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I find religions fascinating, the books we have are some of the oldest written records. They offer an insight into early psychology and most importantly of all they are said to contain wisdom from God. I originally thought to call this thread Christianity but I mention other religions and I suspect the same of all religions so lets have a discussion about religions. This is a simple OP hopefully touching on the reasons why I reject organized religion. I am no expert but there are some knowledgeable people on this site so hopefully it can generate interesting discussion.

 

Christianity is based on a book whose stories contain symbology, allegory and gematria and likely other codes. It is said to contain '7 seals' An example of allegory is the saying 'A rich man can enter heaven as easily as you can thread a camel through the eye of a needle' To most of us this means its impossible for a rich man to enter heaven or some say it refers to a narrow opening. But apparently that may not be true. One interpretation of that saying is this - Jerusalem was a walled city and there were gates to enter and leave one gate was called The Needle. At night (Symbolic of death) the gates to the city would be closed. However you could still enter the city by the way of a small gate within the bigger gate, this small gate is called the 'Eye' Hence 'The Eye of the Needle'

So for a rich man to enter the city at night, first he would have to wait in line, then he would have to unload his camel of his possessions. Finally, he can walk the camel through the needle on its knee's (camels can walk on their knees) So the lesson is a rich man can enter heaven if he is patient, unloads himself of worldy possessions and enters humbly (on his knee's) This is one example of allegory I know where the Bible story is interpreted differently to that which appears to be presented.

 

I've read the Torah starts with the letter T and every 50th letter it spells out TORAH, heavily indicating it is a concisely structured book which lends itself to the notion the book is written in code. I've read that when a chapter begins with 'O' that is a signal for a secret teaching to be inserted, one not written in the book.

 

In addition to this the Bible books contain Gematria where names and places have been switched with other names and places of the same numerical value i.e where A=1, B=2, C-3 etc. Then neames or places can be given a numerical value and switched with another word with the same numerical value.

 

Its appears Christianity contains Pagan myths encoded into its teachings, one example of this is Sun worship encoded in the fable of Jesus which has been covered all over the internet. The Christians worship on the day of the Sun, in a temple orientated to the Suns' rise and setting. They celebrate at various days of the year relating to the Sun's transition across the sky. Jesus was not born on 25th December. The Catholic church or rather Jesuits have telescopes trained on the sun, studying it. Do they report their findings to the congregation? What is the religious purpose of studying the sun? Sun worship is a part of Paganism and many connect it to Baal worship. Baal is often portrayed as the Hebrew God's main adversary. Baal also means owner or Lord.

 

St Peters square appears to be a giant Sundial with its central Obelisk.

 

The name Peter being close to Pater which was the title given to the leader of Pagan sects and hence chosen to be the originator of Christianity.

 

Holy communion is, to my view, akin to ritualized cannibalism at worst and at best it is the celebration of the Sun's power through eating the fruits of its rays - bread and wine, and hence Sun worship, 

According to John Allegro Christianity contains Magic Mushroom cult influences, again, shamanic or pagan like beliefs.

 

The Buddhists say, Jesus visited the Far East and studied Buddhism taking the teachings back with him and there are people like Bill Donahue who are trying to decode the Buddhist teachings of Jesus. Its just possible that by studying Buddhism you are following Christ.

 

Interestingly where were the 3 wise men from? They came from the East, well East of the Middle East where Jesus was born is the Far East, is it possible Buddhists visited Jesus's birth as the 3 wise men? Its been said they may have been from Persia and followed Zoroastrianism.

 

It has been said ending a prayer with Amen assigns the prayer to Amon the Egyptian god. As stated above, Baal means Owner or Lord. If we address our prayers to Lord are we directing them to Baal?

Catholics pray to saints and also to the Pope, you see them kneel at statues - this is idolatry and forbidden according to their own religion. Paganism involved the worship of many deity's. I've read that Judaism is based on Pagan myths and of course Christianity is based on Judaism. It is also said Jesus and Christianity was made up by the Roman Piso family. There was a leaflet circulating back in the 70's that laid out the conspiracy and used Gematria to prove certain names were interchangeable with Piso family names. Hence Jesus may be a Roman creation. The Jews were supposedly in on this deception or rather were the only ones, other than the Piso family, to know about it.

 

If I remember correctly there was also supposed to be a famous letter written from some church leader to another about the church getting rich off the myth of Jesus.

 

I can't understand circumcision, religious people believe God is perfect and everything he does is perfect and yet they seem to think when it comes to designing men, he got it wrong and they need to 'correct' his mistake. Its unbelievable and wrong on many levels. 

 

Same with drugs, God designed all of creation yet somehow he also designed 'bad plants' that we should not use, again, if God created  everything he did it for a reason and we shouldn't assume he made mistakes. Bill Hicks spoke about that. There appears to be links with Jesus and Cannabis, cannabis oil being one of the tools he used to heal. Also, it is thought Cannabis incense was burnt in churches to help attain a spiritual state. Some, Rastafarian believe Cannabis is the Tree of Knowledge. Coptic Christians use it to enter a spiritual state. Has its use been suppressed to us by the Church?

 

Is Jesus Lucifer/Satan? Thats an interesting thought, it seems a few people think so. It came up on the old forum but its down right now otherwise I would have copied and pasted from them to put some views up. I'm very interested to hear peoples theories on that. If we are guided by spiritual energies yet we are blind as humans to that realm how can we be sure who the guide is. The spiritual guide could present itself as anything and we are unable to know for sure what it is. Maybe Jesus is Lucifer with a different mask on and when we die the mask is removed and the true teacher revealed. Maybe the true guide is neither Jesus or Lucifer its just it appears to us as one or the other or one of a number of other deities we supposedly know about. Lucifer (perhaps a Latin word) or Satan is supposed to turn humanity to worship him, he would not be openly able to do this so it is logical that he would try to deceive us into worshiping him as something else, most Christians worship Jesus as God, hence it would be a good trick for Satan to appear as Jesus and divert worship from God to him.

 

Who is Jesus Christ? Thats not even his real name its a corruption of Latin and English, his Roman name would be Jesus Christus but we leave off the 'us' to Anglicize it thus his English name should be Jes Christ, but Christ is just a title. So what does 'Jes' mean? You have to break it down into its roots and radicals. First off, there isn't a 'J' in Hebrew or Greek, so the 'J' translates to 'I' so we have 'Ies' breaking that down we get 'I' the Greek and Hebrew symbol for God or the One Great God and 'es' which is Phoenician for Fire. Hence Ies stands for Great God of Fire. What was the great God of fire in Paganism? The Sun. Hence Jesus's name means Great God of Fire.

 

Christians have different versions for his real name and if I remember correctly the Buddhists called him Esa or Isa, so do the Muslims. So why do we have Jesus Christ as his name born on 25th December as central to Christian faith when both facts are untrue? Do they even know his real name? How can Christians be sure if they are praying to Jesus Christ that they are praying to the right entity. My guess is that Jesus Christ is his title and thus by praying to the title they are directing their prayer to the Man or God that is Jesus. So here is an example of deflected worship.

 

Regarding communicating with energies, the Bible itself warns us against any dealings with the occult or even astrology. Hence dealing with spiritual energies is not advised yest Religions are themselves occult, they deal witht the spiritual realm and hence the dead. We celebrate the dead on Halloweens day, a festival lots of Christians join in with yet in reality its a morbid thing to celebrate. Same as Jesus on the cross, as Bill Hicks said 'If Jesus comes back do you think he will want to see another cross?' Why then don't Christians use the Fish for instance as his symbol. (some do, called Church Of Ichthus bu they again seem to be based on pagan ideals) 

 

According to an archaeological study it seems God originally had a wife - Asherah. I've often wondered in the Genesis verse where God says 'Let US make Man in OUR image' who he was talking to. Of course then he made a Man and then a Man and Woman (thats if you read the King James version). Where has the female God gone?

