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The Keys To Religion


pi3141

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11 hours ago, pi3141 said:

 

 

that clip mentions the formation of the vatican city as a separate legal enclave from the rest of italy within which it resides but the cabal did the same thing with the city of london banking district in london which is also a separate legal enclave from the rest of the UK. Also washington district of columbia in the US is also a separate legal enclave from the rest of the US

 

One is the financial heart of the NWO, the other is the administrative and the third is the religious centre.

 

Within washington DC are the offices of many of the alphabet agencies as well as the HQ of scottish rite freemasonry.

 

As the clip said the pope tried to ban the jesuits which were created along the same lines as the knights templar order. When the templars were suppressed in france many fled to switzerland which became a banking centre under the 'gnomes of zurich' and where do the internal police of the vatican get recruited from: switzerland

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Behold A Pale Horse

 

...there is a power so organized, so subtle, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it. 

President Woodrow Wilson 

 

William Cooper 

 

History is replete with whispers of secret societies. Accounts of elders or priests who guarded the forbidden knowledge of ancient peoples. Prom intent men, meeting in secret, who directed the course of civilization are recorded in the writings of all people. 

 

The oldest is the Brotherhood of the Snake, also called the Brotherhood of the Dragon, and it still exists under many different names. The Brotherhood of the Snake is devoted to guarding the "secrets of the ages" and to the recognition of Lucifer as the one and only true God. If you do not believe in God, Lucifer, or Satan, you must understand that there are great masses of people who do. I do not believe in racism but millions do and their beliefs and actions based upon those beliefs will affect me.

 

It is clear that religion has always played a significant role in the course of these organizations. Communication with a higher source, often divine, is a familiar claim in all but a few. 

 

The secrets of these groups are thought to be so profound that only a chosen, well-educated few are able to understand and use them. These men use their special 
knowledge for the benefit of all mankind. At least that is what they claim. How are we to know, since their knowledge and actions have been secret? Fortunately, some of it has become public knowledge. 

 

I found it intriguing that in most, if not all, primitive tribal societies all of the adults are members. They are usually separated into male and female groups. The male usually 
dominates the culture. Surprisingly, this exactly resembles many civilized secret societies. This can only mean that the society is working not against established authority, but for it. In fact, could be said to actually be the established authority. This would tend to remove the validity of any argument that all secret associations are dedicated to the "destruction of properly constituted authority." This can only apply, of course, where the secret society makes up the majority or entirety of any people which it affects. Only a very few fall into this category. 

 

Secret societies in fact mirror many facets of ordinary life.  There is always an exclusivity of membership, with the resultant importance attached to being or becoming a 
member. This is found in all human endeavors, even those which are not secret, such as football teams or country clubs. This exclusivity of membership is actually one of the secret societies' most powerful weapons. There is the use of signs, passwords and other tools. These have always performed valuable functions in man's organizations 
everywhere. The stated reason, almost always different from the real reason, for the societies' existence is important. It can be anything, but is usually fraternal and is found in all pressure groups wherever people congregate. 

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Deadly Deception - Jim Shaw

 

THE TEMPLE ITSELF 


The House of the Temple is quite impressive if a bit awesome, really. Standing large, grey and silent on the east side of Northwest 16th Street, between “R” and “S” Streets, it looms very wide and tall from the curb. There is a huge expanse of granite pavement in front of it, including three levels of narrowing steps as the entrance is approached. Flanking the entrance are two Sphinx-like granite lions with women’s heads, the neck of one entwined by a cobra and decorated with the “ankh” (the Egyptian symbol of life and deity). 

 

Adorning the neck and breast of the other is an image of a woman, symbolic of fertility and procreation. In the pavement, just in front of the tall bronze doors, are two Egyptian swords with curved, serpentine blades and, between the two swords, brass letters, set into stone, saying, “The Temple of the Supreme Council of the Thirty- Third and Last Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite.” 

 

Over the tall, bronze doors, cut into the stone, is the statement, “Freemasonry Builds Its Temples in the Hearts of Men and Among Nations.” ! 

 

High above the entrance, partially concealed by stone columns, is an elaborate image of the Egyptian sun god, backed with radiating sun and flanked by six large, golden snakes. 

 

Inside is elegance: polished marble, exotic wood, gold and statuary. There are offices, a library, dining room, kitchen, Council Room, “Temple Room” and a large meeting room. This room is like a luxurious theater, rather elegantly furnished and decorated. The ceiling is dark blue, with lights set into it to give the appearance of stars. These lights can even be made to “twinkle” like stars in the sky. There is a stage, well-equipped, and it is all very nicely done. But the thing that is most noticeable is the way the walls are decorated with serpents. There are all kinds; some very long and large.

 

Many of the Scottish Rite degrees include the representation of serpents and I recognized them among those decorating the walls. 

 

It was all most impressive and gave me a strange mixture of the sensations of being in a temple and in a tomb — something sacred but threatening. I saw busts of outstanding men of the Rite including two of Albert Pike, who is buried there in the wall. 

 

 

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Do you think the snake emblem is related to reptilians as researched in DI's work and others? Also are dragons part of this iconography? We see dragons in the national symbolism of various countries (Wales, England, China), as well as places like the City of London. I'm trying to figure out if all these reptilian references mean something evil or if some are good, and how to tell the difference. 

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5 hours ago, Campion said:

Do you think the snake emblem is related to reptilians as researched in DI's work and others? Also are dragons part of this iconography? We see dragons in the national symbolism of various countries (Wales, England, China), as well as places like the City of London. I'm trying to figure out if all these reptilian references mean something evil or if some are good, and how to tell the difference. 

 

Yeah I think the Snake cult grew out of the Dragon cult. It will feed into the Reptillian idea through the various myths.

 

The Merovingian Dynasty was said to have breeded with a Lizard creature that came out of the Sea and produced Egbert, hence they claimed 'Divine Right to Rule' 

 

It's in one of DI's books, I'm writing from memory but dragon and snake iconography and usage in mythology is all over the place.

 

I think its evil, I think it stems from groups who have used their knowledge for evil - just look at the state of this world.

 

Once again to answer the riddle I think we need to look up.

 

A fiery serpent cast down to the bottomless pit causing fire and destruction perhaps followed by flooding if the dragon or serpent enters a sea.

 

The ancients would have seen this fiery snake streaking across the sky and crashing into our world causing great catastrophe and desolation.

 

The serpent having lost the war in heaven and been cast down awaiting its revenge in a final battle when it's loosed from its prison.

 

The evil force of the universe, the opposer, a Lightbearer, in our Earth influencing mankind.

 

Yeah I think a great civilization was wiped out by a comet strike and morphed into a fiery dragon cult that grew into snake worship.

 

This cult retained knowledge from the old world and managed to conquer the scattered survivors with their scientific knowledge and abilities to build great structures and have retained power ever since.

