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-   -   We are not responsible for our actions. (https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=216804)

sandwarrior 17-07-2012 12:29 PM

We are not responsible for our actions.
 
I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."

unicorny 17-07-2012 12:55 PM

nice thread :)

Been thinking about this a lot since it came up in another thread and came across this last night I think it illustrates the idea quite well (well it fits with my scientific background anyway)

http://phys.org/news186830615.html

http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/ne...s/freewill.jpg
Three different models explain the causal mechanism of free will and the flow of information between unconscious neural activity and conscious thought (GES = genes, environment, stochasticism). In A, the intuitive model, there is no causal component for will. Will influences conscious thought, which in turn influences unconscious neural activity to direct behavior. In B, a causal component of will is introduced: unconscious neural activity and GES. But now will loses its “freedom.” In C, the model that Cashmore advocates, will is dispensed with. Conscious thought is simply a reflection of, rather than an influence on, unconscious neural activity, which directs behavior. The dotted arrow 2 in C indicates a subservient role of conscious thought in directing behavior.

Quote:

As Cashmore explains, the human brain acts at both the conscious level as well as the unconscious. It’s our consciousness that makes us aware of our actions, giving us the sense that we control them, as well. But even without this awareness, our brains can still induce our bodies to act, and studies have indicated that consciousness is something that follows unconscious neural activity. Just because we are often aware of multiple paths to take, that doesn’t mean we actually get to choose one of them based on our own free will. As the ancient Greeks asked, by what mechanism would we be choosing? The physical world is made of causes and effects - “nothing comes from nothing” - but free will, by its very definition, has no physical cause.

I accept that we are very much products of our enviroments and past experience but I like the idea of B in the diagram more than C, but maybe thats just because it still offers me some sovereignty over myself, that i'm not keen to let go of, because when it actually comes down to it I can see that C is more likely to be correct and is much more freeing on many levels.

reverendsquid 17-07-2012 01:50 PM

I'm not the brightest, so forgive me if this is an obvious question, but isn't there always a small element of free will, even if you take into account your unconscious and your past experiences?

For example, I saw Unicorny's post and thought 'I won't read that, I'm rubbish at science' , and then I decided to read it anyway, just in case I understood it. (I didn't, or not much of it, because I am rubbish at science). But the point is, I made a choice. There were also a number of other things I could have done - turned the computer off, made chicken noises, looked at another site to help me make sense of it, PM'd Unicorny to ask what s/he meant..and I understand that the likelihood of me making any of those choices comes down to my background and inclinations. It's still a choice that I make, though. It might be statistically more likely that I'll do one of those things, but I'm aware of the others and can decide. For example, next time I might just decide to make chicken noises.

I hope I don't sound flippant, I'm very interested in what you have to say, but I need a bit of clarification, I think!

zephirop 17-07-2012 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandwarrior (Post 1060943623)
I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."

True but with some caveat, if I chose to saw my own leg off right now, that was a action of free will, it will change my life in a way I will always be responsible for.

True random acts are the only way to make sure you are not being fucked over by 'fate'.

What you are saying is quite true though, but it's such an infinite web of cause and effect, who could gain any insight from it?

oiram 17-07-2012 02:29 PM

Or the will of the Gods?
 
So when People vote for known evil its "God's Will"?

Or the will of the Gods?

Or was it your personal individual free choice & God's Will therefore God's fault?


To me it looks like finding someone to blame others then yourself.......


I truly know the effect of the voters voting causing Evil & Shit for all.

The cause needs a actor ..... no actor no cause! ..... even the Will is not a actor ..... it needs a body to cause something.
Without a actor making the cause happen there will be no effect, effecting anyone.


"God's Will" .... OK..... nice..... what's next ..... blame the Aliens?


ufochick 17-07-2012 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandwarrior (Post 1060943623)
I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."


If we REact with the programs we are born with and accumulate from society then yes free will is a joke. It's like living life on auto pilot. However if we CHOOSE our actions and reactions and don't just hang on for the ride it is a completely different set of rules.

reverendsquid 17-07-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zephirop (Post 1060943763)
True but with some caveat, if I chose to saw my own leg off right now, that was a action of free will, it will change my life in a way I will always be responsible for.

True random acts are the only way to make sure you are not being fucked over by 'fate'.

What you are saying is quite true though, but it's such an infinite web of cause and effect, who could gain any insight from it?

Ah, but how can you be sure it's completely random? Why did you choose to saw your own leg off, rather than pretending to be Marie Antoinette or deciding to live underground in a burrow, like a mole? Your unconscious mind will play a part in any thoughts you have, and any decision you make.

