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Religious Dogmas And Customs
of the
Egyptians, Pythagoreans and Druids


By John Fellows A.M


Published 1835


The character of the Egyptian writing designed to signify God, was not a simple flame or blaze, as was the general usage of the East but a circle, or rather a sun. They added to the circle or solar globe several marks, or attributes which served to characterize so many different perfections. For instance, in order to indicate that the Supreme Being is the author and preserver of life, they annexed to the circle sometimes two points of flame, but more commonly one or two serpents. This animal was always, among the Egyptians, as in other countries, the symbol of life and health. Not because the serpent makes itself look young again, by every year casting its old skin, but because among most of the eastern nations, as the Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabians and others, with the language of whom that of Egypt had an affinity, the word 'heve' or 'heva' equally signifies life, and a serpent. The name of 'him who is,' the great name of God Jov or Jehova thence draws its etymology. 'Heve' or the name of the common mother of mankind comes likewise from the same word.


(Jehovah = The Sun)


Funeral symbols and Ceremonies
There were near the Egyptian towns a certain ground appointed for the common burying place. Diodorus Siculus, (Biblieth. i. l.) informs us how these tombs were regulated, and in exact description of the burying place, was on the other side of the lake called Acherusia, from - 'acharis, after,' and from - 'ish, man,' comes, - 'acharis ultima hominis' the last condition of man, or rather what follows the death of man. They also say - 'acheron', 'postremum', 'condition ultama' The dead person was brought to the shore of the lake, and to the foot of a tribunal consisting of several judges, who inquired into his life and conversation. When he had not faithfully followed the laws, the body was left unburied, and very likely was thrown into a sort of lay-stall or ditch called Tartarus. This word may come from the Chaldaic, - 'tarah', 'pramonito'. doubling the word. Diodorus informs us, that there was near a town, at a small distance from Memphis a leaking vessel, into which incessantly poured Nile water; which could signify nothing but endless tortures and remorse's. And this single circumstance gives room to think, that the place where the unburied bodies were thrown, was set around with frightful representations.


The Establishment of the laws. Menes
The rural works not being resumed in Egypt, till after the Nile had quitted the plain, they, for this reason, gave the public sign of husbandry the name of Moses or Meseus (saved from the waters;) and on the same account, the moons during which Horus Apollo, or husbandry, continued his exercises, went also by the same name.

About the end of Autumn, the inhabitents being freed from the works of the field, manufactured in their night - work the line thread and cloth, which were one of their chief riches. The sign which was the publication of it, took the name of Linus, which signifies 'watching, the setting up in the night' (-Lyn, to watch) The star that lights the night has on this account retained the same name, and so has the matter itself that was manufactured during those watchings.


This sign has evidently given birth to the tales of Linus, Meseus, Orpheus, Picus, Ganymede, and many other pretended heroes or legislators, of which it is needless to pretend to determine and fix the chronology and the above.


The custom they had, to publish the several regulations concerning policy, by the several postures of the son of Osiris, caused him to be commonly called Menes, that is, 'the rule of the people'. The Egyptians from this new title took it into their heads, that Menes had been their legislator, the author of their polity, the orderer of their year, the founders of their laws. For this reason, they put this imaginary founder at the head of all the lists of the kings of their several provinces.

The name of Moses or Meseus was properly given to the public sign of the revival of husbandry. This word signified the 'drying up', made part of the calendar: it was the summary and the substance of a statute polity. It was every year in the mouth of the people, after the re-entering of the river within its banks. It was not then a mans name. But if Menes and Museus are but one and the same thig; if they are only the names of the same sign; what then becomes of the first king of Egypt, the foundation of their history? He, from that moment, loses all his reality.


Moloch, Baal, Adonis, and Achad.
The god, or rather the figure of the sun, which the Egyptians called Osiris, or the governor of the earth, assumed other names in other places. The eastern nations who had adopted him, and who looked on their temporal advayages as the effect of this devotion, called him Moloch or Melchom, that is the king; some Baal or Adonai, or Adonis, or Hero, all which names signify 'the lord'. Others called him Achad, which the old inhabitents of Latium have rendered by that of 'Sol, unicus'; and others finally named him Baalshamain or Beelsamen - 'the lord of the heavens'. But it was always the sun which these figures of a king and these names signified.


The Roman Catholic processions of the 'Host' are of the same nature as above, and no doubt the custom, like most of the practices of the church of Rome, has been derived from the ancient pagan ceremonies. The catholic processions, it seems, are conducted with more mystic, solem pomp than those of the ancients, but the ruffian assaults of the guards or assistants in this affair, of persons walking in the streets, who are not even in the pale of their order, for neglecting to fall upon their knees, on the passage of the host, is more outrageous than the extravagancies of their prototype.


The masonic processions are identically the same as the Bacchanals, but got up with more taste and refinement, owing to the influence of civilization. In these are carried, besides other articles, which will hereafter ne enumerated, a box or chest, called the lodge, about which much secrecy is pretended, and which is kept covered from the eyes of the profane or uninitiated,. The utmost decorum is observed, and no person is annoyed for not paying homage to the sacred contents of the mysterious chest.


The mark of the rising of the water was a pole crossed; a very plain symbol indeed; and the serpent twisted round it had, in the hand of this figure, no other meaning than elsewhere. It always signified the life, the subsistance. When double, it denoted subsitance in very great plenty, and such was sufficient both for the Egyptians and foreigners. This pole was terminated with two little wings; the symbol of the wind that regulated the increase of the waters.


We have seen how the cross, as well enti_e as abridged, was the mark of the increase of the Nile, because it was the measure of it. When confined in the hand of Osiris, in the claws of the hawk, or the hand of Horus, it very plainly signified the overflowing of the Nile regulated by the sun, strengthened by the wind, and subject to fixed rules. This cross which in their vulgar writing, as likewise in the ancient Hebraic characters, in the Greek and the Latin alphabet, was the letter Tau. 


That the cross or T suspended by a ring, was taken by the Egyptians as deliverance from evil, we may assure ourselves by consulting their practices, which are the surest interpretation of the opinion that governed them.


In the masonic lodges, the master is stationed in the east, representing Osiris the sun; and the senior warden in the west, representing Isis or Virgo, the sign of the harvest; his duty is to pay the craft their wages, which alludes metaphorically to the reward the husbandman receives in produce of his labour, when the sun arrives at this sign. This is indicated by a painting representing a sheaf of wheat, which is hung back of this officers chair. The password of the fellow-craft, at this station, to entitle him to pay, is 'shibboleth', the reddening ear of wheat.

Chapter II
The Ancient Mysteries
To avoid ambiguity, it will be proper to explain the term. Each of the pagan gods had, besides the 'public' and 'open' a 'secret worship' paid unto him; to which none were admitted but thos who ahd been selected by preparatory ceremonies, called 'initiation' This secret worship was termed the 'Mysteries'

But though every god had, besides his open worship, the secret likewise; yet this latter did not everywhere attend the former; but only there, where he was the patron god, or in principal esteem. Thus when in consequence of that intercommunity of paganism, which will be explained hereafter, one nation adopted the gods of another, they did not always take in at the same time, the secret worship or mysteries of that god; so, in Rome, the public and open worship of Bacchus was in use long before his mysteries were admitted. But on the other hand, again, the worship of the strange god was sometimes introduced only for the sake of his mysteries: as, in the same city, that of Isis and Osiris. Thus stood the case in general, the particular exceptions to it, will be seen in the sequel of this dissertation.


The first and original mysteries, of which we have any sure account, were those of Isis and Osiris in Egypt; from whence they were derived to the Greeks, under the presidency of various gods, as the institutor thought most for his purpose; Zoraster bought them into Persia, Cadmus and Inachus into Greece at large, Orpheus into Thrace, Melampus into Argis, Trophonius into Boeotia, Minos into Crete, Cinyras into Cyprus, and Erechtheus into Athens. And as in Egypt they were to Isis and Osiris; so in Asia they were to Mithras, in Samothrace to the mother of the gods, in Boeotia to Bacchus, in Cyprus to Venus, in Crete to Jupiter, in Athens to Ceres and Proserpine, in Amphissa to Castor and Pollux, in Lemnos to Vulcan, and so to others, in other places, the number of which was incredible.


But their end, as well as nature, was the same in all, to teach the doctrine of a 'future estate'. In this Origen and Celsus agree, the two most learned writers of their several parties. The first, minding his adversary of the difference between the future life promised by Christianity, and that taught in paganism, bids him to compare the Christian with what all the sects of philosophy, and all the mysteries, among Greeks and Barbarians, taught concerning it: and Celsus, in his turn, endeavouring to show that Christianity had no advantage over Paganism in the efficacy of stronger sanctions, expresses himself to this purpose; "But now, after all, just as you believe eternal punishments, so do the ministers of the sacred rites, and those who initiate into, and preside in the mysteries"


And that nothing very hetredox was taught in the mysteries concerning a future state, I collect from the answer |Origen makes to Celsus, who had preferred what was taught in the mysteries of Bacchus on that point, to what the Christian religion revealed concerning it.


Opinions on Freemasonry

The chief varieties of this sacred name among the inhabitants of different nations, were Jah, and Bel or Baal, and On or Om. The first of these, as we have just seen, had many fluctuations. Jupiter, Jove, Evohe, etc. were but corruptions of Jah or Jehova. Iao, was pronounced by the oracle of Apollo, to be the first and greatest of these deities. (Macrob. Saturn. 1. 18.)  The compunds of the second name Bel, are of great variety. Belus, was used by the Chaldeans; and the deity known amongst the ancient Celtae, by the name Bel or Bel-enus, which title, by modern authors, is identified with Apollo.


