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-   -   Hydrogen as fuel (https://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=185508)

posidon 02-10-2011 03:33 AM

Hydrogen
 
Hello guys,

Today i was checking some youtube videos, and a lot of people convert their gasoline car in a hydrogen car, meaning that they produce hydrogen out of H2O, using 0 gasoline, or almost no gasoline at all.

The amount of videos you can find on this matter in incredible, is not people show how to do, and some videos i found they are very detailed, you don´t need so much energy to make the electrolysis that produce the hydrogen, a simple car battery is enough, and the setup look like very easy to assemble and install in your car without many major modifications on the engine, sometimes a stronger alternator is needed. Eventually all cars can run with a non polluted power source, and be completely independent from the oil industry! Meaning no more wars because oil, no petrol dependency, and no more escalating fuel prices! Or the big oil industries will just silence this to, like they do in the past to other inventors!

It sounds to good to be true, but what you guys think, all this videos are fake ? Or in fact this can be the future?



Truck on hydrogen in America

Some guy explain how to assemble all parts


Philippines using hydrogen

How to make hydrogen (listening to the last video of this series he say it all)

And you can find thousands more!

somethinganonymous 06-10-2011 12:02 AM

I'm not a phycisist, yet, personally, I'm of the opinion that the videos are all fake.

I think it would require more energy to brute force the molecular bonds of H2O than the energy received from burning the Hydrogen after release.

However, that is not to say that one can not make an automobile that runs on water, just not with any applying of electric-energy, for one will not receive back more than the energy given. And, electrical energy has all it's potential in the electric current itself, thus, by brute forcing the H2O molecule by using electricity, one does not add any potential energy to the equation, and by newton's law of energy, the energy we receive from the hydrogen atom, must be less than the electric energy used on the molecule.

This is my take on it.

However there exists in this world forces which are far greater than the force used on electrons to create electricity and forces which can transfer potential energy in them, which means, that by other means than electrical energy , one can break the bonds of the H2O molecule and in the process, tap into the now potential energy of the hydrogen, making the Hydrogen burning give us back energy when we, from the start only added an energy-free source of force, yet, this is not possible with the potential of the electron, which is, when used, electric energy.

The electron needs a source of 'push'-force because the electron itself is only potential energy and does not have any 'push' force of itself. In the Atom, the tension between the Proton and the Neutron creates the push on the electron. No electric current exists without a external source of the 'push'-force.

The use of the word 'push' for lack of a better word

bobster 06-10-2011 12:14 AM

It won't be very safe that's for sure. It'll be like travelling on a bomb

edostar 06-10-2011 07:29 AM

Hi.

It is possible (according to Daniel Dingel) to run your car entirely on water without any gas in the tank but you'll need to ask him how he does it.

I've been running my car with an HHO booster for two years now but it's just a supplement to the regular gasoline fuel not a replacement.
It does take energy out of the system to produce the electrical current in order to electrolyze the water to produce 'Hydroxy' (Hydrogen + Oxygen) and the savings come mainly in the form of the increased running efficiency of the engine.

It isn't that dangerous as it produces 'Hydrogen on Demand' (so just what you're using at the time and no HHO storage).
When the engine stops; the HHO production stops too.

Better still is the Hydrocarbon Crack System which takes no electrical power from the system.
It also produces Hydrogen but no Oxygen and it cracks it out of gasoline.
It is a simple system which is easily made from readily available parts by pretty much anyone with minimal bench skills in their back yard.

It was invented a couple of years ago by an Indonesian and has since been fitted to hundreds of private cars and motorcycles across the country.
The only English language forum I know of is the one I contribute to: http://www.fuel-saver.org/Thread-Hyd...racking-System

I would recommend this system long before the HHO booster.
It's cheaper to put together (virtually free actually).
It's easy to put together (play-school stuff).
It's much safer as it produces no oxygen (and Hydrogen can't burn without oxygen).

Power increases and huge fuel savings have been experienced using HCS which accounts for its escalating popularity.
Also the vehicle emissions go way down when this system is fitted.
I run HCS on all my vehicles.

Dan.

posidon 06-10-2011 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by somethinganonymous (Post 1060263089)
I'm not a phycisist, yet, personally, I'm of the opinion that the videos are all fake.

I think it would require more energy to brute force the molecular bonds of H2O than the energy received from burning the Hydrogen after release.

However, that is not to say that one can not make an automobile that runs on water, just not with any applying of electric-energy, for one will not receive back more than the energy given. And, electrical energy has all it's potential in the electric current itself, thus, by brute forcing the H2O molecule by using electricity, one does not add any potential energy to the equation, and by newton's law of energy, the energy we receive from the hydrogen atom, must be less than the electric energy used on the molecule.

This is my take on it.

However there exists in this world forces which are far greater than the force used on electrons to create electricity and forces which can transfer potential energy in them, which means, that by other means than electrical energy , one can break the bonds of the H2O molecule and in the process, tap into the now potential energy of the hydrogen, making the Hydrogen burning give us back energy when we, from the start only added an energy-free source of force, yet, this is not possible with the potential of the electron, which is, when used, electric energy.

