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The Keys To Religion


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11 hours ago, pi3141 said:

Another point the Medium revealed, is that when we choose to come here, we select the mother we want, the father is irrelevant, its the mother, and either what they can teach, or its what the child can teach the Mother or if the Mother is special enough to cope with the child.


sounds like someone with a feminist agenda

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19 hours ago, Mr H said:

I think the whole Jesus story is a story about humans and their true nature. That is that what we all essentially are, is God, just like Jesus. 


"The kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21, KJV)


We all carry a part of God.


We all have a connection to God


We are all going to ' Heaven'  


Death is just part of the natural cycle, like birth.


Both are amazing events.

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19 hours ago, pi3141 said:

We all carry a part of God.


This suggests that God is divided up into parts. I'm not judging your beliefs, many others also talk about having a divine spark within us etc. Hindus do namaste to the divine within each person, which is perhaps where the saying comes from that they have 300 million Gods (back when that was the population of India). Others believe that the separation into parts is just appearances and everything is really One. 

For me spirituality is all about investigating the oneness vs multiplicity, wholeness vs fragmentation, spirit vs ego, duality/nonduality, God/world. However we want to to express it. 

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5 hours ago, Campion said:

This suggests that God is divided up into parts. I'm not judging your beliefs, many others also talk about having a divine spark within us etc. Hindus do namaste to the divine within each person, which is perhaps where the saying comes from that they have 300 million Gods (back when that was the population of India). Others believe that the separation into parts is just appearances and everything is really One. 

For me spirituality is all about investigating the oneness vs multiplicity, wholeness vs fragmentation, spirit vs ego, duality/nonduality, God/world. However we want to to express it. 


'The kingdom of heaven is within you'


Traditionally its in our heart, but how can THE kingdom of heaven be in each of all our hearts?


That would make the kingdom of heaven fragmentary. Yet there it is, within is and above us, all part of the same, but all separate, all at the same time, all one at some level, and all separate at another viewpoint. We're all part of the whole and carry a piece of it inside us.


Thats the mystery of it.


Another mystery is eternity - how can God be eternal.


Same with the Universe, if it is eternal, how can that be.


Always was, always is, no beginning and no end.


F*ck, that is a mystery.



Edited by pi3141
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Jesus is the hero on the heroes journey; the Self is the hero that must be enthroned by a person on their journey through the chaos of life in order to achieve maturation of the personality. Spirit is the meaning existent behind it all. Jesus says we are the city and the city is the kingdom; the city is the place within in which the Self must be enthroned: the kingdom of heaven is within.


Its talking about an internal transformational process a person can undergo.


This reality is held together by a balance of opposites like God and Self: the personal and the suprapersonal: parusha-atman, spirit-matter


if we visualise a circle with a dot in it then the ego is the dot and the Self is the whole AND the dot. Equally God is an infinate circle whose centre is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.

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Report: Cardinal Calls for ‘Permanent’ Dialogue with Freemasons


Following a closed-door meeting in Milan, Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmiero reportedly said he believed ‘an evolution in mutual understanding’ had taken place between masonry and the Church over the past 50 years.


MILAN, Italy — A cardinal taking part in a “historic” closed-door meeting on Friday between the heads of Italy’s Freemasonic lodges and senior Catholic Church leaders has called for a “permanent” dialogue to be opened with the secretive organization, despite masonry being long condemned by the Church.

 A 1983 document from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith stated Masonic principles “have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church.” And last November, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed that stance, quoting the 1983 document that “active membership in Freemasonry by a member of the faithful is prohibited, because of the irreconcilability between Catholic doctrine and Freemasonry.”


Link - https://www.ncregister.com/blog/pentin-cardinal-calls-for-permanent-dialogue-with-freemasons



Yeah yeah, controversy I know. But looking past the obvious, I wanted to highlight this paragraph as its pertinent to the thread -



Ode to Indifferentism
In an ode to indifferentism — the belief that differences of religion are of no importance and a central tenet of masonry — Bisi said “each man is brother to the other” and the “bond of brotherhood is independent of faith. It is only necessary to believe in the Great Architect of the Universe.” 


“The starry sky is the same for the Buddhist, for the Catholic, for the Waldensian, for the Muslim, for all those who believe in a supreme being,” he continued, adding: “We set our brothers free to adhere to any religion and to practice. Absolute truths and walls of the mind do not belong to us, and for us they must be torn down.” 


Bisi ended by expressing a hope that “one day a pope and a grand master may meet and walk a piece of the road together, in the light of the sun.”




