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-   -   "I am me, yes. This is me. I am me" (https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=175249)

rumpelstilzchen 07-07-2011 07:43 PM

"I am me, yes. This is me. I am me"
 
"I am me, yes. This is me. I am me" Peaceful

This has been buzzing around my head for a couple of days now; Lance of the family Thatcher's words when refusing to identify himself in court.
This has raised an interesting question in my mind, and one that iq145 touched on in the thread about Thatcher.

Imagine a fotl community. One that lives by the fotl common law: cause no harm or loss. It has been working fairly reasonably, but now there is a problem. There has been a murder. Suspicious eyes are looking to me as the culprit. Absurd I know, but yes me, Rumpel of the family Stilzchen is suspected of this heinous crime.
Now, as we know, fotl say our name is not ours. We don't own the name. We don't have a name. A collection of characters does not represent the flesh and blood. A name does not identify an individual. Only the individual can identify himself.
So, my question to freemen everywhere is: how would you charge me and/or prosecute me for this common law crime if I refuse to identify myself?

he said it was brasso 07-07-2011 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumpelstilzchen (Post 1060018897)
"I am me, yes. This is me. I am me" Peaceful

This has been buzzing around my head for a couple of days now; Lance of the family Thatcher's words when refusing to identify himself in court.
This has raised an interesting question in my mind, and one that iq145 touched on in the thread about Thatcher.

Imagine a fotl community. One that lives by the fotl common law: cause no harm or loss. It has been working fairly reasonably, but now there is a problem. There has been a murder. Suspicious eyes are looking to me as the culprit. Absurd I know, but yes me, Rumpel of the family Stilzchen is suspected of this heinous crime.
Now, as we know, fotl say our name is not ours. We don't own the name. We don't have a name. A collection of characters does not represent the flesh and blood. A name does not identify an individual. Only the individual can identify himself.
So, my question to freemen everywhere is: how would you charge me and/or prosecute me for this common law crime if I refuse to identify myself?

First point is, are you the only Rumpel of the family Stilzchen? You see, if there is a father, grandfather, son or grandson also called Rumpel, or indeed another random Rumpel of the family Stlizchen then we are in trouble.

A collection of characters does indeed not represent the flesh and blood. It is purely and simply an utterance or collection of letters that someone either wishes to or refuses to associate themselves with. FACT

theabominablephenomenon 07-07-2011 07:52 PM

What will happen to Lance if he continues to refuse to identify himself by his name?
Can't just keep him locked up surely?

rumpelstilzchen 07-07-2011 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by he said it was brasso (Post 1060018911)
First point is, are you the only Rumpel of the family Stilzchen? You see, if there is a father, grandfather, son or grandson also called Rumpel, or indeed another random Rumpel of the family Stlizchen then we are in trouble.

But I do not identify myself with this name.
However many of them there are is of no interest to me.
Quote:

A collection of characters does indeed not represent the flesh and blood. It is purely and simply an utterance or collection of letters that someone either wishes to or refuses to associate themselves with. FACT
And I refuse to identify myself as Rumpel of the family Stilzchen. I am flesh and blood.
So, now what?

iq_145 07-07-2011 08:13 PM

Well presumably the Peace Officers are summoned.

No, they can't be, because this is FOTLville, so no-one has authority to send out the Peace Officers. So let's assume that they come out if and when they feel like it. You know, for a cup of tea and a biscuit.

This does sound very civilized.

The dead body on the floor is a slight inconvenience, but nothing to worry about in FOTLville, where everyone gets along just fine doing whatever they want.

rumpelstilzchen 07-07-2011 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iq_145 (Post 1060018978)
Well presumably the Peace Officers are summoned.

But even if they do come, how can they arrest me? How can they identify me? They have nothing to identify me with.
(At this point we'll ignore the fact that I do not consent to their authority, nor do I consent to the common law.)

iq_145 07-07-2011 11:21 PM

Did the victim consent to your killing him (or her)?

And how are the FOTLers of FOTLville going to sleep easy in their beds, knowing that you are on the rampage? :eek:

iq_145 07-07-2011 11:29 PM

On their way to have tea and biscuits with you, the Peace Officers may knock down and kill someone themselves. Of course, they will not have any insurance, nor will they have a driver's licence, and the Peace Car will not have passed any examination as to its roadworthyness.

Ah well, shame for the (2nd) victim, eh?

Seems like FOTLville might be a dangerous place to live.

moobs 08-07-2011 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theabominablephenomenon (Post 1060018921)
What will happen to Lance if he continues to refuse to identify himself by his name?
Can't just keep him locked up surely?

They're going to call his probation officer to identify him.

rumpelstilzchen 08-07-2011 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moobs (Post 1060019587)
They're going to call his probation officer to identify him.

Well, obviously they cannot do that to me in Freeman Valley.
As freemen they will know that I am the only one who can establish my identity.

micklemus 08-07-2011 09:02 AM

Dear Rumpelstilzchen,

I appluad you on identifying the second defence in Freeman Valley. In the highly unlikely event that "I don't consent to your laws" doesn't work, "only I can identify myself" must do the trick.

