's intuition is I suppose. We can do without Adolf Hitler's intuition, that's for sure. If it's the intuition of people like the ones that post on forums like this it's probably a good idea though.

grandmasterp 09-01-2015 02:45 PM

"Infinite love is the only truth -
Everything else is illusion."
(David Icke- Wembley Poster motto).

Going by that I reckon David Icke possibly considers democracy to be an illusion.

leighcgilbert 09-01-2015 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandmasterp (Post 1062366050)
"Infinite love is the only truth -
Everything else is illusion."
(David Icke- Wembley Poster motto).

Going by that I reckon David Icke possibly considers democracy to be an illusion.

Is intuition also an illusion? I don't equate intuition with 'infinite love'. Intuition is a step up from animal instincts, but is still rooted in blindly following an external command whose origins are unclear.

grandmasterp 09-01-2015 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062366279)
Is intuition also an illusion? I don't equate intuition with 'infinite love'. Intuition is a step up from animal instincts, but is still rooted in blindly following an external command whose origins are unclear.

I don't know about that.
Nor do I know what David thinks about democracy.
Nice motto though.
Makes sense to me if only as an aspiration.

leighcgilbert 14-01-2015 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062359291)
I still can't work out where David stands on democracy. On the one hand, he has spoken contemptuously of Democracy as a form of "mob rule", while on the other hand he is critical of ruling elite organisations that are anti-democracy, e.g. in his latest book "The Perception Deception" he criticises the UN for the way in which it has implemented its "Agenda 21" programme: with little public participation. He writes on Page 624 that the ruling elite "...want NO democracy..." and want a 'Post-Democratic" society.

I agree that Democracy isn't perfect, but we have never had a proper democracy, so it's difficult to pass judgement on something that is more theory than practice. Democracy that is 'Direct' (rather than 'Representative') might inspire more confidence in Democracy.

Ex-British PM Tony Blair said recently that he isn't keen on 'Direct' Democracy, when interviewed for a BBC Radio 4 series "Can Democracy Work" (Episode one, 13th Jan 2015). If his comments don't make people more open to 'Direct' democracy, I don't know what will. If direct democracy does catch on, I'm sure the Ruling Elite will try to channel it to their advantage; maybe use it as a stepping stone.

alf hearted 14-01-2015 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhar26 (Post 1062366022)
In a ideal world there shouldn't even be a ruling elite imo. But I'm not a dreamer, so I know that there will always be one. But to answer your question - I don't know. What does a society ruled by intuition looks like anyway? Depends on what everyone's intuition is I suppose. We can do without Adolf Hitler's intuition, that's for sure. If it's the intuition of people like the ones that post on forums like this it's probably a good idea though.

What about a managing elite that are accountable to the masses?

alf hearted 14-01-2015 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandmasterp (Post 1062366050)
"Infinite love is the only truth -
Everything else is illusion."
(David Icke- Wembley Poster motto).

Going by that I reckon David Icke possibly considers democracy to be an illusion.

Great on a t-shirt, but it doesn't go anywhere near enough in solving humanity's problems.

white light 27-01-2015 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062366279)
Is intuition also an illusion? I don't equate intuition with 'infinite love'. Intuition is a step up from animal instincts, but is still rooted in blindly following an external command whose origins are unclear.

I'd say yas and no. Yes intuition is ultimately an illusion, and no it's not an illusion for the practical purposes of living.

Trouble with direct democracy is that there's alot of people who have little interest in or understanding of politics, either at the deeper more fundamental levels or the law making, economic policy levels. There's probably plenty of politicians who don't really understand it either.

Question is, do we want to spend our time attempting to understand all the issues and nuances of politics for the sake of making our own laws and policy or do we want to delegate that to people who have a genuine interest in doing that?.

leighcgilbert 30-01-2015 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by white light (Post 1062386096)
I'd say yas and no. Yes intuition is ultimately an illusion, and no it's not an illusion for the practical purposes of living.

Trouble with direct democracy is that there's alot of people who have little interest in or understanding of politics, either at the deeper more fundamental levels or the law making, economic policy levels. There's probably plenty of politicians who don't really understand it either.

Question is, do we want to spend our time attempting to understand all the issues and nuances of politics for the sake of making our own laws and policy or do we want to delegate that to people who have a genuine interest in doing that?.