The third variation was On. Under this appellation the deity was worshipped by the Egyptians; and they professed to believe that he was eternal, and the fountain of light and life; but according to their gross conceptions, being necessarily visible, the sun was adored as his representative, and was, most probably the same as Osiris. They knew the general purport of the name and little more. If they believed 'ON' to be the living and eternal God, they allowed the same attributes to the sun, which they undoubtedly worshipped as the Lord of the creation. Oannes was the god of the Chaldeans; and Dag-On of the Philistines, both of which are derivations of the same name. On, was evidently the same deity as the Hebrew Jehovah; and was introduced amongst the Greeks by Plato, who acknowledges his eternity and incomprehensibility in these remarkable words "Tell me of the god ON; which is, and never knew beginning" (In Timoeo. v. iii. p.27) And the smae name was used by the early Christians for the true God; for St. John in the Apocalypse, (Chap. 1. v. 4.) has this expression - 'On, kai o en, kai o erchomenos' which is translated in our authorized version of the Scriptures, by, 'HIM, which is, and which was, and which is to come'


The same word with a small variation, was one of the names of the supreme deity in India; and devout meditation on it was considered capable of conveying the highest degree of perfection.


Chapter VII
Analysis of Freemasonry
I shall now proceed to analyse Freemasonry. And as I conceive it to be no other than the forms and ceremonies of the ancient Pagan religion; that is, Sabeism or the worship of the stars, the following remarks of Volney, on the natural causes which led to this species of worship, will not be amiss:
"The unanimous testimony of all the ancient monuments, presents us a methodical and complicated system, that of the worship of stars, adored sometimes in their proper forms, sometimes under figurative emblems and symbols; and this worship was the effect of the knowledge men had acquired in physics, and was derived immediately from the first causes of the social state, that is, from the necessities and arts of the first degree which are among the elements of society"


The Rv R Taylor, in his lecture on masonry, very ingeniously solves the enigma of the three principal rounds of the aforesaid theological, or rather astronomical ladder, thus:

"Faith is the Genius of Spring; Hope of Summer; and Charity of Autumn - Faith, in Spring, because faith and works must always come together. - Hope, of Summer, because from that point, the sun looks vertically down upon the seeds which have been committed 'in faith' to the fertilizing womb of the earth. - Charity, of autumn, because then the sun empties his cornucopia into our desiring laps. - Faith is the eastern pillar; charity the western; and hope the keystone of this 'Royal Arch' - This theological ladder has seven rounds, and is enigmatically in the degree called Knight of Kardosh, which I shall hereafter notice. It marks the course of the sun through the seven signs of the zodiac, commencing at the vernal equinox, and ending at the autumnal, both inclusive. The semicircle made by the sun in passing these signs, forms the celebrated 'Royal Arch'; and a mason to attain the degree so called, must pass through seven grades of the order. The three steps above noticed, allude to the equinoxes, and the northern solstice"


.....Lord, is a pagan name of the Deity, and answers, says the same author, to the Warts or Mars of the Sabines and Latins.


Royal Arch Degree
There is much confusion, after all, in regard to the 'omnific word' Whether this was created by the original founders of the order, for the purpose of deception, or has been introduced by modern masons, is unknown. After declaring the 'Logos' to be the recovered long lost word, another compound name, intended to bear the same import, is substituted in its place.


This the English masons call Jao-Bul-On, and the American masons, Jah-Buh-Lun. They both say the word is compounded of the names of Deity in three languages, Hebrew, Chaldean and Syriac; leaving Egypt, the mother of the mysteries, from which masonry is derived, out of the question, although 'On', which composes part of the compound word, used by the English masons, was one of the names of the Deity, peculiar to that country.


Neither 'Buh' nor 'Lun', it is believed, was the name of a Deity in any language; and although the sun was worshipped under the symbolical figure of the bull, either on account of his great use in agriculture, or because the celestial sign of the bull was formerly in the vernal equinox at the opening of the year; yet it is evident that the bull was looked upon merely as a symbol, and not as actually constituting the name of the Supreme Being. Whereas Jah-Bel-On, were permanent names, universally, and at times bestowed upon the Deity, by one or other of the nations above mentioned.


"The chief varieties of this sacred name (of God) amongst the inhabitants of different nations (says Oliver) were 'Jah-Bel' or 'Baal' and 'On' or 'Om'"

"Bel or Baal, (says Mayo) was the same god with Moloch. Their names, both of which signify the 'king', the 'lord' are titles applicable to the sun"


The very attribute given to the lost word, 'omnific', (all-creating) indicates the Demiurgus, the creator of the world, which as before observed, was believed by the ancients to be the sun.


It was of no importance to investigate the composition of the 'omnific word' of masonry, any further than to show, that in all the movements of the order, the sun is kept constantly in view; and that the lost master masons word meant nothing but the lost influence of that luminary, when in his greatest northern, or southern declination.


I shall conclude the no??e of this chapter, with a few remarks on the Jewel and Badge of the order. The following is an abridgrement of a description given by Carlile:

The jewel is composed of two intersecting triangles, surrounding another triangle, with the sun in the center, an emblem of the Deity. Under these is the compound character, 'The Triple Tau' (Triple T) which is the Royal Arch mason's badge; by which the wearer acknowledges himself the servant of the 'true' god. (the sun! - my comment)


The T, it has been seen, is the figure of the old Nileometer, used to ascertain the height of inundation, on which depended the subsistence, the 'life' of the inhabitants. The Nileometer, in consequence, became the symbol of 'life', 'health' and 'prosperity'; and was supposed to possess the power of averting evil. It was, therefore, in an abbreviated form, suspended to the neck of the sick as an amulet or charm.


Thus has originated the badge of Royal Arch masonry: its triple form, as usual, relates to the Egyptian trinity.

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The Secret Adam

A Study Of Nasoraean Gnosis


by E.S. Drowser




By the rivers of 'Iraq and especially in the alluvial land of Al-Khaur where the Tigris and Euphrates squander their waters in the marshes, meeting and mating at Qurnah before they flow into the Persian Gulf, and into the lowland of Persia along the Karun, which like its two sister rivers empties into the Gulf, there still dwells the remnant of a handsome people who call themselves 'Mandaiia', Mandeans ('gnostics'), and speak a dialect of Aramaic. When the armies of Islam vanquished the Sassanids they were already there in such numbers that the Qur'an granted them protection as 'people of a book', calling them 'Sabeans'. To that name they still cling, both in literary form and as the vernacular 'as-Subba', for it ensures their existence as a tolerated community. The word (from Syriac) means 'submergers' and refers to their baptism (masbuta) and frequent self-immersion. In the ninth book of 'Fihrist alulum', Al-Nadim, who wrote in the tenth century, calls them 'al-Mughtasilah', 'the self-ablutionists'

I chose none of these names when writing of them in this book for, though this may appear paradoxical, those amongst the community who possess secret knowledge are called 'Nasuriia' - 'Nazoreans' (or, if the heavy 's' is written as 'z', Nazorenes). At the same time the ignorant or semi-ignorant laity are called 'Mandeans', 'Mandaiia' - 'gnostics'. When a man becomes a preist he leaves 'Mandaeanism' and enters 'tarmiduta', 'preisthood' Even then he has not attained true enlightenment, for this, called 'Nasirutha', is reserved for a very few. Those possessed of its secrets call themselves Nasoreans, and 'Nasorean' today indicates not only one who observes all rules of ritual purity, but one who understands the secret doctrine.



Where am I going with this? 


Jesus the Nazarene?


The Christians hold that Jesus was called 'Jesus the Nazarene' because he was from Nazareth. Well the historical record shows that the town of Nazareth did not exist in Jesus' day. It had existed some time before Jesus walked those lands but then it ceased to exist when he was active and was re-established again after his time.


So why Jesus of Nazareth?


According to Madam Blavatsky in Isis unveiled the term 'Nazarene' applied to a religious sect with secret teachings. The term Jesus THE Nazarene refers to the fact that Jesus was the greatest of the Nazarenes and hence he was THE Nazarene.


Now, 40 years later after Blavatsky wrote we find a scholar has researches a semi-secret religious sect who claim to have descended from those lands who call themselves very similarly 'Nasoreans' and claim to have a secret knowledge. This ties in perfectly with Madam Blavatsky claiming Jesus was an adept in a secret order called Nazarenes and this ties in perfectly with Gnostics who claim to have a descended secret knowledge of Jesus and the Bible.


I challenge the Christians - prove to me your saviour was from a town called Nazareth and that Jesus was in fact not an initiate into the Nasorean sect and was schooled in their Gnosis.


Personally I think the similarities are to close to ignore and knowing the town of Nazareth did not exist in Jesus' time just goes to prove that Madam Blavatsky was correct in her occult understanding of our Christian religion. 


Let us not forget Jesus was also an Essene and a Priest in the Order of Melchizedek  and as I believe an initiate in Gnosticism as his title 'Jesus the Nazarene' now suggests with the work of this author. 


Would anyone deny that Jesus, the greatest teacher and prophet, would not know the 'Secret Doctrine'? Can anyone prove that rather than being the designation of an order that Jesus was a member of, it is in fact his postal address of a town that didn't exist in his time?

