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reve 03-10-2012 09:20 AM

Blessed are the peacemakers
 
The coming war is based on ancient religious prejudices, themselves based on misinterpretations of 'Scriptures' and convenient lies. I wondered if it might help to look at these in some detail in this nice part of the Forum.

'Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God' is a Christian beatitude from Matthew 5:9 and in my view the truest statement in the Bible. I for one do not accept that the Bible, Torah or Koran give humans any 'God given' rights over others but these curious old books are used to justify many crimes. They have started many wars and killed many innocents.

Time for a deeper look. I did not choose the Religion section for this thread because it is more relevant here, where people are trying to do what they can to awake the world to a long hidden truth.

Greetings all

reve x

reve 03-10-2012 12:19 PM

Promises promises
 
Most of this will be well known to any readers here but I mean to start at the beginning. In this case the ‘beginning’ is not 3,500 years ago at all.

When the term ‘America’ is used it contains a huge number of people with many different views. As far as peacekeeping or peacemaking is concerned the Americans made all the difference to the outcomes of the last two world wars, as did the Russians in the Second World War. In their case these were not wars of aggression but supposed to put an end to it. Some will differ in their view of this so I use the word ‘supposed’.

The US Census does not ask about religion. Wikipedia says that around 4% of US citizens are either Muslim, Hindu. Buddhist or Jewish. A very small percentage. 1.7% are Mormon and 26% Evangelical Christian. In fact Christians of all denominations account for over 78%.

The reason I mention this is because of the huge political lobby in the US which determines so much of its foreign policy. Any candidate for the Presidency dare not alienate the Evangelical alliance. What is perhaps curious is why that alliance is so enthusiastic in support of Israel at present, particularly the illegal (every nation in the world apart from Israel) occupation of the West Bank). I intend to look into that in more detail.

This last week something has been moving behind the scenes which is highly significant. Palestine has not given up its hope for statehood even if the two state solution is dead. Even if they cannot achieve full member status they still wish to upgrade from ‘entity’ to ‘non-member’ state. But this has been strongly opposed by the US who have written to all member states asking them to refuse such an application.

The basis of the strong objection is stated to be that any application for statehood needs to be negotiated with Israel and not doping so imperil the world. However the actual basis is thought to be that ‘non-member’ status would enable Palestine to have access to the International Criminal Court. Two points worthy of note about this. The US and Israel refuse to subscribe to this Court. The Court is based in Europe not the US where the UN has its headquarters.

What concern the US particularly about this bid for 'non-member' status is that it is being made to the UN General Assembly and there is no veto there. Furthermore Palestine is likely to have substantial support from the many non-aligned nations. This would be seen as a moral victory even though it would not change anything on the ground as such.

If we take a peek behind the objection to allowing Palestinians access top both those lands allocated to them by the rest of the world and international justice we find the massive lobby that seeks t tie the hands of any President. It consists mostly of Evangelical Christians.

The Democrat Party has traditionally attracted 80% of the Jewish vote and while this is significant in swing states it is not the overriding decision maker in America, but the fervent Evangelical vote most certainly is. The Mormon vote is of course significant too, but in the case of the next election this is cancelled out by Christian voters concerned about having a Mormon President. The fact that Romney is financially supported by Israel’s friend and billionaire Sheldon Adelson does not really come into the equation.

Behind the urgency lies an even more curious concept and it is of the ’promised land’. That will need much investigation but suffice to say that if a promise was made to Abraham, he was the Patriarch of both Jews and Moslems and was certainly not Jewish himself. He was in fact by birth an Iraqi and very few of his descendants can call themselves Jewish.

The significance to Evangelicals is the belief (also held by Mormons and Jews) that the Messiah cannot come until a Jewish temple has been built on Temple Mount, currently the home of two most ancient mosques almost as important to Muslims as Mecca and Medina.

That will not happen until Jerusalem and indeed the West Bank has been cleared of the people who have lived there for thousands of years, and been repopulated by immigrants from Europe who call themselves ‘Jews’. So it is essential to be aware of the truth behind this ‘promise’ from God that has mobilised the Evangelical people in the US, who in turn have influenced US policy to such a degree that a world war is now imminent.

This is all about awareness and it seems a relevant place to look into the ancient scriptures that millions believe give Israel the right to rule over an apartheid regime which ignores international law and equality. I would point out that the word 'Semite' actually applies to both the Palestinians and the Israelis and the term anti-Semitic should too. Any objection to injustice in the world should be termed anti-Injustice and not branded with an emotive racial term as seems to happen so often. But in deference to all I wish to look at what this 'God' actually promised and to whom, even though this was written in a book by a scribe over a thousand years later.

There are many peacemakers in the world but like the flying doves they tend to cower in the presence of the many hawks. The hawks have their own God historically. The Hawk God called by the Ancient Egyptians Horus. This one delights in war, hunting and sacrifice but is by no means the God of Creation, the One God or whatever one likes to call the Chief God in our universe. So I also want to take a look at the gods invoked by the religious people involved.

Reve x

reve 03-10-2012 04:25 PM

There is a green hill faraway
 
The biblical narrative relating to this ‘promise’ is slim to put it mildly and also wide in its possible understanding’. The first mention is in Genesis. Abram as he was known then had left Iraq but was childless. He had a vision or dream and interpreted it as his God giving him land for his tribe:



Genesis 15:18-21
New International Version (NIV)
18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[a] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites”

The problem with this is that Abram’s oldest son was called Ishmael by a woman called Hagar. His ‘wife’ Sarah had encouraged the liaison so that the prophesy might be fulfilled but when she had her own son Isaac, she made Abram send the couple out to the desert to die. God was not happy about that and saved them. Abram also had other sons:

“ After the death of Sarah, Abraham took another wife, a concubine named Keturah, who bore him six sons: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah. (Genesis 25:1–6)”

No one can claim with any authority that only his great grandson Judah was the legal heir to the lands of this ‘vision’. In fact it would be ludicrous to do so. Judah is the man from whom the Jews claim descent but even he had eleven brothers. It is not only Judaism that claims Abraham as the Patriarch anyway.

“Abraham in religious traditions
In Islamic and Jewish traditions, Abraham is referred to as "our Father" (Hebrew: Avraham Avinu, Arabic: abeena Ibraheem.
In Jewish and Christian tradition, Abraham is the father of the Israelites through his son Isaac, whose mother was Sarah. His oldest son is Ishmael, whose mother is Hagar, Sarah's Egyptian handmaiden.
In Islamic tradition, Abraham is considered a prophet of Islam, the ancestor of Muhammad, through his son Ishmael, whose mother is Hagar (هاجر).” wikipedia.

Anyone claiming this shaky ‘vision’ written about possibly two thousand years after the event by a Jewish scribe would be on shaky ground if they decided that it meant that these lands belonged to present day Israel.

Israel was the name of one of Abraham’s many grandsins and he also claimed to have a vision giving this land to him. However the Bible tells us that he left this land and went to live in Egypt with his tribe, and there they stayed for 500 years. Hos vision is summed up in this verse:





Genesis 28:13
New International Version (NIV)
13 There above it stood the Lord, and he said: “I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying”

Now the land upon which he was lying was perhaps smaller than the size of a house, certainly less that an encampment. Nevertheless 500 years later a man called Moses left Egypt with a tribe of slaves and after creating havoc in the Canaanite lands, genocide including the wholesale slaughter of men, women and children who happened to be in his way this is what the scribe wrote a thousand years after the alleged event, which no archaeologist has been able top confirm.

Deuteronomy 1:8
New International Version (NIV)
8 See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers—to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob—and to their descendants after them.”

This is certainly not a promise of this land to the Jewish nation and to evict the many families who have lived there for many thousands of years based upon these verses defies belief in a modern world. Obviously it is convenient for some to believe this, but 30% of Americans?


“Descendants of Abraham
Traditional Jewish interpretation, and that of most Christian commentators, define Abraham's descendants as Abraham's seed only through his son Isaac and his grandson Jacob, to the exclusion of Ishmael and Esau. This may however reflect an eisegesis or reconstruction of primary verses based on the later biblical emphasis of Jacob's descendants. The promises given to Abraham happened prior to the birth of Issac and were given to all his offspring signified through the rite of circumcision. Johann Friedrich Karl Keil is less clear, as he states that the covenant is through Isaac, but notes that Ishmael's descendants have held much of that land through time.
Mainstream Jewish tradition regards the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as having been given to all Jews, including proselytes and in turn their descendants.
Wikipedia”

Bear in mind that circumcision is practised by Jews and Muslims alike.

I am not disputing the right of the Jews of Europe to somewhere safe to live. They were given this by UN Charter but it was never intended that it would result in over 4 million paelstinians living in Concentration Camps and Ghettos, denied their own government or statehood, treated like second class citizens or slaves in an Apartheid regime. And certainly they were assured of the West Bank lands and East Jerusalem their capital but these have now been taken from them and 500,000 illegal Israeli settlers have moved in. All based on these verses may I add.

It is so reminiscent of the Anmerican lands being taken from the Native American Indians, treaties broken when convenient and such theft backed up by the US army under ruthless men like Custer. But we are not in the days of the Wild West now.

I am sure that President Obama would like to help the Palestinians but it seems as though he cannot. The Presidency is surrounded by powerful people who want Israel to have more and more territory, and ultimately the little hill in Jerusalem where they wish to build what is called the Third Temple.

What is standing in the way is the Muslim world who also claim a right to these lands and especially to that hill on which Mosques have been sitting for over a thousand years. Can anyone imagine Westminster Abbey being bulldozed down because someone believes God gave that land to the Celts and some obscure Welsh sect wish to build a temple to make sacrifices to the Celtic God. But in the sense of timescales that is exactly what is being proposed.

Next I will look at what was written to give the preposterous idea that God will send his Son to earth only when this happens. But the fact that the world’s policies are dictated by this is extraordinary testament to the power of a very few men who believe this.

At the moment however the biggest threat to this Temple seems to be the Iranian Government and the possibility that one day soon it will have bomb. Because even if the governments of the world stand idly by as the protestors are cleared away, back to their camps and the Mosque is knocked down it is clear that the Muslim government of Iran will not. This is why we are about to have a nuclear war.