Do you see? The starry sky is the same for all religions, because that is what all religions worship, or have based their myths on. This is the truth, religions worship 'the starry vault' or 'the Heavens' i.e that which is above your head. The mythologies and stories handed down to us are mostly allegorical of the Sun and Stars - the heavens - above us.


Then they say they want to 'walk together in the light of the Sun'


What does this mean? Why should being in Sunlight together be so important, why is the Sun so important? 


Because again, that is what they worship and if they can walk together in Sunlight then they worship together.


Either that or the Catholics and Freemasons already walk together in Darkness i.e. in secret and they wish to walk in Public view in recognition they worship the same thing - The Sun and the Stars, Nature.


Nature worship is loosely defined as Paganism, and Freemasonry is very Pagan, and they recognize the Catholic Church is too.


See the Masters Carpet by Edmond Ronayne - or, Masonry and Baal-Worship Identical: Reviewing the Similarity Between Masonry, Romanism and "the Mysteries," and Comparing the Whole with the Bible


Dan Brown, Davinci Code quote -  ' She lies. She rests at last beneath the starry skies'




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After apparent opening, Pope’s theological advisor closes door anew to Masonry
By Crux Staff
Feb 26, 2024

ROME – Just days after a prominent cardinal called for a “permanent dialogue” with Freemasons, suggesting that “an evolution in mutual understanding” has taken place over the last half-century, a top theological advisor to Pope Francis has reiterated the fundamental incompatibility between masonry and Catholicism.

Bishop Antonio Staglianò, President of the Pontifical Academy of Theology, also confirmed a November 2023 Vatican ruling that Catholics who join Masonic lodges are in a state of “grave sin” and may not receive communion.


“Within Freemasonry, plots of occult power develop which are in contradiction with Christian action,” Staglianò told Vatican Media. “In short, when we talk about irreconcilability, we are referring to profound contradictions.”


The comments came in the wake of a Feb. 16 conference in Milan that brought together leaders of Italy’s major Masonic lodges and senior Catholic officials, including Archbishop Mario Delpini of Milan.




In his Feb. 24 interview with Vatican media outlets, Staglianò appeared to cut short any speculation that the Vatican’s position vis-à-vis Freemasonry might be evolving.

“The Masonic heresy is one which is fundamentally aligned with the Arian heresy,” he said, referring to a movement in the early church which denied the divinity of Christ.

“At bottom, it was Arius who imagined that Jesus was the Great Architect of the Universe, denying the divinity of Christ,” Staglianò said, implying that the same conviction is contained within Masonic doctrine.


“This idea is the fruit of human reason, which tries to imagine itself a god, while the God of Catholics is the fruit of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ,” Staglianò said. “In substance, it’s the fruit of an historic event in which God was made man, coming close to human beings and speaking to them, giving them the destiny of salvation.”

Staglianò also said that Catholicism and Masonry have different concepts of solidarity.


“Our fraternity is instituted in the sacrament of the love of God in Jesus, instituted in the Eucharist, not just in the generic idea of being brothers,” he said.

“Christian charity corresponds to the historic event of a God who died and rose again for us, and asks his children not to be simply philanthropists but, eventually, to be crucified for love,” Staglianò said.


Staglianò also denied that the legendary Italian-German theologian Romano Guardini, whose writings have occasionally been cited favorably by Masons, could be appealed to as a basis for the idea that “we can stand together.”


The president of the Academy of Theology also criticized the Masonic penchant for esoteric doctrines revealed only to initiates.


“Catholicism too speaks of mystery,” he said. “But the Gospels tell us that the mystery hidden for centuries has not ceased to be a mystery but it has ceased to be hidden, because the mystery hidden for centuries has been revealed.”

Officially speaking, the Church has banned Catholics from becoming Masons since the 18th century, a position that’s been confirmed on several occasions, most recently in November in response to a question submitted by a bishop in the Philippines.


“On the doctrinal level, it should be remembered that active membership in Freemasonry by a member of the faithful is forbidden because of the irreconcilability between Catholic doctrine and Freemasonry,” the Vatican’s Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith said.


In Italy, there are roughly a dozen Masonic lodges with a total membership estimated at around 40,000. There’s an annual Masonic feast celebrated on Sept. 20, the anniversary of the breach of Rome’s Porta Pia which led to the fall of the Papal States.


Link - https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2024/02/after-apparent-opening-popes-theological-advisor-closes-door-anew-to-masonry



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Posted (edited)

This book is highly illuminating by giving additional understanding to how this allegorical interpretation ties the Sun into Freemasonry.