I suppose, if you wanted to perform a completely random act, you'd have to get someone else to make a list, and then roll a dice or flip a coin to see which one you were going to do. And even then, I'm sure some people would say that your unconscious would play a part in the person you chose, and maybe even how you rolled the dice or flipped the coin...

Otherwise, I agree, I think there's always an element of choice, even though your choices may be limited. If that makes sense.

zephirop 17-07-2012 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reverendsquid (Post 1060943848)
Ah, but how can you be sure it's completely random? Why did you choose to saw your own leg off, rather than pretending to be Marie Antoinette or deciding to live underground in a burrow, like a mole? Your unconscious mind will play a part in any thoughts you have, and any decision you make.

I suppose, if you wanted to perform a completely random act, you'd have to get someone else to make a list, and then roll a dice or flip a coin to see which one you were going to do. And even then, I'm sure some people would say that your unconscious would play a part in the person you chose, and maybe even how you rolled the dice or flipped the coin...

Otherwise, I agree, I think there's always an element of choice, even though your choices may be limited. If that makes sense.

Basically the plot of 'The Dice man' then? :)

sandwarrior 17-07-2012 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unicorny (Post 1060943662)
nice thread :)
I accept that we are very much products of our enviroments and past experience but I like the idea of B in the diagram more than C, but maybe thats just because it still offers me some sovereignty over myself, that i'm not keen to let go of, because when it actually comes down to it I can see that C is more likely to be correct and is much more freeing on many levels.

No body likes the idea that we have no control but once grasped it is actually very liberating, I actually think that surrendering to God is this very thought, Diving off the cliff is symbolic to just accepting life as it comes and realising that we have absolutely no control over what happens.

Quote:

I'm not the brightest, so forgive me if this is an obvious question, but isn't there always a small element of free will, even if you take into account your unconscious and your past experiences?

For example, I saw Unicorny's post and thought 'I won't read that, I'm rubbish at science' , and then I decided to read it anyway, just in case I understood it. (I didn't, or not much of it, because I am rubbish at science). But the point is, I made a choice.
Yes, you made a choice but the choice you made wasn’t free, your will was dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the current situation. For it to be free the has to be an abscence of a cause and this is impossible. If you start making chicken noises for no reason then you are probably insane, but there will be a cause for your insanity.

Quote:

True but with some caveat, if I chose to saw my own leg off right now, that was a action of free will, it will change my life in a way I will always be responsible for.

True random acts are the only way to make sure you are not being fucked over by 'fate'.

What you are saying is quite true though, but it's such an infinite web of cause and effect, who could gain any insight from it?

But there would have been a cause for you to chop your leg off, see the example above ref chicken noises.

There is no such thing as random acts of anything, nothing is random in the universe, everything is caused. Even the most powerful computers cannot cause randomness, it is a fallacy.

Yes it is infinte, that is why the illusion of choice is so strong.

Quote:

So when People vote for known evil its "God's Will"?

Or the will of the Gods?

Or was it your personal individual free choice & God's Will therefore God's fault?


To me it looks like finding someone to blame others then yourself.......

Actually it seems it is yes, the person could have acted in no other way given the infinite variable situation he/she found herself in. Kids are intuitively right when they whine but it wasn’t my fault, it actually wasn’t.

What it actually does is remove blame from the situation, it just is at it is and could be no different.

Quote:

If we REact with the programs we are born with and accumulate from society then yes free will is a joke. It's like living life on auto pilot. However if we CHOOSE our actions and reactions and don't just hang on for the ride it is a completely different set of rules.

We cannot choose our actions, we will only ever pick one option in any given situation and picking the other choice is an impossibility.

sandwarrior 17-07-2012 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reverendsquid (Post 1060943848)
I suppose, if you wanted to perform a completely random act, you'd have to get someone else to make a list, and then roll a dice or flip a coin to see which one you were going to do. And even then, I'm sure some people would say that your unconscious would play a part in the person you chose, and maybe even how you rolled the dice or flipped the coin...

Otherwise, I agree, I think there's always an element of choice, even though your choices may be limited. If that makes sense.

But the cause of your action would be the person rolling the dice and the making of the list.

Randomnes doesn't exist, just as chance doesn't exist.

sandwarrior 17-07-2012 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zephirop (Post 1060943763)
What you are saying is quite true though, but it's such an infinite web of cause and effect, who could gain any insight from it?

Everybody would gain.

Kids wouldn't be brought up without a sense of punishment and guilt, parents would instinctively know it wasnt their fault and show compassion.