Where are the peacemakers? Both sides in this war are obsessive religious fanatics waving their scriptures in the air. Scriptures that have been given an authenticity that would be impossible to a rational mind.

That is something that definitely needs to be investigated. Who wrote these books, when and why should we believe them now?

Reve x

reve 04-10-2012 08:26 AM

The authors
 
So who actually wrote the Bible, particularly Genesis and Exodus. I was brought up ion a vicarage and my childhood was spent in churches and meeting bishops and biblical scholars Although the lessons were read out in Church my father had been trained in then scholarship of the bible and knew very well that ’Moses’ did not write Genesis any more than Adam. In fact by careful work over centuries the biblical scholars decided that there must be two authors of Genesis and they call them the Priestly and the Yahwist. This is because many things are repeated differently, there are two distinct styles, even different names for ‘God’. It is also clear that the books were not written at the supposed time of Adam (around 4000BC), nor Abraham (perhaps 2000 to 1800BC), nor Moses (maybe 1500BC). David and Solomon were around 1000BC and there is the first archaeological evidence for these people, but the books were still not written then. It would seem they were composed about 500-600BC to give some ’history’ for the people who had been enslaved in Iraq and were emigrating from there to what we now call Palestine. These people needed some divine blessing for taking over the land, as did Moses and Joshua and in fact as did modern day Israel and it was written in a book and backdated.

The religious will argue that it was merely the latest version of old oral histories. But Egypt and Iraq had been writing since about 3000BC. Some of genesis is borrowed from their mythology but those two countries had scribes writing about everything that moved then, particularly their invasions of this particular area and failed to notice God awarding Palestine to the Hebrews.

Still it makes no difference to the US Evangelist who believes sincerely that God himself wrote the Bible. Nor to the Rabbis who also believe in fairy tales. And between them they now control US policy that is driving the world to put up with the shame of incarcerating 4 million innocent families in concentration camps because they were living on promised land. As if that were not bad enough any opposition is literally demonised and can be bombed or strangled financially. Some will take satisfaction that Iran’s currency has dropped 80% against the dollar due to sanctions and that people cannot buy food out there. The thinking is that they will overthrow the government and cease to be a threat to Israel. The threat to Israel however is its treatment of the Palestinians and this will never go away if it does not change.

So how do we make a difference. Certainly by being open about the historical promises. By highlighting injustice even if we are demonised and by discouraging any violence be either side. But as ‘Horus’ the hawk god is the God of War who takes genocide in his stride and is served by both sides in this we need to do a bit more. I will come to that later.

If you have a mind to these are two articles, one from wikipedia which discusses what I have outlined although it comes from different sources. Mine is my father’s library and particularly Peakes Commentary to the Bible. The other article is a British Israeli one which shows what they believe against the evidence. This is also what evangelists hold on to. The Mormons have a different take. Their prophet Joseph Smith was an American and he had visions, indeed was given golden tablets by angels which say that a Temple must be built in Jerusalem and another in the US for the Messiah to come back. The next president will either be a Mormon (5th generation elder in fact) or a Christian put in place by the evangelists and will be supporting a Prime Minister in Israel who was put there by the extreme right and the rabbis. God save the Palestinians and protestors.


“Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see it as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
For Jews and Christians alike, the theological importance of Genesis centers on the covenants linking God to his Chosen People and the people to the Promised Land. Christianity has interpreted …..

For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors. Since the 1970s there has been a revolution in scholarship: the Elohist source is now widely regarded as no more than a variation on the Yahwist, while the Priestly source is increasingly seen not as a document but as a body of revisions and expansions to the Yahwist (or "non-Priestly") material. (The Deuteronomistic source does not appear in Genesis).
In composing the Patriarchal history the Yahwist drew on four separate blocks of traditional stories about Abraham, Jacob, Judah and Joseph, combining them with genealogies, itineraries and the "promise" theme to create a unified whole. Similarly, when composing the "primeval history" he drew on Greek and Mesopotamian sources, editing and adding to them to create a unified work that fit his theological agenda. The Yahwistic work was then revised and expanded into the final edition by the authors of the Priestly source.
This leaves the question of when these works were created. Scholars in the first half of the 20th century came to the conclusion that the Yahwist was produced in the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, and the Priestly work in the middle of the 5th century BC (the author was even identified as Ezra), but more recent thinking is that the Yahwist was written either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century, and the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.
As for why the book was created, a theory which has gained considerable interest, although still controversial is "Persian imperial authorisation". This proposes that the Persians, after their conquest of Babylon in 538 BC, agreed to grant Jerusalem a large measure of local autonomy within the empire, but required the local authorities to produce a single law code accepted by the entire community. The two powerful groups making up the community—the priestly families who controlled the Temple and who traced their foundation-myth to Moses and the wilderness wanderings, and the major landowning families who made up the "elders" and who traced their own origins to Abraham, who had "given" them the land—were in conflict over many issues, and each had its own "history of origins", but the Persian promise of greatly increased local autonomy for all provided a powerful incentive to cooperate in producing a single text.
Wikipedia


Who Wrote the Book of Genesis?
By Peter Salemi
Home Page www.british-israel.ca
The biggest misunderstanding among Bible scholars today, is that Moses wrote the book of Genesis. If we look at the entire Bible, you will notice that all of it has been written by eyewitness accounts. Many assume that the book of Genesis was made up of oral traditions. Just a bunch of stories passed on from one generation to the next, or that Moses borrowed from the pagans, the stories of Noah, and creation, and then wrote his own version in the Hebrew Bible. Is the Hebrew Bible a borrowed version of the pagan versions of the flood and creation, or is it the other way around? Is the book of Genesis the ORIGINAL DOCUMENT, and as time when on, and the populations grew, and as man moved away from the center knowledge, the creation accounts got all corrupted, hence we have the pagan accounts of creation from the Babylonians, etc.. and the original document was the book of Genesis?
The views are starting to change believe it or not. Many people are starting to realize that Moses DID NOT plagiarize these accounts of creation, and the flood. In stead there is evidence that Moses took the earlier documents of Adam, Noah, Abraham Enoch Isaac, and Jacob, these documents that were passed on from one generation to the next, and put them together into one book called the BOOK OF GENESIS!
After many excavations in the Middle East, archaeologists have found Ancient writings called "cuneiform" writings that date back all the way to 3500 B.C. Adam was still alive at that time, and so writing could have gone back even farther. So Adam could have composed his EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT OF THE GARDEN OF EDEN!
It may be a surprise to some people, but the reference to writing is found in Genesis 5:1 which says: "This is the book of the generations of Adam." This suggests that the that art of writing was known within the lifetime of Adam, which could make writing as old as the human race itself!
Cuneiform writing became the system used by all civilized countries east of the Mediterranean-Assyrian, Babylonia, Persia, and the Hittites. Cuneiform writing consists of wedge-shape impressions ("cuneia" means "wedge") made in plastic clay. The Hebrew word for "to write" means "to cut in" or "to dig." Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would have used this system of writing.
Although papyrus was the common writing material in Egypt. Cuneiform writing was understood, as the Tell-el-Amarna tablets found in Egypt in 1888 reveal. Among these clay tablets were letters, dated about 1400 B.C., from Palestinian officials to the Egyptian government-all written in Cuneiform.
It is no wonder that God allowed Pharaoh's daughter to raise Moses. He could have easily learned cuneiform writing, so he could easily translate the Hebrew cuneiform tablets of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, and Adam for the Israelites in the wilderness. Even in the book….
http://www.british-israel.ca/Genesis.htm



I will also look at the authorship of the Koran which tradition states was dictated to Muhammed by the angel Gabriel who also announced the birth of baby Jesus and John the Baptist.
Reve x

reve 04-10-2012 10:06 AM

A man who knows
 
Today the Israeli media are telling us how outdated the Iranian military are - they use the Phantoms that Israel had in the Yom Kippur War. They are gearing up for a strike which they are sure will be successful. Do we think Iranian families should be targeted? The fall out of strikes on nuclear facilities will dwarf Chernobyl and the million who have since died across Europe with thyroid cancer. Sheep in Wales were poisoned. I was in London and got wet that night - my thyroid came out ten years later. Obviously the figures are impossible to determine but who is trying to find a peaceful solution?


“Khosrow Semnani studied in Iran and England before earning dual bachelor degrees in chemistry and physics from Westminster College in 1972. He later earned a master’s in engineering administration from the University of Utah, while working in Utah’s copper mining and electrochemical manufacturing industries. His education and work experience gave him the foundation to design, license, and develop, a first of its kind in the US, commercial low-level nuclear waste processing and disposal facility, Envirocare of Utah. In 2005, when Khosrow sold Envirocare to what is now Energy Solutions, he was awarded an honorary doctorate of science degree from Southern Utah University for his outstanding work in the field of nuclear waste management.
In 1993, Khosrow and his wife created the Semnani Family Foundation as an international foundation committed to helping solve some of the most troubling women and children’s global health and education issues. In 2006, the Semnani Family Foundation established and became the major source of funding for the development of a free medical clinic, the Maliheh Free Clinic, in South Salt Lake, Utah. The Semnani Foundation also supports vaccination and clean water projects in Africa and beyond, relief efforts to world-wide disasters, and philanthropic ventures by church and mosque organizations. Since 1998, the Foundation has been working with the BYU Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies in translating ancient Persian literature into English.
Khosrow is also passionate about promoting democracy in Iran and has served as both vice chair and chairman of the board of trustees for Encyclopedia Iranica at Columbia University”
http://www.westminstercollege.edu/al...4&detail=13955

“……Now a new report is trying to answer that question.

It lists the Isfahan uranium-conversion facility -- which contains an estimated 371 metric tons of uranium hexafluoride -- as one of the four Iranian sites likely to be targeted if Israel or the United States were to decide to take military action in an effort to delay or cripple Iran's nuclear program.

The University of Utah's Hinckley Institute of Politics and the NGO Omid for Iran teamed up to produce a study that concludes that a military strike on the facility could have tragic consequences for Maryam and thousands of other residents of her centrally located city, which has a population of 2 million.