The Craft and the Cross

Chris McClintock


The Craft and the Cross examines the birth of sacred symbolism in pre-Christian times and traces its development and survival into the modern world.


This study is the result of a quest to understand the symbols of Freemasonry, and reveals for the first time ever what the obscure allegories actually mean. In coming to understand the true meaning of the rituals and symbols of Freemasonry a picture emerges that is both controversial and unexpected, for it shows a common origin of both the symbols of the Craft and those of Christianity. And that common origin is the ancient veneration of the sun.


The book takes as a starting point an examination of the present day rituals and symbols of Freemasonry, where a radical new interpretation of that symbolism uncovers many allegorical references to the sun and the rhythm of the seasons lying forgotten within. That symbolism is discovered to be truly ancient, originating over four thousand years ago among the Bronze Age peoples of the British Isles.


The people who then inhabited the north-western edge of the ancient world venerated the sun above all else and regarded its four rising and setting points on the solstices - and the cross they form on the ground - as sacred. Thus the cross of the sun was sacred for thousands of years before the arrival of Christianity, and it is the contention of the author that as Christianity arose the dispossessed Druids who upheld this knowledge were absorbed into the new faith - carrying their more ancient understanding of the cross with them.


The version of Christianity developed by those Druids is known as The Celtic Church and existed as an autonomous part of Christianity quite separate from the influence of Rome until the 12th Century when the papacy finally moved to bring it into the fold. Evidence is presented that shows that though the Celtic Church faded from the pages of history it's esoteric teachings survived their overthrow and emerged as the Craft in the 17th Century.


‘The Craft and the Cross’ traces the path of this secret knowledge right from its formulation in the distant past, through the arrival of Christianity and the merging of the old with the new, and uncovers it's continued existence today, in the largest and most enigmatic brotherhood in the world - Freemasonry!


It also shows that whilst Freemasonry carries symbolism that can be regarded as having a pagan origin, many of the symbols of Christianity were derived from the very same source.


Whilst the Craft is no longer aware of the immense history that lies in its own rituals, that history is still nevertheless there, and has been newly reconstructed by the author from the minute observation of the labors of the lodge room.





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Posted (edited)

Here is St John the Baptist, holding his Jacob Staff for measuring the ascension of the sun, and pointing to the Sun.


His saviour. But notice, St John the Baptist came BEFORE Jesus, and yet he holds the Christian cross.



St John.jpg




Jacob Staff.jpg

Edited by pi3141
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On 4/4/2024 at 12:31 PM, pi3141 said:

Here is St John the Baptist, holding his Jacob Staff for measuring the ascension of the sun, and pointing to the Sun.


His saviour. But notice, St John the Baptist came BEFORE Jesus, and yet he holds the Christian cross.



St John.jpg




Jacob Staff.jpg


Regarding Leonardo Da Vinci's depiction of John the Baptist, in his book The Mysteries of John the Baptist, on considering the painting, Tobias Churton floats the idea of a likeness to Hermes / Divine Mercury.


Churton notes Da Vinci's pagan depiction of "the Baptist" in androgynous form. But it is the pointing upwards gesture which invites the most speculation alongside the arm placed on the Baptist's chest - the cross, according to Churton, came as an afterthought.



Leonardo's use of the pointing gesture, however, is a recurring sign in his religious art. But what constituted Leonardo's religion if anything? The slender reed cross was added later. Was it a sop to theological propriety? Though not detracting overmuch from the painting's central action, the cross was probably added to bring Leonardo's puzzling image into securer doctrinal waters. The cross declares this John the Baptist was a Christian! (Page 8)


What does the gesture mean? Could it be indicative of the Hermetic principle "as above, so below"?



Symbolic links between the pagan gods of the classical period and corresponding "principles" perceived in the church's approved biblical figures were not only highlighted for moral and philosophical uplift but, in many a learned in-joke, sported with. At least one of these correspondences may illuminate some of the mystery of Leonardo's John the Baptist, if not the mystery of "the Baptist" himself. (Page 10)


Prior to Da Vinci, German artist Conrad Celtes had adopted the fad for presenting biblical figures as pagan deities including depicting John the Baptist as the Greek God Hermes and as the herald (Mercury is known as the messenger) of Christ. Hermes is also associated with alchemy, gnosis, material transformation and spiritual ascent.