The electron needs a source of 'push'-force because the electron itself is only potential energy and does not have any 'push' force of itself. In the Atom, the tension between the Proton and the Neutron creates the push on the electron. No electric current exists without a external source of the 'push'-force.

The use of the word 'push' for lack of a better word

Hi,

My opinion, is that they aren't fake. Since in fact you can run a car using hydrogen, OK i accept most of the videos you find in the web can be fake, like the one with the two Americans running the pick up on hydrogen.
The Irish accent man he look like very sincere, and in fact all the apparatus he's using, plus is technical knowledge, made it look like true for me, he even tell were to get the material in Ebay.
One thing is for sure, the news we see in television some year ago, of cars running on H20 look very true to me, and all this inventors or just mysteriously die or just disappear, and the only way they can run their cars on H20 is by electrolysis producing the Hydrogen, this is a science well know to everyone this days, but the mains stream keep pass the information that for make Electrolysis you will need to use petrol to produce enough energy for the process, what in my opinion is fake!

And at last, you can see in my last video, a complete tutorial step by step how to produce Hydrogen, and the man last words, is that everyone should spread the world among young people, to let everyone know that in fact is possible and very simple science, that everyone can do!

I firmly believe that is possible, and for sure thousands of persons already run their cars on H2O, but if they try sell this idea, or make money with it, the oil industry will silence them forever! So they keep their silence, spreading the word with caution.

posidon 06-10-2011 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobster (Post 1060263136)
It won't be very safe that's for sure. It'll be like travelling on a bomb

I don´t think so, because the water containers you see the people using in their cars are made of plastic, means that if they could´t keep the pressure the container will explode or the cap will pop off.

The only thing i think it could happened is some water enter inside your engine and damage it under any repair.

pi3141 07-10-2011 07:47 PM

Maybe this will help

Quote:

Consider a 1 litre 2 stroke engine.
Air fuel mixtures for combustion engines should be 14.7% (call it 15% for easier maths)

At 1000rpm there are 500 intake strokes. 2 strokes make 1 revolution.

Thus we need to supply 15% of 500 litres per min

=75 litres per min.

14V HHO cells typically comsume 15 amps to produce 1 litre of fuel per min. 30 amps for 2 litres. (1 cell)

You would need 38 HHO cells all drawing 30 amps and producing 2 litres per min to power a 1 litre 2 stroke at 1000rpm


Consider a 2 litre 4 stroke. (I'm having trouble getting my head around this one but I think the following is correct.)

Each cylinder = 500cc

There is 1 intake stroke in the 4 stroke process

So 1000rpm = 250 intake strokes of 0.5 litres per cylinder

= 125 litres per min

15% of 125 litres = 18.75 litres per minute of fuel, per cylinder

4 Cylinders = 4 x 18.75 = 75 litres per minutre, per 1000 rpm

Again, you would need 38 HHO cells drawing 30 amps and producing 2 litres per cell to fuel the car at 1000rpm
38 HHO cells x 30 amps = 1140

My Lotus redlines at 7000rpm. Therefore to fuel it to max power I would need

7 x 38 HHO cells = 266 HHO cells
7 x 1140 amps = 7980 amps

You can buy batteries with 220aH ratings. You would need 37 batteries to power the system for 1 hour!
Batteries of those capacities weigh 25Kgs = 925Kgs!
Poorly thought out and designed HHO cells will not add very much to running an engine.

There is an old classic car article that explains if you position a water bottle with a tube into the bottle to take air in and another tube out of the bottle into the air filter you will get a small increase in mpg - probably the same as these HHO cells but without the electrical current.

If you read up on this stuff you will see that its a lot more complicated than it seems to make something work - I'm not saying it can't be done, but not with these cheap HHO cells

pi3141 07-10-2011 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by posidon (Post 1060264734)
The only thing i think it could happened is some water enter inside your engine and damage it under any repair.

This is true and steps should be taken to avoid it - i.e turn off HHO generator a few miles before home or set it up to only kick in at full throttle (when it has least effect)

alan m 12-10-2011 05:04 AM

The amount of energy that it takes to seperate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen in a molecule of water is the same amount that you get when you recombine them, so the cost of creating Hydrogen is not enticing.
However if you use a catalyst, such as Platinum, it becomes very inexpensive to produce Hydrogen on a mass scale.
Gold will fall in value but Platinum can only go up.
Alan

ming the merciless 12-11-2011 02:31 PM

Breakthrough in hydrogen fuel cells: Chemists develop way to safely store, extract hydrogen


http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-08-...-chemists.html

.

apollo_gnomon 13-11-2011 05:43 PM

An interesting development, thanks!

h2pogo 19-11-2011 07:25 PM

Engine running on water.
 