It's unlikely that Maryam would die as an immediate result of such a bomb attack. But she could be among the estimated up-to-70,000 people who would be killed or injured after being exposed to toxic plumes released as the result of such strikes. They would reach the city within an hour.

Such a scenario would mean that the people of Isfahan could experience a catastrophe similar to the gas leak in Bhopal or the nuclear meltdown at Chornobyl, says Khosrow Semnani, the author of the report, which is titled, "The Ayatollah's Nuclear Gamble."

"People's skin could be burnt [when coming in contact with the plumes], they could become blind, their lung could be destroyed, their kidneys could be damaged, and in the future they could face other health problems such as skin cancer and [other forms] of cancer," Semnani says.

The report analyzed the impact of preemptive conventional strikes on four key nuclear sites: Isfahan's uranium conversion facility; Natanz's fuel-enrichment plant; Arak's heavy-water plant; and Bushehr's nuclear power plant.

Workers at those sites -- who include scientists, workers, support staff, and soldiers -- would be among the first victims of a bombing campaign. The report estimates that the casualty rate at the sites would be close to 100 percent.

"According to our estimates, the number of casualties of the bombing of the four sites would be about 5,000 people," Semnani says. "If the bombing would include more than those four sites, then the immediate casualty [count] would be up to 10,000 people."

The report warns that the grim scenario could be magnified by the lack of readiness on the part of Iranian authorities, who have a poor record of disaster management and who lack the capacity to handle deadly radioactive fallout in the aftermath of a strike on its nuclear sites.

Afshin Molavi, an Iran expert and a senior fellow at the New America Foundation, says the study fills a gaping vacuum in Western discussions about military strikes on Iran, which often ignore the human cost of such actions.

"People talk very callously about the prospect of military strikes, and they frame it in the geopolitical fallout, the geo-economic fallout, what will happen to the oil price and all of these issues. But nobody has ever talked about the humanitarian consequences of a military strike on Iran," Molavi says. "Those humanitarian consequences are grave, so I think this report fills a very important vacuum. It needs to be read by policy makers at the highest levels in Western governments; it needs to be read in Israel; it needs to be read all over the world."

Greg Thielman, a former senior U.S. intelligence official and an expert with the Arms Control Association, says the study is a worthwhile exploration that gives color to "a very dry and bloodless discussion of what attacking Iran would be."

He does say, however, that he doesn't think the United States or Israel would attack Bushehr, because it's not of critical concern to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) -- the UN nuclear watchdog that has access to the site.

"I would note also that it is against the Geneva Convention to attack civilian nuclear power plants," Thielman says, "and that's another reason why I think the U.S. and Israel would think twice about it, because it is clearly contrary to international law to do that."

David Albright, a former UN weapons inspector and the president of the Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) in Washington, says he doesn't believe that a military attack on Bushehr is likely.

He says the number of casualties would depend on how the attacks are planned and conducted: "If they attack all the [conversion lines] -- you have six in Isfahan and you'd expect more -- they may not attack and they choose to cripple the site without trying to destroy the uranium hexafluoride."

The human cost of a strike on Iran's nuclear facilities hasn't been ignored by Western analysts alone. It's also not a topic of discussion in Iran, where the state media largely focus on how the country would retaliate in case of attack.

"Ninety-nine percent of these people are not even aware of the horrifying scenario" that could await them, Semnani says.”

http://www.rferl.org/content/study-c.../24727096.html

Hush is the word. How can we make as difference? Get the BBC and press to talk about the obvious. Ynet today are saying not only are the Iranians unable to defend themselves but they are using Hamas, Hezbollah and the Islamic Jihad ‘unpunished’. This is how Iran attacks Israel in other words. We can expect massive propaganda from the press in the coming months because that is how it works, but they will ignore the Palestinains in the camps, the illegal settlers ion their land and any protest will be ‘Iranian’.

We live in a world tht will swallow this and do not learn from history, for example the David Kelly incident. The nuclear inspector who dared to contradict Bush and Blair about the non existent nuclear warheads in Iraq and ‘committed suicide‘. We can expect more of that. All political parties in the US and UK will tow the line again. Is it pointless to resist. Iran has a cruel repressive regime after all. But they have a wonderful people, so do the Palestinians, so do the Israelis, Americans and British. How on earth did we end up ion this crazy situation?

Ask the hawks and their God of War Horus (often depicted as a baby on his mother’s knee like Jesus). They need this war and their livelihoods depend on it. They can eat families for breakfast, and of course the odd protestor. The solution that I favour is taking this matter up directly with Horus. Am I crazy? Well I cannot count the billions who believe in fairy tales in this world, but mine is no fairy tale. It is the real story of every war since 3,500 BC when something changed in this world and a new type of government arose which created armies and a blood lust that has survived untroubled ever since. This Forum is one of the very few places in this world that is looking for the wake up call in a non violent way.

Reve x

reve 04-10-2012 10:44 AM

The debate
 
Predictably Mitt Romney clouted Obama in the debate last night. If he gets in it will be with a huge debt to Israel and his willingness to bomb Iran as of now. If they had debated the real issues it might have helped but the Concentration Camps with 4 million Palestinians locked up for over 40 years is a no go zone, even though it is the main story in the world and the election. That is the story that must be hidden from the voters at all costs. Haaretz is the wonderful Israeli newspaper (the oldest in the country) that highlights all that is wrong there, with writers like the brilliant Israeli journalist Amira Hass who actually lives with the Palestinians and is not afraid to write the truth. Unfortunately only 5% buy this paper there and have no idea.

"Sep 30 Haaretz: Though Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu publicly denies having any preference as to who wins the upcoming U.S. presidential election, it's clear he is rooting for Republican Mitt Romney. The two see eye to eye on the Middle East, and Romney in the White House would make life easier for Netanyahu, assuming he is reelected next year."

"Oct 3 Haaretz:
How kabbala shaped Mormon faith

In his effort to establish 'Zion on American soil,' the founder of Mormonism was deeply influenced by the seminal Jewish mystical work, not to mention the polygamy practiced by the Patriarchs.

By Tomer Persico| 09:43 03.10.12 |

Mormonism is a subject of fascination to Americans and the rest of the world. Its unusual sets of beliefs were widely discussed and studied long before U.S. presidential candidate Mitt Romney strode onto the national stage. Less well known and studied is the way the doctrine is shot through with kabbalistic beliefs."

There is another article on this article and it is interesting how the two faiths have interwoven.

"haaretz: But the similarities don't end with ideology: The two also have many donors in common. In fact, a Haaretz investigation found that 19 of Netanyahu's wealthiest American donors, each of whom gave thousands of dollars to his campaign to defeat Moshe Feiglin in January's Likud party leadership primary, have also given to Romney, the Republican Party, and/or other Republican candidates.

Surprisingly, Netanyahu's donor list doesn't include a single Democrat - a fact that indicates just how far removed he is from those American Jews who lean Democratic.

Altogether, Netanyahu received NIS 1,249,022 from 46 people for his primary campaign, an average of NIS 26,574 per person. By law, each donor's name and address must be reported to the state comptroller, and it turns out that 37 of these donors were American"

"Sep14 Haaretz: Around 80 percent of both Israelis and Palestinians say that an Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear facilities would ignite a major regional war, a joint Israeli-Palestinian survey indicated on Thursday, adding that around 70 percent of respondents say they believe the chances of establishing a Palestinian state in the next five years were practically nonexistent".

Today they have an interesting article on Romney's faith which Obama chooses to respect but which may well be his undoing.

" Hermetic and Kabbalistic influences on Joseph Smith?
VARIOUS ESOTERICA, ancient, medieval, and modern, are invoked in this Haaretz article by Tomer Persico as influences on Joseph Smith: How kabbala shaped Mormon faith. In his effort to establish 'Zion on American soil,' the founder of Mormonism was deeply influenced by the seminal Jewish mystical work, not to mention the polygamy practiced by the Patriarchs.

...As a curious teenager, Joseph Smith was able to read a fair share of Western esoteric literature at his neighbor's homes or in different public libraries.

The esoteric literature of the period included the legacy of the Renaissance, Hermetism, the kabbala, Neoplatonism, alchemy, astrology and Magianism.

Hermitism was an esoteric practice based on ancient texts that were apparently written by a god/king/prophet/ master sorcerer named Hermes Trismegistus. This Hermes was, apparently, a contemporary of Moses and revealed to humanity the secrets of the universe at the exact same time that Moses gave the Torah to the Israelites. The historical source for the more ancient parts of the hermetic corpus is found in the early centuries of the Common Era, in Greco-Egyptian Alexandria, and therefore contains a mixture of Greek and Egyptian myths.

...But unlike traditional rabbinic Judaism, the Christians believed that the kabbala was also given to the Israelite priests. The inclusion of the ancient Israelite priests was likely due to every story about the Temple in Jerusalem being seen by Christians as having some esoteric and mystical value (this was also true for the Freemasons, another movement that flowered around the same time). ....

in the Book of Nephi, the first volume of the Book of Mormon. After the first verse in which the narrator presents himself, the second verse states: “I will make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.” The Jews were a muse to Joseph Smith. The use of “the language of the Egyptians” ties the Book of Mormon to the Hermetica.
http://paleojudaica.blogspot.co.uk/

It is a complex and deep rooted philosophy sitting behind the more visible face of both religions but enough to enable the congregations to approve a war so that they can build yet another temple? Any Messiah appearing in such a Temple will be a follower of Horus God of War, not a peacemaker I assure you. And anyone who says we need a big nuclear conflict so that half a million illegal settlers can sleep safe and sound is completely mad.

reve x

reve 04-10-2012 01:11 PM

Not hopeless
 
Well it seems impossible to have justice and peace in this world. 80% of the US fervent believers in Jesus are by definition mostly believers of the Promise of land to Israel and could not give a damn for the displaced Palestinians. A media largely controlled by men who support Israel, whether they believe this or not, contribute to this. Huge lobbies of armament manufacturers leaning on governments insist on it. The Islamics who would cut your head off if you denied Mohammed’s version of events want a war too. It is a huge ‘Gordian’ knot that seems impossible to untangle. Here of course we post sanity to each other but it does not address the issue above as they are certainly not all coming here and accepting our versions. What to do?