 

Did you know the Pythagoras theorem has been shown to have been written on a Babylonian tablet 1000 years before Pythagoras?

 

 

 

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Journal of Germanic Mythology & Folklore.

 

Vol 1. Issue 4 2006

 

Containing an article about - Germanic Paganism among the Early Salin Franks.

 

The Cover

 

Journal_Cover.jpg

 

 

The Grand Hailing Sign of Distress for a Freemason.

 

 

Grand_Hailing.jpg

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Vatican = Divine Serpent

 

From the web

 

The word 'Vatican' comes from Latin and is a contraction of two words in the following way:


'Vatis' = 'prophetic' or 'diviner'

'Can' = 'serpent/snake'


These two words combined make: 'the prophetic - or made divine serpent'


The Vatican is a place, so you may say, that 'Vatican' means 'the place of the prophetic - and worshipped serpent'.
Trying to translate 'divining serpent' into every-day-English I would say it means: 'A spiritual serpent that is worshipped as god'.

 

 

Knowing the meaning of the word 'Vatican' no one will be surprised that the crest of the Vatican is 'a serpent-dragon', because that is exactly what the word 'Vatican' says it means and what our Bible says in Revelation 12:9 'the dragon, the old serpent called devil or Satan...'.

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29 minutes ago, pi3141 said:

Vatican = Divine Serpent

 

From the web

 

The word 'Vatican' comes from Latin and is a contraction of two words in the following way:


'Vatis' = 'prophetic' or 'diviner'

'Can' = 'serpent/snake'


These two words combined make: 'the prophetic - or made divine serpent'


The Vatican is a place, so you may say, that 'Vatican' means 'the place of the prophetic - and worshipped serpent'.
Trying to translate 'divining serpent' into every-day-English I would say it means: 'A spiritual serpent that is worshipped as god'.

 

 

Knowing the meaning of the word 'Vatican' no one will be surprised that the crest of the Vatican is 'a serpent-dragon', because that is exactly what the word 'Vatican' says it means and what our Bible says in Revelation 12:9 'the dragon, the old serpent called devil or Satan...'.

 

 

b4f.jpg

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Ancient Semitic religion

 

Ancient Semitic religion  encompasses the polytheistic religions of the Semitic peoples from the ancient Near East and Northeast Africa.

 

Since the term Semitic itself represents a rough category when referring to cultures, as opposed to languages, the definitive bounds of the term "ancient Semitic religion" are only approximate.

 

Semitic traditions and their pantheons[1] fall into regional categories: Canaanite religions of the Levant including among them the polytheistic ancient Hebrew religion of the Israelites; the Sumerian–inspired Assyro-Babylonian religion of Mesopotamia; the religion of Carthage; Nabataean religion; and Arabian polytheism.

Semitic polytheism possibly transitioned into Abrahamic monotheism by way of the god El, whose name "El" אל, or elohim אֱלֹהִים‎ is a word for "god" in Hebrew, cognate to Arabic ʼilāh إله, which means god.

 

Abrahamic Religions 

 

Many scholars believe that the Enuma Elish influenced the Genesis creation narrative.[14][15][16] The Epic of Gilgamesh influenced the Genesis flood narrative. The Sumerian myth of Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta also had influence on the Tower of Babel myth in Genesis.

 

Some writers trace the story of Esther to Babylonian roots.[17]

 

El Elyon also appears in Balaam's story in Numbers and in Moses song in Deuteronomy 32.8. The Masoretic Texts suggest:

 

When the Most High ('Elyōn) divided to the nations their inheritance, he separated the sons of man (Ādām); he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of Israel.

 

Link - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion

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The Jesus Mysteries

 

Was The 'Original Jesus' a Pagan God

 

P32

The International Mysteries

In travelling to Egypt Herodotus was following in the footsteps of another great Greek. Before 670BCE Egypt had been a closed country, in the manner of Tibet or Japan more recently, but in this year she opened her borders, and one of the first Greeks who travelled there in search of ancient wisdom was Pythagoras.

 

History remembers Pythagoras as the first 'Scientist' of the Western World, but although it is true he bought back many  mathematical theories to Greece from Egypt, to his contemporaries he would have been anything but scientific.

 

A wandering charismatic sage, dressed in white robes and crowned with a gold coronet. Pythagoras was part scientist, part priest and part magician. He spent 22 years in the temples of Egypt, becoming an initiate of ancient Egyptian mysteries. On returning to Greece  he began to preach the wisdom he had learned, performing miracles, raising the dead, and giving oracles.

 

 

Ancient Babylonian tablet reveals Pythagorean theorem


The Greek mathematician Pythagoras may not have discovered the Pythagorean theorem but popularized it.

 

ecently, it came to light that Pythagoras did not discover the significant equation: a2 + b2 = c2, which represents the Pythagorean theorem. The Pythagorean theorem states that in a right-angled triangle, the square of the length of the hypotenuse (c) is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides (a and b).

 

Instead, ancient Babylonian mathematicians may have introduced the concept first. Scientists found a Babylonian tablet named IM 67118, which predates Pythagoras by several centuries and uses the principles of the Pythagorean theorem to calculate the length of a diagonal inside a rectangle.

 

According to IFL Science, the tablet is estimated to be from 1770 BC, long before Pythagoras was born. Another tablet was found with labeled triangles inside a square trace back to around 1800-1600 BC. 

 

Pythagoras was born around 570 BC, several centuries after these tablets were created.

 

Link - https://interestingengineering.com/culture/ancient-babylonian-tablet-pythagorean-theorem

 

 

 

So is this another case of the Priest class knowing scientific knowledge for 1000 years before it became 'common knowledge' or taught to the common folk.

 

Like the Earth is a Sphere, there are other Worlds and Planets, the Earth revolves around the Sun etc etc

 

 

 

Was Giordano Bruno Burned at the Stake for Believing in Exoplanets?
Most historians say no, but new evidence suggests otherwise

 

As a history professor, I investigate historical myths. But I couldn’t debunk one: that the Roman Inquisition condemned Bruno partly because of cosmology. Historians insisted it wasn’t true, but were they right? It’s an explosive topic in the alleged conflict between Christianity and science. Scholars defuse this bomb by saying Bruno was no scientist and that the Inquisition condemned him for religious transgressions, not cosmology. The Catholic Encyclopedia takes the same position, stating that “Bruno was not condemned for his defense of the Copernican system of astronomy, nor for his doctrine of the plurality of inhabited worlds.”

 

Likewise, historian Frances Yates declared: “the legend that Bruno was prosecuted as a philosophical thinker, was burned for his daring views on innumerable worlds or on the movement of the Earth, can no longer stand.” Similarly, historian Michael Crowe dismissed the “myth that Giordano Bruno was martyred for his pluralistic convictions.”

