9/11 was there a plane ?

[peter]

5 minutes ago, Arnie said:

 

Yes in the world of physics. The kinetic energy from the broken part of the building has more energy than the resistant force of the floor below. As it falls, that energy builds up, it is inevitable.

So your telling me that the architects designed a building that could withstand an impact from a large passenger aircraft  but if one or two floors would collapse the entire building would start to turn to dust in mid air , fair enough then

[peter]

16 minutes ago, Arnie said:

Lots of questions but none really relevant.  We see the building bowing and giving way. It's right in front of your eyes and impossible to miss. Right there, there ar no thunder clap noises for such a massive building, you would hear this miles away, absolutely miles. I would be staggered if during the fall, people within or below didn't hear insane loud noises.

Go and watch the vids of the buildings coming down ,focus on the area about 5-8 floors under the dust cloud  ,tell me what you see

Edited September 17, 2022 by peter

[Arnie]

3 minutes ago, TheConsultant said:

fuck no it doesn't. 

 

Phuck yes it does. See what I did there? I showed a video with a computer simulation plugging in every known variable. It did exactly what we saw.

 

3 minutes ago, TheConsultant said:

I generally try to keep my opinion out of these discussions and stick to a factual basis. I generally and clearly say when something I post is based on my opinion rather than something established.

 

Your opinion is based on things you have read but do not appear to have verified.

 

3 minutes ago, TheConsultant said:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228660396_Active_Thermitic_Material_Discovered_in_Dust_from_the_911_World_Trade_Center_Catastrophe

Rather than replying to people here with nothing, go do a little research.

 

Hmm, the "go and do some research" suggestion and a link that must be the "truth". Researchgate ? Ok, you go and do some research:

 

(PDF) The Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers: A Metallurgist's View (researchgate.net)

How did the WTC towers collapse: A new theory | Request PDF (researchgate.net)

Why did World Trade Center collapse? – Simple analysis (researchgate.net)

(PDF) Collapse of world trade center towers: what did and did not cause it? (researchgate.net)

 

 

If you only look at things that reinforce your current view you don't get to see why it is maybe wrong.

 

[Morpheus]

2 hours ago, TheConsultant said:

Also you cannot have "versions" of truth, truth is truth

 

[Arnie]

Just now, peter said:

Go and watch the vids of the buildings coming down ,focus on the area about 5-8 floors under the dust clout ,tell me what you see

 

No, please don't ask me to see what you think. Tell me what YOU see and give me an example. If it is puff ejections from massively compressed air seeking an exit then there is my answer.

[TheConsultant]

1 minute ago, Arnie said:

 

Phuck yes it does. See what I did there? I showed a video with a computer simulation plugging in every known variable. It did exactly what we saw.

 

 

Your opinion is based on things you have read but do not appear to have verified.

 

 

Hmm, the "go and do some research" suggestion and a link that must be the "truth". Researchgate ? Ok, you go and do some research:

 

(PDF) The Collapse of the World Trade Center Towers: A Metallurgist's View (researchgate.net)

How did the WTC towers collapse: A new theory | Request PDF (researchgate.net)

Why did World Trade Center collapse? – Simple analysis (researchgate.net)

(PDF) Collapse of world trade center towers: what did and did not cause it? (researchgate.net)

 

 

If you only look at things that reinforce your current view you don't get to see why it is maybe wrong.

 

You are offering nothing to the discussion whatsoever. I operate from the position that what I think is wrong, reverse confirmation bias. 

[Morpheus]

12 minutes ago, peter said:

So your telling me that the architects designed a building that could withstand an impact from a large passenger aircraft  but if one or two floors would collapse the entire building would start to turn to dust in mid air , fair enough then

Exactly, the absurdity of it. But this guy's a regular know-it-all, so it does surprise me you're giving this energy vampire any attention at all. 

 

They're trying to convince you that what you see with your own eyes is a lie.

[Macnamara]

29 minutes ago, Arnie said:

 

And yet there were fires burning for most of the day and they all survived this? Extremely unlikely.

 

a couple of small fires

SEC Enforcement Office Is Destroyed in Attack

By Michael Schroeder and

Mitchell Pacelle Staff Reporters of The Wall Street Journal

Sept. 13, 2001 12:01 am ET
 

The enforcement office of the Securities and Exchange Commission was destroyed in Tuesday's terrorist attack, leaving the nation's top securities regulator scrambling to reconstruct some of its longest-running investigations.

The SEC's New York regional office at 7 World Trade Center -- a building near the huge twin towers -- housed 320 employees on three floors, by far the largest and most important SEC operation outside of its Washington headquarters. The collapse of No. 7 on Tuesday took with it documents and computer records focused on hundreds of investigations, as well as records related to broker-dealers. The New York office is well-known for handling numerous insider-trading cases, as well as small-company stock manipulation cases involving organized-crime families

Shortly after the first jetliner plunged into one of the World Trade Center's twin towers, the SEC staff was evacuated. Agency officials said they believe all New York employees are safe, though a toll-free telephone number (877-404-3222) has been set up for staff members to check in.