I am at the age when my father a priest was thinking about retirement after a lifetime of preaching. Although I do not have that experience behind me I have been a practising clairvoyant for many years. I do not expect others to believe I am clairvoyant but many who have met me do and I have had conversations on the spiritual worlds and beliefs with a huge number of people. I have also had such conversations in my non-clairvoyant day jobs, with older people particularly. From working and living with many ethnicities in Islington, Hackney and Tottenham in London (where 90 languages are spoken)I have gained a fair understanding and first hand knowledge of them too.

What this has shown me is the Achilles heal of these religious zealots. I do not deny that many male Moslems believe every word they are told about Mohammed by their imans. The fact that Mohammed had encountered a Christian monk called Bahira as a child and met the Bible at that age is ignored. But it is a fact that when the ange; Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammed he included much of what was in the Christian and Jewish Bibles along with some Arabian folklore. And very little else. Mohammed already knew what he was writing, it did not come out of thin air.

I have met many Moslem wives who shrug their shoulders about the ardent beliefs of their husbands as they have little choice but to accept them. I have met some Moslem women who are fervent believers too, mostly young. But many of them do not believe even if they will never say so publicly in their communities. They just get on with life while their husbands lap up the propaganda fed to them.

Christians are no different. I have hardly met one, either a follower or a preacher who ‘believes’ what is written. Practically none who accept the version of the Garden of Eden, nor the physical resurrection of Jesus. They do not like to say so openly but that is what they feel within. If angels are appearing to some, where are they and why should we believe them? Most Christians feel their religion is better that the others and favours peaceful solutions, even the paying of tax. They are intensely suspicious of the more fanatic minds in any religions. Many priests get paid for towing and preaching the line but even the Pope and his Vatican scholars know most of the New Testament is simply not true, was written by people who never met 'Jesus', but objected to Roman rule, and the Old Testament a complete myth. Although a few years ago a cardinal accepted this on TV, he mentioned that it would be impossible to announce this to believers as all hell would break loose at the centuries of deception. But they know 'Jesus' is a spiritual ‘teacher’ and was never a physical man.

Rabbis know too but are more likely to have invested so heavily in belief that what they ‘know’ takes a lower place at the table. They are not meeting angels either and are aware of how the Scriptures came together but nevertheless feel they were divinely inspired and well intentioned. When the Hasidic Jews tell stories of angels coming to their devout ‘ravs’ they mean well too but the tales are hardly convincing to the modern mind. There is indeed a spiritual world and I accept that and even have great experience of it, but the religious world has been hijacked by fairy tales of doubtful authenticity.

To say that the world will be relieved if the truth ever comes out is no understatement. Almost everyone in their heart has had enough of pretending to believe something that is completely unbelievable. It is no different to Santa Claus. If we indoctrinate our children and then explain as they get older what fairy tales are really about we can do the same for these quasi and convenient religions. This is what the Revelation or Rapture is really about.

Much more difficult are the cynical men (almost always men) making money from their armament industries, working for multi-national corporations,or the armies and intelligence services serving Prime Ministers and Presidents, who are driven by personal desire for power. They may well seek to save humanity and consider themselves saviours but they do not believe. They are the Emperors wearing no clothes and it really only takes one voice in this world to get all to agree. The Pope could do it. The Chief Rabbi too. With the Muslim it is more difficult but if the others go first they will follow, their wives will come and leave them feeling rather isolated.

We must not give up opening eyes because that is all it takes. As the ice begins to melt the land it has been hiding so long starts to appear and the process speeds up. But we must pick our leraders with a bit more discernment. If we choose men who will stand up and preach fairy tales to us they really are not fit for the job in the 21st century are they. But as with all addiction the world needs a replacement for its illusion and really that is where the spiritual ones come in. There is a spiritual side to us, there are spirits and souls and an after life. Every culture will tell you that. But the great fall of the angels was their refusal to serve humanity. We really cannot serve a God of War any more if we can control our population better. That is what he is for, just like the wolves and hawks in nature. If we breed like rabbits we will be culled like rabbits. Unfortunately the next major cull will be nuclear and finish off our species for good, as has happened so often in Earth’s history. It is tragic as the ordinary man and woman and child have so much goodness and talent, but the education we give them leads them to violence and procreation without any real conscience. It is all about personal greed.

Reve x

king triad 04-10-2012 01:26 PM

Nice thread..let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me...

ravenblack 04-10-2012 02:04 PM

Raven black
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by king triad (Post 1061068780)
Nice thread..let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me...


Yes, please God, let there be peace on Earth and let it begin with me.

reve 04-10-2012 05:31 PM

A voice silenced?
 
I mentioned Haaretz above. This is a most inconvenient newspaper at this time as it tries to find just, equitable and peaceful solutions and has a nasty habit of printing the truth. Enter a billionaire with a solution. Sheldon Adelson, the US Casino owner and Romney and Netayahu's backer, has started printing a free rightwing newspaper in Israel which is slaughtering the competition. All things are fair in love and war but the peacemakers always seem to be hard up and the hawks always seem to have loads of cash. I cannot copy the article in the Financial Times today for copyright reasons but take a look:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/02b0684e-0...#axzz28LrsUfzy

The liberal Haaretz is in deep financial trouble and today was unable to print for the first time in many years. Meanwhile a right wing rag is in similar trouble and is now in the hands of a small publisher, even more right wing, who caters for the settler community on the West Bank. He will be sacking most of the staff. Such is the battle for hearts and minds.

reve x

reve 05-10-2012 07:12 AM

The difficult bit
 
is making peace with people who have cheated and hurt you for generations in many cases. People who are bad through and through. The easy bit is all you have to do is stop the wars. You do not have to like them. Making peace is not to do with justice or fairness, that is where everyone gets confused.

reve x

reve 05-10-2012 07:34 AM

The next generation
 
We have to look at the next generation of leaders to see if peacemaking is possible. Here is one who would like to deadly the war which is a start. He also sees that the root of the problem is religion, although he does not see that his own religion is also part of the problem. Never mind it is a start. This is in today‘s Jerusalem Post:

“Yesh Atid leader Yair Lapid started his political campaign for the next Knesset this week by accusing Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu of trying to drag the United States into war with Iran.
In his first English interview since entering politics – which will be published in full in The Jerusalem Post’s Simhat Torah supplement, Lapid said Netanyahu made mistakes by instigating a conflict with the US administration, betting that Republican candidate Mitt Romney would win the election, and threatening Iran with military action rather than focusing on intensifying sanctions.
Related:
Gates: No blank check from US to Israel on Iran
Kissinger: War with Iran must be a US decision
“Netanyahu has created a situation in which it became an Israel-Iran problem and not a world-Iran problem,” Lapid said.
“There is only one way to end the Iranian nuclear threat: The fall of the ayatollahs. An Israeli strike would only delay the Iranian nuclear problem. It would enable the Iranians to say we have been attacked by a nuclear country and now we have no choice but to develop nuclear weapons. The way to make the ayatollahs fall is to strengthen the sanctions

Lapid said Netanyahu was wrong to try to force the US to set deadlines for Iran.
“It is hubris to give an ultimatum to the US,” Lapid said.
“People tend to forget that the plane Netanyahu is sending to bomb Iran is an American plane. He thinks he can drag America to do what it doesn’t want to do. He is leading Israel to war too soon, before it’s necessary. Like Netanyahu, I think that if we came to the point of no return, Israel would have to bomb, but there is still a lot left to do to avoid that.”
Asked how he could serve as a minister under Netanyahu when he is so critical of him, he said: “What kind of politician would I be if I am silent when I see things that matter that bother me. On the Iranian issue, he did a great job by putting it on the world’s table, but then he took it off the world’s table and made it an Israeli issue. It’s the same with economy: He got it on track, then made mistakes.”
Lapid also called upon the US administration to release Israeli agent Jonathan Pollard, who is serving his 27th year of a life sentence.
“It’s about time to release him,” he said.
“The US is being unnecessarily harsh on someone sick and getting old. All the spies from the Cold War were released years ago even though they spied for an enemy. It’s time to release someone who spied for a friend”
Jerusalem Post
http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/N...aspx?id=286738

Who is this man?


Biography
He is the son of journalist and politician Yosef "Tommy" Lapid and author Shulamit Lapid. He is married to journalist Lihi Lapid, whom he met while on IDF reserve duty.
Lapid was born in Tel Aviv, and started his journalism career as a military correspondent for the IDF's weekly magazine, Ba-Mahane ("In the Camp"), and writing for the mainstream daily newspaper, Maariv. In 1988, he was appointed editor of the Tel Aviv local newspaper published by the Yedioth Ahronoth group. In 1991, he began writing a weekly column in a nationwide newspaper's weekend supplement, at first for Maariv and later on for its competitor, Yedioth Ahronoth.
Lapid's career then expanded to include broadcast journalism. In 1994, he began hosting the Friday evening main interview program on Israel TV's Channel 1, and in that same year had an acting role in an Israeli film, “The Singing of The Siren.” He hosted a talk show on TV's Channel 3, and since 1999 has hosted a talk show on Channel 2. He has published 7 books and wrote a drama series called “War Room” that was aired on Channel 2 in 2004.
In 2005, he was voted the 36th-greatest Israeli of all time, in a poll by the Israeli news website Ynet to determine whom the general public considered the 200 Greatest Israelis.
As of January 2008 Lapid was the host of Ulpan Shishi, the Friday night news-magazine of Channel 2. In the same year his first play, The Right Age for Love went on-stage in the Cameri Theater.
On 8 January 2012 Lapid announced that he is leaving his journalism career in order to enter politics. On 30 April 2012 Lapid formally registered his party, "Yesh Atid" (Hebrew: יש עתיד‎, lit. "There's a Future"). The move was aimed to coincide with the general expectation in Israel for early elections to be held in the early fall of 2012. However, a few days after Yesh Atid's registration, Israeli prime minister Benjamin....
Wikipedia

If either Obama or Romney started talking ‘peace’ I am sure they would be surprised at the reaction. It would help if they announced that US policy should not be decided by religions which are thousands of years old and bigoted. The hippies did a good job stopping Vietnam and that is what we need. Young people putting flowers back in the rifle barrels. What we have got is young people being brainwashed by old people and more extreme than their teachers.