 

Not everyone agrees: In 2014, millions of people watched the first episode of the updated version of Carl Sagan’s Cosmos, in which Neil deGrasse Tyson declares that Bruno courted danger when he insisted on the existence of innumerable planets. “The penalty for doing so in his world,” Tyson says, “was the most vicious form of cruel and unusual punishment.” Many critics complained. Without having even read Bruno’s books, many bloggers echoed the popular sentiment that he was a mystic Hermeticist whose temperament and blasphemies led to his death.

 

To be sure, the Inquisitors didn’t condemn him for believing in Copernicus. But Bruno’s belief in Earth’s motion annoyed them—years before they admonished Galileo for the same thing. In 1597, the Inquisitors censured Bruno’s claim that Earth moves. His theory of planetary star systems, which he called “innumerable worlds,” also appears in the extant trial records. Expert historians denied that this amounted to heresy, however. In 2002, for example Bruno historian Leen Spruit argued: Bruno's belief in many worlds was not “formally heretical,” but was maybe “erroneous,” “scandalous,” or “blasphemous.” That was bad, but heresies were worse.

 

But when I examined old treatises on heresies and canon law, I learned otherwise. In fact, in the 1590s Bruno’s claim was considered heretical. Many authorities denounced it, including theologians, jurists, bishops, one emperor, three popes, five Church Fathers and nine saints. In 384 A.D. the belief in many worlds was categorized as heretical by Philaster, Bishop of Brescia, in his Book on Heresies. This condemnation was echoed by subsequent authorities, including Saints Jerome, Augustine and Isidore.

 

Moreover, it was heretical according to the highest authority. In 1582 and 1591, Pope Gregory XIII’s official Corpus of Canon Law included this heresy: “having the opinion of innumerable worlds.” The Canon embodied the laws of the Catholic Church: all inquisitorial and church courts obeyed it.

 

By analyzing all accusations, I found that the Inquisition’s strongest case against Bruno was, in fact, and contrary to the conventional wisdom, his belief in many worlds. It was the most frequently recurring charge. For example, one accuser testified that in prison one night Bruno brought a fellow prisoner “to the window and showed him a star, saying that it was a world and that all the stars were worlds.”

 

Thirteen times, in 10 depositions, six witnesses accused Bruno of believing in many worlds. No other accusation was invoked even half as much. Three witnesses said that Bruno denied transubstantiation, but this transgression was hardly worthy of death, because the Pope had ordered that Lutherans in Rome should be treated well. Besides, Bruno testified that he believed in transubstantiation. Bruno insisted that alleged blasphemies were slander. He emphatically agreed with Catholic doctrines.

 

Link - https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/was-giordano-bruno-burned-at-the-stake-for-believing-in-exoplanets/#:~:text=Already%2C more than 3%2C700 exoplanets,in 1600%2C as a heretic.

 

 

People were burned and tortured for disagreeing with the Church even when the subject was scientific fact, and even known by the Church itself.

 

No Western intellect believed the World was flat for centuries but the Church allowed the people to believe it because the Bible said so and the Bible could not be questioned as the divinely inspired word of God and the basis of truth.

 

This is evidence of historical suppression of knowledge toward the common people perpetuated over 1000 years, in the case of Pythagoras theorem and the Flat Earth and that there are other Worlds and probably other peoples - all known by the Church for 100's and in some case 1000 years before it allowed it to become common knowledge.

 

How many more examples do we need?

 

One is enough.

 

A single truth topples a mountain of lies.

 

 

 

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Pythagoras - Scientist or Mystic?

 

From an article - 

 

Pythagoras the Mystic
March 1, 2001
 

Pythagoras is generally accepted to be one of the most significant fountainheads of Western thought. Of particular interest to Hindus is the fact that his teachings were in tune with the thinking of the far East–especially India. In this article, Peter Westbrook, a writer and lecturer on music and cosmology, amplifies these connections. He is co-author with John Strohmeter of “Divine Harmony,” a book that recounts the fascinating story of the life and teachings of this legendary man.

 

Snip

 

Personal Life
As with many figures from antiquity, facts about Pythagoras’ life are sketchy. Like his contemporary, the Buddha, he is said to be one of those divine men of whom history knows least because their lives were at once transfigured into legend. Nevertheless, a number of early writers have left us biographical information about Pythagoras which we have used to reconstruct his story in our book Divine Harmony: The Life and Teachings of Pythagoras.

 

Pythagoras was born on the Greek island of Samos around 569 bce. Miraculous events surrounded his life from the very beginning. Legend holds that he was the son of Apollo, the Hellenic god of music and learning, and his birth was foretold by the oracle at Delphi. His early years were spent studying at all the centers of scientific and sacred learning in Greece and the eastern Mediterranean. Eventually he made his way to Egypt, where he lived for over twenty years, absorbing Egyptian knowledge of mathematics, music, medicine and the mystical teachings regarding the soul and the stages of its evolution.

 

Pythagoras’ time in Egypt ended when the country was overrun by the armies of the Persian empire and he was taken into captivity in Babylon. This proved to be a blessing in disguise. Recognizing his prodigious learning and receptivity to new ideas, the Persian magi took Pythagoras into their confidence and he became a student of their equally ancient mystery school.

 

Link - https://www.hinduismtoday.com/magazine/march-april-2001/2001-03-pythagoras-the-mystic/

 

 

So did he learn of triangles in Egypt or Babylon - and did Babylon learn about it from from Egypt?

 

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4 hours ago, truepositive said:

I've seen all these snake references before and have a bunch of potential clarifications but all of the plausible ones are creepy. How on earth did this happen without alarm bells going off all over?

 

Secrecy.

 

As we know the Catholic Bible is officially the Latin Vulgate. 

 

Common people could not read their own language let alone a dead foreign one. So nobody knew what the Bible said except what the church told them.

 

It says in the Bible, call no one Father, do the Priests explain that to the Congregation before instructing them to call him Father as a mark of respect and sincerity?

 

Did the common people read the Latin Vulgate to discover for themselves?

 

We're the common people able to obtain original Greek and Hebrew texts to cross reference with the Vulgate?

 

The answer is obviously No. What the church did in the early years was mainly in secret, so I suppose this regalia was introduced without the Congregation knowing.

 

They've lit candles in Churches since forever yet the Bible states start no fires on Sabbaths. Again, did anyone read the Bible?

 

The Protestants did and split from Rome because of the Paganism, Corruption and Popery like Purgatory and the sale of Indulgences.

 

The Council of Trent crushed the Protestants arguments, reaffirmed its infallibility and authority and the formed the Jesuits to go after the Protestants and discredit or destroy them.

 

So it did get noticed but Rome managed to retain control after the Council of Trent.

 

Even now, people don't have eyes to see or wisdom to know.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Easter: Ancient Sumerian Roots of the Resurrection Story.