'Monumental Task'

"It's going to be a monumental task getting back in operation," said Wayne Carlin, New York regional director. Mr. Carlin said he and other SEC regional directors were in San Francisco when the attacks began, at a conference of the North American Securities Administrators Association, the group representing state securities directors.

 

Some of the SEC material lost in the building's collapse will be recoverable, according to one person familiar with the situation. Copies of some documents are held by the Washington office, and some computer files are backed up off-site, this person said. In cases for which the U.S. Attorney's office is conducting parallel investigations, documents are sometimes shared with that office. In addition, transcripts of deposition testimony can be recreated by the court reporters who transcribed them.

Other material is lost forever, including many raw notes taken by SEC lawyers during their investigations and audiotaped evidence that was not shared with the U.S. Attorney's office or other government investigators, this person said.

At a minimum, such losses have the potential to slow SEC cases, as material turned up in the discovery process and deposition transcripts has to be produced a second time, said John Coffee, Jr., a visiting professor of corporate and securities law at Harvard Law School. The loss of other material that cannot be duplicated could be more damaging, he said. "To the extent that you have real smoking-gun evidence, if that's gone, it's quite possibly gone forever," he said. Many prosecutors, he explained, are secretive about evidence and reluctant to send it to other offices by computer. "There's a certain paranoia among prosecutors in making sure information doesn't leak out."

The SEC will look for new office space as close to the federal court in lower Manhattan as possible, though space will be at a premium with so much destruction of office space in the financial district.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000348229290230479

[Arnie]

15 minutes ago, peter said:

So your telling me that the architects designed a building that could withstand an impact from a large passenger aircraft  but if one or two floors would collapse the entire building would start to turn to dust in mid air , fair enough then

 

Nice strawman there. They designed the building to withstand a plane impact. It withstood a plane impact.

 

What it wasn't designed to do is take the impact from an almost fully fuel laden bigger plane at FULL speed that creates fires of that nature. NO building could ever contemplate that occurring at that time. It didn't turn it to dust, it does what it always does and creates significant dust clouds.

 

1 minute ago, Morpheus said:

Exactly, the absurdity of it. But this guy's a regular know-it-all, so it does surprise me you're giving this energy vampire any attention at all. 

 

How rude. I don't claim to be a know all and if you are able to explain things satisfactorily then why haven't you. My arguments are sound and as yet I'm not seeing much logical and explanatory rebuttal.

 

1 minute ago, Morpheus said:

They're trying to convince you that what you see with your own eyes is a lie.

 

No. But then again, seeing and understanding are two very different things.

[TheConsultant]

https://www.ifsecglobal.com/fire-news/dubai-inferno-5-historys-worst-skyscraper-fires/ - all of those didn't collapse in to their own footprint at near freefall speed. Or indeed at all.

Steel melts at 1510 degrees centigrade, these fires whilst burning all day were less than half that figure, steel doesn't melt from that even if you allowed it to burn until the sun dies out. No way, no how.

Edited September 17, 2022 by TheConsultant

[Arnie]

7 minutes ago, TheConsultant said:

You are offering nothing to the discussion whatsoever. I operate from the position that what I think is wrong, reverse confirmation bias. 

 And with a gigantic wave of the hands my big post just above .... not answered by you. I am offering "nothing" except things that don't fit in with your opinions. That is why you are not properly addressing them. Now, just above that video by Mick West, time stamped, lists dozens of ways to create iron spheres without thermite. Watch it and maybe learn something new.

[legion]

Arnie.. 

 

There's around 50 spinning plates. 

You can't keep them all going. 

 

Sit down. 

Have a rest. 

[Arnie]

1 minute ago, TheConsultant said:

https://www.ifsecglobal.com/fire-news/dubai-inferno-5-historys-worst-skyscraper-fires/ - all of those didn't collapse in to their own footprint at near freefall speed. Or indeed at all.

 None of them had a plane impact stripping away fire retardants and massive localised fires. None of them resemble the size and construction of the towers.

 

1 minute ago, TheConsultant said:

Steel melts at 1510 degrees centigrade, these fires whilst burning all day were less than half that figure, steel doesn't melt from that even if you allowed it to burn until the sun dies out. No way, no how.

 

And the failed straw man again. Steel didn't need to melt, didn't melt and has neveer been claimed to have melted. It weakens though and the weight above causes bowing EXACTLY at the impact points and that is EXACTLY where the building clearly gives way. Your own eyes just needs to look.

 

 

 

[Morpheus]

7 minutes ago, Arnie said:

My arguments are sound and as yet I'm not seeing much logical and explanatory rebuttal.

Sure

[Arnie]

Just now, legion said:

Arnie.. 

 

There's around 50 spinning plates. 

You can't keep them all going. 

 

Sit down. 

Have a rest. 

 

Just trying to answer posts aimed at me. It's called debate. I'm sipping tea with digestives with the telly on. I feel just fine thank you.

[Morpheus]

7 minutes ago, Arnie said:

No. But then again, seeing and understanding are two very different things.

and let me guess, you've got all locked down.....