People would accept situations easier knowing that it couldn't have happened any other way, victimhood would be remove, the "why me syndrom."

Guilt for past experiences would vanish.

People would enjoy life more knowing that there is something guiding life and it isn't just some random event.

Life would be so much easier and happier.

unicorny 17-07-2012 03:50 PM

Hopefully I can illustrate to some extent what I have been wrestling with and laughing my head off at since yesterday when I was introduced to the idea and desperately looking for loopholes

Quote:

Originally Posted by reverendsquid (Post 1060943738)
I'm not the brightest, so forgive me if this is an obvious question, but isn't there always a small element of free will, even if you take into account your unconscious and your past experiences?

For example, I saw Unicorny's post and thought 'I won't read that, I'm rubbish at science' , and then I decided to read it anyway, just in case I understood it. (I didn't, or not much of it, because I am rubbish at science). But the point is, I made a choice. There were also a number of other things I could have done - turned the computer off, made chicken noises, looked at another site to help me make sense of it, PM'd Unicorny to ask what s/he meant..and I understand that the likelihood of me making any of those choices comes down to my background and inclinations. It's still a choice that I make, though. It might be statistically more likely that I'll do one of those things, but I'm aware of the others and can decide. For example, next time I might just decide to make chicken noises.

I hope I don't sound flippant, I'm very interested in what you have to say, but I need a bit of clarification, I think!

The point is kind of that you could have done all those things but you didn't.
you did what you did and that was based on past and present experiences in one form or another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zephirop (Post 1060943763)
True but with some caveat, if I chose to saw my own leg off right now, that was a action of free will, it will change my life in a way I will always be responsible for.

True random acts are the only way to make sure you are not being fucked over by 'fate'.

What you are saying is quite true though, but it's such an infinite web of cause and effect, who could gain any insight from it?

It wouldn't be a random act at all because you only thought of it because you thought if i did a random act that would be free will and you only thought that because you were looking at this thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiram (Post 1060943779)
So when People vote for known evil its "God's Will"?

Or the will of the Gods?

Or was it your personal individual free choice & God's Will therefore God's fault?


To me it looks like finding someone to blame others then yourself.......


I truly know the effect of the voters voting causing Evil & Shit for all.

The cause needs a actor ..... no actor no cause! ..... even the Will is not a actor ..... it needs a body to cause something.
Without a actor making the cause happen there will be no effect, effecting anyone.


"God's Will" .... OK..... nice..... what's next ..... blame the Aliens?


I'm not keen on the whole god bit that sandy put in there I prefer to see it as a universe in flux and no
single action can happen that has not been caused in some way by past actions ...... we are all one

and it's not about blame either just cause something has a cause and effect it doesn't mean that there is blame it almost negates all blame really

Quote:

Originally Posted by ufochick (Post 1060943826)
If we REact with the programs we are born with and accumulate from society then yes free will is a joke. It's like living life on auto pilot. However if we CHOOSE our actions and reactions and don't just hang on for the ride it is a completely different set of rules.

we do yes but learn about another way of being and that effects the path we take, as it gives us different ways of looking at things the cause and effect thing actually. In some ways it's kind of irrelevant and wont effect your life in any way by realising any of this, but at the same time you can let go of all that blame towards others and guilt that we pile on ourselves because we did what we did.

To be honest there is no way of knowing for sure, not from inside this universe's reality anyway, but the law of cause and effect seems pretty rock solid if anyone can find a way round it then please let me know.

sandwarrior 17-07-2012 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unicorny (Post 1060943903)
Hopefully I can illustrate to some extent what I have been wrestling with and laughing my head off at since yesterday when I was introduced to the idea and desperately looking for loopholes

The point is kind of that you could have done all those things but you didn't.
you did what you did and that was based on past and present experiences in one form or another.

It wouldn't be a random act at all because you only thought of it because you thought if i did a random act that would be free will and you only thought that because you were looking at this thread


I'm not keen on the whole god bit that sandy put in there I prefer to see it as a universe in flux and no [[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[


single action can happen that has not been caused in some way by past actions ...... we are all one

and it's not about blame either just cause something has a cause and effect it doesn't mean that there is blame it almost negates all blame really


we do yes but learn about another way of being and that effects the path we take, as it gives us different ways of looking at things the cause and effect thing actually. In some ways it's kind of irrelevant and wont effect your life in any way by realising any of this, but at the same time you can let go of all that blame towards others and guilt that we pile on ourselves because we did what we did.

To be honest there is no way of knowing for sure, not from inside this universe's reality anyway, but the law of cause and effect seems pretty rock solid if anyone can find a way round it then please let me know.

