9/11 was there a plane ?

[Arnie]

9 minutes ago, webtrekker said:

These buildings did not 'collapse' in their own footprint, they were DUST before they even reached the ground.

 

False. The bulk of the falling mass was blocked out by copious amounts of dust. They did collapse into their own footprint.

[peter]

15 minutes ago, webtrekker said:

These buildings did not 'collapse' in their own footprint, they were DUST before they even reached the ground.

I find it funny that the so called fires were hot enough to bring down 3 buildings yet cold enough to leave passports intact 

Edited September 17, 2022 by peter

[Arnie]

20 minutes ago, peter said:

You can burn C4 and hit it with a high velocity tracer round and it wont detonate so how do you know that it wouldn't survive ,that's just your assumption as for ,Thermite, it depends what casing its housed in  it's very easy to make  and magnesium ribbon will burn at a high enough temp to set it going

 

 

All sounds amazingly feasible right up to the point of getting it installed on every floor under all the insulation and within fire protection layers. How many people to do that? It's almost easier to just whack a plane into the building and hope for the best.

 

C4? Wow, how much of that do you think they used without explosions heard 50 blocks away?

[Arnie]

1 minute ago, peter said:

I find it funny that the so called fires can bring down 3 buildings yet couldn't even singe a passport

 

Well , we know for sure there were fires. The bit about the passport? I don't actually care that much, seems iffy, but not impossible.

The passport in the ruins | 911facts.dk

[Macnamara]

Planes were the cover story but to make both those steel structures collapse in what was a giant occult ritual they needed to have pre-placed charges on the central steel columns. Accounts say that certain lifts were not in use prior to the attacks and it is very possible that mossad teams, with the permission of larry silverstein, entered those lift shafts and other service channels and pre-placed the necessary charges

[peter]

3 minutes ago, Arnie said:

C4? Wow, how much of that do you think they used without explosions heard 50 blocks away?

I don't know ,how much do you think they used

[TheConsultant]

11 minutes ago, Arnie said:

No, they say shit in shit out when it's actually shit in. You just dismissed it with a waive of the Jedi hand. For all your posts, all you have said is something about it being impossible for the building to collapse from what we witnessed. This is your opinion and as far as I can tell with nothing tangible to support it. Whereas I gave you the ONLY medium possible to support my counter claim, short of finding some similar building fallind down to recreate it.

I have not once claimed anything other than thermite compounds were found at the site independently and forensically. Not mentioning explosives, and as previously stated thermite can be ignited from heat, some are ignited by other means and are very heat resistant. I haven't stated its impossible, not once. 
 

11 minutes ago, Arnie said:

Your version of the truth is very far fetched.  

Its backed by forensic studies. Outside of logic and common sense, forensics done independently shows thermite found. Now is that a reaction to something else occurring? As previously mentioned it was dust before it fell.
 

11 minutes ago, Arnie said:

False. And they really didn't read the memo obviously. Don't photograph the "suspicious" boxes and don't put it on the internet.

 

This was an art project:

 

Gelitin - Wikipedia

When people use wikipedia to back something up outside of sports team lineups and tv show episode listings generally speaking they have nothing to input of value. I use it for very basic things to point people in directions, your link offers nothing except sewing doubt in established facts surrounding the events of 9-11.
 

Edited September 17, 2022 by TheConsultant

[TheConsultant]

Planned demolition of buildings in USA. Of which at least one country knew about beforehand.

[peter]

20 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

Planes were the cover story but to make both those steel structures collapse in what was a giant occult ritual they needed to have pre-placed charges on the central steel columns. Accounts say that certain lifts were not in use prior to the attacks and it is very possible that mossad teams, with the permission of larry silverstein, entered those lift shafts and other service channels and pre-placed the necessary charges

Yes I find it very telling that Larry Silverstein said in an interview with regards to building 3 ,I'm paraphrasing here, The building has become unstable because of the fires so we will have to pull it ,It takes weeks sometimes months to prepare a building for controlled demolition,so how was that achieved on the day.