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From Wiki - 


Nazarene is a title used to describe people from the city of Nazareth in the New Testament (there is no mention of either Nazareth or Nazarene in the Old Testament), and is a title applied to Jesus, who, according to the New Testament, grew up in Nazareth,[1] a town in Galilee, now in northern Israel. The word is used to translate two related terms that appear in the Greek New Testament: Nazarēnos ('Nazarene') and Nazōraios ('Nazorean'). The phrases traditionally rendered as "Jesus of Nazareth" can also be translated as "Jesus the Nazarene" or "Jesus the Nazorean",[2] and the title Nazarene may have a religious significance instead of denoting a place of origin. Both Nazarene and Nazorean are irregular in Greek and the additional vowel in Nazorean complicates any derivation from Nazareth.[3]


Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(title)


Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus the Nazorean, exactly like the Mandaens above. Denoting Jesus as being initiated into a Gnostic Sect.


This Gnostic sect also takes much of its mythology from Egypt, where they found people of similar religious disposition. Just like I have been trying to illustrate in this thread, Christianity, Judaism and onward into Freemasonry ALL draw their teachings from ancient Egypt. It is the worship of the Trinity - Osiris, Isis and Horus, which are representative of the Pagan practices of worshipping the Sun, Nature and the Spiritual or Mystical aspect of existence, which always results in a part human saviour King who is born of man and rules with Divine authority.


According to Dupuis, this is the root of ALL religious systems extant.

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On 2/26/2022 at 12:25 PM, Mitochondrial Eve said:

Whilst I have some sympathy with this philosophy, there are a couple of pitfalls I see with this approach.


Hi, as I have not  responded to this post, I thought I would explain why, so you, and nobody else reading thinks I'm ignoring it.


(Sorry its taken so long)


I think you've presented a rational alternative view to the philosophy in my post, and I am happy to let it stand, unchallenged, so anyone can make up their own mind. As is evident, others are in agreement or sympathy with you.


It is of course the purpose of these forums to exchange ideas, so thank you for contributing and presenting this view.



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  • 1 month later...
On 4/23/2022 at 4:12 PM, pi3141 said:

Just like I have been trying to illustrate in this thread, Christianity, Judaism and onward into Freemasonry ALL draw their teachings from ancient Egypt.

No, this conflict is symbolised by the Staff of Asclepius (from the contest between Moses and the Egyptian magicians). There's a possible connection between the Sanctuary of Asclepius at Pergamon and the seat of Satan of Revelation 2:13. Pergamon is the northernmost of the seven "churches" of Revelation.

Then he brought me to the door of the gate of YHWH's house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.

Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these.

Ezekiel 8:14-15

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/23/2021 at 1:24 PM, pi3141 said:

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross

The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross: A Study of the Nature and Origins of Christianity Within the Fertility Cults of the Ancient Near East is a 1970 book about the linguistics of early Christianity and fertility cults in the Ancient Near East. It was written by John Marco Allegro (1923–1988).[1][2]



The book relates the development of language to the development of myths, religions, and cultic practices in world cultures. Allegro argues, through etymology, that the roots of Christianity, and many other religions, lay in fertility cults, and that cult practices, such as ingesting visionary plants to perceive the mind of God, persisted into the early Christian era, and to some unspecified extent into the 13th century with reoccurrences in the 18th century and mid-20th century, as he interprets the fresco of the Plaincourault Chapel to be an accurate depiction of the ritual ingestion of Amanita muscaria as the Eucharist. Allegro argued that Jesus never existed as a historical figure and was a mythological creation of early Christians under the influence of psychoactive mushroom extracts such as psilocybin.[1]


His claims have often been subject to ridicule and scorn due to Allegro's unconventional theory. As Time magazine put it in an article headed "Jesus as mushroom":[3]


To some biblical scholars in Britain, the new book looked like the psychedelic ravings of a hippie cultist. To others, it was merely an outlandish hoax. One described it as reading "like a Semitic philologist's erotic nightmare."[3]


Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Mushroom_and_the_Cross


The use of Visionary plants in Religion throughout history is well attested to.




The Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church



With offerings of devotion, ships from the isles will meet to pour the wealth of the nations and bring tribute to his feet. The Coptic Church believes fully the teachings of the Bible, and as such we have our daily obligations, and offer our sacrifices, made by fire unto our God with chants and Psalms and spiritual hymns, lifting up holy hands and making melody in our hearts.


Herb (marijuana) is a Godly creation from the beginning of the world. It is known as the weed of wisdom, angel's food, the tree of life and even the "Wicked Old Ganja Tree". Its purpose in creation is as a fiery sacrifice to be offered to our Redeemer during obligations. The political worldwide organizations have framed mischief on it and called it drugs. To show that it is not a dangerous drug, let me inform my readers that it is used as food for mankind, and as a medicinal cure for diverse diseases. Ganja is not for commerce; yet because of the oppression of the people, it was raised up as the only liberator of the people, and the only peacemaker among the entire generation. Ganja is the sacramental rights of every man worldwide and any law against it is only the organized conspiracy of the United Nations and the political governments who assist in maintaining this conspiracy.


The Coptic Church is not politically originated, and this was firmly expressed when we met with the political directorate of the land during the period of pre-incorporation. We support no political organization, pagan religion, or commercial institution, seeing that religion, politics, and commerce are the three unclean spirits which separate the people from their God. Because of our non-political stand, the church has received tremendous opposition from the politicians, who do not want the eyes of the people to be opened. Through its agency, the police force, the church has been severely harassed, victimized, and discriminated. Our members have passed through several acts of police brutality, our legal properties maliciously destroyed, members falsely imprisoned, divine services broken up and all these atrocities performed upon the Church, under the name of political laws and their justice.

Walter Wells -- Elder Priest of the Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church of Jamaica, West Indies



The use of marijuana is as old as the history of man and dates to the prehistoric period. Marijuana is closely connected with the history and development of some of the oldest nations on earth.


It has played a significant role in the religions and cultures of Africa, the Middle East, India, and China Richard E. Schultes, a prominent researcher in the field of psychoactive plants, said in an article he wrote entitled "Man and Marijuana":


"...that early man experimented with all plant materials that he could chew and could not have avoided discovering the properties of cannabis (marijuana), for in his quest for seeds and oil, he certainly ate the sticky tops of the plant. Upon eating hemp the euphoric, ecstatic and hallucinatory aspects may have introduced man to an other-worldly plane from which emerged religious beliefs, perhaps even the concept of deity.

The plant became accepted as a special gift of the gods, a sacred medium for communion with the spiritual world and as such it has remained in some cultures to the present."


The effects of marijuana was proof to the ancients that the spirit and power of the god(s) existed in this plant and that it was literally a messenger (angel) or actually the Flesh and Blood and/or Bread of the god(s) and was and continues to be a holy sacrament. Considered to be sacred, marijuana has been used in religious worship from before recorded history.


According to William A. Embolden in his book Ritual Use of Cannabis Sativa L, p. 235:

"Shamanistic traditions of great antiquity in Asia and the Near East has as one of their most important elements the attempt to find God without a vale of tears; that cannabis played a role in this, at least in some areas, is born out in the philology surrounding the ritualistic use of the plant. Whereas Western religious traditions generally stress sin, repentance, and mortification of the flesh, certain older non-Western religious cults seem to have employed Cannabis as a euphoriant, which allowed the participant a joyous path to the Ultimate; hence such appellations as "heavenly guide".


According to "Licit and Illicit Drugs" by the Consumer Union, page 397-398:

"Ashurbanipal lived about 650 B.C., but the cuneiform descriptions of marijuana in his library "are generally regarded as obvious copies of much older texts." Says Dr. Robert P. Walton, an American physician and authority on marijuana, "This evidence serves to project the origin of hashish back to the earliest beginnings of history."


Link - Marijuana and the Bible by The Ethiopian Zion Coptic Church (druglibrary.org)


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Cannabis Was Main Anointing Oil Ingredient Used By Jesus
by Russell Dibird | Jul 1, 2021 |


Jesus took on the title of Christ, which means Annointed And ANNOINTER. Then He personally anointed many people, with cannabis compounds. Before Jesus, cannabis was exclusive to rituals performed by the priest class, He brought it to the people.


“The discovery of cannabis residue on an ancient altar in Israel is presented with amazement by the archaeologists although one wonders where they have been for the last century. The kaneh-bosem of Exodus was identified as cannabis by Sula Benet nearly a century ago and has been the subject of numerous works since. Similar archaeological evidence is confirming the use of other drugs in Classical Greco-Roman and Judeo-Christian antiquity and is presented by scholars who apparently come upon their discoveries in vacuo.”

-Professor Carl Ruck on the archaeological proof of cannabis in ancient Judaic ritual that was found in the temple site at Arad, Jerusalem


Link - https://nonorthodoxy.com/2021/07/01/cannabis-was-main-anointing-oil-ingredient-used-by-jesus/



First, Jesus is a fictional name and a fictional character used as a vehicle to relay stories which contain spiritual truth. Second, the name Jesus means 'Sun God' and the title 'Christ' means 'Anointed' Hence in the name Jesus Christ it appears we can trace Christianity's roots to Sun worship AND psychoactive plant veneration as a means to communicate with God.


John Allegro was not wrong.


The use of visionary plants has played a huge role in religion throughout history including Christianity.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 7/5/2022 at 4:40 PM, Edgewood said:

Time and time again Jesus shows that he is aware of the quantum nature of the realm of God:


"The Kingdom of God is inside/within you (and all about you), not in buildings/mansions of wood and stone. (When I am gone) Split a piece of wood and I am there, lift the/a stone and you will find me."

When you split wood or lift a stone, you expose it to light.... That is where you will find God.