 

Did Jesus have a wife? The Gnostic texts talk of Jesus kissing Mary on the mouth. The Gnostic's believed sex bought a couple closer to God. So is it likely Jesus had sexual relations with Mary? Its likely he was a man after all. As a religious Jewish man it would also be expected of him to take a wife. Did he and Mary marry? Some interpret the wedding at Canna where Jesus turned water into wine as their own wedding ceremony. There is Gnostic and Apocryphal gospels that suggest Jesus had a wife. There is the Cult of Mary Magdalene in France where if I remember correctly Mary was depicted with child. Could there be a bloodline?

 

The Bible translations differ from the originals regarding the creation of man, in the Anchor Bible series which purports to be a literal translation of the original texts, the verse apparently reads - God first made a Human (without sex) and from this Human it took a side (half) and then created Man and Woman. Hence man was not created first and Woman was not created from a small insignificant part of Adam but was probably made with equal 'Holy Stuff' (read clay or dust) Christian sects have different versions of the Bible and differing beliefs.

 

There are differences between the translated versions and the Greek versions, there are differences in the Gospels and they have been added and changed. The ascension story of Jesus ascended into the Heavens was added later and not in the Greek.

 

The Quran is said to be a perfect book and written in such a way that it can't be changed. For it to be stated as such is as if the Muslims have learnt the lesson of the Bible being mistranslated and misinterpreted and corrupted and have tried to guard against the same happening to their book. Thus the charge that the Bible has been altered and corrupted is an old one that goes way back. Also the Quran levels the charge that some people of the book are sun worshipers and idolaters, again this charge against Christianity goes way back beyond Zeitgeist even beyond Rev Taylor's Devil Pulpit written and preached in 1800's and Alexander Hislop Two Babylons again written in 1800's.

 

In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus says - Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." To me, if you lift a rock, in the space where the rock was sitting there is now open space but sunlight has filled it, same with if you split wood, sunlight will fill the space in between. So I think Jesus himself is saying he is the sun. If Jesus is the Sun and also the Son then who is the father? That which created the Sun and of course us. Then we have other texts like the Gospel of Mary not accepted a part of the christian religion. The council of Nicea deciding what to accept essentially filtering out many texts that could help our understanding. The church not releasing early works for public scrutiny.

 

There was a Christian church in Ethiopia (or somewhere) that predated the first Roman church so the Spanish on discovering this destroyed it and the writings in it as being sent from the devil. Many religious texts have been burnt or destroyed. What did they have to say?

 

What do the Freemasons know? I have been told part of it is the Gospel of Good Works. I think the gist is if they do charitable work for one another they all benefit, get rich and get into heaven for being charitable, a kind of loophole into heaven. But their system is wrapped up in mystery and according to their own website they don't know its origins. Do they even know who they worship? Pike says Lucifer, I don't know enough about it but on the regalia can often be seen two towers, this symbol links back to Mithraism and possibly Baal worship as I've read Baal was represented by two towers as well as a Bull and other symbols. Obelisks, temples and towers being associated with Sun worship and hence possibly rooted in Baal worship. If Lucifer is a Roman creation and Freemasonary may have its roots in Mithraism, practiced in Roman times, then its possible it is has links to Luciferianism. Some see Lucifer as the Morning Star and hence associate it with enlightenment and masons are all about enlightenment and receiving the light.

 

According to Rev Taylor, Jesus is symbolically the Sun. The gospels have obscure references to which he describes the motion of the sun through the various signs at different times of year. Its very compelling, in this interpretation Jesus and Satan are one and the same - both the sun, Jesus is the sun in summer riding high in his heavenly glory, and Satan is the sun in winter in the depths of the bottomless pit. It backs up the whole astrotheology theory. I wonder if this knowledge encoded into the bible is one of the 7 seals?

 

Without an understanding of languages, history, symbology, numerology, codes and occult knowledge how can anyone understand the message in the bible or other religious books. How can you be certain you are directing your worship towards the right energy/entity? This is why I think religions are corrupted, they have been altered and true meanings hidden so the uninitiated direct their worship to other entities and not God. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to"

 

With all that I've just written, I have been told, and I believe it, there is a golden thread of truth that runs through all religions which is partly why I find it so fascinating. I think most Christians are good
people I just worry they are being used as pawns by the dark side in spiritual warfare. Read thew sermon on the mount, I believe that lays out Jesus's teachings. From what I've read, an old Rabbi once said 'Treat everyone as you wish to be treated is all you need to take from religion, everything else is window dressing' Paraphrasing there but thats basically exactly what was said - he was speaking of Judaism but the same could be said for Christianity. Love thy neighbour, if we all did that as individuals and nations then wouldn't it be heaven on earth.

 

Worth mentioning the book, 'The First Coming: How the Kingdom of God Became Christianity' by Thomas Sheehan. In it the author argues that Jesus came and completed his mission and established the Kingdom of Heaven here on Earth, we all just need to realize it and act accordingly. As previously stated, if we all treated each other as we ourselves wish to be treated this world would be a much better place. Jesus freed us from the old superstitions and ridiculous rules like stoning a person for wearing two different types of fabric/ material. Or sacrificing first born cattle and all the other and barbaric superstitions from our Pagan past and introduced a simple religion with a few rules and one day off a week. What the hell happened to turn it into a religion of persecutors, torturers and murders God only knows. Well ok , we do know - Men. Thats what happened to it, it got corrupted by men.

 

So thats my rant against religions with a conspiratorial slant. Are religions based on Pagan myths, are Christians praying to the wrong energies, are all religions corrupt, does anyone here understand religion and able to discern the truth? What is it? How do you talk to Jesus? How do you know it IS Jesus? 'Whats his real name?

 

I think what we call God is the soul of the universe and all living things are a part of it and connected to it. It doesn't need worship, I guess acknowledgement is good, but for me you don't need churches or temples, I think the best thing to do is get out into nature and appreciate it, feed some wild animals, be kind to each other (love thy neighbor) If you must pray do it privately (But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Mathew 6.6)

 

If I was going to follow a religion it would be Quakerism or perhaps Buddhism, although the latter is considered more a philosophy not a religion and may well be based on Paganism again, but its heartening to think that Jesus may have been a Buddhist. I'm still learning though so I'm open to new ideas. But I think unless you know exactly what your doing getting involved in any organized religion is a spiritually risky thing. 
 

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I find religions fascinating, the books we have are some of the oldest written records. They offer an insight into early psychology and most importantly of all they are said to contain wisdom from God

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In the beginning there was the void. Science and religion both agree on this. Then, God said 'Let there be light' and there was. The Big Bang says there was an explosion - usually an explosion includes light from the fire or flash if nuclear. From the explosion all the planets and stars were created. Along with the elements and natural laws we know. Also what must have been created was life, at least the building blocks of life.

 

Fast forward a bit and borrowing from the Theory of Evolution, (I know it has flaws and is still only a theory but apart from creationism, its what we got). We were according to evolution at some point just amoeba type life forms floating on the sea. Our food source may have been sunlight like photosynthesis. We may have been aware enough to know when the sun was up and when it went down, hence we may have known of our dependence on the sun as a source of life. When it went down, all would be black (except the stars) and we would be floating in a sea of blackness waiting for the sun to come back up and nourish us.

 

According to the theory of evolution we contain or rather retain traits from previous forms. Hence the amoeba type lifeform must somewhere be in our genetic make up and form part of our wiring or nervous system. As lower life forms - we may only have seen in 2D like dogs. We would have been aware of the sun disk, the warmth it brings and the light it gives making it safe to go out and hunt.