 

Many ancient religions, including early Hebrew and European pagan traditions, evolved in part out of star worship.  Because so many traditions treated celestial events including the solstices and equinoxes as auspicious, it can be hard to tease out which holiday traditions originated where.  But even Church authorities say that our Easter holiday was named after an Anglo-Saxon fertility goddess alternately known as Estre, Eostre, and Ostara.

 

Over time, religious traditions tend to merge and blend, which the Catholic church saw as an opportunity rather than a problem. Authorities advised early missionaries simply to retain local holidays and rituals and give them new meaning.  A letter from Pope Gregory I to St. Mellitus, credited with Christianizing England, suggested that it would be easiest to convert the heathen Anglo-Saxons this way.

 

In pre-Christian Europe, Lent, which originally meant no more than “spring,” culminated in a day or week celebrating the emergence of new life. A festival of Eostre is associated with the vernal equinox, which landed this year on March 20. The modern Easter holiday draws on both the Anglo-Saxon tradition and the biblical crucifixion stories, which tie the resurrection to the lunar calendar, Passover and Sabbath. Easter is now set for the first Sunday after the first full moon after the equinox. And yet, still today, we celebrate the holiday with ancient symbols of fertility: brightly colored eggs and a highly fertile, promiscuous animal, the hare or rabbit.

But the roots of Easter in goddess worship go much deeper than the name and pagan symbols associated with the holiday. The very death and resurrection story itself may be an adapted and historicized version of a more ancient tale, one that involved a dying and rising goddess. What is that story?

 

Dr. Tony Nugent, scholar of world religions and mythology. Dr. Nugent is a symbologist, an expert in ancient symbols. He taught at Seattle University for fifteen years in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies and is a Presbyterian minister.

 

Easter is coming. Some people are saying that the crucifixion and resurrection narratives simply retell the cycle of seasons, the death and return of the Sun. Others say that these stories are literal histories. But you say the reality is more complicated than either of these. You argue that the Easter stories – the death and resurrection of Jesus have very specific mythic origins.

 

Nugent: I view the story of Christ in the Gospels of the New Testament as a powerful and spiritually wise sacred story. While the story is told as if it happened, it is a theologically and mythically constructed history. The conclusion of the story, the account of Christ’s crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to heaven, has many layers. But at its core I would say it is an historicized version of a very ancient myth from Mesopotamia, the Cradle of Civilization, the land we today call Iraq.

 

What does that mean?

 

Nugent: Some stories speak to people in a deep spiritual way. These sacred stories are what are called “myths” in the field of religious studies. Despite our common usage, a myth traditionally is not just a false tale. Rather, it is a story that, at least at one point in time, had a very powerful spiritual resonance. The story of death and resurrection is one such story. In the Sumerian tradition, in which much of the Bible is rooted, the story is called, “From the Great Above to the Great Below” or  “The Descent of Inanna.”  There is also a Babylonian version of the myth, which is called “The Descent of Ishtar,” and she is known elsewhere as Astarte.

 

Let’s hear the story!

 

Nugent: The Sumerian goddess Inanna is the personification of the planet Venus the “Queen of Heaven” and a major deity in the Sumerian pantheon. A long, long time ago, before humans are even created, Inanna, takes a journey to the Underworld, a realm under the control of her sister Ereshkigal. Before heading out Inanna gives instructions to her assistant about rescuing her if she runs into trouble, which she does. In the underworld, she enters through seven gates, and her worldly attire is removed.  “Naked and bowed low” she is judged, killed, and then hung on display.

 

I can’t help but notice that the number seven is a sacred, just like it will be later in the Bible.

 

Nugent: Yes, the numbers three, seven, twelve are sacred throughout ancient Mesopotamian writings including the Hebrew Bible (seven days of creation, twelve tribes of Israel) and subsequently Christianity (three days in the tomb, twelve apostles, twelve days of Christmas).  They have their roots in universal human perceptions of the movements of the heavens (e.g. twelve signs of the zodiac).

To return to the story, the result of Inanna’s death is that the earth becomes sterile. Plants start drying up, and animals cease having sexual relations. Unless something is done all life on earth will end. After Inanna has been missing for three days her assistant goes to other gods for help.  Finally one of them Enki, creates two creatures who carry the plant of life and water of life down to the Underworld, sprinkling them on Inanna and resurrecting her.  She then prepares to return to the upper realm.

 

So Inanna is the prototype for Jesus in the Easter story?

Nugent: Not quite. She is part of the prototype. After Inanna gets out of the underworld we are introduced to her husband Dumuzi. When mythic stories get passed from one culture to the next, sometimes one character can split into two or two characters come together. In this case, the Jesus of the resurrection story blends parts of Inanna and Dimuzi.

 

Ok, let’s hear about Dumuzi.

Nugent: The Underworld has a number of names, including “the Great Earth” and “the Great City”, and it is also called the “Land of No Return.” If, by extraordinary chance, someone is resurrected or escapes from there, a substitute must be provided. So when Inanna returns to the upper realm she searches for a substitute. She doesn’t want to send anyone who has been missing her and mourning her down there, but she finds her husband Dumuzi on his throne and totally unconcerned about her being gone.  She decides that he will be her substitute.

 

He protests vigorously and is helped to escape by his brother-in-law Utu, the Sun-god. But then a compromise is agreed upon, whereby Dumuzi will spend six months of every year in the Underworld, and for the other six months his devoted sister will substitute for him. Life and fertility thus return to the earth. And that’s how the story ends.

 

Six months up and six down. Now I am reminded of Persephone.

 

Nugent: Yes, and many other dying and rising gods that represent the cycle of the seasons and the stars. In Christianity one way the story changes is that it is detached from this agricultural cycle. The dying happens just once.

But this story of Inanna/Ishtar is the oldest, the prototype?

Nugent: It is one of the earliest epic myths recorded. We know this story because it has been found inscribed on cuneiform clay tablets dug up from the sands of Iraq by archaeologists, and because linguists have deciphered the Sumerian language and provided translations in English. This was a popular myth, and so we have multiple copies of it, or of portions of it. The earliest tablets inscribed with this story date to the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC, and it is thought to have been originally formulated about 2100 BC, i.e., 4200 years ago.

 

Lay it out for us. How do you see this being a prototype for the story of Christ’s death and resurrection?

 

Nugent: Let’s start with the first part of the myth. Inanna and Jesus both travel to a big city, where they are arrested by soldiers, put on trial, convicted, sentenced to death, stripped of their clothes, tortured, hung up on a stake, and die. And then, after 3 days, they are resurrected from the dead. Now there are, to be sure, a number of significant differences between the stories. For one thing, one story is about a goddess and the other is about a divine man. But this is a specific pattern, a mythic template. When you are dealing with the question of whether these things actually happened, you have to deal with the fact that there is a mythic template here. It doesn’t necessarily mean that there wasn’t a real person, Jesus, who was crucified, but rather that, if there was, the story about it is structured and embellished in accordance with a pattern that was very ancient and widespread.