Here's my interpretation of that parable, The Gospel of Thomas version


On 9/24/2021 at 12:37 PM, pi3141 said:

From the Gospel of Thomas


Jesus said: I am the light that is above them all. I am the all; the all came forth from me, and the all attained to me. Cleave a (piece of) wood; I am there. Raise up a stone, and you will find me there.


What do you see occupying the space where a stone was when you lift it? What can now penetrate between the sticks if you split a piece of wood? 




What is the light above all living things?


The Sun


Jesus is telling you he is the Sun.


Why would he do that in his secret sayings? He is taking on the form or allegory or myth or legend that is built around the Pagan sun worship. he is speaking their language, he is assuming their mythology to show he understands it, he 'knows'


If I went to India and started speaking Christian things to them in English they wouldn't understand a word of it and I wouldn't convert many people. If I learn to speak the language and learn the phrases and sayings and myths and allegories and speak to them with those terms and ideals they will understand me better.


This is why the man we know as Jesus is taking on the allegory of Solar worship - to own it. To assimilate the knowledge, to honor it and to pass it forward and to be speaking in terms the people can understand. The early converts were converting from Solar and Nature worship to something higher spiritually. You have to imagine people were not as civilized 2000 years ago as they are now, this was all part of the conversion from sacrificial and fire worshiping pagans to people of higher spiritual stature.


If Jesus is the Sun and he is also A Son of God then where is God? God is the creator of the Sun (Let there be light) and the creator of Jesus the man and us. So Jesus is sweeping away the Pagan solar worship, framing himself as the Sun and pointing to a higher God than the Sun, which is the truth.


When you stoop down to pick up the rock, you see light beneath it, to find the source of the light, you have to look backwards, over your shoulder to find the source. The allegory does the same, Jesus the Man picks up the stone, he looks behind him to see the source of light, but Jesus looks beyond the light to see the true creator, the line of succession, if you will. He alludes to that which created the Sun, and it follows, the Universe and all the stars - Creation.


Jesus is showing us the succession, yes we derive life from the Sun but the true power is that which created the Sun which our life is sustained from.


While I accept the analogy that God is Light, and we all have a divine spark within us, I see a more complicated theory than its just Light. 

It is Light, but what is Light, it is on the Electromagnetic spectrum, its not 'just' Light.


I'm sure your aware the term Light is used as an metaphor for various interpretations. Same thing here - it points the way to an idea, that has basis in truth.

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8 hours ago, pi3141 said:


Here's my interpretation of that parable, The Gospel of Thomas version



When you stoop down to pick up the rock, you see light beneath it, to find the source of the light, you have to look backwards, over your shoulder to find the source. The allegory does the same, Jesus the Man picks up the stone, he looks behind him to see the source of light, but Jesus looks beyond the light to see the true creator, the line of succession, if you will. He alludes to that which created the Sun, and it follows, the Universe and all the stars - Creation.


Jesus is showing us the succession, yes we derive life from the Sun but the true power is that which created the Sun which our life is sustained from.


While I accept the analogy that God is Light, and we all have a divine spark within us, I see a more complicated theory than its just Light. 

It is Light, but what is Light, it is on the Electromagnetic spectrum, its not 'just' Light.


I'm sure your aware the term Light is used as an metaphor for various interpretations. Same thing here - it points the way to an idea, that has basis in truth.




There's more to it that deriving life from the sun. It's not just about the sun....it's about Electromagnetism is general.


And it's not an analogy. It is literal. God is LITERALLY light.  Consciousness is a form of EM energy.


If you study the nature of light you will find some amazing things.


There's a book about the very subject I could perhaps recommend to you......






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3 hours ago, Edgewood said:

There's more to it that deriving life from the sun. It's not just about the sun....it's about Electromagnetism is general.


And it's not an analogy. It is literal. God is LITERALLY light.  Consciousness is a form of EM energy.


If you study the nature of light you will find some amazing things.


There's a book about the very subject I could perhaps recommend to you......



How did this end up on this thread, I meant to take my quote and add it to the other thread.


Oh well.


Anyway, I agree to an extent, I agree conciousness is EM energy, I know our being is EM, and as an engineer I know energy can't be created or destroyed, only transformed, hence I believe when we die our energy is transformed into another 'realm'


But it is EM energy, of which Light is a part of and there are 2 main aspects, the electrical part and the magnetic part (plus the S flow) - both play a role.


Magnetism is not light but forms a substantial part of EM energy, I've read time slows in a magnet and magnets can store so much information about the Universe and it history, magnetism and electrical energy probably influences Gravity, hence the Magnetic portion is an important part of our and probably Gods existence. 


We see the divine spark as Light, but its more than just Light, unless you are considering its Magnetic part and Gravitational part as well. I assume when you say Light you mean Photons.


Wish I could explain it better, but my mind is not as sharp as it used to be and I've forgot most of what I've read.


I think we have to consider Light, the EM energy (of which we don't fully understand) Gravity and how that all ties into Frequency (Vibrations and Harmonics etc) I'm sure you've heard of the music of the spheres etc


The eternal and infinite being that is God is more than just Light. 


If you have any books to recommend I'd be interested.


To my mind, you resonate at a frequency, when you die you carry that frequency over and once in that sea of energy your vibration will settle where it resonates - your Heaven, this is all electrical. Maybe, when we ascend higher we take on more properties of light to become light bodies, but you still won't completely lose your magnetic or electical parts.


I'm not explaining it well but when you say 'God is Light' I hear it in a 3D Newtonian sense and God is beyond such definition.

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Some people point to the Jewish faith, with its racist and supremacist ideology, and conclude that as its contains within it these ideologies, it must be a Jewish conspiracy. They further point to the domination of certain industries by Jews as further proof and the fact that Judaism was the first religion.


The Roman Catholic Church has been involved in the conspiracy for 2000 years, it has played its own, massive role, in shaping and controlling our Western society for all that time, its is a source of evil - just like Judaism. Yet the people who point to Judaism completely ignore the role of the RC church and some even support the RC church.

In fact some people actually think the RC church has been a force for good for while condemning Judaism - this huge Cognitive Dissonance and massively misses the truth in my opinion.


I own the Zohar, Sefer Yetzirah and The Bahir, but I haven't read the whole Talmud and I've read some of the Old Testament. I know from research that their are ideologies within the Talmud I don't agree with.


Judaism is part of the conspiracy problem, big part, but you cannot say that it is the origin, I know that not to be true, and thus Judaism is not at the top. An old rule in Conspiracy and of course Intelligence fields, if they are visible, they are not at the top. There may be sects with beliefs within Judaism that are far worse than the rest, but they are just as controlled, if not more so and worse.

So lets look back in history. What do we know, we know the Jews were in captivity in Babylon and while in Babylon they found their religion and took it with them when they escaped. 


Think about that, the Jews were 'given' their religion and secret Kabbalah knowledge while in captivity in Babylon. 


Who gave it to them?


Some 'people' were able to create and invent a religion with a load of magical knowledge complete with codes and symbols based on knowledge that stretched back thousands of years and gave that knowledge in the form of religion to their slaves.




Babylon was awash with Pagan Mystery schools of all sorts, there were many spiritually and magically advanced people in Babylon at that time.


We know Judaism and Christianity is based on earlier Pagan teachings, mostly it all goes back to the Trinitarian religions of Egypt thousands of years before the Jews were in Babylon. The Ten commandments probably came from the Egyptian book of the dead, the Biblical flood came from Epic of Gilgamesh stories 1800 years older than written in the Torah and the Bible!


According to the scholarly work in the Anchor Bible series - 





(Regarding the sources of the Bible - D, P, E etc)


When we re-examine, for instance, the genealogies of the patriarchs before the flood (cf.v), the style and approach are unmistakenly P's, yet the material has to be derived from ancient data. The same applies to the Edomite lists in ch. xxxvi. Just so - to stray for a moment from the book of Genesis - the census records in Numbers xxvi, although again set down by P, deal with the names and situations (notably the distribution of land holdings by lot) that go back by neccessity to the eaaly stages of Israelite settlements in Caanan. At the same time, there are other passages throughout the Tetrateuch that are undoubtedly much later. All this testifies to a wide coverage by P, ranging over many centuries. The conclusion that is usually drawn from these facts is that we have before us a series of seperate P documents, as many as ten according to some critics. But such solutions fail to account for the prevailing uniformity in outlook and phraseology which typifies P as a whole.


The assumption that commends itself in these circumstances is that P was not an individual, or even a group of like minded contemporaries, but a school with an unbroken history reaching back to early Israelite times, and continuing to the Exodus and beyond.






There were people, who already had knowledge of magic and spiritual teachings, stretching back thousands of years, that were able to invent and give away a religion to their captives. Those people were spiritual masters compared to the Jews.


We know now, the people that gave the Jews Judaism had spiritual knowledge and a tradition preceding Judaism by thousands of years - as it is proven the Flood myth among others were taken from earlier writings dating back at least 1500 years before the creation of Judaism.


So the Jews are not at the top, there are many Jews, Christians and Muslims who have nothing to do with the conspiracy and are just good people leading their lives. But it would appear the religion they have been given was meant to cause the problems we see today - the ones we see who are involved at the top, are useful idiots in the grand conspiracy, public useful idiots - as also there are in the Christian and Islamic religions - because all these religions derive from the same source and are created for a purpose.


The enemy is that source.


That source is the real 'Them'


Religions are their weapon.



See here - 



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The Lords prayer has many variations, depending on your specific denomination. But have you ever wondered what the original prayer was?


The Lords prayer as we know it was changed to 'Our Father, who art in Heaven' by King Henry the VIII


Here are some versions, taken from the originals.