 

Fast forwarding a bit and somehow we made it to humans, by which point we would have started observing. Some would have noticed the seasons follow each other, some would have noticed the star constellations changing We would have started to formulate a representation for them. We may have numbered them, or called them names, made them into shapes and assigned legends to them. In order to remember and pass on the knowledge we would have made up stories or rhymes for them - 30 days hath September, April June and November. Its a memory trick, the Romans used it, by assigning stories or rhymes to lists you can more easily remember them. In the case of the months rhyme, you don't even need to remember all of the rhyme, just remember the first bit and all the rest of the months have 31 days - as long as you remember the other months have 31 days you can extrapolate from the rhyme the information you require.

 

Hence our ancestors would have made stories up about the Sun, the moon, the stars and the Suns passage through the heavens. It makes sense that the Sun would be the most central figure in our stories because as I have tried to illustrate it is probably hardwired into out psyche or even DNA as being important and the source of food and life. It would also be obvious that the suns thaw's out the snow and starts life blossoming again. Religions based on nature are Pagan. After the Sun and Moon and Stars we started inventing spirits for the animals and plants etc. But from the study of nature came healing herbs, paints and dyes. Among the shamans Alchemy started.

 

Now I believe the stories made up to represent the natural world we see around us have been taken control of by dark magicians who understand not only the stories but also the workings of the mind and they have used these stories to control others. Let me explain, have you ever thought about advertising? Advertising is a form of Magic in action. You drive down the road and you see a billboard, the billboard is advertising coffee, you notice, nothing more. Now week or so later your in the supermarket shopping and you need coffee, you go to the coffee aisle and what do you buy? Well in my case quite often its the coffee I saw advertised. My rationale is this - if that company can afford to advertise it must be successful, that means people must be buying the product, that must mean its a good product, hence I'll buy it too. All very logical, but its irrelevant, what happened was someone, a complete stranger to me put up a sign, it had an impression on me and that impression modified my behavior at a later date to the outcome desired buy the person who put up the billboard. Thats magic, doing something to create and outcome favorable to the person instigating it. Yes it works, if it didn't we wouldn't have by now, same as religion, the spells work, if they didn't we would have abandoned it by now.

 

Religion does the same as advertising, it has an impression on you, even if you think it didn't - 'thou shall not kill' well ok, never planned on doing it in the first place but you say its wrong so ok, I'll go along with that. So even if you think it hasn't worked on you, its made an impression and that impression is likely to influence your behavior in the future. Even if you reject the religion at some point you'l probably say 'thou shall not kill' so at some level, you'll have made an attachment. The spells are working on you. Hence they really are 'God Spells' which is what Gospel translates to. It also translates to 'God News' which is probably from where we get the Christian 'Good News' but actually 'God Spells' more accurately describes what is going on.

 

The dark magicians understand that people want answers, and that they are quite lazy and don't want to find out for themselves, so by being able to supply the answer the magicians assume control of the enquirer. This is their power and the power of religion it relies on self formed belief, like my self formed opinion of a brand of coffee being superior to another brand based on an advert. I've rationalized it and formed my decision based on it even though I know advertising is no guarantee of quality or taste! Same with religion, people rationalize it internally but as a general, all agree or come to the same church or domination. I don't doubt that religious systems were started for the good, to try and civilize man, soften his heart and help him aspire more in life but I've no doubt they've been co-opted and used for control.

 

I think the reason the spells work so well is because they hold a fundamental truth. They must do. I think there is a Soul, there is a God, some people have been inspired to write down and pass on concepts they have 'seen' I think inherently most people 'know' there is more to life than just our 5 sense's. Even the Big Bang theory has to be accepted that something 'miraculous' and 'outside of the normal confines of physics' happened and we don't know why or how, so something big needs explaining and God is the explanation for some people (me included) I just think religions are based on Paganism, have been co-opted, then corrupted and used for mass control, power and financial reward.

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But where do all these ideas get you.  "It is said", "some say", "I heard once".  

And then?
What happens now?

You don't really know anything.  You collect tidbits like you are preparing tapas.

Then you miss the point completely.

Spirituality-Religion (I see no difference) ... is about people who wish something.  They wish to know God or truth or the origin or the meaning or eternal life or aid.

And ... they are willing to work for it.

To try, to do, to follow, to repeat ... to be taught.

 

Those who find religion fascinating are not much good.  You must find your wish desperately important.

 

Who really cares if "religion" is used for mass control ... your problem is that you are your family and everyone you know is going into the ground, and whilst you are above ground you life in a lunatic asylum.  Now, some men purported to be wise created a teaching with a different vision of what is occurring and a set of practices to leave and not live meaninglessly in a world of words. 
And the only question you have to ask yourself is ... do you feel lucky?

 

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Some specifics:

 

- Most spiritual teachings are to be taken absolutely literally, but humans like to spin things and are ungrounded.  They don't quite "get" literally.  But indeed most things are meant literally ... you cannot understand them unless you have at least a touch of Consciousness which changes the level of your intelligence.  How can one do that ... by doing the practices.  That's what they are there for.
 

- Rich man entering the gates of heaven ... true because the world of money and sense pleasures is extremely addictive and degenerative.  You cannot have two masters; choose to perish in the noise of the world, or choose something else.

 

- Jesus being a dark being ... have you even read what he said.  If you had you wouldn't say that.

 

- "Gnosticism" ... this word basically means "I do not wish to do any disciplined regular practice" !!!   People like some gnostic texts with an alternative story, and avoid others which tell the conventional story !!


- Treating others as you would treat yourself ... most people interpret this as always being liked even when you fk up.  But the Jews did not treat themselves or others kindly when the fked up.  They tried to care for their societies by doing what need to be done, including punishment, scolding, or anything else.  Just like a farmer does when he destroys weeds to save the field.

 

- Not needing to worship : no, you don't need to worship.  After all do the slugs or bats or the toads of the world worship!  They do not.
Worship and spiritual practice is something you can only do if you are above the level of intelligence of animals.

That does not make you "better" than them, but it does mean you have a different job.

As an eagle uses his wings, so you must use your gifts to fly.

An eagle preens his wings hours every day, practicing maintaining and perfecting his gifts.


- In the beginning was a void ... er ... who cares.  What we know the fundamental truth to be is you are going in the ground.

Spirituality is not a commentary on life.  It's not Alison Pearson journalist writing a column about "life" with her opinion.

Spirituality is a set of practices that take you from being Animal-Plus to be Angel.

It requires work.  Just like the Muslims pray 5 times a day, so do Catholics Buddhists and Hindus.

It does not happen on its own.

You already know what happens on its own.

 

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

But where do all these ideas get you.  "It is said", "some say", "I heard once".  

And then?
What happens now?

You don't really know anything.  You collect tidbits like you are preparing tapas.

Then you miss the point completely.

Spirituality-Religion (I see no difference) ... is about people who wish something.  They wish to know God or truth or the origin or the meaning or eternal life or aid.

And ... they are willing to work for it.

To try, to do, to follow, to repeat ... to be taught.

 

Those who find religion fascinating are not much good.  You must find your wish desperately important.

 

Yes I am collecting information and knowledge hopefully, where does it lead me, well I think spirituality is like a mosaic that tells a story, gives a picture of something. So I hope these tidbits of information will lead me to understand the bigger picture.

 



Who really cares if "religion" is used for mass control ... your problem is that you are your family and everyone you know is going into the ground, and whilst you are above ground you life in a lunatic asylum.  Now, some men purported to be wise created a teaching with a different vision of what is occurring and a set of practices to leave and not live meaninglessly in a world of words. 
And the only question you have to ask yourself is ... do you feel lucky?