[peter]

8 minutes ago, Arnie said:

Nice strawman there. They designed the building to withstand a plane impact. It withstood a plane impact.

You liked that one did you

[Arnie]

12 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

a couple of small fires

 

 

You failed to offer me the logical reason for why they brought down the WTC7? Fire was destroying the documents without anyone bothering to go do a search through rubble. That would be the least favourable way to dispose of incriminating evidence.

[Arnie]

4 minutes ago, Morpheus said:

and let me guess, you've got all locked down.....

 

Address the content please. A better guess is you haven't.

[legion]

4 minutes ago, Arnie said:

with the telly on.

 

Oh dear.. 

What program have you got on..?

 

[Arnie]

3 minutes ago, legion said:

 

Oh dear.. 

What program have you got on..?

 

 

BT sport. Oh dear?  Maybe you thought I was mindlessly watching someone filing past a coffin.

 

Laters......this stuff is soooo 20 years ago.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Arnie

[TheConsultant]

Rivers of molten metals. 

Anyone can provide rebuttal and science that backs the story, it was falsified for a reason. 

[Morpheus]

4 hours ago, Arnie said:

 

Address the content please. A better guess is you haven't.

Now, you say you're not a know-it-all, yet somehow you seem to be an aviation expert, a fully qualified pilot, an architectural engineer, astrologist, a fully qualified astronaut (fuckin space cadet more like) and anything else you'd like to add (in case I missed it). 

 

So forgive me for thinking this of you, but you demonstrate nothing else. 

[peter]

18 minutes ago, Arnie said:

 

No, please don't ask me to see what you think. Tell me what YOU see and give me an example. If it is puff ejections from massively compressed air seeking an exit then there is my answer.

Ok fair enough we will have to agree to disagree,however if they are indeed what you say they are, what is causing the floors above the puffs of air to disintegrate and they are not just creating dust they are disintegrating, if as you say these floors are collapsing one on top of the other internally you would expect the outside shell to be still visible for a certain amount of time but this is not the case

[TheConsultant]

In response to the numerous reports of molten metal under ground zero, defenders of the official version of 9/11 have tried to argue that it was not steel, but some other kind of metal with a lower melting point.

Well, here are what top experts who eyewitnessed the molten metal say:

• The structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC purportedly described fires still burning and molten steel still running 21 days after the attacks (page 3)

• A retired professor of physics and atmospheric science said "in mid-October when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire--which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December"

• The head of a team of scientists studying the potential health effects of 9/11, reported, "Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense. In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel"

• Hazardous materials experts also stated that, six weeks after 9/11, "There are pieces of steel being pulled out [from as far as six stories underground] that are still cherry red" and "the blaze is so 'far beyond a normal fire' that it is nearly impossible to draw conclusions about it based on other fires" (pay-per-view)

• An expert stated about World Trade Center building 7, "A combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, some engineers said. But that would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been PARTLY EVAPORATED in extraordinarily high temperatures" (pay-per-view). Note that evaporation means conversion from a liquid to a gas; so the steel beams in building 7 were subjected to temperatures high enough to melt and evaporate them

• According to reporter Christopher Bollyn, Mark Loizeaux, president the world's top demolition company, and Peter Tully, head of a large construction firm, said the following:

Tully told AFP that he had seen pools of “literally molten steel” in the rubble.

Loizeaux confirmed this: “Yes, hot spots of molten steel in the basements,” he said, “at the bottom of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven levels.”

The molten steel was found “three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,” he said. He confirmed that molten steel was also found at WTC 7, which mysteriously collapsed in the late afternoon.

Here's what eyewitness firefighters say:

• New York firefighters recalled in a documentary film, "heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel"

• A NY firefighter described molten steel flowing at ground zero, and said it was like a "foundry" or like "lava"

• According to a member of New York Air National Guard's 109th Air Wing, who was at Ground Zero from September 22 to October 6, "One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers' remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots"

• As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O'Toole saw a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, "was dripping from the molten steel"

Here's what other eyewitnesses say:

• A public health advisor who arrived at Ground Zero on September 12, said that "feeling the heat" and "seeing the molten steel" there reminded him of a volcano

• An employee of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue witnessed "Fires burn[ing and molten steel flow[ing] in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet"

• A reporter with rare access to the debris at ground zero "descended deep below street level to areas where underground fires still burned and steel flowed in molten streams"

• An Occupational Safety and Health Administration Officer at the Trade Center reported a fire truck 10 feet below the ground that was still burning two weeks after the Tower collapsed, "its metal so hot that it looked like a vat of molten steel"

• A witness said “In the first few weeks, sometimes when a worker would pull a steel beam from the wreckage, the end of the beam would be dripping molten steel”

• A NY Department of Sanitation spokeswoman said "for about two and a half months after the attacks, in addition to its regular duties, NYDS played a major role in debris removal - everything from molten steel beams to human remains..."

The fact that there was molten steel under ground zero for months after 9/11 is very odd, especially since firefighters sprayed millions of gallons of water on the fires and applied high-tech fire retardants.