 

So what about the 2nd part of the myth?

 

Nugent: The 2nd part of the Inanna myth really focuses on her husband Dumuzi. Dumuzi is the prototype of the non-aggressive, non-heroic male; he cries easily; he is the opposite of the warrior-god in the ancient pantheon. The summer month which corresponds to our month of July is named after him in both the Babylonian and Hebrew calendars, and during this month each year his followers, mostly women, mourn his death. From this myth we are talking about, and from a few other references, we also know that he is resurrected. But unlike Jesus, who dies and is resurrected once, he is imagined to die and be resurrected over and over, each year. There are other major differences. However, there really are a lot of similarities between the personalities and the stories of Jesus and Dumuzi. They both are tortured and die violent deaths after being betrayed by a close friend, who accepts a bribe from his enemies. They both have a father who is a god and a mother who is human. Dumuzi’s father, the god Enki, also has many similarities to Yahweh, the father of Jesus.

 

Other than this gospel story, are there any other signs of Inanna’s influence on Christianity or on Easter?

 

Nugent: There are a few points I would mention. Inanna becomes known outside of Mesopotamia by her Babylonian name, “Ishtar”. She is a personification of Venus as an evening star, and there is also a male aspect of the deity who is usually the morning star. At the end of the Book of Revelation when Christ speaks to John he says, “I am the bright morning star.” In ancient Canaan Ishtar is known as Astarte, and her counterparts in the Greek and Roman pantheons are known as Aphrodite and Venus. In the 4th Century, when Christians got around to identifying the exact site in Jerusalem where the empty tomb of Jesus had been located, they selected the spot where a temple of Aphrodite (Astarte/Ishtar/Inanna) stood. So they tore it down and built the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the holiest church in the Christian world.

Also, our holiday of Easter was traditionally called ‘Pascha’, and still is in many languages, named after the Jewish festival of ‘Pesach’ or Passover. In the Germanic and Anglo-Saxon world we have, however, come to name the holiday ‘Easter’. In the pagan spiritual traditions of Germany and England during the medieval period, the goddess Easter who is a deity of rebirth became strongly associated with the season of springtime and ultimately gave her name to Christianity’s main holy day.

 

No rudeness intended, but how can you call yourself a Christian? Mark Driscoll, rising Evangelical star, told his Seattle congregation: “If the resurrection of Christ didn’t literally happen, there is no reason for us to be here.”

 

Nugent: Well, many Christian theologians see the crucifixion and resurrection as a spiritual story rather than a literal one–a story about hope beyond despair, redemption and new life.  But they are not the ones who get the media attention. I consider myself to be a Christian in a spiritual sense, not in a doctrinal sense. This means my Christianity is defined by values, spiritual practices, and faith rather than belief in a specific set of doctrinal agreements. Before the 4th Century, when orthodoxy was established, Christianity was characterized by heterodoxy — many different forms of belief.

If the resurrection of Christ didn’t literally happen, that shouldn’t have any bearing on whether life now is worth living or how we live. From my vantage point, where values and practices are the heart of Christianity, the contradiction lies in people like our recent president who think it’s ok to practice torture and yet call themselves Christians. Who would Jesus waterboard? Christ’s torture and execution remind us that we are called to put an end to such practices in human affairs. From the standpoint of my Christianity, right-wing Evangelical fundamentalism is really the opposite of what Christ was about. Those who subscribe to an intolerant, arrogant, inhumane form of Christianity are following a religion that is literally antichrist.

 

Link - https://valerietarico.com/2013/03/28/ancient-sumerian-origins-of-the-easter-story/

 

Edited by pi3141
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Inanna

Inanna[a] is the ancient Mesopotamian goddess of love, war, and fertility. She is also associated with beauty, sex, divine law, and political power. Originally worshiped in Sumer, she was known by the Akkadian Empire, Babylonians, and Assyrians as Ishtar[b] (and occasionally the logogram 𒌋𒁯). Her primary title was "the Queen of Heaven".

 

She was the patron goddess of the Eanna temple at the city of Uruk, her early main cult center. In archaic Uruk she was worshiped in three forms: morning Inanna (Inana-UD/hud), evening Inanna (Inanna sig) and princely Inanna (Inanna NUN), the former two reflecting the phases of her associated planet Venus.[5][6] Her most prominent symbols included the lion and the eight-pointed star. Her husband was the god Dumuzid (later known as Tammuz), and her sukkal (attendant) was the goddess Ninshubur, later conflated with the male deities Ilabrat and Papsukkal.

 

Inanna was worshiped in Sumer at least as early as the Uruk period (c. 4000 BCE – 3100 BCE), and her cultic activity was relatively localized before the conquest of Sargon of Akkad. During the post-Sargonic era, she became one of the most widely venerated deities in the Sumerian pantheon,[7][8] with temples across Mesopotamia. The cult of Inanna / Ishtar, which may have been associated with a variety of sexual rites, was continued by the East Semitic-speaking peoples (Akkadians, Assyrians and Babylonians) who succeeded and absorbed the Sumerians in the region.

 

She was especially beloved by the Assyrians, who elevated her to become the highest deity in their pantheon, ranking above their own national god Ashur. Inanna / Ishtar is alluded to in the Hebrew Bible, and she greatly influenced the Ugaritic goddess Ashtart and later the Phoenician goddess Astarte, who in turn possibly influenced the development of the Greek goddess Aphrodite. Her cult continued to flourish until its gradual decline between the first and sixth centuries CE in the wake of Christianity.

 

Etymology


Scholars believe that Inanna and Ishtar were originally separate, unrelated deities,[13] but were conflated with one another during the reign of Sargon of Akkad and came to be regarded as effectively the same goddess under two different names.[14][c] Inanna's name may derive from the Sumerian phrase nin-an-ak, meaning "Lady of Heaven",[16][17] but the cuneiform sign for Inanna (𒈹) is not a ligature of the signs lady (Sumerian: nin; cuneiform: 𒊩𒌆 SAL.TUG2) and sky (Sumerian: an; cuneiform: 𒀭 AN).[17][16][18] These difficulties led some early Assyriologists to suggest that Inanna may have originally been a Proto-Euphratean goddess, who was only later accepted into the Sumerian pantheon. This idea was supported by Inanna's youthfulness, as well as the fact that, unlike the other Sumerian divinities, she seems to have initially lacked a distinct sphere of responsibilities.[17] The view that there was a Proto-Euphratean substrate language in Southern Iraq before Sumerian is not widely accepted by modern Assyriologists.[19]

The name Ishtar occurs as an element in personal names from both the pre-Sargonic and post-Sargonic eras in Akkad, Assyria, and Babylonia.[20] It is of Semitic derivation[21][20] and is probably etymologically related to the name of the West Semitic god Attar, who is mentioned in later inscriptions from Ugarit and southern Arabia.[21][20] The morning star may have been conceived as a male deity who presided over the arts of war and the evening star may have been conceived as a female deity who presided over the arts of love.[20] Among the Akkadians, Assyrians, and Babylonians, the name of the male god eventually supplanted the name of his female counterpart,[22] but, due to extensive syncretism with Inanna, the deity remained as female, although her name was in the masculine form.