The Hermetic writings available to Leonardo were composed in the early centuries of the Christian era, probably in Egypt, though nobody in Leonardo's time thought so. They were considered as either antecedent to, or contemporary with, the "philosophy" of Moses. The Hermetica appeared to prophesy the "son of God" Jesus. Hermes also spoke of a "herald" (Greek: kerux). In Corpus Hermeticum IV, this herald was sent by God to mankind with a bowl of nous (divine mind) in which men could be baptized if they chose to heed the call and accept the offer of gnosis, or higher divine knowledge or consciousness. The "mixing bowl" or krater in which the willing initiate could be baptized also enjoyed an alchemical meaning. We see here an obvious link between John the Baptist and the Hermetic revelation: John as Baptist or spiritual operator and agent of transformation. (Page 11)


Returning to the aspect of androgyny, it is further suggested that this could represent a conjoining of Hermes and Aphrodite (Mercury and Venus) as mind and beauty combine with the gesture pointing "the way to a higher state of being and consciousness", the unification of the masculine and feminine characteristics and a return to oneness.

Edited by Mitochondrial Eve
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2 hours ago, Mitochondrial Eve said:

the unification of the masculine and feminine characteristics and a return to oneness.


That describes God to me.


I've said it before, I think 'He' is a 'She' or more accurately, both male and female.


Maybe this androgyny reference in many works is a nod to that.


The original Lords Prayer opened with 'O Cosmic birther' who is it that gives birth.


Why does Genesis say 'He made them in his image' if God was not the image of male AND female.


In the second Genesis God says 'Let us make man in our image'


Is God schizophrenic?


Either God had a wife, or God is both male and female.



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The Dying God and the Resurrected God: What is Religion, Really?
by Historic Mystery April 12, 2024


The key moment in Christianity is Jesus’s death on the cross. From this sacrifice the son of God returns after three days, come back to life to reassure the mourning disciples that everything will be fine. He gives them tasks, and then heads off to heaven for ever (or for the moment, anyway).


Taken in isolation, this is a strange sequence of events. Sacrifice is one thing, but this sacrifice is undone within a matter of days. Coming back from the dead is also pretty momentous, but Christ appears to only a handful of people before disappearing semi-permanently. Might as well have not come back at all, you might think.

There is a reason for this, however. The death and resurrection of Christ is an aspect of religion left over from a much older way of thinking. Once we know what to look for, we see dead and resurrected gods everywhere in the ancient world.


And what this repeated story can tell us about the cultures in which it appears gets to the very core of what religion is. Put simply, religion is an attempt to explain what its followers observe but cannot explain, somewhere between metaphor and protoscience.




The motif of a dying and resurrected deity spans across various cultures and religions, symbolizing the cyclic nature of life, death, and rebirth. This archetype reflects humanity’s observations of the natural world, particularly the seasonal cycles of growth, decay, and renewal.


The motif in Christianity is a later version, shorn if its original context and meaning but surviving as a relic of the religions on which Christianity is founded. Earlier Greek, Pagan, and Egyptian traditions all had their versions.


Is it an intriguing aspect of ancient religions? Or is it more, is it the core of what ancient religions were, and what religion, in and of itself, is? Is it universal?


Why Does Christ Come Back?

In Christianity, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are central to the faith’s doctrine. Christ’s crucifixion, death, and subsequent resurrection are commemorated annually through Good Friday and Easter, symbolizing the ultimate victory over sin and death.


Of course, for modern Christians this has nothing to do with the cycle of nature. This narrative provides believers with hope for eternal life, emphasizing spiritual rebirth and the possibility of redemption.


But that isn’t where it came from. The rebirth of a dead god at Easter time, traditionally the moment in a lot of the world when crops start to grow, is an anthropomorphized explanation of the cycle of the seasons. The dead world comes back to life in the spring, and God created the world, so it makes sense that he runs on the same schedule, and that he can bring Himself back to life at the same time.


The modern version of the death-and-resurrection story has nothing to do with this, of course. Centuries of Christian orthodoxy layered on top of the original story means it has transformed into a message about life after death somewhere else, not here on Earth.


The abrupt departure of Jesus after his resurrection allowed Church leaders to paint a vivid picture of where he went, and to make extravagant promises about there.But originally it was not about there, it was about here.


Death and Resurrection in Older Traditions

Perhaps the most well-known example of the death and resurrection story outside of Christianity, at least to those with a smattering of classical knowledge, is that of Hades and Persephone. The story goes that the god of the underworld espied the beautiful Persephone one day and spirited her off to the underworld to be his bride.


In Persephone’s absence her mother, Demeter, mourned. Demeter, a goddess of fertility, neglected her duties to the world of mortals in her grief: crops withered, plants and animals died away, and the very world itself started to come undone.


This worried the gods and Zeus, who knew very well what had happened, sent a message to Hades that Persephone should be returned to her mother. However Persephone had, during her time in the underworld, eaten some pomegranate, and was now partially beholden to that place, too.