Also there were two Israeli firms (I forget the names) on the level where the second plane hit that just happened to move out the day before . There is a doco called loose change that covers all the inconsistencies with 9/11 that was the original one but there are other follow ups if anyone is interested, and of course if it's still available 

Edited September 17, 2022 by peter

[Arnie]

13 minutes ago, peter said:

I don't know ,how much do you think they used

 

Your claim, your guesstimate - they don't usually use it in demolition. But the sounds of explosive charges going off are mighty loud:

 

 

[Macnamara]

3 minutes ago, peter said:

Yes I find it very telling that Larry Silverstein said in an interview with regards to building 3 ,I'm paraphrasing here, The building has become unstable because of the fires so we will have to pull it

 

another steel framed building....

 

the charges were pre-placed

 

i'm pretty sure there were records in that building relating to an investigation: an FBI office. I can't remember the specifics and also the department in the pentagon that was looking into the $2.1 trillion of the military budget that donald rumsfeld announced, the day before the attacks, was unaccounted for was also hit in the attack on the pentagon

Edited September 17, 2022 by Macnamara

[TheConsultant]

21 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

Planes were the cover story but to make both those steel structures collapse in what was a giant occult ritual they needed to have pre-placed charges on the central steel columns. Accounts say that certain lifts were not in use prior to the attacks and it is very possible that mossad teams, with the permission of larry silverstein, entered those lift shafts and other service channels and pre-placed the necessary charges

Yellow are the lift shafts and orange/red are hollow core columns. I think you are absolutely correct.

[Talorgan]

Just now, Macnamara said:

 

another steel framed building....

 

the charges were pre-placed

 

i'm pretty sure there were records in that building relating to an investigation: an FBI office. I can't remember the specifics and also the department in the pentagon that was looking into the $2.1 trillion of the military budget that donald rumsfeld announced, the day before the attacks, was unaccounted for was also hit in the attack on the pentagon

Yes and the way they got rid of all the rubble and not allow proper studies of the materials after.

 David Icke   two books on it as so much details worth reading 

[peter]

@ArnieHow many were interviewed that said they heard explosions

Just by looking  the dumb vid you posted there were 5 buildings they have tried to take down at the same time ,without watching it ,I suspect that might be loud ,in case you hadn't noticed the three buildings in question came down at different times

Edited September 17, 2022 by peter

[Arnie]

19 minutes ago, TheConsultant said:

I have not once claimed anything other than thermite compounds were found at the site independently and forensically. Not mentioning explosives, and as previously stated thermite can be ignited from heat, some are ignited by other means and are very heat resistant. I haven't stated its impossible, not once. 

 

You have your opinion on the matter. No problem. The sheer quantity involved, the logistics in placing it together with the invisibility factor and the large elephant in the room that everyone ignores.

 

19 minutes ago, TheConsultant said:

Its backed by forensic studies. Outside of logic and common sense, forensics done independently shows thermite found. Now is that a reaction to something else occurring? As previously mentioned it was dust before it fell.

 

Forensic studies find chemicals that occur in normal buildings and chemical reactions from fires. Saying they are thermite is pure speculation and ignores the lack of sufficient quantity to bring down such vast buildings. Remember you are suggesting that every floor was demolished with this stuff as opposed to letting physics do its natural job. That is a colossal amount of the stuff.

 

19 minutes ago, TheConsultant said:

When people use wikipedia to back something up outside of sports team lineups and tv show episode listings generally speaking they have nothing to input of value. I use it for very basic things to point people in directions, your link offers nothing except sewing doubt in established facts surrounding the events of 9-11.

 

When people automatically dismiss wikipedia they lack the observation by which each page is generally made up from.

 

https://www.gelitin.net/projects/b-thing/

References

• Kahn, Meredith (2005-11-06). "Directions: Big, Dead, Rotting, Silly Rabbit". New York Times. Retrieved 2009-04-17.
• Castellini, Luisa (2005-09-02). "Ad Artesina arriva Pink Rabbit, il coniglio rosa più grande del mondo" (in Italian). il Giornale. Retrieved 2009-04-17.
• Davis, Ben. "Raging Within the Machine". artnet magazine. Retrieved 2009-04-17.
• Dewan, Shaila (August 18, 2001). "Balcony scene (or unseen) atop the world;episode at trade center assumes mythic qualities". The New York Times (Metro section).
• Rubinowitz, Tex (2001). Gelatin: The B-Thing. ISBN 978-3883755076.
• Amazon listing for The B-Thing
• Angelopoulou, Sofia Lekka (2018-06-19). "gelitin invites visitors to walk around giant turds in latest exhibition 'vorm - fellows - attitude'". Designboom.
• "Artists erect giant pink bunny on mountain". Ananova. Archived from the original on 2005-09-24.
• Pictures Archived 2007-09-29 at the Wayback Machine, gelitin.net.