I see Direct Democracy as a stepping stone rather than an end in itself. Whatever the solution is to the world's problems, it's not going to happen overnight, so compromises will need to be made, especially bearing in mind that there are 7 and a half billion people in the world, with diverse opinions. We need to talk with each other and negotiate.

My problem with intuition is that you are not thinking for yourself nor taking personal responsibility, except to hand over your decision-making to a 'higher' mind/power. But what's the difference between that and representative democracy?

Intuition is seen by some occultists and New Agers as part of the evolutionary process: crude animal instincts evolve into human intuition which then evolves into 'god consciousness'. But is it the real 'God'/universal mind or the fake 'blind' god of Gnostic belief? Or is 'god consciousness' the 'blind watchmaker' espoused by Richard Dawkins, which is just some 'blind' cancerous survival instinct controlling our physical flesh?

Will we become slaves to intuition and to 'god'?

white light 30-01-2015 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062389121)
I see Direct Democracy as a stepping stone rather than an end in itself. Whatever the solution is to the world's problems, it's not going to happen overnight, so compromises will need to be made, especially bearing in mind that there are 7 and a half billion people in the world, with diverse opinions. We need to talk with each other and negotiate.

My problem with intuition is that you are not thinking for yourself nor taking personal responsibility, except to hand over your decision-making to a 'higher' mind/power. But what's the difference between that and representative democracy?

Intuition is seen by some occultists and New Agers as part of the evolutionary process: crude animal instincts evolve into human intuition which then evolves into 'god consciousness'. But is it the real 'God'/universal mind or the fake 'blind' god of Gnostic belief? Or is 'god consciousness' the 'blind watchmaker' espoused by Richard Dawkins, which is just some 'blind' cancerous survival instinct controlling our physical flesh?

Will we become slaves to intuition and to 'god'?

I personally went against alot of my intuition. I found that by doing so I was able to access higher spiritual levels quicker than if I had blindly followed it. It's a bumpy ride. Intuition doesn't come from an external god, but from a part of us that we can call god if we so choose. There are no enemies as such, just different paths to choose from.

I'm very much with you in feeling that we must take personal responsibility and it's why I call myself an anarchist when it comes to politics. Unless people are thinking for themselves their minds might as well be in chains.

Representative Democracy is a trade off. We give power away to people who want to play the politics game in order for us to go play the games we like to play. In my case it's mostly music.


.

hound_of_sound 27-03-2015 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062359291)
I still can't work out where David stands on democracy. On the one hand, he has spoken contemptuously of Democracy as a form of "mob rule", while on the other hand he is critical of ruling elite organisations that are anti-democracy, e.g. in his latest book "The Perception Deception" he criticises the UN for the way in which it has implemented its "Agenda 21" programme: with little public participation. He writes on Page 624 that the ruling elite "...want NO democracy..." and want a 'Post-Democratic" society.

I agree that Democracy isn't perfect, but we have never had a proper democracy, so it's difficult to pass judgement on something that is more theory than practice. Democracy that is 'Direct' (rather than 'Representative') might inspire more confidence in Democracy.

There will never be a perfect political solution to this. Too many people wanting different things.

Pity that David thinks democracy is mob rule. He must think little of the average person, those people who could be awakened by truth.

hound_of_sound 27-03-2015 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighcgilbert (Post 1062366279)
Is intuition also an illusion? I don't equate intuition with 'infinite love'. Intuition is a step up from animal instincts, but is still rooted in blindly following an external command whose origins are unclear.

Very true. Such love should be a conscious, willed act whereas intuition is a subconscious prompting whch can be about anything.

mousewitz 27-03-2015 04:15 PM

I think David must favour democracy as he used to be a member of the Greens. I think, from what I've read of him, he doesn't believe what we currently are sold as 'democracy' really is.

I mean, it's all rigged isn't it. We may think we can vote for who we want in, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think we truly have any say.

grandmasterp 27-03-2015 04:58 PM

"Infinite love is the only truth -
Everything else is illusion."
(David Icke- Wembley Poster motto).

Going by that I reckon David Icke possibly considers democracy to be an illusion.
(GMP)

Great on a t-shirt, but it doesn't go anywhere near enough in solving humanity's problems.
( Alf hearted)

Fair comment Alf but I still reckon David's quote there answers the OP question.
If, as David seems to claim - that - "everything else is illusion" apart from "infinite love" - then, for David; 'democracy' must be an illusion.


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