This guy is getting there:cool:


hho worrior 07-12-2011 03:44 PM

hho
 
this hho thinking must be viable , submarines use the same process to replenish the air inside , separating hydrogen and oxygen from water , it was on how its done , a uk tv programe , however maybe we are some way off from using an on demand system , it needs research from scientists instead of being poo pooed , just a thought , there must be hundreds of ways to fuel a car, not battery though , far to limited and expensive to be taken seriously , oh i,m new on here so hello ,

pi3141 07-12-2011 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hho worrior (Post 1060425374)
this hho thinking must be viable , submarines use the same process to replenish the air inside , separating hydrogen and oxygen from water , it was on how its done , a uk tv programe , however maybe we are some way off from using an on demand system , it needs research from scientists instead of being poo pooed , just a thought , there must be hundreds of ways to fuel a car, not battery though , far to limited and expensive to be taken seriously , oh i,m new on here so hello ,

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I do believe Stan Meyers created an on demand system. But I guess thats another discussion.

If you want a good read on the subject I recommend these articles -

Quote:

Research Paper on Ravi’s Water Fuel cell Replication

Link - http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf

hho worrior 07-12-2011 08:33 PM

hho
 
it just seems to me that we are being diverted away from this , being told that it wont work , disinformation , as the big oil companies wont want us to be able to run our cars etc on water!

neutrino 07-12-2011 08:38 PM

It takes energy to convert the water to Hydrogen and Oxygen. So it's not clean unless the energy used to convert it is clean energy.

My car runs on willpower.............

It also runs on unleaded petrol, so I should maybe get a new car that doesn't require the willpower.

pi3141 07-12-2011 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hho worrior (Post 1060426382)
it just seems to me that we are being diverted away from this , being told that it wont work , disinformation , as the big oil companies wont want us to be able to run our cars etc on water!

The current resurgence in this technology may be worse than that - I can see these cheap ineffective HHO kits discrediting the concept altogether by not actually working and possibly rusting out peoples engines.

Some may look back on this widely publicised period and claim it as proof the concept is a failure and damages engines.

Its so obvious we are being diverted away from this and other technology's for reasons of political and economic control. Its very sad. But I don't think they can hide it forever.


HHO kits without pulsed DC inputs and control of engine management systems don't have a hope in hell of working. Not to mention the energy available out of the alternator being insufficient to provide enough current for the hydrogen required. One hopes that there is a magical formula involving the size of the cell and a resonant DC pulse of specific frequency matched to the cell it is working in that creates not only an electrical input but also a vibrationary, or acoustic if you will, so the whole device resonates in an electrical and physical state and creates low energy Hydrogen conversion. Which it very much looks like Stan Meyers found. But that technology is tied up in legal dispute between an investor and the inventor, with the inventor being dead, its not likely to be resolved and we are successfuly steered away.

Periods like these where large numbers of people try out the poorly designed technology and damage their engines while receiving no gain will only drive this technology further away from the minds of the masses.


{sorry, rant over).

pi3141 07-12-2011 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutrino (Post 1060426401)
It takes energy to convert the water to Hydrogen and Oxygen. So it's not clean unless the energy used to convert it is clean energy.

Chicken and the egg, it almost sounds like your saying lets not create better technologies that can be clean when we've found a way to crack our energy source problems until we've found a way to solve our source energy problem. I say create away, find all the best technologies you can while your trying to figure out the big questions. That way when you do figure it out, you've got the right technologies to utilize it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neutrino (Post 1060426401)
My car runs on willpower.............

It also runs on unleaded petrol, so I should maybe get a new car that doesn't require the willpower.

:D Lol. I would recommend an LPG, second hand ones are quite cheap nowadays.

neutrino 07-12-2011 11:03 PM

I'm all for a Mojave desert solar power plant, and when I say Mojave desert I mean the entire area of it being turned to solar, and then using that solar power to extract Hydrogen.

octopus 08-12-2011 01:51 AM

Mysterious disappearance of hydrogen pioneer in UK
 
This is a sad story form the Northern Isles, about a pioneer in hydrogen technology:

Quote:

Monday, October 01, 2007

Oct 1st: A Shetland Mystery:
The Story of Sandy Macaulay, His Unexplained Disappearance, and the Hydrogen Car


For the last twelve months dark rumours and wild speculations have engulfed a tiny Shetland island, following the disappearance of a prominent and well-liked member of the local community.

The isle of Unst is the most northerly populated place in Scotland, with around five hundred people living there. These are hardy folk, most of whom work in traditional industries. There was, however, a remarkable exception amongst them.

Sandy Macaulay was a director of the PURE Energy Centre, which employed six people, and was located about a mile from his home in the Hagdale Industrial Estate. Enjoying the isolation of the small close-knit island community, Macaulay was working on the development of wind-power and hydrogen-based renewable energy technologies.

Macaulay was last seen at 11.25pm, a year ago today. He was spotted in his office by an acquaintance. The day before he'd been at a tourist conference in Unst. He'd also attended the opening of a new shop on the island, called The Final Checkout, which was located next door to the PURE Energy Centre.

Macaulay often worked late. Records show that on this particular night his computer was last accessed at 5am. Around 5.20am two cars were seen coming from the Hagdale estate. Sandy Macaulay has never been seen since. Nor have the drivers of the two vehicles been traced.

As the months have passed all sorts of theories have taken legs. Suicide. Accident. Abduction. Even murder. They all have their backers.

WHO WAS SANDY MACAULAY? ...
http://kevinwilliamson.blogspot.com/...-of-sandy.html


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