 

 

[Arnie]

1 minute ago, peter said:

How many were interviewed that said they heard explosions

Just by looking  the dumb vid you posted there are 5 buildings they have tried to take down at the same time ,without watching it ,I suspect that might be loud ,in case you hadn't noticed the three buildings in question came down at different times

 

Hearing things exploding in the towers during the fire is not the same as hearing hundreds of extremely loud individual floor charges. The video I posted was not "dumb", but concluding that the WTC1/2 could have some cascading demolition that nobody hears the explosions to, now that isn't exactly intelligent.

 

The idea that synchronised thermite was used is just so very unfeasible. The physics works for the collapses.

[peter]

8 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

 

another steel framed building....

 

the charges were pre-placed

 

i'm pretty sure there were records in that building relating to an investigation: an FBI office. I can't remember the specifics and also the department in the pentagon that was looking into the $2.1 trillion of the military budget that donald rumsfeld announced, the day before the attacks, was unaccounted for was also hit in the attack on the pentagon

And guess which section that was miraculously hit  the financial auditing section

[peter]

1 minute ago, Arnie said:

The physics works for the collapses.

maybe in your world

[Arnie]

15 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

another steel framed building....the charges were pre-placed

 

And yet there were fires burning for most of the day and they all survived this? Extremely unlikely.

 

15 minutes ago, Macnamara said:

i'm pretty sure there were records in that building relating to an investigation: an FBI office. I can't remember the specifics and also the department in the pentagon that was looking into the $2.1 trillion of the military budget that donald rumsfeld announced, the day before the attacks, was unaccounted for was also hit in the attack on the pentagon

 

So, the claim is to get rid of these papers - rather than bundling them into a van at night, let the tower burn them completely (with maybe an assist with a few flame throwers) they in fact chose to detonate the tower and blow them all over the place, THEN spend hours making sure they had them all secure and sneak them offsite for something or other (destruction I presume).

 

Can you see any logic flaws here? I asked why they brought down WTC7, can anyone else supply a logical and workable reason?

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Arnie
bracket

[Arnie]

2 minutes ago, peter said:

maybe in your world

 

Yes in the world of physics. The kinetic energy from the broken part of the building has more energy than the resistant force of the floor below. As it falls, that energy builds up, it is inevitable.

[peter]

3 minutes ago, Arnie said:

 

Hearing things exploding in the towers during the fire is not the same as hearing hundreds of extremely loud individual floor charges. The video I posted was not "dumb", but concluding that the WTC1/2 could have some cascading demolition that nobody hears the explosions to, now that isn't exactly intelligent.

 

The idea that synchronised thermite was used is just so very unfeasible. The physics works for the collapses.

How far away do you think the public were ,how much ambient noise do you think was around, sirens screaming etc and how much noise do you think the building made while is was magically  turning to dust, see the interviews with the first responders in the basement levels with regards to very large explosions  and also others on different levels

[TheConsultant]

7 minutes ago, Arnie said:

The physics works for the collapses.

fuck no it doesn't. 
 

11 minutes ago, Arnie said:

You have your opinion on the matter.

I generally try to keep my opinion out of these discussions and stick to a factual basis. I generally and clearly say when something I post is based on my opinion rather than something established.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228660396_Active_Thermitic_Material_Discovered_in_Dust_from_the_911_World_Trade_Center_Catastrophe

Rather than replying to people here with nothing, go do a little research.