Reve x

reve 05-10-2012 12:20 PM

Population
 
Everybody knows that over population is what will kill us because there are no efforts to control it and religions are dead set against any. China had a programme of one child per family which should have halved the population but now face a problem - a shortage of young people to support the ageing population who are now living longer. It is happening all over the western world too and perhaps if the younger people knew what was in store they would support a cull of people over retirement age. We do not want a Herod or Pharaoh to kill our babies but it is quite unnecessary. Longer and healthier lives are a great benefit and many species have them - crocodiles for example can live to 400 years. My parrot is 60 and can expect to live to 100. But if species over breed it does not happen as they fight for the available food.

War had traditionally taken out the young men. The First World War resulted in more widows and spinsters than we can imagine now. It might have been the right time to support polygamy - the sharing of husbands but had that been the case we would be in an even worse situation.

This year' crops have failed acropss the planet particularly where they are most important - the US grain belt for example. Starvation will surely follow and this may be Nature's way of balancing things, but it is cruel and targets the poor in our commercial world. Still we are faced with a curious situation.

In the UK having children is rewarded. Couples get time off, child benefit, tax credits, paid child care, bigger houses, and if infertile the NHS will help out with fertility clinics. Most parents aspire to be grandparents and encourage their children to breed. As a worker in the social world I realised long ago how many single women now choose to have children rather than work. there is no longer a social stigma to inhibit this. That is possibly the only route to free housing and benefits. Again Nature may be helping out by suggesting gay relationships more than at any time in history, but now gay couples want children too unsurprisingly.

It is strange to have government policy to increase the population, and religous policy to ban contraception and abortion when we are about to be unable to feed half the world. And war seems to be the official policy of both. This war will take out many youing men before they procreate, that is usually the case. But it will also destroy civilian populations.

It is all very well to get upset by the possibility of manufactured viruses, and draconian policies to cut numbers but what alternative is there when almost everyone reserves the right to have a family, and a big one so their children have siblings.

In fact the Tibetans have a better alternative as they are one of the few cultures to share wives. In India it has been the custom to do anything to avoid having daughters and choosing the sex of a baby may be an answer but a distasteful one.

Polygamy is legal in Islam. In theory if one man has four wives, there will be three men without a wife, but it will do nothing to control population. Cattle breeders increase herds with just one bull. So is there an answer?

Yes! India led the way in the 60's by offering transistor radios to men undergoing vasectomies. It is a small cheap snip of an operation, no riskier than a tooth extraction and does not inhibit sex lives. It has now been shown not to have long term health risks. Why should women take toxic drugs or undertake major life saving operations to achieve the same result? Abstinence is unlikely to happen. I say this as a man who had a vasectomy aged 21, to the horror of all then. I would see compulsory vasectomy as a much preferable alternative to the draft. That is what happened in the US during the Vietnam War and Europe during both world wars. Young men sent to almost certain death or major injury. Vasectomy is probably the only acceptable humane solution to the problem for the peacemakers. But religion abhors it. May I say all the women I have known loved it and it is reversible.

Religion is out of date. At one time the world had a tiny population and was a vast resource. Now it is not. Times change but keeping to ancient religions does not allow us to change with the times. It governs us through our Parliaments and Churches and is the most powerful of all lobbies. and although Christianity preaches peace, it has one of the bloodiest and most warlike histories of all. Unfortunately the example of Mohammed is bloody too. He led an army that killed any who did not adhere to hid new religion. He took women prisoner and gave them as slaves to his men, or kept them himself. It is a great religion for men as the Taliban show. The answer is to empower the women. I knew a lovely Moslem woman who had children. One day she was distraught and it was only when her husband confided to me that he intended to take another wife that I understood. He wanted more children, but he also wanted more women. Most women in Islam would like better treatment and there is the possibility of change, not in men who are bribed to be so chauvenist.

Still almost everyone in the world wopuld disagree

reve x

reverendsquid 05-10-2012 08:16 PM

I remember watching something (may have been Zeitgeist) that said there is actually a reasonable level of food in the world, but it's very unfairly distributed. I'm not invalidating your argument, population
control is a good idea, but if that's true then better distribution could go a long way towards solving some of the problems. If everyone was reasonable and not greedy. Which they aren't. Oh well.

I read something else that argued against pollution control in developing countries, as they need to increase their financial stability and can't afford first world technology to do this. I'd be interested in opinions about this, as I think it's a hugely difficult question. Better finances mean (hopefully) better living conditions for the citizens of the countries in question, but adversely affects the environment for everyone. But do we have the right to stop other people doing what we did during the industrial revolution, when we have everything and they have sod all?

reve 05-10-2012 09:20 PM

The key
 
There is enough food and fuel for an ascetic world that lived communally reverend. How nice to see you here. And the others who want peace on earth starting with us.

This is so hard to explain. Do you ever find that>? Like a dream which on waking makes no sense. Or something you can see but simply cannot put to words. But I will try.

The material man is missing something so is what is called the spirit or angel. They both live in the same space and whatever one does affects the other. The Ancient Egyptians used to put the relationship in terms of the one being penniless and the other vastly wealthy. There were all sorts of ideas put forward over the ensuing cultures and in the modern world aliens is one of them. If you want to rule the planet you would have to rule both worlds as the one can undermine the other with impunity.

That may seem nonsense. We hate the corporations with no conscience, but ethics are part of a higher world. However ethics alone achieve nothing. Something causes wars which is outside our reach. They do not make sense. A million men fight a million men over some matter that none of them are responsible for. The generals do what they are told.

Isn’t it strange how often one man seems to cause a massive war. In history we need look no further than Alexander, Genghis Khan, Julius Caesar, the Kaiser. If it were true that one man decided to have a war it would be very strange. But we like to see it that Hitler invaded Poland, Saddam invaded Kuwait etc. However one man does not really make a war for each generation. Obviously there is some truth in that but it is an occult truth. In reality what I call the God of War is making the moves, spreading a reign of terror and the people around do what they are told. And this one inhabits somebody to do it. It takes tow to have a war anyway, someone needs to be quite the opposite to fight back. Hannibal or Churchill, Stalin or Mao. Good and bad are not so much the point as cause and effect perhaps. All war is bad. Look at Vietnam - kids love to holiday there now. But what a war they had to stop Communism taking over the world just a few decades ago. And that is why the world is full of nuclear bombs itching to be used.

If you were an alien that lived in the human unconscious you would only worry about over population and mass starvation if it endangered your home base. Extinction would be your main worry. Having a big war would simply allow life to carry on a bit longer. In fact there is an angel said to be in charge of plagues - Raphael. That is another way of playing for time. Plague and the Black Death, the 20th century Influenza, Malaria, Pox - all these have devastated populations. If one is subdued another pops up.

We deal with the diseases not the ‘angel’ in charge. And we fight the wars, not the war monger. If we did deal with the real source of the problem we would have a better understanding but inevitably would have to compromise because it is so clear we cannot go on like this. Massive families, everyone wanting a car to drive all over the place for no very good reason. Rushing off to work in insurance offices or plastic toy duck factories. Got to get there by 9 when everyone else is travelling. All meaningless - except the few producing food and essential services. A few hundred kitchens in every street, and boilers heating unused rooms. We don’t try to be efficient at all - we could have one kitchen and one bus in each street if we were. One lit room for reading, one big TV. But we don’t like that.

The problem with the next war is that it is not like the others. This one will make uninhabitable vast swathes of land. It will poison the seas and nature itself. It will be an endless cycle of revenge with no one able to stop it. We all know that but let it go on. We hear the rhetoric, the blame and anger over small things. What will it be like when it is over big things. When a million US citizens are killed. A million Moslems, a million Chinese. Can you really imagine them sitting down to chat to each other after that. Not till every nuke has been fired. There are many threads about this and the warnings.

So why does it head relentlessly over the cliff. What I see is that there is a war between the human and its spirit. The human once lived happily with it - but had an ascetic lifestyle. It was not greedy to the point of obesity. People worked the land harmoniously, not with poisons called fertilizer, pesticide, genetic modification, herbicide which are destroying species after species. The home base of the spirits is threatened as never before and they are taking drastic action to send the human back to the drawing board. Not only does the material man not speak to them he would not know how. His religions are material too, vast corporations designed to rubber stamp his policies.

But what is so bad is that most people are nice. They do not have much choice. To eat they need that plastic duck factory job, a car to get there on time, a flat with electricity. They do not deserve to die and it is the innocents who will die. They are controlled by vast corporations that have no soul. These are monsters that we have made. Originally we called them Limited Companies. But what they are now are unlimited exploitation. They are owned by other corporations and pension funds. They are driven to make profits more or less at any cost. If they get into trouble they are soon replaced by competitors. They make fertilizer, drugs we don’t need, plastic ducks we don’t need, cookers for every home, they make adverts selling us things we don’t need and you do not want to get on the wrong side of them. They control our politicians and governments, and our media. They make bombs and guns and planes to deliver them. They dig up the planet and have made a patch of floating garbage in the pacific the size of Texas and growing. No one will clean it up as it is too expensive and what will you do with it. They will kill every fish in the sea if they can.

Sometimes there is a face that goes with them. Like Hitler and his war there will be some mogul and his corporation, but they are replaceable. They are the Beast in revelations with many heads. One CEO goes another rears his head. It seems as though it is all out of control. Who can change anything. If a President tries he will go or be shot.

But there is a ‘key’. It is not known but all would like to know what it is. To sort this out man, woman and their spirits need to work together. The problem is that spirits do not trust men and men do not trust them. They cannot speak to each other and it is a bit late. The only ones who can do this are the enlightened souls, and there are only a handful of them alive at any time. But they can do nothing without the permission of our leaders who really do need to sit down and decide where they are going on this out of control train ride. Meanwhile the God of War is about to do what he is made to do, end us all, as they cannot see an alternative. This is why I say we need to speak to him and have a plan to offer. Friendly population control and an end to limited companies would be the start. But we need to make big changes and religions are the corporations that will not allow this.