I'm going to rename Freeman Valley to Tefal Canyon, which I feel is more apt.

I think someone should give them an island somewhere and let them crack on with it. We could ship all the criminals there too - they'd love the place. It neatly gives the freemen what they want and deals with prison overcrowding too. Perfect. I like this. Tefal Island in that case.

Maybe the freemen have invented a way of bypassing this latest loophole though. I look forward to seeing how.

rumpelstilzchen 08-07-2011 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by micklemus (Post 1060020065)

I'm going to rename Freeman Valley to Tefal Canyon, which I feel is more apt.

Excellent!
Forevermore it will be known as Tefal Canyon :D

Quote:

Maybe the freemen have invented a way of bypassing this latest loophole though. I look forward to seeing how.
I do so hope not.
At this moment in time it would appear that my chances of avoiding punishment for this murder most horrid are quite favourable.
Good news for me, considering some on here have in the past intimated that their preference for any punishment should utilise a lamppost.

grammarian 08-07-2011 09:47 AM

If the Tefalians are living on an island then I shall dock my galleon in Port-Tefal and try you on it under maritime law.

This will be achieved by cunningly inviting you onboard for rum and biscuits. Once you step foot on my vessel you are mine.

Ahoy!

rumpelstilzchen 08-07-2011 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grammarian (Post 1060020123)

This will be achieved by cunningly inviting you onboard for rum and biscuits.

:eek: Wow, the old press gangs were nothing compared to you

Quote:

Once you step foot on my vessel you are mine.

Ahoy!
Ah, but you will still have the problem of identifying me.

mfrey0118 08-07-2011 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumpelstilzchen (Post 1060018897)
"I am me, yes. This is me. I am me" Peaceful

This has been buzzing around my head for a couple of days now; Lance of the family Thatcher's words when refusing to identify himself in court.
This has raised an interesting question in my mind, and one that iq145 touched on in the thread about Thatcher.

Imagine a fotl community. One that lives by the fotl common law: cause no harm or loss. It has been working fairly reasonably, but now there is a problem. There has been a murder. Suspicious eyes are looking to me as the culprit. Absurd I know, but yes me, Rumpel of the family Stilzchen is suspected of this heinous crime.
Now, as we know, fotl say our name is not ours. We don't own the name. We don't have a name. A collection of characters does not represent the flesh and blood. A name does not identify an individual. Only the individual can identify himself.
So, my question to freemen everywhere is: how would you charge me and/or prosecute me for this common law crime if I refuse to identify myself?

"our name is not ours" is a contradictory statement. We do not claim the name given us by the State. We do have names, and they are given, but not by the State. Or in your mind does a name not exist unless it is documented by a corporate entity?

rumpelstilzchen 08-07-2011 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfrey0118 (Post 1060020410)
"our name is not ours" is a contradictory statement.

Indeed it is. But fotl contradict themselves all the time.
I believe "our name" is just a name that is given (usually) by our parents as a means to identify us. It is a convenient method for the government as a means to identify it's citizens too.
Quote:

We do not claim the name given us by the State
.
Are you claiming the state chooses your name? Or are you saying that once your parents have made a free choice and have chosen a name by which to call you, the state gives you an entirely different name?
Quote:

We do have names, and they are given, but not by the State.
Ah right, so you do accept that you have a name?
Is it your name?
Of course, silly me, it can't be your name. You cannot own a name.
But you have a name.
Given to you.
Are you bound by this name that is given to you and must you identify yourself by this name whether you consent to or not?
Quote:

Or in your mind does a name not exist unless it is documented by a corporate entity?
Of course all names exist, whether they be scribbles on a piece of paper or the spoken word.
The question is however, am I obliged to identify myself by a name given to me by another, whether I consent to or not?
Only I can identify myself.

lizardlover 08-07-2011 02:54 PM

Doesn't matter Rump, remember all freeman are honorable and would never murder anyone in the first place, so this whole discussion is moot. The idea is that we are all babies who need the gov't to place rules on us and freeman are grown ups who don't need any rules because they would never do anything wrong.

Grown ups who call us names, insults and like babies themselves.

jaryth 08-07-2011 03:20 PM

This will never be solved on this message board, Rumpelgenius.

lesactive 08-07-2011 04:20 PM

Didn't want to participate in this thread as the weetabix is a tad thick and salty, however, for the umpteenth time:

Quote:

§ 2.1 - Change of name act, Ontario, Canada
(a) a person whose birth is registered in Ontario is entitled to be recognized by the name appearing on the person’s birth certificate or change of name certificate, unless clause (c) applies;
Is that so difficult?

This really has turned into JREF V2.0.

girlgye 08-07-2011 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lesactive (Post 1060020930)
Didn't want to participate in this thread as the weetabix is a tad thick and salty, however, for the umpteenth time:



Is that so difficult?

This really has turned into JREF V2.0.

Quite. Anyone else thinking the same may wish to take matters up with the mods.

It's the nasty sarcastic intent of the threads.


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