Nazarene, as in Jesus the Nazarene or Nasorean.


Oh Thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.
May Your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.
Your Heavenly Domain approaches.
Let Your will come true - in the universe just as on earth.
Give us wisdom for our daily need, detach the
fetters of faults that bind us, like we let go the guilt of others.
Let us not be lost in superficial things, but
let us be freed from that what keeps us from our true purpose.
From You comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that
beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.
Sealed in trust, faith and truth, I confirm with my entire being.


from Aramaic into Old English
Translation by G.J.R. Ouseley from The Gospel of the Holy Twelve

Our Father-Mother Who art above and within:
Hallowed be Thy Name in twofold Trinity.
In Wisdom, Love and Equity Thy Kingdom come to all.
Thy will be done, As in Heaven so in Earth.
Give us day by day to partake of Thy holy Bread, and the fruit of the living Vine.
As Thou dost forgive us our trespasses, so may we forgive others who trespass against us.
Shew upon us Thy goodness, that to others we may shew the same.
In the hour of temptation, deliver us from evil.



Aramaic directly into modern English


“O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration, soften the ground of our being and carve out a space within us where your Presence can abide.

Fill us with your creativity so that we may be empowered to bear the fruit of your mission.

Let each of our actions bear fruit in accordance with our desire.

Endow us with the wisdom to produce and share what each being needs to grow and flourish.

Untie the tangled threads of destiny that bind us, as we release others from the entanglement of past mistakes.

Do not let us be seduced by that which would divert us from our true purpose, but illuminate the opportunities of the present moment.

For you are the ground and the fruitful vision, the birth, power, and fulfillment, as all is gathered and made whole once again.

And So It Is!”



So our 'Father' was not the original, no doubt changed by Men with agenda's.


We know God to not be anthropomorphic, it is an energy, subtle, luminous, infinite, eternal, it cannot be described in Human terms.


My argument is this, its the Female of the species that gives birth, this is generally natural law, if God is an infinite energy field its neither Male or Female but more likely to be closer to the Female energy than Male, although as a 'Perfect Being' it would most likely be both.


It says in Genesis and He made them in His image, well if Man and Woman was created in Gods image then God is both a Male and Female - right?


Says so in the Bible. 


This notion that God is a He is, once again, rooted in Paganism. It was based on a simplistic view of nature and formed out of Nature and Fertility worshiping cults, which was adopted by the Christians to help convert the Pagans. Pagan priests were known as 'Pater' meaning 'Father' I have a strong suspicion that that is why the RC church chose 'Peter' as its leader.


Once again the truth has been changed to alter religious worship.



Link s


The Our Father in Original Aramaic – a wow sensation

Link - https://readsuzette.com/lords-prayer-original-aramaic/



The Nazarene Way of Essenic Studies
~ The Lord's Prayer ~
Translations from Aramaic, Origins and History of The Lord's Prayer

Link - https://www.thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm


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I hope readers will appreciate, that many of the quoted works on this thread are only available as scanned document and as well as sourcing them, I have had to manually copy the extracted references to the computer. 


A bit of effort has gone into bringing this information to light.

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My latest read - 



The Origins and Early Development of the Antichrist Myth

Gregory Charles Jenks


The series Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für die neutestamentliche Wissenschaft (BZNW) is one of the oldest and most highly regarded international scholarly book series in the field of New Testament studies. Since 1923 it has been a forum for seminal works focusing on Early Christianity and related fields. The series is grounded in a historical-critical approach and also explores new methodological approaches that advance our understanding of the New Testament and its world.


Abstract and Acknowledgments


This thesis represents the result of investigations into the origins and development of the Antichrist myth in early Christianity. Research into this question developed a broad character, requiring attention to a wide range of Jewish and Christian literature from the period ca 200 BCE to 300 CE. Where many doctoral studies involve detailed attention to a relatively small field, this topic has required a different approach. Instead of close attention to a single text or passage, or the views of one particular person, this research has involved the examination of numerous ancient texts from diverse backgrounds and attention to a large body of secondary literature. It is an attempt at a synthesis, and as such it builds on the detailed work of numerous other scholars who have invested their labours in the specific texts and issues. At the same time, this study does offer detailed proposals on specific matters of interpretation and, in particular, takes issue with the majority views on the origins and development of the Antichrist myth.



My extracts - 





PssSol 2:22ff

them on their heads; to declare dishonourable the arrogance of the dragon. And I did not wait long until God showed me his insolence pierced on the mountains of Egypt, more despised than the smallest thing on earth and sea. His body was carried about on the waves in much shame, and there was no one to bury him, for God despised him with contempt. [OTP, 11,653]

Endtyrant Traditions prior to 70 CE 239


Yarbro Collins has established the influence of the much older 'combat myth" traditions in ch 12, and throughout Revelation as a whole.38 The elements of the combat myth can be readily identified in ch 12.39


Table Til
Combat Myth Pattern in Rev 12
A. The Dragon (vs 3)
B. Chaos and Disorder (vs 4a)
C. The Attack (vs 4b)
D. The Champion (vs 5a)
E. The Champion's "Death" (vs 5b)
G. The Champion's Recovery (vs 7a)
H. Battle Renewed and Victory Attained (vss 7b-9)
I. Restoration and Confirmation of the Champion (yss 10-12a)
F. The Dragon's Reign (vss 12b-17)


It is clear that older traditions have been used and blended to form the present narrative in ch 12.40 Collins identifies the likely versions of the ancient combat myth traditions which have been used to create ch 12,41 but there is no significance for this study in the details of those older "sources". While ultimately drawing on very ancient sources, as well as more contemporary hellenistic traditions, the material had probably already been adapted by Jewish use before the author reworked it for his own purposes.


P240 The Emerging Antichrist Myth


The aim of the writer would seem to have been to identify the empire and its official cultus of the emperor with the embodiment of evil. Apart from its value as an example of anti-Roman polemic, and its testimony to the continued use of ancient mythic traditions in the middle years of the first century CE, the use of the dragon figure in Revelation provides little of relevance to the origins of the Antichrist myth. Its main value lies in the way that the old dragon imagery from the combat myth has been employed to represent the Satan figure, and to associate that figure with the appearance and activity of the two beasts in ch 13. Each of those beasts will now be examined briefly.


(b) The Beast from the Sea 
Unlike the dragon figure, which was a clearrepresentation of the traditional Satan figure, the beast from the sea has noclear parallels in any of the other mythological figures known in apocalyptic literature. To the extent that the beast from the sea was intended torepresent a human being, the nearest analogies would have to be the Endtyrant figures developed in Daniel (Antiochus Epiphanes) and Paul's man of lawlessness in 2 Thessalonians 2.42


The figure of the beast from the sea was fashioned in part directly from the dragon, whose likeness it would bear in many respects, and whose purposes it would serve. It may also have been fashioned partly from the descriptions in Dan 7:3-6, where a series of beasts come up out of the sea and are described as being like a lion, bear and leopard respectively. The portrait of this beast really develops the sea-monster side of the dragon/sea-monster imagery, of which the figure in ch 12 represents the traditional dragon aspect.


This beast, the first of the dragon's monstrous creatures, is the most important of the three evil figures. It is usually spoken of in the Apocalypse simply as "the beast", without need of qualification. It is the figure of most interest for the present study. As the second member of an evil trio, it represents an implicit contrast to the Christ figure. While strict trinitarian schemes are anachronistic in this period, the beast from the sea could have been seen as the "firstborn of Satan", a title applied to Marcion by Polycarp in the second century and used by him as a synonym for the Antichrist43 It is not surprising, then, that this figure has usually been identified as the Antichrist by both ancient and modern commentators.


Beasley-Murray illustrates this traditional interpretation of the beast. In a passage which is reminiscent of Hippolytus' programmatic description of the Antichrist, 44 Beasley-Murray writes, the Antichrist is presented as the Christ of Satan. He has ten diadems (13:1), as the Christ has many diadems (19:12). He has a blasphemous name (13:1), over against the worthy name of the Christ (e.g., 19:11,12,16). He causes men to worship Satan, while the Christ brings men to worship and serve God (1:6, etc). He has had a wound to death, but lives (13:3,12,14) in a monstrous imitation of the Christ who died and rose from death. He has the power and the throne and the authority of the Devil (13:2), as the Christ shares the power and authority and throne of God (12:5 and 10). The second beast, called by John the false prophet (16:13) ..... performs the kind of prophetic activity in relation to the Antichrist that the Holy Spirit does in relation to Christ.45


The description of the first beast can be understood, as indicated above, as the development of the sea-monster side of the traditional dragon imagery in ancient mythology. This can be seen in the description of the beast from the sea, in terms which belong to the old sea-monster myth, as a seven-headed red coloured sea monster. The idea doubtless goes back ultimately to such traditions.


Far from being a blessing to civilised society, the Roman empire, symbolised by the the beast and personified in its various heads (= emperors), is deliberately vilified by association with the Satan figure of the dragon. The deep significance of this satanic association is underlined by the use of the ancient combat myth traditions still well-known in Asia at the time.46 Rome is seen as an "evil empire", the epitome of chaos and disorder — quite a realistic view for a Jewish writer ca 68/69 CE.


These ancient combat myth traditions were also well established in Jewish and Christian apocalyptic thought and, given the author's evident familiarity with the OT tradition, probably were primarily mediated to him through that literature. The description of the beast from the sea has many points which reflect the influence of these traditions. The influence of Daniel 7 seems to be unmistakable throughout this description of the beast.47 The description drew on Dan 7:3ff, reversing the order of animal comparisons and blending them all into a single beast probably intended as an equivalent of the fierce and terrible fourth beast of Dan 7:7. The mouth which spoke "great and blasphemous things" was probably modelled on Dan 7:8,20,25 and 11:36,48 as was the duration of beast's authority for forty-two months (cf. Dan 7:25; 9:24-27; 12:7) and the persecution of the holy ones by the evil figure (cf. Dan 7:25).