 

Well I can agree with some of that, to an extent who cares if religion has been used for control, if it saves people, gives a path to true salvation then to an extent it doesn't matter if it is also used for control be dark forces, that would just be the battle between good and evil fighting it out on the front line. Hopefully humans with good hearts would be able to discern the good from the bad and make the right choices. But I don't think organized religions guide us to profound understanding or a relationship with the true God, they seem to corrupt the very teachings they espouse and it appears that corruption takes a pagan form. Again, I don't necessarily object to there being pagan teachings in religion if they are explained as such but when they are misinterpreted as religious fact and doctrines built around them it becomes corrupt and that has the power to corrupt others.

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Yes .... but everything is corrupt. 

So the best you can do is follow the river to the Source, learn the practices and be the only one in the room doing them and therefore "have heard the teacher".

That everything is corrupt is not an excuse ... if you need a lifeboat take it from whoever has it.

A spiritual person is a force of de-corrupting things, or reconstructing the truth in himself.

 

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

Some specifics:

 

I liked your post, don't agree with it all but it was a good post and thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote!.

 

Regarding Jesus being a dark being, well that was partly due to Rev Taylors explanation that Jesus and Satan are an allegorical representation of the Sun. Jesus being the Sun in summer, riding high in all his heavenly glory, while when the Sun is in winter he is down in the bottomless pit and is Satan. Again, I don't mind if pagan astrotheological stories are entwined with spiritual truths, it would make it more interesting to me. But just because I accept, shall I say, the explanation of Rev Taylor in Devils Pulpit as having some truth doesn't mean I don't believe Satan actually exists. The two concepts are entirely different, Christians are using the symbology of Jesus and Satan to describe the Sun's path, that doesn't mean Jesus and Satan don't exist. Jesus not being his real name does not mean a man we call Jesus did not walk the earth and speak the spiritual truths attributed to Jesus. I believe there was a man, but again, even his name has been changed to reflect a pagan deity and that name and title is used to represent a real man. 

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Martin Luther King - 

 

Quote

"The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity"

Author: King, Martin Luther, Jr. (Crozer Theological Seminary)
Date: November 29, 1949 to February 15, 1950
 
The Greco-Roman world in which the early church developed was one of diverse religions. The conditions of that era made it possible for these religions to sweep like a tidal wave over the ancient world. The people of that age were eager and zealous in their search for religious experience. The existence of this atmosphere was vitally important in the development and eventual triumph of Christianity.

These many religions, known as Mystery-Religions, were not alike in every respect: to draw this conclusion would lead to a gratuitous and erroneous supposition. They covered an enormous range, and manifested a great diversity in character and outlook, “from Orphism to Gnosticism, from the orgies of the Cabira to the fervours of the Hermetic contemplative.”\[Footnote:] Angus, The Mystery Religions and Christianity, p. vii.\2 However it is to be noticed that these Mysteries possessed many fundamental likenesses; (1) All held that the initiate shared in symbolic (sacramental) fashion the experiences of the god. (2) All had secret rites for the initiated. (3) All offered mystical cleansing from sin. (4) All promised a happy future life for the faithful.\[Footnote:] Enslin, Christian Beginnings, pp. 187, 188.\

It is not at all surprising in view of the wide and growing influence of these religions that when the disciples in Antioch and elsewhere preached a crucified and risen Jesus they should be regarded as the heralds of another mystery religion, and that Jesus himself should be taken for the divine Lord of the cult through whose death and resurrection salvation was to be had.3 That there were striking similarities between the developing church and these religions cannot be denied. Even Christian apologist had to admit that fact.

Christianity triumphed over these mystery religions after long conflict. This triumph may be attributed in part to the fact that Christianity took from its opponents their own weapons, and used them: the better elements of the mystery religions were transferred to the new religion. “As the religious history of the empire is studied more closely,” writes Cumont, “the triumph of the church will, in our opinion, appear more and more as the culmination of a long evolution of beliefs. We can understand the Christianity of the fifth century with its greatness and weakness, its spiritual exaltation and its puerile superstitions, if we know the moral antecedents of the world in which it developed.”

Link - https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/king-papers/documents/influence-mystery-religions-christianity

 

 

 

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There are various levels in reality, and they all need maintenance, we are aiming to become a tower of being:

 

Consciousness : Jesus represents this "the mind of God", the halo

Sub-consciousness 2 : Order at the animal level, marriage, health, discipline, social structures

Sub-consciousness 1 : Nature, the order demonstrated by the natural world

Unconsciousness : The deep field of existence that has some aliveness at a low level

 

A properly spiritual person has all these elements in good order inside him.  It is like levels of "intelligence".  We maintain the body, we maintain health, we are in contact with the spirit of the natural world, and we feel the light of God through Christian practices ... this part needs special work as it is not native on Earth.

So regarding Paganism and the Sun, this might refer to Sub-consciousness 1, the spirit of Nature.

I put 2 levels of Sub-consciousness there may be more ... they are worlds that are not Conscious, they are below that, but they are worlds that need respect and are important as a foundation, they are like building the wood of a bonfire.  Consciousness is the fire.

 

In good spiritual traditions, there is work with the body, with the psyche, with the practical intelligence, with food and with the community and nature ... as well as with Consciousness.  These things form part of the routine of the day in ashrams, churches, Jewish communities and so on.  You become a well rounded human being.

For most spiritual people they focus too much on the fancy sounding mind of God or the top section of Consciousness ... but it is better to do just as much work on the middle and lower sections ... you should not just "let yourself go".  You must maintain all of it.

In yoga, the first practices taught are of the body, the health, digestion, cleansing the entire body inside and out, just like you wash down a kitchen.

 

Jesus said that he came to fulfill the Law ... meaning he came to put the crown on the Torah.

Because the crown must sit upon something.  Like the fire is nothing without the wood being prepared carefully.

Both are required.

Perhaps in the Roman society Christianity encountered a suitable prepared wood structure, when it was not accepted by the Jews.

And so it became Roman-Christianity, meaning the Roman society provided the Sub-conscious2 structure upon with Jesus' light shone.

And always in the hinterland there are ... fringe people who maintain the Wicca/Naturalist/Pagan/Shamanic practices ... which are Sub-conscious1, this is very important although it must always be on the fringes and not in the centre of a society.

 

 

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3 hours ago, rideforever said:

There are various levels in reality, and they all need maintenance, we are aiming to become a tower of being:

 

Consciousness : Jesus represents this "the mind of God", the halo

Sub-consciousness 2 : Order at the animal level, marriage, health, discipline, social structures

Sub-consciousness 1 : Nature, the order demonstrated by the natural world

Unconsciousness : The deep field of existence that has some aliveness at a low level

 

I've seen you mention the 'Energetic Model' does the above tie i with that and can you expand on what the energetic model is. I suspect it deserves its own thread and probably other members would contribute, but if you want to outline it here that would be useful as I suspect its another layer of knowledge to the whole which is the truth in the Bible. As I mentioned in my OP Jesus may well have studied Buddhist practices and there is a Youtube guy - Donnahue that 'preaches' Jesus's teachings were about cultivating personal energy.

 

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A properly spiritual person has all these elements in good order inside him.  It is like levels of "intelligence".  We maintain the body, we maintain health, we are in contact with the spirit of the natural world, and we feel the light of God through Christian practices ... this part needs special work as it is not native on Earth.

 

 

First you clean your temple, then you build your house, the houses men build make communities and then communities build churches.

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Some aspects :

Origins of Human Awakeness

It is likely that we are more developed than animals due to hunting.  It is in hunting that intelligence-consciousness is most important, it is where there is most pressure.  And this is why in front of the eyes ... in this region is our highest developed awakeness.  This is where people like to live, in their minds and interacting with the world.  It is the most awake part of us, and it is in advance of other areas. 

This developed seems to have created an imbalance, the mind is prioritized over other parts of our lives eventually leading to manipulation and corruption.