And so we have a neat explanation for the seasons. For part of the year Persephone is with her mother, and everything is great: crops grow, the weather is nice, the land is fertile. But when Persephone returns to the underworld and her dark husband, the world dies once again.


Again we have religion explaining what people saw around them in terms they could understand. They knew that crops grow in the springtime and that the world grows cold and dead in the winter, but not why. And it looking to personify the natural cycle they gave it a name: Persephone.


Now you could argue that Persephone doesn’t actually die, she just goes to the underworld for part of the year before returning to life. But the underlying metaphor is the same, and for the Greeks dying and going to the underworld were essentially equivalent, rendering this point somewhat moot.


We see this in other pagan rituals, too. Festivals such as Beltane celebrate the themes of fertility, renewal, and rebirth. Beltane, which marks the beginning of summer, is characterized by rituals that symbolize the potency of life and the growth of the natural world. It is the rebirth of the god Bel, dead for a season but now back with all his life-giving power.


Fires are lit to represent the return of light and warmth, mirroring the sun’s increasing strength. These celebrations are a direct homage to the life-death-rebirth cycle, emphasizing the importance of seasonal changes in the regeneration of life.


We can even see the variations based on the geography of the myth’s origin. Take the story of Isis and Osiris, for example. Osiris, murdered by his brother Set and dismembered, is resurrected by his wife Isis, becoming the lord of the underworld and judge of the dead.


This is a different myth because of what the ancient Egyptians saw around them: their world was not primarily dependent on seasonal changes in the weather, like the Greeks or other European cultures. Theirs was dependent on the Nile.


The Egyptians divided their land into two regions, the red and the black. The black region was the fertile area near to the banks of the Nile, named for the color of its soil. The red region was the unending desert that stretched beyond.


Set was lord of the desert regions, and his murder of his brother god represents the encroachment of the desert into the fertile banks of the Nile during the dry season. However the annual flooding of the Nile River, on which Egyptians depended on for agriculture, shows Osiris coming back to life and providing for his people. Isis is the agent of this rebirth for similarly straightforward reasons: bringing new life into the world was something only a woman can do.


Universal Construct or Cultural Variation?

The recurring motif of a dying and resurrected god across these diverse cultures suggests therefore a universal construct, rooted in the human experience of observing and interpreting the natural world. The death-rebirth cycle reflects a fundamental understanding of nature’s rhythms and the hope for renewal amidst decay and death.

This is a useful tool for understanding religion: as a way to explain the world around us using only our limited understanding of ourselves. However, it’s important to note that while this theme is prevalent in many ancient religions, it is not universal.


In other ancient traditions, such as those in Asia and the Americas, the conceptual framework can differ significantly. For example, in Hinduism, the concept of reincarnation and the cyclical nature of the universe (samsara) offer a different interpretation of life, death, and rebirth.


In the Americas, Native American mythologies often focus on the harmonious balance between nature and humanity rather than a death-rebirth cycle. They have their own stories, but these are based on different observations of the world to those of the ancient near east.




But for many religions, the myth of the dying and resurrected god serves as a profound metaphor for the cyclical nature of life. This motif repeats again and again across the ancient world and across time: Dionysus, Adonis, Marduk, Duzumi: they all fit this pattern. Interestingly, some religions also explore what happens when the dead god does not come back: Baldr does not come back in Norse mythology, and his death precipitates the doom of the gods.


It offers a recognition from these ancient cultures that they lived in their lands entirely dependent on the forces of nature they could neither fully explain, nor hope to control. They depended on the cycle of the seasons and the miracle of fertility for their existence, and they called these natural forces gods.


Link - https://www.historicmysteries.com/myths-legends/resurrected-god/39464/


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On 4/12/2024 at 10:42 PM, pi3141 said:

The Dying God and the Resurrected God: What is Religion, Really?


Stepping back a bit from all the various stories of Gods being born, dying, resurrected etc I want to know how this all works in a metaphysical sense. What do death and resurrection really mean? 


The standard theory most people believe is that we are a combination of matter and spirit. Matter, the physical body is clearly mortal; it's born, grows up and lives, then dies. But the spirit is immortal and passes through all the stages and realms intact.


So to say a God can die and be resurrected implies (s)he had a material body which went through a life, died and came back to life, but the divine spirit is unaffected, just like our human spirits. There's also stories of humans dying and resurrecting, so Gods doing that isn't really such a big deal to me. But are these stories saying something else, that spirit can also die and either be reborn or not come back at all? 


Edited by Campion
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