There are also parallels to early Christian apocalyptic traditions, as in the working of signs and wonders through satanic empowerment. This is also seen in the earliest Christian eschatological traditions represented by the eschatological discourses in the synoptic gospels and by Paul's apocalyptic teaching in 2 Thessalonians.49 There are sufficient similarities in this reworking of traditional apocalyptic material to indicate that the writer was working with ideas with which his readers would have been familiar. As in other Christian apocalyptic material, the opponents of God unwittingly serve as agents of wrath on the wicked.


In this case, the beast from the sea and its colleague from the land act as agents of God's purposes even when they think that they are opposing him at the behest of the dragon. This aspect is especially clear in 17:15f where the two beasts are said to turn against the harlot, Rome, in response to God having put it into their hearts to carry out his purposes.


There are some aspects of this description of the beast from the sea which indicate the influence of the Nero redivivus myth.50 These include the reference to the mortal wound received by one of the beast's heads and the survival of that head;51 the name of the beast and its number which would be used as a mark, to indicate a person's submission to the cult of the beast;52 the use of Apollyon in 9:11;53 and the description of Rome being destroyed by fire in 17:16.5* Despite the occasional protest,55 it seems certain that the Apocalypse reflects the view, current after Nero's death and at its height ca 69 CE, that the world had not seen the last of him.

A. Bell lists the Neronic pretenders that appeared in 69, 79 and 88 CE, noting that the latter two were insignificant compared with the impact of the first pretender in 69.56 Such occurences were noted by Tacitus in his History (II.8f). Tacitus begins his description:


About this time Achaia and Asia Minor were terrified by a false report that Nero was at hand, Various rumours were current about his death; and so there were many who pretended and believed that he was still alive. [ET from A.J.Church W.Y. Brodribb, Tacitus, 480]


Tacitus then continued with a detailed account of the appearance of this pretender in 69 CE, his initial success, and his demise. See also Hist. 1.2 for another brief mention of this particular pretender.


The wounded head which was healed is generally recognised as a deliberate parody of the death and resurrection of Jesus.57 The phrase, ως έσφαγημενην εΰς θοίνατον ["as if slain unto death" (13:3)], seems to have been intended as a parallel to the description of Jesus as the άρνύον ... ως έσφαγμένον ["a lamb ... as if slain" (5:6)]. It is also likely that the description of the beast as "one [who] was, is not, and shall be" (17:8, 11) was intended as a parody of the death, resurrection/ascension and return of Christ. Yarbro Collins comments,


The force of the parody requires an individual who not only died but also rose from the dead. The only emperor who could conceivably be cast in this role is Nero.58

The significance of this insight for the purposes of the present study is enormous. As will be seen when the relevance of the material in the Apocalypse is considered shortly, it may be that the writer gave the traditions at his disposal a new form. He thus either created the form in which the Antichrist myth would later be known, or he gave that process definitive momentum by his adoption and adaption of the Nero legend.


It is clear that the writer wanted to characterise the empire generally as satanic, and yet wished to focus on the personification of the empire in the person and activities of the emperor. The interplay between the beast and its heads allows the author to do this, even though it also complicates the task of interpretation. In ch 17 this is further complicated by the addition of another figure, the harlot, to represent the city of Rome, with its ambivalent relationship to empire and emperor.

To the question of how best to understand the meaning of the beast from the sea, must be added issues concerning the anti-Roman attitudes which lay behind the use of the Nero myth. The writer refuses any invitation for Christians to demonstrate their loyalty to Caesar by making the appropriate sacrifice. Instead, Rome will suffer for its role as an ally of the satanic powers seen to be vested in its leaders and their cult. These attitudes are not that dissimilar to those expressed in the Sibylline Oracles.59


(c) The Beast from the Earth The description of the third member of this evil trio was fashioned partly from elements in the preceding descriptions of the dragon and the beast, and partly from other elements. It may have owed something to the description of the ram with two horns in Daniel 8, but it may also have been fashioned partly on the model of the lamb imagery for Jesus. In Rev 19:20 the earth beast is explicitly identified as a false prophet who serves the purposes of the beast from the sea and, through it, the dragon.


If the first beast was modelled on the previously undeveloped aspects of the dragon/sea-monster imagery and represented an adaptation of the idea of Leviathan, the seven-headed serpent in the depths of the sea (cf. Isa 27:1), then this second beast may itself be seen as a blending of the parallel figure of Behemoth with the ram imagery of Daniel 8. In ancient sources, as in first century Jewish apocalyptic traditions, Leviathan and Behemoth, the seamonster and the land-monster respectively, played important roles in mythic conceptions of the Urzeit and the Endzeit.60


In Revelation it would seem that the model of Daniel 8 has been used so that as the description of the ram there followed that of the terrible fourth beast in ch 7, so here the beast from the land is described as having two horns like a lamb and yet still retains its bestial character since it speaks like a dragon.61 There may be a deliberate contrast intended between the Christ figure portrayed as a lamb (Rev 5:6-1*; 7:9-17; 14:1-5; etc), and if this is so then it would tend to undermine the traditional interpretation of the first beast as an Antichrist figure.62


The beast which most clearly represents a deliberate antithesis to the representation of the Christ figure in Revelation is the beast from the land, yet it is also clear that this beast was understood as a false prophet and not as an Antichrist.63 The second beast acts in ways traditionally associated with false prophets (incorrect teaching, impressive signs done with Satanic power, etc) and was explicitly named as a false prophet in 19:20 and 20:10.64


This beast had a secondary role in the writer's vision of things, but a key role just the same. It exercised the authority of the first beast and was to promulgate the message of that creature. It would persuade all the inhabitants of the earth to worship the first beast, and encourage them to create an image of the beast to which it would give the power to breathe and talk.65 


It would use economic and social pressures to ensure submission to the new cult by excluding from normal commercial and social intercourse those who refuse to bear the mark of the beast. This beast was both the recruiting officer and the enforcer of the new religion.66


In the end, even this creature turns out, to the eye of faith, to be an unwitting servant of the divine purposes: a cipher who would finally fall under judgment along with those it had misled. Like its more important bestial colleague, the creature from the land would eventually be cast into eternal torment where they will ultimately be joined by their creator, the dragon.


R.H. Charles argued that behind Rev 13:11-18 lay a Jewish Antichrist source.67 This material was written in Hebrew, according to Charles, and survives in vss 11, 12ab, 13-14ab, 16a,d and 17a.68 Charles proposed that the original Jewish version "dealt with a conception of the Jewish Antichrist such as we find in 2 Thess. ii", but he was unable to put a date to it.69 Charles believed that Rev 13:11-18 originally spoke of a false prophet, not a beast from the land. He argued that the reading, άλλο θπρυον ["another beast"], in 13:11 was a deliberate change from an original source with the reading ψευδο-προφι^την. He supposed that this change was designed to transform a formerly independent Antichrist figure into "a mere agent" of the Antichrist, subsequent to the author combining two earlier Antichrist traditions into a composite account in ch 13 with its double figures.


While it is clear that Revelation has used and adapted older Jewish, and non-Jewish, ideas in chs 12f, it is not necessary to postulate the existence of a written Jewish Antichrist source in order to understand the literary data found in ch 13. The extant material in Daniel, in other pseudepigrapha such as those examined in this study, and general Christian eschatological traditions, are quite sufficient without the need of recourse to the hypothetical literary sources so popular around the turn of the present century.70


11.3.4 Parallels in the Apocalypse to the Later Antichrist Myth


It is clear that the evil figures who are portrayed as the opponents of God in Revelation are modelled on traditional mythic figures, in particular, the dragon/sea-monster tradition and the Leviathan/Behemoth figures. The dragon and these two beasts were intended by the writer to represent the Satan figure, the Roman empire personified in its deified and worshipped emperor, and the imperial cult which sought to impose that worship upon the empire's subjects, using the resources of the state to enforce its wishes. It is also apparent that the descriptions of the opponents of God in Revelation share many elements with the earlier Jewish apocalyptic literature, as well as with the later Antichrist literature. In addition, the descriptions in the Apocalypse were themselves to become important source texts for the later Antichrist tradition. These various points of similarity, and of difference, can now be considered, before conclusions are drawn concerning the relevance of the Apocalypse for the origins and development of the Antichrist myth.


11.3.5 The Book of Revelation and the Origins of the Antichrist Myth What can be said of the significance of Revelation for the study of the origins and development of the Antichrist myth? Certain viewpoints have been indicated throughout the discussion, but it will be helpful if they are gathered together in a final summary.

Revelation played a vital role in the development of the Antichrist myth partly because it gathered into one work a wide range of religious traditions and expressed them in a form which was given canonical status in the Christian church. Having acquired that status, it was in a unique position to influence the subsequent stages in the myth's development since, on the presuppositions of later interpreters, any future version of the myth must be consistent with details provided by Revelation.77

Like Daniel almost precisely two hundred years earlier, Revelation was the product of a prophetic response to a specific historical situation in which the people of God saw themselves under direct attack. The author doubtless learned some of his response from Daniel, but he drew on wider traditions as well as the intermediate experience of Jesus in the Christian community, to fashion an interpretation of the events which spoke to Christians in the province of Asia. He developed, in bold strokes, a work with a clarity of expression and a power that has been recognised in many later situations. Its power derives in part from that use of archetypical mythic symbols.