 

Collective Individual

Existence makes species, groups that influence each other.  As you become more 'conscious' so you leave the collective.  At first you are drunk with the freedom and misbehave breaking rules, but in the end you return to the collective but live it at a higher level.  You can appreciate the reason for the existence of the collective ... which is to protect the birthing chamber and maintain the foundations.

 

Entering a dark room

I had this insight yesterday.   It is said that humans create their world, is it true?
If you imagine waking up in a pitch black room one day.  What would do?  Probably lie there for a few days.  But eventually you move around and gather a sense of what the room is about.  You feel the walls floor temperature sounds.  And you gather a theory of where you are.  This is Theory1.

After a few more days you start exploring further and discover that you are not in a room but a cave.  Some areas are a little higher, others lower.  There is a stream in one area.   That is Theory2.  You have changed your world theory on the basis of your exploration and you act according to your current world theory.

Gradually as time goes on you explore more and create a more and more refined theory of the world.  Theory3,4,5 ...

This is based on exploration of reality.

Eventually you have a very large world theory in which you live, which was discovered by exploration.   And you live according to this world theory.  So yes you create your world .... however that world theory is formed from exploration of reality.  It is not made up.
Anyone who lives in a total fiction world theory will die soon.

The world theory is an inner theory of what is 'out there'.  It is not everything that is 'out there' because there is more to be discovered.

But it is also not a fiction.

The human understanding of the world is like this.

 

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Sumerian Script => Origins of the Christian Cross

If you look at this image you can see the image for God is like the sun but over time the script evolved, presumably so it was less like pictures and easier and quicker to write, less pictures more lines.

And the symbol for God changed to something approaching the Cross.

 

Sumer.jpg

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Real Religion vs New Age Vibration Nonsense

Just watching the "Joseph Communication" a new age channel with Christian wallpaper ... talking about raising your vibration.:
 

A human being is a creature with many abilities.  It is not just "a vibration" who must put out good vibrations.  This is a very low order of teaching with represents a failure to understand basic things.

This is why Jesus ... who these people imagine they imitate ... he told people practical skills.  How to plant seeds, how to invest, how to carry a sword.  This is Jesus's teaching. 
In the evening, sit in prayer and he told them how to pray, the Lord's prayer was taught directly by Jesus, it begins : "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name".  This is not some vague vibration.   This is direct communication with God himself.  This is not a joke.

 

Jesus's teaching has two parts : the parables teach the subconscious which is our animal part, to live ordinarily and carry out the business of the day practically speaking.  To do this would make you very different from the empty people of modern society who have employed every labour saving device in order to spare them getting their hands dirty so they can check Twitter.  And that is the first part.

The second part is to know God himself through long prayer and devotional practice.

 

These two aspects of Jesus's teaching are concrete.  They are solid real and grounded practices needing direct knowledge of the carnal world and of the higher world.

 

Contrast that with the new age that requires you to do nothing, just vibrate.  What this means is that you refuse to use your life to contribute.  Neither do you contribute by learning skills of the Earth, nor by direct knowledge and surrender to God. 

That kind of comfortable talk is actually just entertainment.

 

The way out of "this mess" is for people to undertake a life as Jesus explains it, a grounded real and active life getting your hands dirty, a life of concrete reality.   If not human beings degenerate into a dreamlike meaningless state which is only possible because they are born in a castle left to them by better people.

 

It may be hard work to build a nest every year, but the birds do not complain that they have no leisure time.

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16 hours ago, rideforever said:

Real Religion vs New Age Vibration Nonsense

Just watching the "Joseph Communication" a new age channel with Christian wallpaper ... talking about raising your vibration.:
 

A human being is a creature with many abilities.  It is not just "a vibration" who must put out good vibrations.  This is a very low order of teaching with represents a failure to understand basic things.

 

Ah I see, I thought your reference to 'Energetic Model' was something similar to raising vibration or raising the Kundalini energy through the spine into Christ Consciousness.

 

I haven't been ignoring you, just letting your words sink in. Afraid I've got nothing to offer back on these points at the moment, I googled around a bit and found this -

 

Quote

What is Awakening? An Energetic Christian Perspective

 

“The Kingdom of Heaven is really a metaphor for a state of consciousness; it is not a place you go to, but a place you come from. It is a whole new way of looking at the world, a transformed awareness that literally turns this world into a different place.”

 

-Cynthia Bourgeault, The Wisdom Jesus, p. 30

 Link - https://martinschmidtinasia.wordpress.com/2019/10/22/what-is-awakening-an-energetic-christian-perspective/

 

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More on the Astrotheology theme

 

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RESTORING THE "KEYS" TO PROPER BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION OF "THE CHRIST"

The fact is that Christianity was just another mystery religion like all the others at the time. Mystery is a key word in Christianity it appears in the New Testament 22 times.

 

Paul, a Gnostic, informs us:

1 Tim 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (KJV)

1 Tim 3:9 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. (KJV)

snip

Mystery religions were very prevalent at the time of early Christianity. Ignatius of Antioch, bishop of Antioch, Syria, states in his letter to the Ephesians, “…you are …fellow initiates with [the apostle] Paul.” (Ignatius to the Ephesians, XII.2).

Answer for yourself: What is important about this statement?

Only mystery religions had initiates and if Paul was an apostle of Christianity in the beginning that means that Christianity is a Mystery Religion as were all world religions before it; that is before the emergence of the Holy Roman Empire in the 3rd century.

snip

One can go so far and say that the Bible, a book I love and have finally come to interpret correctly now possessing the "keys" for a correct hermeneutic, is a repository of the great Mystery teaching of early times going as far back as the beginning of mankind. In fact, properly studied and recognized the Bible is a synthesis and collection of religious works down through history comprising the substance of Hermeticism, Gnosticism, Kabalism, Egyptian and Chaldean astrology and astronomy, Greek Orphism and Hindu Wisdom, drawn mostly from ancient Egypt.

Link - http://astrotheology.weebly.com/restoringkeys1.html

Website - http://astrotheology.weebly.com/#

 

 

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I don't think these ideas are correct.  Christianity as taught by Jesus is not a Mystery it is the end of mystery.

Cynthia B is one of a group of new age people who are trying to get something from Christianity by letting you know some new factoid about it, or uncovering the hidden truth ... bla bla.  That's how parasites work, by trying to suck the blood out of a host.

 

Jesus's teaching was a very big thing; firstly he was a man who had great power and in the right way, not cheap esoteric tricks, but he was one with God and yes he raised the death and cured the sick instantly.  Nobody else I think could ever do that.  Only some ugly sorcerers could disguise things with charms and mirages.  But no Jesus was a powerful holy man.

These days people say we are infinite love or consciousness ... and it's all a fraud, ti's all an escape that devalues human life.  Most people like that loathe human life, they see nothing good in it.

But Jesus was so advanced he knew how to live as a mircocosm ... that's why he said "can you not see that from the beginning the Father made them man and woman".  This means that he recognized that at all levels of existence the ultimate power comes from the union of Man and Woman, it is the reflection of the Origin at all levels ... as above so below.

The infinite love consciousness people are part of the cultural marxism that sees no value in man and woman and sees no problem with sodomy ... and eventually this degenerates into Cannibalism and abuse of children. 

Jesus teaches you to enter human life properly in order to go beyond it.  That is why we are born in the human world.  If you do not enter you cannot learn, and if you do no learn you perish.

 

But cheap answers are good for many people, who like sensation but do not understand even enough to know that they are meant to work.  Because if you do not contribute then you are just a taker.

 

There are no "keys" to Christianity.  And no secrets.  Apart from the simple fact that if you go to a Catholic Church on Sunday you perform various practices which are physical (kneeling) energetic (sign of the cross) psychological (confession) conscious (transmission of the Christ) subconscious (taking communion) individual (silent prayer) communal (congregation) esoteric (lighting the candels) ... and so this is a 360 degree training, and if you continue doing it so you will change.