 

Symbols


Inanna/Ishtar's most common symbol was the eight-pointed star,[74] though the exact number of points sometimes varies.[75] Six-pointed stars also occur frequently, but their symbolic meaning is unknown.[79] The eight-pointed star seems to have originally borne a general association with the heavens,[80] but, by the Old Babylonian Period (c. 1830 – c. 1531 bce), it had come to be specifically associated with the planet Venus, with which Ishtar was identified.[80] Starting during this same period, the star of Ishtar was normally enclosed within a circular disc.[79] During later Babylonian times, slaves who worked in Ishtar's temples were sometimes branded with the seal of the eight-pointed star.[79][81] On boundary stones and cylinder seals, the eight-pointed star is sometimes shown alongside the crescent moon, which was the symbol of Sin (Sumerian Nanna) and the rayed solar disk, which was a symbol of Shamash (Sumerian Utu).[75]

 

As the planet Venus


Inanna was associated with the planet Venus, which is named after her Roman equivalent Venus.[41][88][41] Several hymns praise Inanna in her role as the goddess or personification of the planet Venus.[89] Theology professor Jeffrey Cooley has argued that, in many myths, Inanna's movements may correspond with the movements of the planet Venus in the sky.[89] In Inanna's Descent to the Underworld, unlike any other deity, Inanna is able to descend into the netherworld and return to the heavens. The planet Venus appears to make a similar descent, setting in the West and then rising again in the East.[89] An introductory hymn describes Inanna leaving the heavens and heading for Kur, what could be presumed to be the mountains, replicating the rising and setting of Inanna to the West.[89] In Inanna and Shukaletuda, Shukaletuda is described as scanning the heavens in search of Inanna, possibly searching the Eastern and Western horizons.[90] In the same myth, while searching for her attacker, Inanna herself makes several movements that correspond with the movements of Venus in the sky.[89]

 

Because the movements of Venus appear to be discontinuous (it disappears due to its proximity to the Sun, for many days at a time, and then reappears on the other horizon), some cultures did not recognize Venus as a single entity;[89] instead, they assumed it to be two separate stars on each horizon: the morning and evening star.[89] Nonetheless, a cylinder seal from the Jemdet Nasr period indicates that the ancient Sumerians knew that the morning and evening stars were the same celestial object.[89] The discontinuous movements of Venus relate to both mythology as well as Inanna's dual nature.[89]

 

Modern astrologers recognize the story of Inanna's descent into the underworld as a reference to an astronomical phenomenon associated with retrograde Venus. Seven days before retrograde Venus makes its inferior conjunction with the sun, it disappears from the evening sky. The seven day period between this disappearance and the conjunction itself is seen as the astronomical phenomenon on which the myth of descent was based. After the conjunction, seven more days elapse before Venus appears as the morning star, corresponding to the ascent from the underworld.[91][92]

 

Inanna in her aspect as Anunītu was associated with the eastern fish of the last of the zodiacal constellations, Pisces.[93][94] Her consort Dumuzi was associated with the contiguous first constellation, Aries.[93]

 

Family

 

Dumuzid (later known as Tammuz), the god of shepherds, is usually described as Inanna's husband,[127] but according to some interpretations Inanna's loyalty to him is questionable;[28] in the myth of her descent into the Underworld, she abandons Dumuzid and permits the galla demons to drag him down into the underworld as her replacement.[144][145] In a different myth, The Return of Dumuzid Inanna instead mourns over Dumuzid's death and ultimately decrees that he will be allowed to return to Heaven to be with her for one half of the year.[146][145] Dina Katz notes that the portrayal of their relationship in Inanna's Descent is unusual;[105] it does not resemble the portrayal of their relationship in other myths about Dumuzi's death, which almost never pin the blame for it on Inanna, but rather on demons or even human bandits.[104] 

 

Sumerian Texts

 

Origin Myths

 

The myth of "Inanna and the Huluppu Tree", found in the preamble to the epic of Gilgamesh, Enkidu, and the Netherworld (ETCSL 1.8.1.4),[197] centers around a young Inanna, not yet stable in her power.[198][199] It begins with a huluppu tree, which Kramer identifies as possibly a willow,[200] growing on the banks of the river Euphrates.[200][201] Inanna moves the tree to her garden in Uruk with the intention to carve it into a throne once it is fully grown.[200][201] The tree grows and matures, but the serpent "who knows no charm", the Anzû-bird, and Lilitu (Ki-Sikil-Lil-La-Ke in Sumerian),[202] seen by some as the Sumerian forerunner to the Lilith of Jewish folklore, all take up residence within the tree, causing Inanna to cry with sorrow.[200][201] The hero Gilgamesh, who, in this story, is portrayed as her brother, comes along and slays the serpent, causing the Anzû-bird and Lilitu to flee.[203][201] Gilgamesh's companions chop down the tree and carve its wood into a bed and a throne, which they give to Inanna,[204][201] who fashions a pikku and a mikku (probably a drum and drumsticks respectively, although the exact identifications are uncertain),[205] which she gives to Gilgamesh as a reward for his heroism.[206][201]

 

The Sumerian hymn Inanna and Utu contains an etiological myth describing how Inanna became the goddess of sex.[207] At the beginning of the hymn, Inanna knows nothing of sex,[207] so she begs her brother Utu to take her to Kur (the Sumerian underworld),[207] so that she may taste the fruit of a tree that grows there,[207] which will reveal to her all the secrets of sex.[207] Utu complies and, in Kur, Inanna tastes the fruit and becomes knowledgeable.[207] The hymn employs the same motif found in the myth of Enki and Ninhursag and in the later Biblical story of Adam and Eve.[207]

 

The poem Inanna Prefers the Farmer (ETCSL 4.0.8.3.3) begins with a rather playful conversation between Inanna and Utu, who incrementally reveals to her that it is time for her to marry.[11][208] She is courted by a farmer named Enkimdu and a shepherd named Dumuzid.[11] At first, Inanna prefers the farmer,[11] but Utu and Dumuzid gradually persuade her that Dumuzid is the better choice for a husband, arguing that, for every gift the farmer can give to her, the shepherd can give her something even better.[209] In the end, Inanna marries Dumuzid.[209] The shepherd and the farmer reconcile their differences, offering each other gifts.[210] Samuel Noah Kramer compares the myth to the later Biblical story of Cain and Abel because both myths center around a farmer and a shepherd competing for divine favor and, in both stories, the deity in question ultimately chooses the shepherd.[11]

