Dating website question for men

[Occulus5]

On 12/24/2024 at 3:42 PM, Campion said:

  

General chit chat is also how most people bond and form friendships though, and there's also the added dimension of body language and subtle flirting signals when they are testing the waters so to speak. 

 

It reminds me of that line from What a Wonderful World.   "I see friends shaking hands saying how do you do, They're really saying I love you". 

 

I suppose it does. But the problem I have in talking to people, especially in groups, is I tend to say what I think whenever someone mentions something which is, to me anyway, obvious BS that they believe. I was talking to someone on a dating site and she mentioned she was raising money for children with cancer, so me being the person I am who questions things I said "why don't these charities find out why children are getting cancer", she replied with "they are" lol. I've chatted to this person for awhile now and met her once and I don't think she takes my opinions the wrong (tbh I don't think she even understands what I am getting at). If you're in a group having a meal or a drink and some normie brings up Covid and there being a virus and asks you "so what do you think of it?", are you going to agree with he/she just to get along with them, or are you going to say what you think?. Every single person I have met in person are the same, they are never people who visit forums like this. I was listening to John Hamer awhile back where he said that all the people he associates with now are like minded truth people, and those who aren't or weren't he doesn't have anything to do with anymore. 

[peter]

On 8/18/2020 at 5:24 AM, - TZC - said:

Are you good in the kitchen?

back in the old wild west days ,I think the term was Home on the range

[Mr H]

46 minutes ago, Occulus5 said:

I suppose it does. But the problem I have in talking to people, especially in groups, is I tend to say what I think whenever someone mentions something which is, to me anyway, obvious BS that they believe. I was talking to someone on a dating site and she mentioned she was raising money for children with cancer, so me being the person I am who questions things I said "why don't these charities find out why children are getting cancer", she replied with "they are" lol. I've chatted to this person for awhile now and met her once and I don't think she takes my opinions the wrong (tbh I don't think she even understands what I am getting at). If you're in a group having a meal or a drink and some normie brings up Covid and there being a virus and asks you "so what do you think of it?", are you going to agree with he/she just to get along with them, or are you going to say what you think?. Every single person I have met in person are the same, they are never people who visit forums like this. I was listening to John Hamer awhile back where he said that all the people he associates with now are like minded truth people, and those who aren't or weren't he doesn't have anything to do with anymore. 

Haven't tried myself. But there are dating sites exclusively for non jabbed folks.

 

One example. Might be worth trying

 

https://dqdating.co.uk/

[Occulus5]

7 hours ago, Mr H said:

Haven't tried myself. But there are dating sites exclusively for non jabbed folks.

 

One example. Might be worth trying

 

https://dqdating.co.uk/

It doesn't bother me if someone has been jabbed or not, but if your views cause problems with others who don't agree with you then that's when people don't get on. I'm guessing that site won't have many UK members on it, or if there are I doubt they will be local to me, plus it will be another ripoff dating site like Match, Bumble, POF etc and full of fake or old profiles and scammers or where most of the women are up their own arses and want the perfect man. 

[lobster]

10 hours ago, Occulus5 said:

I suppose it does. But the problem I have in talking to people, especially in groups, is I tend to say what I think whenever someone mentions something which is, to me anyway, obvious BS that they believe. I was talking to someone on a dating site and she mentioned she was raising money for children with cancer, so me being the person I am who questions things I said "why don't these charities find out why children are getting cancer", she replied with "they are" lol. I've chatted to this person for awhile now and met her once and I don't think she takes my opinions the wrong (tbh I don't think she even understands what I am getting at). If you're in a group having a meal or a drink and some normie brings up Covid and there being a virus and asks you "so what do you think of it?", are you going to agree with he/she just to get along with them, or are you going to say what you think?. Every single person I have met in person are the same, they are never people who visit forums like this. I was listening to John Hamer awhile back where he said that all the people he associates with now are like minded truth people, and those who aren't or weren't he doesn't have anything to do with anymore. 

I cant remember the last time someone used covid as a conversation piece,  back in the dark days everyone did and my not very scientific poll revealed that 99 %of people thought it was bollox to one degree or another, admittedly these were not the people at home hiding behind the settee trembling in fear , so there may be some selection bias. But clearly these folk are around

 

Have you tried being enigmatic? 

Edited December 29, 2024 by lobster

[Mr H]

8 hours ago, Occulus5 said:

It doesn't bother me if someone has been jabbed or not, but if your views cause problems with others who don't agree with you then that's when people don't get on. I'm guessing that site won't have many UK members on it, or if there are I doubt they will be local to me, plus it will be another ripoff dating site like Match, Bumble, POF etc and full of fake or old profiles and scammers or where most of the women are up their own arses and want the perfect man. 

Well I just signed up for shits and giggles.

 

Not super active but there are some options. The profile are real because I saw someone on there I dated last year

 

You do have to pay to communicate though. 6 bucks a month I think..