Reve x

reve 07-10-2012 10:22 AM

Peacemakers at work today
 
There are plenty off reasons to worry as Turkey and Syria look to start a war, Britain declares war on the poor and absolves the rich of any likelihood of contributing to the deficit etc. ‘War’ takes many forms. Here a some very important reasons to be cheerful. The peacemakers in our world are hard at work.

The Philippine government has reached a framework peace agreement with the country's largest Muslim rebel group, President Benigno Aquino says.
The deal follows long negotiations with the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) to end a 40-year conflict that has cost more than 120,000 lives.
It provides for a new autonomous region in the south, where Muslims are a majority in a mainly Catholic country.
The MILF is "very happy" with the deal, a spokesman was quoted as saying.
The agreement ….
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19860907


Thousands of Pakistanis, joined by U.S. anti-war activists, headed Sunday morning toward Pakistan's volatile tribal region to protest American drone strikes despite threats from the Taliban and indications they might not make it to their destination, local media reported.
The rally headed by former cricket star turned politician Imran Khan is designed to throw a spotlight on the drone attacks, which many Pakistanis oppose because they say the strikes violate their sovereignty and kill civilians
http://abcnews.go.com/International/...s-off-17412632

And here on the brilliant Haaretz a protest at man’s inhumanity to man, or if you like some Israelis’ inhumanity to some Palestinians. Thank heavens some stand up there where the coming war is centred.


The documentary that should make every decent Israeli ashamed
No moments of reprieve in the probing documentary by Emad Burnat and Guy Davidi, "5 Broken Cameras," which chronicles the struggle in the West Bank Palestinian village of Bil'in. By Gideon Levy| 10:40 05.10.12

The soldiers arrive in the dead of night. They kick, they smash, they destroy. They break in, rudely awakening an entire house and its inhabitants, including children and babies. One officer pulls out a detailed document and declares: "This house is declared a 'closed military zone.'" He reads the order - in Hebrew and in a loud voice - to the sleep-dazed, pajama-clad family.
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/twili...emium-1.468409

But there is another interesting find in Haaretz and it is the connection between there war heroes Joshua and Samson and the ‘sun god’. Not the God of the Hebrews. It is quite curious but of course the modern interpretation of an ancient religion is more political than truthful.

Samson follows the sun to Galilee
Local archaeologists have unearthed some seemingly out-of-place depictions of the sun god Helios in the mosaic floors of ancient synagogues. Can this be attributed to a link between the pagan god, the biblical hero Samson, and Joshua, who led the Israelites into the Promised Land?
By Elchanan Reiner and David Amit|

In the winter of 1929, a team from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem headed by Eleazar Lipa Sukenik unearthed the ancient synagogue in Beit Alfa, with its mosaic floor. The discovery of the mosaic caused great excitement among the Jewish populace of the Land of Israel and something of a sensation among experts, Jewish studies scholars in particular, which still reverberates.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/...emium-1.468506

For those who do not know the sun god Helios here is a bit from wikipedia. It looks to me as though his child is about to set the earth on fire again. Helios is not the chied god, he is a Titan.


The best known story involving Helios is that of his son Phaëton, who attempted to drive his father's chariot but lost control and set the earth on fire.
Greek deities
series
Primordial deities
Olympians
Aquatic deities
Chthonic deities
Personified concepts
Other deities
Titans
The Twelve Titans:
Oceanus and Tethys,
Hyperion and Theia,
Coeus and Phoebe,
Cronus and Rhea,
Mnemosyne, Themis,
Crius, Iapetus
Children of Oceanus:
Oceanids, Potamoi, Calypso
Children of Hyperion:
Helios, Selene, Eos
Daughters of Coeus:
Leto and Asteria
Sons of Iapetus:
Atlas, Prometheus,
Epimetheus, Menoetius
Sons of Crius:
Astraeus, Pallas, Perses
Sons and daughters of Cronus and Rhea:
Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Hades, Hestia
v
t
e

Helios was sometimes characterized with the epithet Helios Panoptes ("the all-seeing"). In the story told in the hall of Alcinous in the Odyssey (viii.300ff), Aphrodite, the consort of Hephaestus, secretly beds Ares, but all-seeing Helios spies on them and tells Hephaestus, who ensnares the two lovers in nets invisibly fine, to punish them.
In the Odyssey, Odysseus and his surviving crew land on Thrinacia, an island sacred to the sun god, whom Circe names Hyperion rather than Helios. There, the sacred red cattle of the Sun were kept:
You will now come to the Thrinacian island, and here you will see many herds of cattle and flocks of sheep belonging to the sun-god. There will be seven herds of cattle and seven flocks of sheep, with fifty heads in each flock. They do not breed, nor do they become fewer in number, and they are tended by the goddesses Phaethusa and Lampetia, who are children of the sun-god Hyperion by Neaera. Their mother when she had borne them and had done suckling them sent them to the Thrinacian island, which was a long way off, to live there and look after their father's flocks and herds.
Though Odysseus warns his men, when supplies run short they impiously kill and eat some of the cattle of the Sun. The guardians of the island, Helios' daughters, tell their father about this. Helios appeals to Zeus telling them to dispose of Odysseus' men or he will take the Sun and shine it in the Underworld. Zeus destroys the ship with his lightning bolt, killing all the men except for Odysseus” wikipedia

The moral may be lost but Helios does not like his cattle (children ie Palestinians and others) killed and he ‘sees‘ everything.

Reve x

reve 07-10-2012 07:53 PM

Armageddon
 
(sorry should have noticed all that in my copy & paste above and cut the last bit out - too late to edit now and always what happens when one is in a hurry)

Almost everyone has heard of Armageddon and equate it with the end of the world. It is the Greek version of the name of an ancient settlement of Megiddo In Northern Israel but few know of its history. It was founded around 7000BC. Although relatively untouched the archaeology of this place which has been undertaken for almost a hundred years remains unpublished. But there is ample evidence for what has happened here.

Around 1450BC the Ancient Egyptians recorded in more detail than ever before a battle there. It was conducted by the Pharaoh Tuthmosis 111 (at the time of Moses as it happens) and enabled him to control the whole of Palestine. Although there is no Archaeological or contemporary written evidence evidence of Moses and the Israelites taking over the country, it is interesting that Tuthmosis 111 is accompanied by the first mention of ’Hebrews’ (haibrw) . This is from wiki

“ The Egyptian inscriptions of the campaign on the Temple of Karnak come from a daily journal kept by the scribe Tjaneni during the campaign. In the Egyptian account Thutmose III gathered an army of chariots and infantry that numbered between ten and twenty thousand men As the Egyptians mustered their forces the king of Kadesh gathered many tribal chieftains from Syria, Aram and Canaan around him, estimated at between ten and fifteen thousand, entered Megiddo…..The army leaders pleaded with him not to take the difficult road but to take either of the two easier roads. Instead, with information from the scouts, Thutmose III decided to take the direct path to Megiddo. He believed that if his generals advised him to take the easy route, then his enemy would assume he would do so, so he decided to do the unexpected….. To reduce the risk, Thutmose himself led his men through Aruna. With his infantry and the light cavalry of mounted bowmen, known as haibrw or the horsemen going by the side of the mountains, to take out any scouts that might be posted and leaving the road to the main force of chariots, he moved in quickly…..Tuthmoses set up siege-works and encircled the town, eventually forcing its occupants to surrender. At Karnak it is recorded that the victorious army took home 340 prisoners, 2,041 mares, 191 foals, 6 stallions, 924 chariots, 200 suits of armor, 502 bows, 1,929 cattle, 22,500 sheep, and the royal armor, chariot and tent-poles of the King of Megiddo. The city and citizens were spared. A number of other cities in the Jezreel Valley were conquered and Egyptian authority in the area was restored,…….Relief in the Karnak Temple showing Thutmosis III slaying Canaanite captives from the Battle of Megiddo, 15th Century BC. “

There was another battle of Megiddo in 609BC when another Pharaoh (Necho) defeated the Israelite king who stood against him, even though he asked him nicely not to. It is recorded in the Bible.

“ Judah fell under Egyptian control and influence. On his return from Syria and Mesopotamia, Necho II captured and deposed Jehoahaz, the son of Josiah who had just succeeded his father on the throne. The pharaoh enforced a tribute of 100 talents of silver and one talent of gold upon the kingdom, and appointed his older brother Eliakim as king. Necho also changed the name of this new king into Jehoiakim. Jehoahaz was taken captive to Egypt, where he became the first king of Judah to die in exile.” wikipedia

Then in 1918 there was another Battle of Megiddo. This time General Allenby with the help of Indian, Australian, Arab, North African forces and Lawrence of Arabia defeated the Ottomans who had controlled Palestine since the 15th century, took 75,000 prisoners and also forced the Germans to retreat. As a result Britain was awarded the Mandate by then League of Nations to rule Palestine and to enable a homeland for the Jewish People, which it did.

Megiddo has been fundamental inm deciding who should govern this land. The Bahai faith consider this last battle in 1918 to be the fulfilment of Revelations but perhaps it is not. One thing strikes me from all these battles and it is the remarkable fact that at a time when sieges usually ende3d inm wholesale murder, they did not. Tuthmosis took hostages, the elder sons of the region’s kings, educated them and sent them back to rule in an Egyptian way. This is in fact the origin of what is called Israel but do not expect anyone to agree. It has been three times so far and history repeats.