 

Descent Into Underworld

 

Two different versions of the story of Inanna/Ishtar's descent into the underworld have survived:[251][252] a Sumerian version dating to the Third Dynasty of Ur (circa 2112 bce – 2004 bce) (ETCSL 1.4.1)[251][252] and a clearly derivative Akkadian version from the early second millennium bce.[251][252][g] The Sumerian version of the story is nearly three times the length of the later Akkadian version and contains much greater detail.[254]


Sumerian version


In Sumerian religion, the Kur was conceived of as a dark, dreary cavern located deep underground;[255] life there was envisioned as "a shadowy version of life on earth".[255] It was ruled by Inanna's sister, the goddess Ereshkigal.[131][255] Before leaving, Inanna instructs her minister and servant Ninshubur to plead with the deities Enlil, Nanna, An, and Enki to rescue her if she does not return after three days.[256][257] The laws of the underworld dictate that, with the exception of appointed messengers, those who enter it may never leave.[256] Inanna dresses elaborately for the visit; she wears a turban, wig, lapis lazuli necklace, beads upon her breast, the 'pala dress' (the ladyship garment), mascara, a pectoral, and golden ring, and holds a lapis lazuli measuring rod.[258][259] Each garment is a representation of a powerful me she possesses.[260]

 

snip

 

Three days and three nights pass, and Ninshubur, following instructions, goes to the temples of Enlil, Nanna, An, and Enki, and pleads with each of them to rescue Inanna.[271][272][273] The first three deities refuse, saying Inanna's fate is her own fault,[271][274][275] but Enki is deeply troubled and agrees to help.[276][277][275] He creates two sexless figures named gala-tura and the kur-jara from the dirt under the fingernails of two of his fingers.[276][278][275] He instructs them to appease Ereshkigal[276][278] and, when she asks them what they want, ask for the corpse of Inanna, which they must sprinkle with the food and water of life.[276][278] When they come before Ereshkigal, she is in agony like a woman giving birth.[279] She offers them whatever they want, including life-giving rivers of water and fields of grain, if they can relieve her,[280] but they refuse all of her offers and ask only for Inanna's corpse.[279] The gala-tura and the kur-jara sprinkle Inanna's corpse with the food and water of life and revive her.[281][282][275] Galla demons sent by Ereshkigal follow Inanna out of the underworld, insisting that someone else must be taken to the underworld as Inanna's replacement.[283][284][275] They first come upon Ninshubur and attempt to take her,[283][284][275] but Inanna stops them, insisting that Ninshubur is her loyal servant and that she had rightfully mourned for her while she was in the underworld.[283][284][275] They next come upon Shara, Inanna's beautician, who is still in mourning.[285][286][275] The demons attempt to take him, but Inanna insists that they may not, because he had also mourned for her.[287][288][275] The third person they come upon is Lulal, who is also in mourning.[287][289][275] The demons try to take him, but Inanna stops them once again.[287][289][275]

 

Finally, they come upon Dumuzid, Inanna's husband.[290][275] Despite Inanna's fate, and in contrast to the other individuals who were properly mourning her, Dumuzid is lavishly clothed and resting beneath a tree, or upon her throne, entertained by slave-girls. Inanna, displeased, decrees that the galla shall take him.[290][275][291] The galla then drag Dumuzid down to the underworld.[290][275] Another text known as Dumuzid's Dream (ETCSL 1.4.3) describes Dumuzid's repeated attempts to evade capture by the galla demons, an effort in which he is aided by the sun-god Utu.[292][293][h]

 

In the Sumerian poem The Return of Dumuzid, which begins where The Dream of Dumuzid ends, Dumuzid's sister Geshtinanna laments continually for days and nights over Dumuzid's death, joined by Inanna, who has apparently experienced a change of heart, and Sirtur, Dumuzid's mother.[294] The three goddesses mourn continually until a fly reveals to Inanna the location of her husband.[295] Together, Inanna and Geshtinanna go to the place where the fly has told them they will find Dumuzid.[296] They find him there and Inanna decrees that, from that point onwards, Dumuzid will spend half of the year with her sister Ereshkigal in the underworld and the other half of the year in Heaven with her, while his sister Geshtinanna takes his place in the underworld.[297][275][298]

 

Link - Wiki

 

 

So we have Fishes in the form of Pisces, we have Shepherds, a descent to the underworld, resurrection after 3 days, the Morning Star, we have a Serpent in the creation myths and the Apple that bestows knowledge.

 

I've said on another thread - the writers of the Bible would not have seen an Apple so where did this symbology come from?

 

In the Descent myth, the brother, who is associated with the Sun, must spend 6 months in the Underworld, and 6 months in Heaven. Like the Sun descending in to the Bottomless Pit where it struggles against the forces of darkness until its death for 3 days and rebirth at the Winter Solstice signalling its resurrection and the world coming back to life, when the Sun will reign or Triumph once again and bring light to the world.

 

Like Jesus.

 

'Our God is an all consuming fire'
Epistles.

 

Joshua 10:12
On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”

 

Joshua spoke to His Lord, saying Sun, stand still' - so who is Joshua's Lord?

Why didn't Joshua ask the Lord to make the Sun stand still? 
Why did Joshua speak directly to the Sun?

 

The name Jesus reduces to 'God of Fire'

Jesus / Iesus /Iesos

the 'us' and the 'os' are Latin and Greek terminations, additions to the original name.
Hence the original name is 'Ies'
The root is 'I' = God, the One God, the Great God, and 'es' is Fire'

 

The Great God of Fire.

 

The Great God of Fire that travels through the Constellations in the Heavens, and fights the forces of Darkness to bring Life and Light to the World. The Great God of Fire that spends 6 months in the Underworld or Bottomless Pit before being resurrected and returning from the East at Easter to bring life to the desolate world.

 

When he reigns supreme in Summer and at the Solstice casts judgement by giving equal Light during the day to both Hemispheres of the World.

Religion is just a Circus for the masses, from the Roman 'Bread and Circuses' we have Sports and Religion, both provide a Spectacle for the participants and both develop an obsession in the followers that distracts them from the drudgery of weekly life.

 

Both foster a feeling of belonging and acceptance and because 'everyone is doing it' it becomes the norm.

 

Throw in a spot of Fear and you have a control system, fit for the masses. Weekly spectacles and enough Bread to survive to stop them rebelling.

 

This is not my idea, this thought has been around since Dupuis first wrote about it in the 15th Century, it was raised again with the Protestant Reformation in the 17th Century, questioned again in the 19th century by Rev Taylor and Madam Blavatsky among others.

In our generation we have Zeitgeist.

 

This is the control system but its Gods and Demons are fantasy, based on Nature.