 

Might be worth a try for 1 month...

[Mr H]

On 12/17/2024 at 11:06 PM, lobster said:

Social groups exist  so that" single" women in their 40s can meet similar, you have one of the most defeatist attitudes I've ever seen. Dependent on the interest, there is a good change single women will out number men several times. That was certainly the case with the one I joined, i hadnt got through the introduction evening before I was being hit on

 

So you have " standards " which mean you will spend your whole life alone rather than have a relationship with an engaging,  kind ,loyal interesting person who isn't particularly attractive? That does rather sound like the women you've been dissing on dating sites

I'm going to agree with Mr Lobster here. You do seem to have defeatist and negative attitude. Like, without even looking for free at the site I suggested you saw the negatives.

 

In my experience women enjoy positive confident men. If you're negative defeatist then you're going to only attract real bottom of the barrel types, which is what you said you are attracting.

 

Get some confidence, positive attitude, get a nice haircut and smart shirt and go get em!

[Occulus5]

12 hours ago, lobster said:

I cant remember the last time someone used covid as a conversation piece,  back in the dark days everyone did and my not very scientific poll revealed that 99 %of people thought it was bollox to one degree or another, admittedly these were not the people at home hiding behind the settee trembling in fear , so there may be some selection bias. But clearly these folk are around

 

Have you tried being enigmatic? 

I was just using Covid as an example, and yes it doesn't come up very often in conversation, but when it does I tend to not keep my mouth shut. As for 99% of people thinking it is bollox, sorry but everyone I know thinks Covid was real. My mate works at a hospital in Manchester on switchboard for ambulances, and I've mentioned to him about it not being real and he just thinks I'm mental (he also wasn't too happy when I mention the Manchester arena attack being staged). He had to have 3 Covid jabs and he doesn't even work on the wards, he said he would've lost his job if hadn't had them. My kids mum has had 3 (I think) working in a care home, and when I mention it all I get is "so who's gonna feed the kids and pay the bills if I left my job?". My mate says the same thing, he can't just get another job and he has cerebral palsy so he can't just do any job working at a supermarket or something like that. I used to work as a carer for someone with a disability, and as soon as they tried to make me wear a mask I was gone I just left the job, fortunately I was in a position where I wasn't short of money, sadly for most people leaving a job isn't an option, but since most people believed it was real it wasn't a problem for them because they just did as they were told for the sake of their job.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Occulus5

[Occulus5]

4 hours ago, Mr H said:

Well I just signed up for shits and giggles.

 

Not super active but there are some options. The profile are real because I saw someone on there I dated last year

 

You do have to pay to communicate though. 6 bucks a month I think..

 

Might be worth a try for 1 month...

If there's noone in the UK on it or from my area (Liverpool, Manchester etc) then it's pointless. No harm in trying it though.

[Occulus5]

3 hours ago, Mr H said:

I'm going to agree with Mr Lobster here. You do seem to have defeatist and negative attitude. Like, without even looking for free at the site I suggested you saw the negatives.

 

In my experience women enjoy positive confident men. If you're negative defeatist then you're going to only attract real bottom of the barrel types, which is what you said you are attracting.

 

Get some confidence, positive attitude, get a nice haircut and smart shirt and go get em!

I am like this mainly because of my experiences with these awful dating sites. I am normally a negative person anymore which doesn't help. I think being lonely and having no friends except one has made me like this. I do attract bottom of the barrel types. I do need to be confident and positive.

[lobster]

27 minutes ago, Occulus5 said:

I was just using Covid as an example, and yes it doesn't come up very often in conversation, but when it does I tend to not keep my mouth shut. As for 99% of people thinking it is bollox, sorry but everyone I know thinks Covid was real. My mate works at a hospital in Manchester on switchboard for ambulances, and I've mentioned to him about it not being real and he just thinks I'm mental (he also wasn't too happy when I mention the Manchester arena attack being staged). He had to have 3 Covid jabs and he doesn't even work on the wards, he said he would've lost his job if hadn't had them. My kids mum has had 3 (I think) working in a care home, and when I mention it all I get is "so who's gonna feed the kids and pay the bills if I left my job?". My mate says the same thing, he can't just get another job and he has cerebral palsy so he can't just do any job working at a supermarket or something like that. I used to work as a carer for someone with a disability, and as soon as they tried to make me wear a mask I was gone I just left the job, fortunately I was in a position where I wasn't short of money, sadly for most people leaving a job isn't an option, but since most people believed it was real it wasn't a problem for them because they just did as they were told for the sake of their job.

I didnt say most people think it was made up, just that most people who were out and about during lock down thought it was bolux to one degree or another , that's a sizable % if not the majority of people

 

If you reply, I think it was massively over hyped, you may get nods of agreement, and that isn't lying on your part, just not the full truth

 

I dont think covid was made up, on the contrary I think it was released on purpose and was very real, that's not a conversation I start with random strangers,  or they will just conclude I'm mad. In fact there will be people along on here shortly to tell me I'm mad, it's just not a very popular opinion 

[Occulus5]

5 hours ago, Mr H said:

Well I just signed up for shits and giggles.