There is nothing in Revelation to suggest that there had been an earlier form of the Antichrist myth, and the elements of the later myth which have been brought together in the Apocalypse do not have the same balance as seen in later Antichrist literature. As suggested earlier, Revelation itself might be better described as a Satan myth, rather than an Antichrist myth. The satanic roles are spread over three symbolic figures. H.B. Swete suggested that Revelation disposed of the beast and the false prophet well before the consummation of all things, so that there could be a clear focus on the character and destiny of the Satan figure.


Read in the context of the contemporary works such as the Sibylline Oracles and the Johannine epistles, and against the background of Daniel, the synoptic gospels and 2 Thessalonians, this epistle is not far removed from the Antichrist tradition. On other other hand, neither the Nero legend nor the Antichrist myth are mentioned directly, and it is far from certain that the author was familiar with them. The most that can be said is that this writer seems to share the widespread hostility to Rome after 70 CE and that he expected some kind of eschatological adversary to appear shortly. One role of this "stumbling block", as the adversary is at times called, would be to execute the divine judgment upon Rome.


It would seem that the epistle represents one strand of Christian tradition from the last quarter of the first century. This strand of early Christian tradition was not familiar with the Antichrist myth but held views that were quite similar. It drew upon many of the same traditional ideas (lawlessness, the Daniel traditions, etc) and anticipated an imminent end, subsequent to the appearance of an Endtyrant. This eschatological adversary would be related to the activity of the Satan figure in some way, but the precise relationship was not spelt out in the epistle. This whole complex of ideas included a negative attitude to the Roman empire, which was understood as the fourth beast of Dan 7, and whose current ruler, the Flavians, were expected to be undone by the little horn. This was possibly a use of the Nero legend, but is perhaps better understood as an independent and parallel idea, since there is nothing to suggest a knowledge of the theological development of the legend into a Nero redivivus myth as seen in Revelation.


282 The Emerging Antichrist Myth


4 Ezra 11-12 Possibly of more direct relevance to this research into the origins and development of the Antichrist myth, is the Eagle Vision in chs 11-12. This vision involves a modification of the older vision in Daniel 7. The vision is outlined in 11:1-12:3, and an interpretation provided in 12:4-39. Rome is envisaged as an eagle with three heads (the Flavian rulers) and eight little wings (representing the Julio-Claudian dynasty). The section of the vision account which describes the announcement of the empire's judgment, will suffice as a citation from this vision.


Then I heard a voice saying to me, "Look before you and consider what you see." And I looked, and behold, a creature like a lion was aroused out of the forest, roaring; and I heard how he uttered a man's voice to the eagle, and spoke, saying, "Listen and I will speak to you. The Most High says to you, 'Are you not the one that remains of the four beasts which I had made to reign in my world, so that the end of my times might come through them? You, the fourth that has come, have conquered all the beasts that have gone before; and you have held sway over the world with much terror, and over all the earth with grievous oppression; and for so long have, you dwelt on the earth with deceit. And you have judged the earth, but not with truth; for you have afflicted the meek and injured the peaceable; you have hated those who tell the truth, and have loved liars; you have destroyed the dwellings of those who brought forth fruit, and have laid low the walls of those who did you no harm. And so your insolence has come up before the Most High, and your pride to the Mighty One. And the Most High has looked upon his times, and behold, they are ended, and his ages are completed! Therefore you will surely disappear, you eagle, and your terrifying wings, and your most evil little wings, and your malicious heads, and your most evil talons, and your whole worthless body, so that the whole earth, freed from your violence, may be refreshed and relieved, and may hope for the judgment and mercy of him who made it.'" [OTP, 1,5*9]


This passage indicates one way in which the Daniel 7 traditions continued to be used by later generations.7 Here they were updated with detailed allusions to the Julio-Claudian and Flavian dynasties being added, so that the reader could discern their application to the current political situation. This Jewish anti-Roman political statement is not unlike some seen in SibOr, but it lacks some of the invective. It seems more interested in the coming of the Messiah, than in the punishments to be inflicted on Rome. Nevertheless, it is clear that the writer regarded Rome as the fourth beast of Daniel 7, and that he looked forward to the time when the Messiah would come and destroy its power.

ft Ezra drew on older Jewish apocalyptic traditions, just as the third century authors did when describing the activity of the Antichrist figure. However, there is nothing in ft Ezra to suggest that the author or his readers were familiar with an Antichrist myth. Rather than seeing any direct link between ft Ezra and the Christian Antichrist myth, it seems better to regard them both as drawing on common Jewish traditions. In this example, the Jewish traditions are certainly close in form to the the Antichrist traditions emerging in Christian circles about the same time, but they remain quite distinct and have an integrity of their own which is lost if the passages are forced into the Antichrist literature. As a comparison of this passage with such passages as Didache 16 and THez will show (cf. §13.1 & §13.2), this is a parallel or even diverging line of tradition, not the line which would lead eventually to the Antichrist myth.


The use of the Azazel tradition in ApAb would seem to have no connection with the Antichrist myth, which was presumably taking its definitive shape around the time this book is written. Perhaps the Azazel tradition here represents one of the forms which the old Jewish adversary myths took. In some Christian circles these developed into an early form of the Antichrist myth. In other circles (such as Barnabas), the old Satan myth lay behind such titles as the Black One, the Evil One, the Stumbling Block, etc. In at least some groups, the figure of Azazel continued to serve as a suitable symbol for the power of evil. In ApAb the Azazel tradition seems to have been developed to include an evil human being, doubtless understood by the author as the Roman emperor worshipped in the imperial cult, who would be the figure-head or frontman for the final satanic rebellion at the end of time.


4. And he went with me and gave me rest, and did not let me err, because he was Truth.
5. And I was in no danger, because I walked with him, And I erred in nothing, because I obeyed him;
6. For Error fled from him, And did not meet him.
7. But Truth went along a straight path;
And everything which I did not know He showed me,
8. Even all the drugs of Error,
And all the scourges of death which are thought to be sweetness.
9. And the corruptor of corruption I saw while the bride who is
corrupted was adorning herself,
Even the bridegroom who corrupts and is corrupted;
10. And I asked Truth, Who are these? And he said to me,
This is the Deceiver, and that is Error;
11. And they imitate the Beloved One and his bride,
And cause the world to err, and corrupt it;
12. And they invite many to a banquet,
And give them to drink the wine of their intoxication,
13. And they cause them to vomit their wisdom and
understanding, And they render them irrational;
14. And then they abandon them,
But they go about about raving and corrupting,
Because they are without understanding,
For neither do they seek it.
15. And I acted wisely, so that I did not fall into the hands of
the Deceiver.
And I congratulated myself, because Truth had gone with me.
[OdesSol 38:4-15 (AOT, 726)]


Clearly, there are several points of similarity between this Ode and the Antichrist myth. There is the reference to two figures, "the Deceiver" and "Error" who are said to imitate Christ and the Church ("the Beloved One and his bride'9 and cause the world to err, inviting "many to a banquet". Each of these points have parallels in the Antichrist myth, a myth which by the time of the Odes was probably quite well established in the churches among whom the Odes are thought to have originated. Further, the way that Truth preserves the Odist from the power of the Deceiver is especially reminiscent of 1 John 4:1-3, where the Spirit of Truth is said to guide the Christian so that he does not fall prey to the Spirit of Deceit which is the Antichrist.



The Jewish parts of the book can be dated to ca 175 CE since they anticipate the return of Nero during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, who died in 180 CE. Since Lac t an ti us quoted extensively from the finished form of the book, the final form can be dated before the end of the third century. Apart from the pro-Hadrian insertion in lines 131-38, which is clearly of Egyptian origin, there is no hint of the provenance of the book.

Brown's discussion of the Antichrist idea correctly identifies four major strands of tradition in Hellenistic Judaism that contributed to the eventual form of the Antichrist myth:30 A, the sea-monster traditions of ancient mythology; B, the angelic adversary traditions of the Satan-Beliar type; C, the tyrannical human ruler who embodied evil; and D, the idea of the False Prophet. It is important to note that only D, the False Prophet, plays any significant part in the Antichrist idea within the Johannine epistles. There is also some part given to B, but this is quite minor. It may not be going too far, then, to assert that the Johannine epistles provide the terminology for the Antichrist myth but represent a stage in its development when the dominant element was still the traditional Jewish idea of the False Prophet.31 The evolution of the Antichrist myth may not have proceeded as far in the Johannine epistles as it had in such passages as Didache 16, even though the distinctive terminology had now been created.


One final detail of 2:18-27 requires a comment before considering 4:1-6. In vs 22a the phrase, ό ψεύστης ["the liar"], occurs. Because of the use of the definite article, its apposition with "the Antichrist", and the similarity to the expression "the deceiver and the Antichrist" in 2 John 7, this expression is widely seen as a proper title for the False Prophet figure.32 It is certainly very similar to the "Man of the Lie" concept seen in some of the Qumran texts. If this interpretation of vs 22a is accepted, it reinforces the point made above that the Johannine epistles were really still working with Jewish False Prophet traditions, even though they happened to have developed the Antichrist label due to the particular nature of the false doctrines they were combating.


Since ApPet was known to Clement of Alexandria, the time of composition must be well back into the first half of the second century CE. If ch 10 is correctly seen as a reference to 4 Ezra 5:33, then the probable date was around 120-140 CE. Further, if the references to the fig tree and to the deceiver who is not a true Christ (ch 2), can be correctly taken as pointing to Bar Kochba, the work could be dated ca 135 CE. The work's early attestation by Clement may point to an Egyptian origin.