If you wish to get the "keys" ... just do it more.  Some Catholics attend mass every day and pray pretty much all day.   Then they are on the express train.  And these practices are very beautiful and full of adoration, they are not mechanical.

Ultimately it works ... you can criticize anything, but in 100 years time the stupid Catholics will still live and the atheists will not.  It's that simple. Maybe it seems strange but it's true.

Most people just don't care if they are going to die ... just watch all the activity in the world - nobody cares at all.

Anyway I do not do the Catholic practices because I was trained in Eastern practices which I am designed myself to be more or less equivalent.

 

I have probably said all this several times already on this forum.  I am sure it makes no difference to anyone, but ... there you go.

 

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2 hours ago, pi3141 said:

Ah I see, I thought your reference to 'Energetic Model' was something similar to raising vibration or raising the Kundalini energy through the spine into Christ Consciousness.

 

There is no mechanical means to become awakened spiritually, because being awakened means that your intelligence is able to sense and recognize something subtle ... which is the higher conscious world.  At first you just "feel something", like you feel the divine presence, but by remaining within it over many months and years you start to comprehend it and live from it.  So your intelligence must gradually learn to understand something subtle ... at first very faint but by the end it is deafening to the point where you don't see the carnal world so much, the carnal world which is so noisy with cars and hiphop starts to seem like a thin noisy film over a fast an endless living ocean.

Sitting with a teacher or teaching or in devotion or in a holy building, day after day slowly something trickles into you.

I don't think you can get much from ramming energy up the spine because there is no intention to taste anything subtle .. you can't for instance learn to appreciate classical music by plugging yourself into the mains.

Consciousness is a "higher vibration" but it is also a "higher intelligence" and "higher understanding" and appreciating truth at all levels.

I see that many people who talk about higher vibrations don't really feel it.  It becomes a game or bragging.

Whereas sitting privately contemplating the origin of existence is a quiet private journey into the unknown.

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19 hours ago, rideforever said:

I don't think these ideas are correct.  Christianity as taught by Jesus is not a Mystery it is the end of mystery.

 

Thats fine, if you can disprove anything of the information on the thread then go ahead. You can see from the OP and the 'evidence' I am posting that I am attempting to show the Pagan roots of religion. I intend to post some contradictory evidence myself, there was a book, scholarly level work that repudiates 'The Two Babylons' book and its theories - by an author who originally accepted the Two Babylons as valid, then changed his mind on finding new evidence. As soon as I find it and read it I will post some information here.

 

Quote

I have probably said all this several times already on this forum.  I am sure it makes no difference to anyone, but ... there you go.

 

 

Well I read it, I take it on board and file it away for future corroboration etc. Besides, its good to have the opposing views, it makes for discussion and debate and at least the other side of the argument gets put forward and the forum doesn't go unbalanced and off the rails in a self affirming way because there's nobody to put the brakes on and say whoa, lets look at the other side. So I think contrary arguments are a good thing and make for an interesting thread.

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The Devils Pulpit by Rev Taylor

 

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This series of sermons was meant to challenge the rigid and uncompromising views that were held by Christianity in England at the time. Reverend Taylor was originally a doctor who took up the holy orders in the Church of England. His intense curiosity and desire to find the truth found him studying the roots of Christianity and its interesting connections to astrology and the signs of the zodiac. He came to the conclusion that Christianity is based on much older religions and its rituals are directly descended from ancient Egyptian and pagan practices.

Although Taylor's holy orders were revoked and he was banned from preaching in the U.K., he continued his work in Ireland. He later returned to England and became even more controversial than ever. Arrested for blasphemy, he kept writing in jail. Upon his release he toured the universities of England with a colleague, debating and beating virtually everyone with material covered in this book. Subjects covered include the origins of Christianity, the real purpose of Jesus and the apostles, and the importance of the zodiac and its symbolism in relation to Christianity. Rev. Taylor was a trailblazer for all those who dare to question current beliefs.

 

Quote

The Devils Pulpit by Rev Taylor
Link - https://archive.org/details/devilspulpit00tayl


From the Devils Pulpit

 

Quote

THE Devil's Pulpit. P248
The mysteries of Free Masonry are identically the same as those of the Dyonisia, or Mysteries of Bacchus ; and, consequently, an uncovering and exposure of these mysteries, will be an exposure of all the secret of mystery that is, or ever was, in the masonic craft. And that masonry, correctly understood, is the combined result of the ancient Egyptian, and Jewish, and Christian religions, you will learn, from demonstrations to be adduced, in the due order and succession of these lectures. 

From the present, 'tis matter worthy of your attention to carry home the correction of the general error, which supposes, that -

THE Devil's Pulpit. 249 
there ever was a Hebrew nation, or a temporal Kingdom of Jews, Israelites, or Christians. These, being, not political, or national, but entirely mystical and masonic terms,--«names of the different degrees of gradation in the masonic craft, that temple of Solomon, 'In which ye also, as spiritual stones, are builded together, for an habitation of God through the Spirit.''^ 

In which series, the Christian is the lowest, the Israelite next the Jew next, the Hebrew next, and so on, up through the gradations of those who, having passed " the middle wall of partition,' and been admitted within the Veil, are called Hebrews of the Hebrews, to martyrs or witnesses, autops or seers, prophets or tellers, saints, apostles, — ^^ Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.'* 

 snip

The Devils Pulpit, 257
The Christian Teragrammaton Inri, consisting of the four letters, I. N. R. I? 

A little bit of Latin, I suppose, like the labels on the doctor's gallipot, that stands as well for Jesus Nazarenus Rex JudcEorum — that is, " Jesus the Free Mason, the king of the fellow-crafts' men," as it would stand in English for. Jack Nobody, Rascally Jack. 

Ask your preachers of the gospel to tell you the meaning of it : they cannot tell you, they would stumble at the word, and would be ready to knock you down for asking them. It might be right for Christians not to seek to be wise above what is written : but their folly has been so monstrous, that they have never sought to be so wise as to know the meaning of what is written : and there stand the four letters, I. N.R. I. upon the church, of which Christians 

THE DEVIL S PULPIT.  258
know no more the meaning, than they do the meaning of the cawing of a crow upon the steeple. Those letters are the initials of the four pass-words to the higher grades of masonry, lami, Noiir, Rouach, lebeschal, which signify the four elements, Water, Fire, Air, and Earth, over which the four archangels were imagined to preside, whose names are pass-words in masonry, Asdurel, Casmaran, Tarliud, and Furlac, the meaning of the mystery being, that the Being who is represented as hanging below the word I. N. R. I., is the personified genius of the universal nature. *' For in him," says the apostle, "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily :" and all the elements. Fire, Air, Earth, and Water, which make up and constitute the Pleroma, or fulness of the Godhead, are equally effected by the position of the God of Nature — that is, of the Sun, when upon the Cross of the Equator. 

snip

THE DEVIL S PULPIT. 261 
The Jews, an order of Free Masons, above that of Christians, but below that of Hebrews, profess that the name of the Supreme Deity is unutterable, and invariably substitute in the stead of the word which we absurdly and erroneously pronounce Jehovah Adonai, which is. literally, My Lords — with the pronoun suffix to the plural of the word Adonis, the well-known name of the beautiful son of Marrha in the Pagan mythology, and never meaning any thing else than the Sun itself — that is ad the Lord ; on, the Being ; IS, the Fire, which is the Sun, in allegorical language, the Father, the Husband, the Son, the Lover of the Lamb's Wife — that is, the everlasting Mrs. Lamb, the August Virgin Mary of the Zodiac. While the Free Masons of a higher degree make a precisely similar pretence, and have a mystical or talismanic name of God, which is never communicated but to the very highest of the craft, which they are not allowed to
utter, — but I will ; and of which they them-selves don't know the meaning, and I do ! 