There can be a peaceful solution. However a drone was shot down over Israel today. It is thought to be of Iranian manufacture, perhaps copied from the US one they mysteriously landed in Iran using some magnetic ray. It was unarmed but is thought by many that it was looking for a way to take out the nuclear arsenal of Israel said to be in the Southern desert in a place called Dimona. A somewhat devilish name. I dread to think what would happen and we have to make peace for all the people in the Middle East, not nuclear war as may well be prophesied in Revelations. I am sure you all agree.


reve x

reve 08-10-2012 09:15 AM

Necho and God
 
I mentioned the Battle of Megiddo in 609BC above and want to point out a rather curious thing. The God of the Hebrews appears to have sided with the Egyptian pharaoh against His own people. This is not unique but should send out a warning even now that He will not tolerate evil done in His name and is not limited in his support to evil regimes. This is what the Jewish scribe wrote in the Bible about the battle:

" II Chronicles 35:20-35.[3]


After all this, when Josiah had set the temple in order, Neco king of Egypt came up to make war at Carchemish on the Euphrates, and Josiah went out to engage him. But Neco sent messengers to him, saying, “What have we to do with each other, O King of Judah? I am not coming against you today but against the house with which I am at war, and God has ordered me to hurry. Stop for your own sake from interfering with God who is with me, so that He will not destroy you.” However, Josiah would not turn away from him, but disguised himself in order to make war with him; nor did he listen to the words of Neco from the mouth of God, but came to make war on the plain of Megiddo. The archers shot King Josiah, and the king said to his servants, “Take me away, for I am badly wounded.” 24 So his servants took him out of the chariot and carried him in the second chariot which he had, and brought him to Jerusalem where he died and was buried in the tombs of his fathers. All Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah. Then Jeremiah chanted a lament for Josiah. And all the male and female singers speak about Josiah in their lamentations to this day. And they made them an ordinance in Israel; behold, they are also written in the Lamentations."

In fact some prophetesses come into this tale as well - particularly Huldah and Deborah. i will let wiki do the talking:

" Huldah (Hebrew: חֻלְדָּה‎‎) was a prophetess mentioned briefly in 2 Kings 22, and 2 Chronicles 34. After the discovery of a book of the Law during renovations at Solomon's Temple, on the order of King Josiah, Hilkiah together with Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah approach her to get the Lord's opinion.

She was the wife of Shallum, son of Tokhath (also called Tikvah), son of Harhas (also called Hasrah), keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District.

According to Rabbinic interpretation, Huldah and Deborah were the principal professed prophetesses in the Nevi'im (Prophets) portion of the Hebrew Bible, although other women were referred to as prophetesses. "Huldah" means "weasel", and "Deborah" means "bee" or "wasp".

The Huldah Gates in the Southern Wall of the Temple Mount are named for her. The Bible recounts the consulting of Huldah as follows:

And the King commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Miciah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asiah the King's servant, saying, Go ye, inquire of the Lord for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found, for great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us. So Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam, and Achbor, and Shaphan, and Asaiah, went unto Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe - now she dwelt in Jerusalem in the second quarter - and they spoke with her. And she said unto them: Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel: Tell ye the man that sent you unto me: Thus saith the Lord: Behold, I will bring evil upon this place and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read. (2 Kings 22:13-16)
Huldah, after authenticating the book and prophesying a future of destruction for failure to follow it, ends by reassuring King Josiah that because of his piety, God has heard his prayer and "thou shalt be gathered unto thy grave in peace, neither shall thy eyes see all the evil which I shall bring upon this place." (2 Kings 22:20).

Huldah appears in the Hebrew Bible only in nine verses, 2 Kings 22:13-20, 2 Chronicles 34:22-28. This short narrative is sufficient to make clear that Huldah was regarded as a prophetess accustomed to speaking the word of God directly to high priests and royal officials, to whom high officials came in supplication, who told kings and nations of their fates, who had the authority to determine what was and was not the genuine Law, and who spoke in a manner of stern command when acting as a prophetess. Nonetheless the Bible does not offer the sort of background information it typically does with other pivotal prophets. Indeed, we are left knowing more about her husband's background than we know of hers, and the little information we know of her personally is largely in relation to her husband." wikipedia

Unfortunately today's leaders do not seem to ask stern prophetesses able to tell them what they are doing wrong, but I can think of a Deborah who could. But of course common sense would tell most not to fire missiles from planes high in the sky into areas populated by women and children because if you kill innocent people you are evil and no excuse in the world will be accepted in the after life. On the other hand if you hiold out the olive branch, douubtless stolen from a farm owned for millennia by a Palestinian family, God will reward you with peace.

It is 'peace' that the Book of Enoch tells us is longed for by the fallen angels. Why on earth do they continue their wars?

reve x

reve 08-10-2012 11:57 AM

the only peaceful solution
 
It is necessary to see how we got into this pickle that now affects us all. I have mentioned Britain’s victory in the 1918 Battle of Megiddo. This actually followed on from what is called the Balfour Declaration



“Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.
His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
The "Balfour Declaration" was later incorporated into the Sèvres peace treaty with Turkey and the Mandate for Palestine. The original document is kept at the British Library.” wikipedia

Note how it expressly states that the intention is not to prejudice the existing non-Jewish population. This then became ratified when the League of Nations (which did not include the US, who were not participant in winning Megiddo) gave aq Mandate to Britain to go ahead with this.



In the Balfour Declaration of 1917, the United Kingdom became the first world power to endorse the establishment in Palestine of a "national home for the Jewish people." The British government confirmed this commitment by accepting the British Mandate for Palestine in 1922.

Britain officially committed itself to the objective set out in the Balfour Declaration by insisting on it forming the basis of the Mandate of Palestine (which it could have avoided), which was formally approved by the League of Nations in June 1922, and which formalised British rule in Palestine which had started in 1917. The preamble of the Mandate declared:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people...

In 1946, the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, also known as the Grady-Morrison Committee, noted that the demand for a Jewish State went beyond the obligations of either the Balfour Declaration or the Mandate and had been expressly disowned by the Chairman of the Jewish Agency as recently as 1932.

The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine said the Jewish National Home, which derived from the formulation of Zionist aspirations in the 1897 Basle program has provoked many discussions concerning its meaning, scope and legal character, especially since it had no known legal connotation and there are no precedents in international law for its interpretation. It was used in the Balfour Declaration and in the Mandate, both of which promised the establishment of a "Jewish National Home" without, however, defining its meaning. A statement on "British Policy in Palestine," issued on 3 June 1922 by the Colonial Office, placed a restrictive construction upon the Balfour Declaration. The statement excluded "the disappearance or subordination of the Arabic population, language or customs in Palestine" or "the imposition of Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole", and made it clear that in the eyes of the mandatory Power, the Jewish National Home was to be founded in Palestine and not that Palestine as a whole was to be converted into a Jewish National Home. The Committee noted that the construction, which restricted considerably the scope of the National Home, was made prior to the confirmation of the Mandate by the Council of the League of Nations and was formally accepted at the time by the Executive of the Zionist Organization.

Founding of the State
The concept of a national homeland for the Jewish people in the British Mandate of Palestine was enshrined in Israeli national policy and reflected in many of Israel's public and national institutions. The concept was expressed in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948 and given concrete expression in the Law of Return,


The preamble of the mandate document declared:
Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.” wikipedia

Of course there were problems administering this. Arabs attacked Jews and Jews even attacked the British. Something had to be done to make it possible for both ethnicities to live in peace.

“ In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed a partition between a small Jewish state, whose Arab population would have to be transferred, and an Arab state to be attached to Jordan. The proposal was rejected by the Arabs and by the Zionist Congress (by 300 votes to 158), but accepted by the latter as a basis for negotiations between the Zionist Executive and the British government.
Following the London Conference (1939) the British Government published a White Paper which proposed a limit to Jewish immigration from Europe, restrictions on Jewish land purchases, and a program for creating an independent state to replace the Mandate within ten years. This was seen by the Yishuv as betrayal of the mandatory terms, especially in light of the increasing persecution of Jews in Europe. In response, Zionists organised Aliyah Bet, a program of illegal immigration into Palestine. Lehi, a small group of extremist Zionists, staged armed attacks on British authorities in Palestine. However, the Jewish Agency, which represented the mainstream Zionist leadership, still hoped to persuade Britain to allow resumed Jewish immigration, and cooperated with Britain in World War II.” wikipedia

Massive Jewish immigration was to prove the downfall of the intention to protect the rights of the indigenous population. But as World War was an even bigger problem it all took a back seat. After the War though things had got even worse in Europe but Britain still sought to honour its promises to the Palestinians. But much of the world no longer cared about them as a result of Hitler’s treatment of the Jews.

“Following the war, 250,000 Jewish refugees were stranded in displaced persons (DP) camps in Europe. Despite the pressure of world opinion, in particular the repeated requests of US President Harry S. Truman and the recommendations of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry that 100,000 Jews be immediately granted entry to Palestine, the British maintained the ban on immigration”

Britain and America feel out. If 100,000 Jews were to be allowed into Palestine Britain foresaw an Arab uprising. But Politics being what they were this did not deter the US and yet they refused the British request to station 300,000 US soldiers there to ensure stability. Clearly some sort of partition (Apartheid) was needed:

“ These events were the decisive factors that forced Britain to announce their desire to terminate the Palestine Mandate and place the Question of Palestine before the United Nations, the successor to the League of Nations. The UN created UNSCOP (the UN Special Committee on Palestine) on 15 May 1947, with representatives from 11 countries. UNSCOP conducted hearings and made a general survey of the situation in Palestine, and issued its report on 31 August. Seven members (Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, Netherlands, Peru, Sweden, and Uruguay) recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states, with Jerusalem to be placed under international administration. Three members (India, Iran, and Yugoslavia) supported the creation of a single federal state containing both Jewish and Arab constituent states. Australia abstained.
On 29 November, the UN General Assembly, voting 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181 (II)., while making some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal. The partition plan required that the proposed states grant full civil rights to all people within their borders, regardless of race, religion or gender. It is important to note that the UN General Assembly is only granted the power to make recommendations, therefore, UNGAR 181 was not legally binding. Both the U.S. and the Soviet Union supported the resolution. Haiti, Liberia, and the Philippines changed their votes at the last moment after concerted pressure from the U.S. and from Zionist organisations. The five members of the Arab League, who were voting members at the time, voted against the Plan.

The Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation, accepted the plan, and nearly all the Jews in Palestine rejoiced at the news.
The partition plan was rejected out of hand by Palestinian Arab leadership and by most of the Arab population. Meeting in Cairo on November and December 1947, the Arab League then adopted a series of resolutions aimed at a military solution to the conflict.
Britain announced that it would accept the partition plan, but refused to enforce it, arguing it was not acceptable to both sides. Britain also refused to share the administration of Palestine with the UN Palestine Commission during the transitional period. In September 1947, the British government announced that the Mandate for Palestine would end at midnight on 14 May 1948.” wikipedia

Ominously there were even then rumblings that there was not enough land for Jewish tastes:

“ Some Jewish organisations also opposed the proposal. Irgun leader Menachem Begin announced: "The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature by institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for ever." These views were publicly rejected by the majority of the nascent Jewish state” wikipedia

But not for very long!