[Macnamara]

20 hours ago, Arnie said:

So, the claim is to get rid of these papers - rather than bundling them into a van at night, let the tower burn them completely (with maybe an assist with a few flame throwers they in fact chose to detonate the tower and blow them all over the place, THEN spend hours making sure they had them all secure and sneak them offsite for something or other (deswtruction I presume)

 

Special Reports Last Updated: Sep 29th, 2006 - 01:12:16   9/11 and the Greenberg Familia By Jerry Mazza Online Journal Associate Editor Sep 29, 2006, 01:06   Email this article  Printer friendly page Democratic Underground Demopedia reports in Who Killed John O’Neill that at the time of 9/11, AIG, the world’s largest insurance company, and subsidiaries Marsh McLennan, ACE and Kroll, were run by the Greenberg family. With Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member Maurice “Hank” Greenberg as the AIG godfather, the Familia’s tentacles curled around the heart of the tragedy. Hank’s son Jeffrey, a CFR member as well, was chairman of Marsh & McLennan, situated on floors throughout the North Tower of the World Trade Center as well as the top floors of the South Tower. Marsh also had ties to the CIA. Son Evan Greenberg, a CFR member, was CEO of ACE Limited, situated in Tower 7, which also contained AIG subsidiary Kroll, closely related to the CIA, also with an office in Tower 7. Tower 7 also contained offices of the FBI, Department of Defense, IRS (which contained prodigious amounts of corporate tax fraud corporate, including Enron’s), US Secret Service, Securities & Exchange Commission (with more stock fraud records), and Citibank’s Salomon Smith Barney, the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management and many other financial institutions. Greenberg’s cousin, Alan “Ace” Greenberg, was former CEO of Bear Sterns, where the Bush family, Cheney family George Schultz, James Baker, et al, did business. It is the leading brokerage firm of the great and all-powerful Bush Familia. Also reported by Democratic Underground, AIG’s Kroll “provided protection services,” among other things, to high level Americans at home and abroad. Kroll had military teams in their company and merged with Armor Holdings on August 23, 2001, adding Defence Systems Limited, another private military corporation, to their operation, and an ex-KGB team called Alpha Firm earlier acquired by Defense Systems Limited. These four teams could have been used on 9/11, part of a “corporatizing” of black ops in tandem with military teams. According to whistleblower Richard Grove, who worked as a senior manager for SilverStream Software on Marsh and AIG accounts, Kroll also managed the Enron fraud once Kenneth Lay stepped down. Marsh, immediately after 9/11, established a specialized terrorism team called Marsh Crisis Consultancy (led by L. Paul Bremer III), adding the teams Control Risks Group, a British ex-SAS team and Versar, bio-terrorism and homeland defense team. These players could have known each other from 9/11, bringing in new assignments and profits. Democratic Underground also reports, AIG allegedly was laundering drug money, and was involved in the Afghanistan oil and gas pipelines. Greenberg and the Adnan Khasshogi family allegedly benefited from the Afghanistan narcotics trade and interests in the oil and gas pipelines, as well. Greenberg’s Law Firm Connections to Bush According to www.sourcewatch.org, the Greenbergs were and are connected to the Bush Familia via their Miami-based law firm Greenberg Traurig, LLP, a 1,350-lawyer, full-service international firm. Here are a few connects . . . 1) G-T represented George W. Bush in the Bush-Gore 2000 Florida election vote recount. 2) They personally represent Florida Governor Jeb Bush. 3) They hired son of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia on Election Day 2000 -- after which Justice Scalia cast one of the 5 to 4 deciding votes that placed Bush in the White House. 4) They partially funded/sponsored a delegation to Israel by House-Senate Armed Services Committee members and government contractors to witness and be briefed on interrogations resistance procedures and torture techniques. 5) The firm has prominent administrative positions in Massachusetts 9/11 Fund, which also involves Bush family banking house Brown Brothers Harriman (the same BBH involved with Prescott Bush’s bankrolling the Nazis in World War II). 