As you find the Hebrew, or third degree mason, Paul, in 2 Corinth, xii. 4, describing himself as having been caught up into the third heaven, where he heard " unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." Not lawful for a man to utter! I shall be damned if I utter it. But, since it comes to, that I'll be damned if I don't : I have it : the great secret is here ! — I am bursting to let it out. Where is the Devil? — keep him off from me a moment. The unutterable word is — is — Jao-Bull-on ! Lord, Lord, Lord !

Jao-Bull-on. What alive and the secret is out : the common secret of Free Masonry, of Christianity, of Judaism, and of Paganism. 

But what is its meaning ? 

Iaw, the name of the Supreme Being-, as uttered from the Sacred Tripod of the Delphic Oracle. ^pa^eo) oe tcjv navrcjv vnarov eiifiev law (written in Greek, didn't copy over) I pronounce Iaw to be the name of the Supreme Being. I, the symbol of unity in number. Alpha and Omega, a and o, the first and the last, the beginning and the end, which was, and which is to come, " the
Almighty."  Rull Bui Bole. Disguise it as you will, utter it in any tongue of all the peopled earth, its essence and significancy is none other than Baal, the name of the Supreme God, when the Covenant— that is, the Vernal Equinox was in the Bull of the Zodiac, from whence the sacred animal, in our own language, to this day; and ON, the never varied Egyptian name of the Sun, thus proving the Sun to be, as indeed it has been, the great and ONLY object of all religious worship and the science of the Sun, or of Astronomy, the interior and esoteric secret of Free Masonry.

THE DEVIL S PULPIT P293
Whit Sunday is also called the day of Pentecost, because the word Trevrrjxoarogj is the Greek for Quinquagesimus — that is the fiftieth,  and this day is the fiftieth from Easter — that is, from the day of the Jewish Pass-over, and the Christian Cross-over, and the astronomical Go-over — that is, from the day when the Sun in the Ecliptic passes over, crosses over, or goes over the line of the Equator, at the time of the Yernal Equinox. 

 

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Sure, well all indigenous tribes have some form of "worship" which simply means they sense something higher than the mortal material animal life ... but Paganism is not one thing, it is many things often with no authority or real codification, so it's not so easy to talk about.  I suppose you can say as the creatures on the planet woke up and became closer to consciousness they started to feel things, slowly at first and with few details or clarity ... and Paganism is in there somewhere, but over time clearer ideas emerged.

 

Robert Taylor ... he speaks like many commentators without any inner understanding ... Christianity like all traditions cannot be understood without practice, neither can you understand bricklaying from a book or by comparing books or analysing books or words and so on.  You have to do it, mean perform the practices of the church.

Many human beings like to think a lot and analyse ... they exercise their minds which they find enjoyable.  But these are not real analyses.  Real analysis can be performed after entering Christianity and other traditions, performing the practices, and seeing the different results ... that is the only way.  Otherwise it is words without knowledge.

Truth reality consciousness christ ... it's all quite simple and truth is simple, it's not spinning words into webs and conspiracies.  Jesus had that problem all the time ... because people are coarse they understand coarse things.  Noisy loud dramatic struggle fear and conspiracy.  Which is the gap between those who are in the right place and those wrong.  Jesus was go up the mountain on his own in the evening and sit with God for many hours, in those hours the silent presence entered him and he surrendered to it.  But returning down the mountain he spoke to many who had not done that.

 

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33 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Sure, well all indigenous tribes have some form of "worship" which simply means they sense something higher than the mortal material animal life ... but Paganism is not one thing, it is many things often with no authority or real codification, so it's not so easy to talk about.  I suppose you can say as the creatures on the planet woke up and became closer to consciousness they started to feel things, slowly at first and with few details or clarity ... and Paganism is in there somewhere, but over time clearer ideas emerged.

 

Yes I would like to think that. And also that the Paganism that is in there is just a vehicle of symbology to portray higher ideas and concepts or a framework to hang them on.

 

I find the Pagan Sun 'science' (observation) and encoding into stories for verbal transmission just a fascinating aspect of Christianity but I appreciate it is not the only explanation, there's far more in the Bible than just Jesus is the Sun and I'm interested to learn about that to. But it appears from Rev Taylors work and others that in the Bible, some verses and in Christianity some festivals do correlate to the Sun's motions, so its undoubtedly in there. But there is much more encoded in the Bible I'm sure, Astronomy is just one theme if you like that makes up part of the framework that holds together all the other themes or knowledge encoded in there. Its only by scrutinizing it and separating the wheat from the chaff can we get to the whole truth.

 

Did you look at that other article I posted, it said in there - 

 

Quote

Looking back to Augustine, the medieval Catholic Church believed that every biblical passage contained four levels of meaning. These four levels were:

The literal,
The allegorical,
The moral, and
The eschatological.

 

 

So clearly there are different interpretations encoded in the Bible, as I tried to say in my OP it is a multi-layered, multi-coded book. I think this Astrotheology stuff is just another layer of knowledge encoded in the work.

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1 hour ago, rideforever said:

@pi3141    Perhaps you have a particular phrase in mind that could be discussed in different meanings?

 

Any you can think of - I gave the example of 'A rich man getting into heaven is as easy as putting a camel through the eye of the needle'  in my OP, pick one of the most profound and give the meaning, the more I know in that regards the better to be honest. However I imagine there are many examples perhaps to many to mention all so if you can give a few, perhaps ones that illustrate different knowledge, like the energetic model, spiritual truth or practical instruction then give them. I know in Islam its mentioned not to eat Pork, turns out in hot countries Pigs develop a parasitical worm and hence if you eat Pork you eat the parasite hence its unclean to eat. I don't think they knew about the parasite when the Koran was written so it was a very fortuitous piece of advice! 

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The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop

 

From Wiki, the only decent summary I could find

 

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Hislop builds on the Panbabylonian school of Hyperdiffusionism, which was common in the 19th century, to argue that Classical and Ancient Near Eastern civilization took its inspiration from Babylon. From this he derives the argument that the mystery religions of Late Antiquity were actually offshoots of one ancient religion founded at the Tower of Babel. Panbabylonism has since been relegated to pseudohistory by 20th-century scholars.[9]

Much of Hislop's work centers on his association of the legendary Ninus and his semi-historical wife Semiramis with the Biblical Nimrod as her husband and her son, with their incestuous male offspring being Tammuz. Hellenistic histories of the Ancient Near East tended to conflate their faint recollections of the deeds of ancient kings into legendary figures who exerted far more power than any ancient king ever did. In Assyria, they invented an eponymous founder of Nineveh named Ninus, who supposedly ruled 52 years over an empire comparable to the Persian Empire at its greatest extent. Ninus's wife Semiramis was in turn a corruption of the historical figure Shammuramat, regent of the Neo-Assyrian Empire from 811 BC.[10] Hislop takes Ninus as a historical figure and associates him with the Biblical figure Nimrod, though he was not the first to do so. The Clementine literature made the association in the 4th Century AD. An influential belief throughout the Middle Ages was that Ninus was the inventor of idolatry,[11] a concept that Hislop clearly drew upon. However, Hislop wrote before the historical records of the ancient near east had been thoroughly decoded and studied, that cast doubt in the decades after he wrote whether there was any such figure as Ninus, and the Greek authors whom he quoted lacked credibility on the subject.[12]

Relief of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar, whose name Hislop claimed to be the root behind the English word Easter

The Two Babylons heavily relies on Austen Henry Layard's publications of his excavations at Nineveh, which had only been just discovered in 1851. This gave his work an appearance of being well-researched at the time of its publication. For example, Hislop linked the name of Easter with Astarte, the Phoenician fertility goddess by citing Layard's recent discovery of Astarte's Assyrian name, Ishtar, which Hislop took to be "identical" to Easter.

