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-   -   "son of god" a legal title (https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=320973)

monklink 05-03-2018 10:05 AM

"son of god" a legal title
Before I get into detail, this is a purely rational analysis of language and historical texts with a view to alternative interpretation(s). It's not my intention to promote religion or atheism or to personally denigrate those with a particular belief; I'm just getting under the hood of what's written to get a wider perspective.

monklink 05-03-2018 10:07 AM

Those of you into legalese will no doubt be familiar with the differences between the use of "person" in common English and by the legal system. In common English the plural would be "people", but you'll find the Police and Courts record "persons". They might talk to you directly about "your person" rather than simply referring to "you".

Splitting the word's syllables it's actually 2 words: per-son.

Per is used a lot in trade, meaning for-each or for-every as in £ per kg.
Also in applied maths as in psi (lbs per square inch).

Son is a male child. Often used in relation to parentage as in "son of a gun".

monklink 05-03-2018 10:10 AM

status, property, patriarchy
Societies are normally hierarchical based on wealth and status. There are invariable property and resource squabbles. Authorities are answerable to those with the most status. They may consider they don't have the resources to deal with cases where there's insufficient property at stake to make it worthwhile.

People are sometimes considered the property of others. For example, a plantation owner might have slaves or maybe workers. In a patriarchy, females may be considered the property of higher status males. A less emotive way of putting it might be to say they are "under the protection of" or "under the care of" someone. Chaperones are less common in modern society, but still exist in some circumstances.

monklink 05-03-2018 10:13 AM

male heirs
Patriarchies usually use inheritance as a way of preserving status within a family line. That is, status or title, is passed from Father to Son (either when the father dies or become too old to continue). Even modern society is familiar with the concept of royalty being passed to the senior direct ancestor (usually male). So if a King dies, his eldest son will normally take over. Of course there are complications when there is no suitable male heir.

So is it feasible that when some of the biblical texts were written a patriarchy existed where only certain men had significant status and this status depended on who their father was? Also places were often named after the landowner and when lands were transferred the new owner would take the name for official purposes.

Robin Loxley could present himself as Robin of Loxley or Robin son of Loxley or even Robin Loxleyson.

monklink 05-03-2018 10:16 AM

sons of gog
There's a legend that before the Roman's came, Albion was ruled by Giants. The SW peninsular was ruled by Gogmagog or possibly Gog and Magog (female?) There are differing versions of the legend, but Brutus of Troy was said to have pitted his best warrior Corineus against him in a kind of gladiatorial wrestling match. The result was that Gog died falling from the cliff, but some say he beat Corineus fairly, broke his ribs and disabled him from continuing, but refused to kill him. Roman custom is said to of been that the victor either kills or spares the loser according to the Emperors wishes, but it seems he wouldn't be told what to do and so was either forced over the cliff by armed soldiers or did a Thelma & Louise.

The Masons version is that Diocletian (possibly a Roman cavalry commander or a Greece or Syrian King?) had daughters, the eldest called Alba, that he arranged marriages for. They weren't happy though and under her leadership killed their husbands. They were then set adrift for the crime and ended up at the windswept shores of Albion. Here their progeny included Gog and Magog.

Could it be that the "sons of God that came in unto the daughters of men" were actually the sons of Gog?

monklink 05-03-2018 10:21 AM

son of god
The previous seems like a fantastical tale that plays to our imaginations, perhaps it's a massive distraction, but like all legends there's probably some grain of truth there. What if some Daughters of the Empire did run away or were exiled beyond its reaches? What if the partners they chose, based on their natural physicality rather than social standing, resulted in more physically powerful offspring (over several generations)? What if Magog was a female leader of the giant race?

Modern society refers to someone born out of wedlock as "illegitimate". This seems to be a kind of shaming population control social construct. What if someone important comes from outside this system though, who doesn't know their Father's name? Maybe it's a secret or perhaps even unpronounceable or they just don't have a marriage concept? You can't just call them a bastard, they're too important. Maybe you'd use "son of god" as a respectful placeholder?

iamawaveofthesea 05-03-2018 10:28 AM

David Shayler has title himself the son of god

many people say he is crazy for this but as he points out the british legal system does not recognise a higher authority than god

If you are therefore the son of god you are above british law

monklink 07-03-2018 10:32 AM

god the father
In modern Christian practice God is consistently an analog of Father.

Our Father who art in Heaven
What are the closest (sounding) words to "heaven"?
Haven (from the Empire).
Heathen (as in "heathen gods").
"Heathen" is apparently related to the word "heath" as in (inhabiting) open country or scrub/commoners' land and is Germanic in origin from Heide (as in hide or hidden).

lesactive 21-03-2018 05:38 PM

This Online Etymology Dictionary will hopefully be compelling to you.


Has no relation to:


I find that these bits:

directly from Latin persona "human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "a mask, a false face," such as those of wood or clay worn by the actors in later Roman theater.
...are more useful in relating the word to contemporary legal usage than trying to break down old language with modern definitions of its constituent syllabic parts.

elshaper 21-03-2018 05:58 PM

Whay happens to the female population since they are not per-son? And do you think ateists are doomed?

monklink 20-07-2018 08:27 AM

compound words
Compound words, like postbox, are very common in the English language.

They are much more common however in German.

There's nothing modern about the word son. Surprise, surprise it's origin is Germanic.

son (n.)
Old English sunu "son, descendant," from Proto-Germanic *sunuz (source also of Old Saxon and Old Frisian sunu, Old Norse sonr, Danish søn, Swedish son, Middle Dutch sone, Dutch zoon, Old High German sunu, German Sohn, Gothic sunus "son"). The Germanic words are from PIE *su(e)-nu- "son" (source also of Sanskrit sunus, Greek huios, Avestan hunush, Armenian ustr, Lithuanian s?nus, Old Church Slavonic synu, Russian and Polish syn "son"), a derived noun from root *seue- (1) "to give birth" (source also of Sanskrit sauti "gives birth," Old Irish suth "birth, offspring").
Which nicely connects the term "sun of god" - something we all follow, that influences our activity, that we may even worship (to some extent).

monklink 20-07-2018 08:37 AM


Originally Posted by elshaper (Post 1063009391)
Whay happens to the female population since they are not per-son?

The King's Court only hears the cases of high status individuals; Lords and Barons. It does not concern itself with the trivialities of the peasants (whatever gender).

Any business a low status individual has with the Court would have to be via their Lord. A Lord would soon lose his status if he bothered the Court with trifling matters.

A high status Lady would get her Lord to do her business. If she didn't get satisfaction then he may find himself no longer her Lord.

Anyway, it's a repressive society where justice is tied to a hierarchy and ordinary folk have next to no say (sound familiar).

raburgeson 26-07-2018 03:33 PM

Aren't we all sons and daughters of God? Scientists chased DNA back to a single mother. That makes you just as royal as anyone else. Propaganda and spin. If god has favorites I will be kicking his butt and I will not stand in line to do it. I will start before the first person in line and will not finish until the last in line finishes. No body is going to stand there and say because I followed them I should be able to pass. I should be able to say that for myself.

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