6) Traurig Greenberg works with 9-11 victims on planning their US government “hushmail/bribery estates.” That is, to receive the money, the victim’s family must sign an agreement never to sue the government for any reason. Victim-wife Ellen Mariani is currently being legally harassed for not signing and for holding the Bush government’s feet to the fire. 7) Bush still owes the Greenberg Traurig firm nearly $1 million for work done by dozens of lawyers and paralegals, leaving questions why a Republican candidate would hire a Democratic lawyer from a Democratic firm. See Greenberg Traurig link above for more scandals. Greenberg’s Relationship to Larry Silverstein   On July 24, 2001, six weeks before 9/11, Larry Silverstein took control of the lease of all the WTC buildings. This followed the Port Authority decision on April 26. According to democraticunderground.com, the three companies who originally insured the WTC were AIG, Marsh and ACE, all run as mentioned by the Greenbergs at the time. They then sold stakes of the original contract to their competition, a technique called reinsuring. Once the Towers came down, the reinsurers got caught holding the bag. This would inextricably tie the Greenbergs to Silverstein and the larger conspiracy of 9/11. If they had no foreknowledge of events to occur, why would the Greenbergs have unloaded so many stakes in their contract? According to Michel Chossudovsky in Financial Bonanza behind the 9/11 Tragedy, “On October 17, 2000, eleven months before 9/11, Blackstone Real Estate Advisors, of The Blackstone Group, L.P, purchased, from Teachers Insurance and Annuity Association, the participating mortgage secured by World Trade Center, Building 7.1.” [Blackstone in 2000 also purchased a 50 percent stake in Universal Studios, producers of the myth-perpetuating Flight 93.] “April 26, 2001 the Port Authority leased the WTC for 99 years to Silverstein Properties and Westfield America Inc. “The transaction was authorised by Port Authority Chairman Lewis M. Eisenberg. This transfer from the New York and New Jersey Port Authority was tantamount to the privatisation of the WTC Complex. The official press release described it as ‘the richest real estate prize in New York City history.’ The retail space underneath the complex was leased to Westfield America Inc. “On 24 July 2001, 6 weeks prior to 9/11 Silverstein took control of the lease of the WTC following the Port Authority decision on April 26. “Silverstein and Frank Lowy, CEO of Westefield Inc. took control of the 10.6 million-square-foot WTC complex. "Lowy leased the shopping concourse called the Mall at the WTC, which comprised about 427,000 square feet of retail space.” “Explicitly included in the agreement was that Silverstein and Westfield ‘were given the right to rebuild the structures if they were destroyed.'’ “In this transaction, Silverstein signed a rental contract for the WTC over 99 years amounting to 3.2 billion dollars in installments to be made to the Port Authority: 800 million covered fees including a down payment of the order of 100 million dollars. Of this amount, Silverstein put in 14 million dollars of his own money. The annual payment on the lease was of the order of 115 million dollars. “In the wake of the WTC attacks, Silverstein is suing for some $7.1 billion in insurance money, double the amount of the value of the 99 year lease.” In fact, some $5 billion was actually returned, given the multiple court-case protests of the insurers. “The mortgaging of the WTC was handled by The Blackstone Group, headed by Peter J. Peterson, current head of the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). The Blackstone Group also bought a piece of Kroll in 1993 at the very same time AIG took over majority control. Henry Kissinger sits on the board of the Blackstone Group.” By his own admission Silverstein had Tower 7 pulled by controlled internal demolition eight hours after the first two hits. No plane hit Tower 7. There were two small fires in it that were under control. In fact, it takes weeks, months to set up a building to be pulled. So his order to “pull it” catches him in a huge lie. Tower 7 may have been the nexus of the operations. That may have been the real reason to pull it. In fact, it may have been set up weeks in advance with Towers 1 and 2 for demolition. Ironically, Tower 7 is the only tower that has been rebuilt, and more opulently than its predecessor, although tenancy is about 18 percent. Towers Taken Down for Profit and to Blame Muslims   Given the involvement of the Greenbergs and Silverstein, and other commercial entities that stood to profit hugely, it is difficult to believe 9/11 occurred at the hands of 19 rag-tag Muslims with box-cutters and the help of their leader, Osama bin Laden, sitting in a cave somewhere in Afghanistan with his laptop and dialysis equipment. The real reasons behind 9/11 were financial greed and the willingness to demonize Muslims for the “Pearl Harbor-type” act that would instigate America to wage a war on terror, pursuing PNAC’s (Project for a New American Century) goal of World Hegemony. The latest documentary on the WTC, The 911 Mysteries from 911WeKnow.com, provides highly convincing proof that the buildings were taken down in six fatal steps. They involved the use of high-powered explosives, including thermite and/or thermate, with techniques more advanced than those of traditional controlled-demolition companies, most