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Coptic Orthodox views on Hell


Is Hell a Real Fire?


Is hell a real fire? Could it be? If it were, why would God create this fire? Does He want to chastise us forever? Many Christians and non-Christians alike have serious difficulties in approaching a God that would let people burn for eternity. In fact, this misrepresentation of God’s wrath or His cruel punishment has led many not only to NOT believe in the Christian God, but also to unjustly hate Him.


When His Holiness Pope Shenouda, of Thrice Blessed Memory, was once asked if hell was a real fire. His answer was clear: no, it is not! Actually, believing that hell is a real fire is an offense to God’s fatherhood. As a matter of fact, imagine an earthly father who wants to punish his child for a certain misdeed usually punishes mercifully and/or justly. He does so because the father is setting a consequence for pedagogical reasons—meaning to teach the child how to live properly. He doesn’t punish out of spite, or out of vengeance simply because he loves his child and wants the best for them. Any parent would easily understand this concept. If you are not a parent, think about it from the perspective of a sibling or a friend. Imagine that this sibling or friend is being tortured in a fire here on earth for an evil they did commit. Therefore, they are guilty. Would we bear to see this person burn in front of you? Would we not want to get them out of the fire? Would we not have compassion? We would. Even a non-Christian would. Because, ultimately, all humans are born in the image of God and each of us relatively reflects God’s beauty. If we would not bear to see our friend or child in this fire, can we really envision that God would purposely punish his children in such a fire, albeit sometimes they might be evil?


If we believe this, we suggest that we are a better parent, friend or sibling than God, which cannot be. For instance, we sometimes hear of stories of parents that endure their children even in very evil or difficult circumstances and still try to show compassion and win their children over. Can these people be better than God? Can one father be more compassionate than Our Heavenly Father?


The Bible gives the answer, in Luke 11, when one of Christ’s disciples asked Him to teach them how to pray. He responded with the “Our Father” prayer, continued speaking about prayer and concluded with the following saying:


“If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?”


What He means here is that if a son asks for something good, will you give something evil in return? Then He continues:


“If you then, being evil, (relatively not good in comparison to God) know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”


Here, there is a clear contrast between the Heavenly Fatherhood and the earthly one and how the heavenly one is much superior.


It must be clear that we are not stating here that hell is a breeze. Hell is painful, but for different reasons. It is not a physical burning fire created to punish us for eternity, as many believe. In addition to the main argument of the Fatherhood of God, there are several other points worth considering. For example, when Jesus was speaking to the Jews, in John 5:29, He mentioned that those who have done good will be raised to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. So both good and evil will be resurrected. In discussing this resurrection, St. Paul says in Philippians:


“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body (talking about Christ’s body after the resurrection)…”


So the resurrection of our bodies will be conformed to the resurrected body of Christ.


Now, Christ’s resurrected body did not have the same characteristics as our current earthly bodies. For instance, as the disciples of Emmaus were describing their encounter with Christ to the other disciples, Jesus suddenly stood in the midst of them. Again, in John 20, when St. Thomas didn’t believe the resurrection of the Lord, St. John writes that as the door was shut, Jesus stood in the midst of them. This spiritual body clearly doesn’t have the same characteristics as the earthly one. In 1st Corinthians 15, St. Paul refers to a difference between the natural body (which is the earthly one) and another body, which he calls the spiritual body. The question therefore becomes “can this spiritual body be affected by earthly fire?” An earthly body could be affected by earthly fire; however, a spiritual body could be affected by spiritual fire. Now, the question is, “what is this spiritual fire?” Before answering, here is an additional argument in Matthew 18, when Christ says:


“But the sons of the kingdom (referring to the Jews) will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


Christ, here, refers to the eternal condemnation as “darkness”, not as fire which produces light. Also, He refers to the “gnashing of teeth.” Real fire would cause someone to scream, not to gnash his teeth. It is likely then, that these verses should not be understood literarily. So when the Bible talks about a lake of fire, it is talking about spiritual fire.


Thus, what is this spiritual fire? Let us turn to St. Anthony and see how he describes God and His relationship to humanity:


“He [God] is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God’s goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind.”


St. Anthony is essentially saying that God’s arms are always open to everyone. However, each human being decides, through his faith and deeds, whether they want to be in communion with God. The spiritual fire is this lack of communion with God. Remember, God is the source of Life, Love, Peace, Joy, you name it… He is the source of all good things. And this communion starts here on earth and continues in the afterlife. That is why it is said that we can live heaven on earth. Truly, all of us can start living heaven on earth as the Kingdom of God is within us and we do feel this communion with God and the fruit of His Spirit. However, the opposite is also true. Some can live hell on earth, through their lack of communion with God. Typically, those people express often hatred, which is the lack of love—the lack of God, or express anger, which is the lack of peace, etc. There is already an absence of communion with God in their earthly lives. This is not how humans are meant to live. Humans are created to enjoy God’s presence for eternity. Let us start therefore enjoying the kingdom within us, here on earth, that we may find the fullness of our joy in heaven.


Link - https://copticorthodoxanswers.org/apologetics/hell-real-fire-god-want-chastise-us-eternity/

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  • 4 weeks later...
questions for david

I have a lot of questions. No matter how David denies all religions, but infinite love and infinite consciousness is God, it seems like Ike is afraid of the word god because he considers it a program, but this is just infinite consciousness. As for Christ, it is strange that David associates him with Tammuz-Attis Adonis and writes out their Christmas on December 25, although they were honored in May June by the Krishnas on July 19 by the Buddhas somewhere in the middle of May if hayk is connected to the infinite consciousness, why in this case writes a lie? about the fact that the ancient reptilian family of Piso wrote the gospel and the epistles of the apostles and created Christ, neither confirm nor refute this, but the question in 1 Corinthians 13 is called the hymn of love, so how could the reptilians write about love without knowing what it is?

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.1john4:16

 we are not a body, we are an infinite consciousness gaining experience in a certain body, but children born with disabilities, why does the infinite consciousness need such a negative experience if it already knows everything? what matrix does hayk itself serve? sorry for a lot of bukofff

Edited by ivanka
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On 12/24/2022 at 12:37 AM, ivanka said:

but children born with disabilities, why does the infinite consciousness need such a negative experience if it already knows everything?


The existence of evil and natural suffering is not only a problem for David's theology, but is also a historic subject of debate for mainstream religions, and a reason why a lot of people have left their religion.  How can we have an ultimate reality that is good and loving when there's all this evil and suffering, even with situations where you can't blame it on free will? Disabilities, sickness, earthquakes and volcanoes for example. Atheism and materialism begin to look like better explanations.  


As for Christ, there's lots of interpretations and you can take your pick. Same with the other religions. Live and let live. 

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11 hours ago, Campion said:


The existence of evil and natural suffering is not only a problem for David's theology, but is also a historic subject of debate for mainstream religions, and a reason why a lot of people have left their religion.  How can we have an ultimate reality that is good and loving when there's all this evil and suffering, even with situations where you can't blame it on free will? Disabilities, sickness, earthquakes and volcanoes for example. Atheism and materialism begin to look like better explanations.  


As for Christ, there's lots of interpretations and you can take your pick. Same with the other religions. Live and let live. 


Great Post, this is why I am arguing for the truth of religion, not the fantasies the mainstream Christian religions sell to the mark's.


'They' have distorted our religious teachings to the point that they make no sense. And because no relief or explanation can be found within, people reject it. Which is perfectly logical and understandable and entirely within 'their' plan, to divide us from God and our own divinity.



But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


People have little spiritual experience these days and the church has none to offer.


I understand why the churches are empty.

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15 hours ago, Campion said:


The existence of evil and natural suffering is not only a problem for David's theology, but is also a historic subject of debate for mainstream religions, and a reason why a lot of people have left their religion.  How can we have an ultimate reality that is good and loving when there's all this evil and suffering, even with situations where you can't blame it on free will? Disabilities, sickness, earthquakes and volcanoes for example. Atheism and materialism begin to look like better explanations.  


As for Christ, there's lots of interpretations and you can take your pick. Same with the other religions. Live and let live. 

The problem of evil does not exist in a nature and reality based religion.


Only when supernatural beliefs are in play, does the problem of evil pop up.


Have a look at this old O.P and see if you can make sense of it.


There is evil, but without it we go extinct.




Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.


It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.


1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.


This indicates that Jesus had no choice.


If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?


God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.


This then begs the question.


What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?


Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.


The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.


One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.




Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.


That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."


But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.


If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.


Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.


 Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.



First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.


Evil then is only human to human.

As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.

Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.


Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.


This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.


Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.


There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.






Evolutionary theology.




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15 hours ago, Campion said:

Same with the other religions. Live and let live. 

I liked most of your post and thinking above, but this bit of immoral thinking I will chew you out for, as it is a fully evil concept.



Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.




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1 minute ago, Gnostic Christian said:

Understand or not, we should all praise God, not that one exists, for ending those garbage supernatural God religions.





Well I agree to a point, most of these religions are garbage.


But I have real experience of the 'supernatural' - so I know it exists as part of our reality. 


As does God, but not the ones in those fictional books.

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3 minutes ago, Gnostic Christian said:

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


That last bit is a bit too defeatist for my liking, so here is my version.


Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me, so i kicked them in the bolloxs, stamped on their knees and laughed hard in their face, because lets face it, when reason flies out the window and everyone just turned half past stupid, why not, you already know what comes next, any questions?

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