What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, as pronounced by the people Nineveh, was evidently identical with that now in common use in this country. That name, as found by Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar.

— Hislop, The Two Babylons, Chapter 3, Section 2, Easter

The claim that Easter is derived from Ishtar has been disputed.[13] Modern etymologists derive the word Easter from the Proto-Indo-European root *aus-, meaning "dawn",[14] potentially by way of *h₂ewsṓs.[15] Ishtar is a Semitic name of uncertain etymology, possibly taken from the same root as Assyria, or from a semitic word meaning "to irrigate".[16]

Hislop ultimately claimed to trace Catholic doctrines back to the worship of Nimrod, asserting that the Catholic Church represented Whore of Babylon of the Book of Revelation and that "the Pope himself is truly and properly the lineal representative of Belshazzar." He claimed that the Christogram IHS, the first three Greek letters in the name of Jesus, represented Latin characters standing for Isis, Horus and Seb.

Link - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons

 

 

The book -

 

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Originally published as a pamphlet in 1853, and expanded to book length in 1858, The Two Babylons seeks to demonstrate a connection between the ancient Babylonian mystery religions and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. Often controversial, yet always engaging, The Two Babylons comes from an era when disciplines such as archaeology and anthropology were in their infancy, and represents an early attempt to synthesize many of the findings of these areas and Biblical truth.

Link - https://archive.org/details/theTwoBabylons

 

 

A review -

 

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This book has nothing to do with "archaeology" etc as far as it's thesis proved. Hislop methodically uses the ancient Chaldean LANGUAGE and an abundance of Greek/Roman/Egyptian and other authors to prove the obvious: Catholicism is just disguised Chaldean/Egyptian/Greek mystery religions by those that were in a dying Roman Empire trying to hold onto power in any way possible so they created the facade at the Nicene Council in 327 AD called Catholicism. The amount of startling work with the Chaldean original language as related to so many words in other important languages makes this book worth buying physically by itself. If you want a very fascinating and revealing analysis of both Bible history and Chaldean/Egyptian Mystery history this is a must have! Fascinating and exquisitely executed.

 

 

From the book - 

 

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The Sign Of The Cross - p177

There is yet one more symbol of the Romish worship to be noticed, and that is the sign of the cross. In the Papal system as is well known, the sign of the cross and the image of the cross are all in all. No prayer can be said, no worship engaged in, no step almost can be taken, without the frequent use of the sign of the cross. The cross is looked upon as the grand charm, as the great refuge in every season of danger, in every hour of temptation as the infallible preservative from all the powers of darkness. The cross is adored with all the homage due only to the Most High; and for any one to call it, in the hearing of a genuine Romanist, by the Scriptural term, "the accursed tree," is a mortal offence. To say that such superstitious feeling for the sign of the cross, such worship as Rome pays to a wooden or a metal cross, ever grew out of the saying of Paul, "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ"--that is, in the doctrine of Christ crucified--is a mere absurdity, a shallow subterfuge and pretence. The magic virtues attributed to the so-called sign of the cross, the worship bestowed on it, never came from such a source. The same sign of the cross that Rome now worships was used in the Babylonian Mysteries, was applied by Paganism to the same magic purposes, was honoured with the same honours. That which is now called the Christian cross was originally no Christian emblem at all, but was the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans and Egyptians --the true original form of the letter T— the initial of the name of Tammuz-- which, in Hebrew, radically the same as ancient Chaldee, as found on coins, was formed as in No. 1 of the accompanying woodcut (Fig. 43 ); and in Etrurian and Coptic, as in Nos. 2 and 3. That mystic Tau was marked in baptism on the foreheads of those initiated in the Mysteries, * and was used in every variety of way as a most sacred symbol.

 

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Babylon Mystery Religion by Ralph Woodrow

 

Ralph Woodrow wrote this book and from what I understand drew heavily on 'The Two Babylons of Alexander Hislop in the preceding post. However he changed his mind at a later date and wrote a book refuting his earlier work and hence Hislops work to. However I feel the weight of evidence against Christianity is so great that there may be a few errors here and there but the meat and bones of it is there. There is so much striking resemblance and so many authors have come forward with these theories, even the Muslims accuse Christianity and Judaism of idolatry and have done since what the 15th - 16th century. This is not a new age belief, it goes way back, just like these religions and their Pagan origins.

 

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Babylon Mystery Religion is a detailed Biblical and historical account of how, when, why, and where ancient paganism was mixed with Christianity. From the early days of Babylon and the legends surrounding Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz, certain rites and rituals are traced in their various developments, thus providing clues whereby the "mystery" is so9lved! The apostles had predicted there would come a "falling away" and the proof of their prediction is now evident in history. With such evidence in hand, all true believers should seek, as never before, the simplicity found in Christ himself and to earnestly contend for that original faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

The book -

 

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Babylon Mystery Religion - Ralph Woodrow

Link - https://archive.org/details/Babylon-Mystery-Religion-Ralph-Woodrow

 

From the book - 

 

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Babylon Mystery Religion. p46

THE CROSS IS recognized as one of the most important symbols of the Roman Catholic Church. It is displayed on top of roofs and towers. It is seen on altars, furnishings, and ecclesiastical garments. The floor plan of the majority of Catholic churches is laid out in the shape of the cross. AD Catholic homes, hospitals, and schools have the cross adorning the walls. Everywhere the cross is outwardly honored and adored— in hundreds of ways! 

When an infant is sprinkled, the priest makes the sign of the cross upon its forehead saying: “Receive the sign of the cross upon thy forehead/* During confirmation, the candidate is signed with the cross. On Ash Wednesday, ashes are used to make a cross on the forehead. When Catholics enter 

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the church building, they dip the forefinger of the right hand in -‘holy water”, touch the forehead, the chest, the left and the right shoulder^-thus tracing the figure of the cross. The same sign is made before eating meals. During Mass, the priest makes the sign of the cross 16 times and blesses the altar with the cross sign 30 times. Protestant churches, for the most part, do not believe in making the sign of the cross with their fingers. Neither do they bow down before crosses or use them as objects of worship. They have recognized that these things are unscriptural and superstitious. But the use of the cross has been commonly retained on steeples, on pulpits, and in various other ways as a form of decoration. 

The early Christians did not consider the cross as a virtuous symbol, but rather as “the accursed tree”, a device of death and “shame” (Heb, 12:2)* They did not trust in an old rugged cross. Instead, their faith was in w/iar wai accomplished on the cross; and through this faith, they knew the full and complete forgiveness of sin! It was in this sense that the apostles preached about the cross and gloried in it (1 Cor. 1:17, 18), They never spoke of the cross as a piece of wood one might hang from a little chain around his neck or carry in his hand as a protector or charm. Such uses of the cross came later. 

It was not until Christianity began to be paganized (or, as some prefer, paganism was Christianized), that the cross image came to be thought of as a Christian symbol It was in 431 that crosses in churches and chambers were introduced, while the use of crosses on steeples did not come until about 586. 1 In the sixth century, the crucifix image was sanctioned by the church of Rome,* It was not until the second Council at Ephesus that private homes were required to possess a cross, 3 If the cross is a Christian symbol, it cannot be correctly said that its origin was within Christianity, for in one form or another it was a sacred symbol long before the Christian Era and among many non-Christian people. According to An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, the cross originated among the Babylonians of ancient Chaldea. “The ecclesiastical form of a two beamed cross. ..had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tam muz (being in the shape of the Mystic Tau, the initial 

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of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt...In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system, pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adapted to stand for the cross of Christ”! 4 

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