likely the military’s, given their bunker buster technology. The six steps are . . . Pre-collapse sub-basement explosions Pre-collapse interior blasts Pre-collapse ground level explosions Top level collapse initiation Mid Collapse Squibs (explosions) Final time-delayed rolls (explosions) Without all these steps, the Towers could never have free-fallen in 10 seconds, the speed of gravity. Any obstacles or pancaking had to be eliminated otherwise the number of seconds of fall would increase dramatically. The documentary also reminds us that on February 13, 1975 there was a major fire on the 11th floor of the North Tower that did not topple it, though the loss was estimated at over $2 million, no mean event. Check it out. It is possible that in 1996, when Securacom took over WTC security and installed a new $8.3 million security system, that the explosives and charges were also put in place. Sitting on the board of Securacom was the director Marvin Bush, George Bush’s younger brother. In any case, this is patently the confluence of the military/industrial complex with a healthy dose of Wall Street, earning millions if not billions in put and call options on companies involved with the catastrophe, including airlines on the down (put) side and military suppliers on the up (call) side. In addition, there is the missing gold from the basement of Tower 4, $200 million of which was retrieved, and an untold amount stolen. The real bottom line was that the Towers were two financial white elephants. And both Silverstein and Greenberg had to know that. The tenancy was dropping. They were out of date. And most dangerously, they were asbestos bombs, loaded with the dangerous building material when they were completed in 1972-73. By law the buildings could not be taken down by internal demolition. And since it would cost a billion dollars or more to take the towers down beam by beam, it would be at great loss to the Port of Authority or its leaseholder. Thus the reasons are obvious to take WTC down in act of terror also a false-flag operation. Remember, the concept for the WTC Towers originated with the Nelson and David Rockefeller, members of the Council on Foreign Relations and among the world’s elites. A “New Pearl Harbor” would serve those interests well. Additional Connections to Greenberg   John O’Neill, mentioned in the first paragraph, was the FBI anti-terror chief who spent years trying to track down bin Laden and “al Qaeda” members. At every point, he was stopped or frustrated by his superiors. Finally, O’Neill parted company with the FBI. Jerome Hauer, who formerly worked for Kroll, got him the job as chief of security at the WTC. On 9/11, O’Neill lost his life in the North Tower. Mr. Hauer’s job as Kroll chief was also held by Michael Cherkasky, who came out of the New York County District Attorney’s Office, which also brought us Rudy Giuliani, Elliot Spitzer and Patrick Fitzgerald. Mr. Cherkasky also brought Mr. Spitzer into the NYC County DA’s office. Today Cherkasky is a substantial contributor to Spitzer’s campaign for New York State Governor. Cherkasky was bumped up to head Marsh McLennan in 2004. As an aside, there were about 200 electrical engineers working in the World Trade Center around the time. Additionally, AMEC and Tully Construction played a major role in the clean up of Ground Zero and both have specialized controlled demolition companies. Lastly, can you believe that one of the Council on Foreign Relations members who engaged President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran in a debate about the holocaust at CFR’s reception last week was none other than Hank Greenberg, who said he witnessed the Dachau camp as Germany fell? Could it all possibly be payback and then some? Jerry Mazza is a freelance writer living in New York. Reach him at [email protected]. http://web.archive.org/web/20061022104812/http:/onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_1261.shtml

[Arnie]

1 minute ago, peter said:

How far away do you think the public were ,how much ambient noise do you think was around, sirens screaming etc and how much noise do you think the building made while is was magically  turning to dust, see the interviews with the first responders in the basement levels with regards to very large explosions  and also others on different levels

 

Lots of questions but none really relevant.  We see the building bowing and giving way. It's right in front of your eyes and impossible to miss. Right there, there ar no thunder clap noises for such a massive building, you would hear this miles away, absolutely miles. I would be staggered if during the fall, people within or below didn't hear insane loud noises.

[TheConsultant]

Just now, Arnie said:

I would be staggered if during the fall, people within or below didn't hear insane loud noises.

Have you seen the Naudet documentary? explosions, loud bangs and deafening noises punctuate the entire day.