“The Jewish Leadership, led by future Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, declared the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel.[46], without mentioning its borders, on the afternoon of Friday, 14 May 1948 (5 Iyar 5708 (Hebrew calendar date), with the declaration to become effective from the end of the Mandate at midnight of that day. Israel was quickly recognised by the Soviet Union[citation needed] and many other countries[citation needed], but not by the surrounding Arab states. The United States immediately recognised, not Israel as such, but the provision government as the de facto authority .”

The whole thing was a mess even then.Subsequently however the Israeli state has taken more and more land and now over 4,000,000 Palestinains live in Concentration Camps perched on the borders.

Britain is entirely responsible for this. It was British initiative, a British victory which enabled this homeland and an ethic at its heart that the Palestinians’ rights would be protected. If we are to have peace in this world then mass immigration of Jewish people into Palestinian land has to stop. The West Bank is now attracting more and more of these immigrants who hold the view that the land is their’s by some divine decree. They need to study real history more and their Torah less.

Of course if the world wants to oversee deception and a swindle of a poor people then they cannot expect peace and will never have it. It is a mindset that is the problem and part of it is the refusal of the international community to even talk about restitution, or indeed a fair 2 state solution. The only solution likely is that the Palestinians will be given their camps. Then one day the tide will change. There will be another big war and we will be admitting them back to the land and the whole situation will reverse.

There is a much better ‘solution’. These people are all ‘one’. They may have different religions, most countries have more than one. But 'Israel' must grant full citizenship to all of them, all its 'tribes' not just one, and give tax breaks and benefits to those stuck in camps until they can be found real homes. If the world will not see to that then the Gods will, better for the world to do this first.

Reve x.

reve 08-10-2012 02:52 PM

genocidal genes?
 
In the interests of peace we need to find out the truth of the Hebrew people. They may say they are the chosen people of god and granted the Middle East to live in, but they would. Many authors have noted the similarities between the Temple and Egyptian monuments, even the Pyramids. The Gods also have much in common. There is Amen, whose name is spoken at the end of Hebrew prayers and was the great god of Egypt. And there is the ‘Messiah’ called Ameni by the Egyptians and the one who can unite the higher and lower worlds. Linen worn by both sets of priests. And of course circumcision which has its roots in Africa, was practised by the Ancient Egyptians and was adopted by the Hebrews. I am attaching a wiki paste on these Hebrews but what will you see is not a chosen race at all, but a name given to mercenaries. First look at this in the Bible - Deuteronomy2 24-37 and decide what Moses, his army and his God were really like:

“Then Sihon and all his people came out against us to fight at Jahaz. And the Lord our God delivered him over to us; so we defeated him, his sons, and all his people. We took all his cities at that time, and we utterly destroyed the men, women, and little ones of every city; we left none remaining. We took only the livestock as plunder for ourselves, with the spoil of the cities which we took. From Aroer, which is on the bank of the River Arnon, and from the city that is in the ravine, as far as Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us; the Lord our God delivered all to us. Only you did not go near the land of the people of Ammon; anywhere along the River Jabbok, or to the cities of the mountains, or wherever the Lord our God had forbidden us.”


It is called genocide. Siome things never change but believe me the true God is not a God of War thatnbthese people worshipped, but one of Truth and Justice and above all Peace.

“ Habiru or Apiru or ˁpr.w (Egyptian) was the name given by various Sumerian, Egyptian, Akkadian, Hittite, Mitanni, and Ugaritic sources (dated, roughly, between 1800 BC and 1100 BC) to a group of people living as nomadic invaders in areas of the Fertile Crescent from Northeastern Mesopotamia and Iran to the borders of Egypt in Canaan.[2] Depending on the source and epoch, these Habiru are variously described as nomadic or semi-nomadic, rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, and bowmen, servants, slaves, migrant laborers, etc.
The names Habiru and Apiru are used in Akkadian cuneiform texts. The corresponding name in the Egyptian script appears to be ʕpr.w, conventionally pronounced Apiru (W,or u-vowel "quail-chick" being used as the Egyptian plural suffix). In Mesopotamian records they are also identified by the Sumerian logogram SA.GAZ. The name Habiru was also found in the Amarna letters, which again include many names of Canaanite peoples written in Akkadian. The Amarna letters written to Egyptian pharaohs in the 14th century BC document a time of unrest in Canaan that goes back before the battle of Kadesh to the time of Thutmose I.

A number of the Amarna letters—sent to pharaohs Amenhotep III, Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV) and, briefly, his two successors from vassal kings in Canaan and Syria in the 14th century BC — mention the "Habiru". These letters, written by Canaanite scribes in the cuneiform-based Akkadian language, complain about attacks by armed groups who were willing to fight and plunder on any side of the local wars in exchange for equipment, provisions, and quarters.
Those people are identified by the Sumerian logogram SA.GAZ in most of the letters, and by the Akkadian name Hapiru in a few from the area of Jerusalem. They appear to be active on a broad area including Syria (at Upe near Damascus), Phoenicia (Sumur, Batrun and Byblos), and to the south as far as Jerusalem. None of the kings of the region, with the possible exception of one Abdi-Ashirta, are called Habiru or SA.GAZ.
Sources also discuss one Labayu, who had been an Egyptian vassal, and set up for himself. Attacking Megiddo, he assembled a group of Hapiru who consisted of both dispossessed local people and invaders. Having won Megiddo for himself, he gave his supporters Shechem for their own. (Harrelson, van der Steen)
Idrimi, the 15th century BC King of Alalakh, son of the King of Aleppo, states in his chronicles, that after his family had been forced to flee to Emar, with his mother's people, he left them and joined the "Hapiru people" in "Ammija in the land of Canaan", where the Hapiru recognized him as the "son of their overlord" and "gathered around him;" after living among them for seven years, he led his Habiru warriors in a successful attack by sea on Alalakh, where he became king.
Abdi-Heba, the Egyptian vassal ruler of Jerusalem in the Amarna period (mid-1330s BC), wrote a series of letters to the Egyptian king in which he complained about the activities of the "Habiru." The Habiru were plundering the lands of the king.
Abdi-Heba wanted to know why the king was letting them behave in this way; why he was not sending archers to protect his, the king's properties. If he did not send military help the whole land would fall to the Habiru.

Several Egyptian sources, both before and after the Amarna letters, mention a people called `PR.W in the consonant-only Egyptian script, where .W is the plural marker. The pronunciation of this word has been reconstructed as apiru.

This image from the inscriptions recording the Battle of Kadesh shows one of the ibrw or mounted bowmen used as scouts or messengers by the Egyptians. ibr is the Egyptian word for horse and w is the plural.
In his account of the conquest of Joppa, General Djehuty or Toth of pharaoh Thutmose III of Egypt (around 1440 BC) asks at some point that his horses be taken inside the city, lest they be stolen by a passing Apir.
On two stelae at Memphis and Karnak, Thutmose III's son Amenhotep II boasts of having made 89,600 prisoners in his campaign in Canaan (around 1420 BC), including "127 princes and 179 nobles(?) of Retenu, 3600 Apiru, 15,200 Shasu, 36,600 Hurrians", etc.
A stela from the reign of Seti I (around 1300 BC) tells that the pharaoh sent an expedition into the Levant, in response to an attack of "the apiru from Mount Yarmuta" upon a local town.
A list of goods bequeathed to several temples by Pharaoh Ramesses III (around 1160 BC) includes many serfs, Egyptian and foreign: 86,486 to Thebes (2607 foreigners), 12,364 to Heliopolis (2093 foreign), and 3079 to Memphis (205 foreign). The foreign serfs are described as "maryanu (soldiers), apiru, and people already settled in the temple estate".
The laborers that Ramesses IV sent to the quarry of Wadi Hammamat in his third year included 5,000 soldiers, 2,000 men attached to the temples of Pharaoh as well as 800 Apiru. This is the last known reference to the Apiru in Egyptian documents.

The SA.GAZ are mentioned in at least a dozen documents from the Hittite kingdom, starting from 1500 BC or earlier. Several documents contain the phrase "the troops from Hatti and the SA.GAZ troops", Hatti being the core region of the Hittite kingdom.
Two oaths from the reigns of Suppiluliuma (probably Suppiluliuma I, reigned ca. 1358 BC ? 1323 BC) and Mursilis II (around 1300 BC) invoke, among a long list of deities, "...the Lulahhi gods (and) the Hapiri gods, Ereshkigal, the gods and goddesses of the Hatti land, the gods and goddesses of Amurru land, ...".
Another mention occurs in a treaty between kings Duppi-Teshub of Amurru and Tudhaliya of Carchemish, arbitrated by Mursili II. The Hittite monarch recalls how he had restored king Abiradda to the throne of Jaruwatta, a town in the land of Barga, which had been captured by the Hurrians and given to "the grandfather of Tette, the SA.GAZ".
Another text record the existence of a Habiru settlement somewhere near a Hittite temple; one from Tahurpa names two female SA.GAZ singers..... “ wikipedia

I am not posting it all as most Middle Eastern nations at that time record these people. To say that modern man does not want to know this is understating it considerably, but how can we have peace if we ignore the truth? They are not all warlike, nor ever were. But their leaders and kings usually are, and they are the main problem. In peace time their people have no use for them. Unfortunately their scholars are completely brainwashed these days by an imagined history to give them some relevance. But the real history is there and a very bloody one it is. They were the Al Qaida of ancient times, obsessive, ferocious, cruel and very frightening. No one wanted them in their lands least of all Egypt where they settled and briefly ruled the North, and the answer seemed to be to give them their own land. As a result the world will be at war.

It is not hopeless yet. If all the Palestinians are also given a 'right of return', perhaps more deserved that for those who have been away for two thousand years, then all are given the vote, we can have the happy and thriving multi-cultural democracy there that was originally conceived by Britain.

Reve x


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