 

As always with the Occult, there are many levels so woven in all that storytelling, is a Golden Thread of Truth.
 

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1 hour ago, pi3141 said:

Etymology


Scholars believe that Inanna and Ishtar were originally separate, unrelated deities,[13] but were conflated with one another during the reign of Sargon of Akkad and came to be regarded as effectively the same goddess under two different names.[14][c] Inanna's name may derive from the Sumerian phrase nin-an-ak, meaning "Lady of Heaven",[16][17] but the cuneiform sign for Inanna (𒈹) is not a ligature of the signs lady (Sumerian: nin; cuneiform: 𒊩𒌆 SAL.TUG2) and sky (Sumerian: an; cuneiform: 𒀭 AN).[17][16][18] These difficulties led some early Assyriologists to suggest that Inanna may have originally been a Proto-Euphratean goddess, who was only later accepted into the Sumerian pantheon.

 

 

 

Proto-Euphratean language

 

Proto-Euphratean is a hypothetical unclassified language or languages which was considered by some Assyriologists (such as Samuel Noah Kramer) to be the substratum language of the people who introduced farming into Southern Iraq in the Early Ubaid period (5300–4700 BC).

 

Dyakonov and Ardzinba identified these hypothetical languages with the Samarran culture.[1]

 

Benno Landsberger and other Assyriologists argued that by examining the structure of Sumerian names of occupations, as well as toponyms and hydronyms, one can suggest that there was once an earlier group of people in the region who spoke an entirely different language, often referred to as Proto-Euphratean. Terms for "farmer", "smith", "carpenter", and "date" (the fruit) do not appear to have a Sumerian or Semitic origin.

 

Igor Dyakonov and Vladislav Ardzinba proposed a different term, "banana languages", based on a characteristic feature of multiple personal names attested in Sumerian texts, namely reduplication of syllables (as in the English word banana): Inanna, Zababa, Chuwawa/Humbaba, Bunene, Pazuzu, etc found in Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian and Babylonian texts. The same feature was attested in some other unclassified languages, including Minoan. The same feature is allegedly attested by several names of Hyksos rulers: although the Hyksos tribes were Semitic Canaanites, some of their names, like Bnon, Apophis, etc. were apparently non-Semitic in origin.[2]

 

Rubio challenged the substratum hypothesis, arguing that there is evidence of borrowing from more than one language. This theory is now predominant in the field (Piotr Michalowski, Gerd Steiner, etc.).

 

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@pi3141 this I found interesting in gospel of st Thomas. Not sure what to make of it

 

16) Jesus says:

 

(1) “Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the earth.

(2) But they do not know that I have come to cast dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

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1 hour ago, Mr H said:

@pi3141 this I found interesting in gospel of st Thomas. Not sure what to make of it

 

16) Jesus says:

 

(1) “Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the earth.

(2) But they do not know that I have come to cast dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

 

It reminds me of a gospel quote, perhaps they're related? 

 

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household” (Matthew 10:34-36).

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1 minute ago, Campion said:

 

It reminds me of a gospel quote, perhaps they're related? 

 

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household” (Matthew 10:34-36).

Very similar.

 

What do you think it means?

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12 hours ago, Mr H said:

Very similar.

 

What do you think it means?

 

Well I don't have recent experience with Christian churches, but I remember this quote being an embarrassment as I was brought up in a rather liberal church of England environment which saw Jesus as the prince of peace who taught that we should all get along and love each other. 

 

In my more recent reading about Jesus I've come across various theories, one of which is that he was a Zealot, or at least influenced by the Zealots who may have talked like that, ie a physical struggle for freedom from the Roman occupation. Put together with the story about him turning over the tables of the money changers in the temple, paints a picture of an aggressive firebrand for Christians who want that. 

 

Another theory could be that the quote is metaphorical, and is really about a spiritual struggle, in much the same way we might talk about a moral crusade or the muslims talk about jihad. 

 

In any case there's room for a lot of ambiguity and different interpretations like with a lot of religious scriptures, so no wonder there's so many denominations. 

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12 minutes ago, Campion said:

 

Well I don't have recent experience with Christian churches, but I remember this quote being an embarrassment as I was brought up in a rather liberal church of England environment which saw Jesus as the prince of peace who taught that we should all get along and love each other. 

 

In my more recent reading about Jesus I've come across various theories, one of which is that he was a Zealot, or at least influenced by the Zealots who may have talked like that, ie a physical struggle for freedom from the Roman occupation. Put together with the story about him turning over the tables of the money changers in the temple, paints a picture of an aggressive firebrand for Christians who want that. 

 

Another theory could be that the quote is metaphorical, and is really about a spiritual struggle, in much the same way we might talk about a moral crusade or the muslims talk about jihad. 

 

In any case there's room for a lot of ambiguity and different interpretations like with a lot of religious scriptures, so no wonder there's so many denominations. 

Awesome Info. Thanks🙏

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On 12/14/2023 at 7:08 PM, Mr H said:

@pi3141 this I found interesting in gospel of st Thomas. Not sure what to make of it

 

16) Jesus says:

 

(1) “Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the earth.

(2) But they do not know that I have come to cast dissension upon the earth: fire, sword, war.

 

 

Awesome, thanks for bringing this up!

 

I get to name drop on my own thread - Lux Horus

 

Lux Horus was a great poster on the old forum and he loved to debate the Christians and their perception of Christ. He had sources to show that Jesus was not the 'Hippy Dippy Peacenik' the Christians venerate but maybe a warrior priest who would just as soon run you through with his sword. He used to quote that verse.

 

So we have the warrior Jesus, the healer Jesus, the Buddhist Jesus (some of his teachings are very similar) we have the Essene/Gnostic Jesus. How can all these Jesus' be true when some are contradictory?

 

To me, this sort of thing in the Bible legend shows that the story as presented is not entirely true. Jesus was known as Jesus of Nazareth in a time that Nazareth didn't exist.

 

So what are we looking at?

 

As I have presented on this thread if all these depictions of Christ are true then they must all be about different people and rolled into the Jesus story as his legend.

 

The Bible Jesus is a conglomerate of several historical figures, woven into a dramatized documentary - a docudrama. Based on real events, names and places changed to protect the innocent.

 

Chestus being one of them. Chrestus tried to lead an armed revolt and was, as Campion has mentioned, quite likely a Zealot. Now the fact the 'Chrestus' later changed to 'Christus' appears in the historical accounts, is used as evidence for the existence of Jesus. Its pretty much the only historical proof despite its proven alteration its still accepted as being a reference to Christ, although why is a mystery because we know of any such event as an armed revolt led by the peace loving Jesus.

 

So you see, contradictions all over the place and the only way they all fit together is if they all describe different people and have been appropriated for the Jesus story.

 

That quote probably came from Chrestus and not Christus, but their tales have been woven together.

 

 

 

Edited by pi3141
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