\

You have got it :)

sniper13x 17-07-2012 04:27 PM

The concept that humans have free will in THIS existence is complete 100% bullshit. You have no control over your next thought, you have no control over where your thoughts will go. We are living in duality, and our bi-polar brain is insane. It never shuts up, it is always speaking in the background no matter what you try to do. Your mind is in constant conflict with itself because it has been disconnected from your spirit/intuition/soul. The mind was supposed to serve who we really are, not lead it. Unfortunately humans are trapped here, being forced to observe this reality through this limited 5 sense body.

zephirop 17-07-2012 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniper13x (Post 1060943968)
The concept that humans have free will in THIS existence is complete 100% bullshit. You have no control over your next thought, you have no control over where your thoughts will go. We are living in duality, and our bi-polar brain is insane. It never shuts up, it is always speaking in the background no matter what you try to do. Your mind is in constant conflict with itself because it has been disconnected from your spirit/intuition/soul. The mind was supposed to serve who we really are, not lead it. Unfortunately humans are trapped here, being forced to observe this reality through this limited 5 sense body.

Mine sure is. :( And no it never does...weed helps pacify it somewhat though.

sniper13x 17-07-2012 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandwarrior (Post 1060943893)
Everybody would gain.

Kids wouldn't be brought up without a sense of punishment and guilt, parents would instinctively know it wasnt there fault and show compassion.

People would accept situations easier knowing that it couldn't have happened any other way, victimhood would be remove, the "why me syndrom."

Guilt for past experiences would vanish.

People would enjoy life more knowing that there is something guiding life and it isn't just some random event.

Life would be so much easier and happier.

If people would just remember what our "universe" really is, all this would be so much simpler to grasp.

http://img.tfd.com/cde/WAVELEN.GIF

As long as something is "tapped in" to the wavelength we exist in, we'll never have free will. They will continue to reinforce the duality of the 2 extremes in that wavelength and trap us.

unicorny 17-07-2012 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniper13x (Post 1060943968)
The concept that humans have free will in THIS existence is complete 100% bullshit. You have no control over your next thought, you have no control over where your thoughts will go. We are living in duality, and our bi-polar brain is insane. It never shuts up, it is always speaking in the background no matter what you try to do. Your mind is in constant conflict with itself because it has been disconnected from your spirit/intuition/soul. The mind was supposed to serve who we really are, not lead it. Unfortunately humans are trapped here, being forced to observe this reality through this limited 5 sense body.

I dont see any reason to limit it to a 3d physical reality i mean it works on a quantum level and I think even the soul is effected by energetic changes

unicorny 17-07-2012 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniper13x (Post 1060943975)
If people would just remember what our "universe" really is, all this would be so much simpler to grasp.

http://img.tfd.com/cde/WAVELEN.GIF

As long as something is "tapped in" to the wavelength we exist in, we'll never have free will. They will continue to reinforce the duality of the 2 extremes in that wavelength and trap us.

This might just be what our universe is, a big ball of cause and effect, no more no less, no big deal!

sandwarrior 17-07-2012 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unicorny (Post 1060943998)
I dont see any reason to limit it to a 3d physical reality i mean it works on a quantum level and I think even the soul is effected by energetic changes

Yes I am sure this is true, At the moment Quantum Mechanics seems random to Scientists but this is because they cannot see the Causes driving the effects well enough, some point in the future I am sure they will.

Concerning the Soul, I like to think that once it is evolved enough to not incarnate in this dimension again then it is freed from the chain of cause and effect but this is just a fanciful thought with nothing to back it up.

I have had this converstaion with lots of people and up to yet nobody has come up with a feasible break in the chain of cause and effect.

lakkimakki 17-07-2012 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandwarrior (Post 1060943623)
I have come to the conclusion that ultimately nobody is responsible for their actions, at first this may sound ludicrous but hear me out.

IMO everything in this dimension is subject to the Law of cause and effect, absolutely everything, including our thoughts.

This being the case, whatever is happening right now and whatever will happen in the future could only ever happen that way; It also means that there is no free will and that every choice that you make is dictated by the sum total of your previous experience and the situation that you find yourself in when making the choice.

This means that ultimately people are not responsible for their actions and what they do is beyond their control and in total control of the Law of cause and effect, Or "God’s Will."

I think the following;

The creator is plugged into all of us. It interacts trough us, uses our senses , WTF the -It- even knows what we think.

Maybe the creator is very, very lonely and just needs someone to play with. :)

Once the -it- sees that your doing the right thing without any tension, with a pure heart , it will slowly unlock your higher potential.


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