 

Not super active but there are some options. The profile are real because I saw someone on there I dated last year

 

You do have to pay to communicate though. 6 bucks a month I think..

 

Might be worth a try for 1 month...

I do wonder if that dating site has been set up as a way of collecting information about people regarding not being jabbed. 

 

Just signed up and added a photo, and already I'm getting a scam vibe from this site. I checked one profile and the person hadn't been online since Sept 2023, and another was last online two months ago, and there is hardly anyone on it from my area, and I saw at least one profile of someone I had seen on POF with the same photos years ago. These dating are all the same, I think they are just copying other peoples profiles from other sites. I saw one who was last online yesterday, but looking at the profile with no info and her photos she looked like a model I suspect it's a fake profile. I find it hard to believe the people on that site are anti vaxxers, I think they have just copied profiles from other dating sites.

 

Deleted my profile as it was a waste of time. They are all the same. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Occulus5

[Campion]

10 hours ago, Mr H said:

In my experience women enjoy positive confident men. If you're negative defeatist then you're going to only attract real bottom of the barrel types, which is what you said you are attracting. 
  
Get some confidence, positive attitude, get a nice haircut and smart shirt and go get em!

  

Great advice Mr H, though the first two parts easier said than done (confidence & positive attitude).  If someone's suffering from negativity then changing their mindset is quite a big deal and imo it's worth making some progress there before launching out onto dating websites and having more offputting experiences. 

 

Call me old-fashioned but I think there's something to be said for traditional match makers where a real person uses their experience of people and relationships to make matches and set up couples on dates.  Especially if you have challenges in this area, you can talk to some and explain your circumstances - I went to see one when I was on the dating scene but they're likely to cost more than a run of the mill website or app. 

[Mr H]

2 minutes ago, Campion said:

  

Great advice Mr H, though the first two parts easier said than done (confidence & positive attitude).  If someone's suffering from negativity then changing their mindset is quite a big deal and imo it's worth making some progress there before launching out onto dating websites and having more offputting experiences. 

 

To assist....

 

BIG DICK energy is real my bros...

 

And the good thing is, you don't have to have a biggun to tap into it.

 

This contemplation will help.

 

Take a deep breath in through the nasal cavity and allow the breath to pass through the chakras towards your root chakra.

 

Now imagine you have a GIGANTIC schwantz - one so big it could lassoo a startled Gazelle.

 

Bathe & feel this energy.

 

Ground the energy by allowing it to flow into the earth.

 

Slowly open your eyes and notice how the world treats you differently.......

 

[Campion]

On 12/29/2024 at 1:32 PM, Occulus5 said:

But the problem I have in talking to people, especially in groups, is I tend to say what I think whenever someone mentions something which is, to me anyway, obvious BS that they believe.

 

10 hours ago, Occulus5 said:

I am like this mainly because of my experiences with these awful dating sites. I am normally a negative person anymore which doesn't help. I think being lonely and having no friends except one has made me like this. I do attract bottom of the barrel types. I do need to be confident and positive.

  

I think it may be worth considering whether this is just a problem with the dating sites themselves, with meeting like-minded people or if you have a need for some personal development more generally.  Ie is the root cause on the outside or the inside.  If it is on the inside, if you can afford it, a good life coach or spiritual or therapeutic work could help your life wholistically.  Ie not just for dating and social life but in other areas like work and health.  

  

For example I have anxiety which has affected most areas of my life, especially high pressure situations like dating and job interviews.  I'm not saying that's your problem, but only when I realised the root cause of the outward symptoms I was having, could I make some real progress rather than just avoiding the stressful situations.  I'm now past the stage where I need to do things like dating, interviews or public speaking as I'm long since married and also retired. 

 

Of course you might not need any inner work and the problems are just with the outside world.  In which case, it's a matter of finding the right networks of like-minded people, and I'm sure there are others out there looking for people like you to network with right now too. 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Campion

[Occulus5]

On 12/30/2024 at 10:03 PM, Campion said:

 

  

I think it may be worth considering whether this is just a problem with the dating sites themselves, with meeting like-minded people or if you have a need for some personal development more generally.  Ie is the root cause on the outside or the inside.  If it is on the inside, if you can afford it, a good life coach or spiritual or therapeutic work could help your life wholistically.  Ie not just for dating and social life but in other areas like work and health.  

  

For example I have anxiety which has affected most areas of my life, especially high pressure situations like dating and job interviews.  I'm not saying that's your problem, but only when I realised the root cause of the outward symptoms I was having, could I make some real progress rather than just avoiding the stressful situations.  I'm now past the stage where I need to do things like dating, interviews or public speaking as I'm long since married and also retired. 

 

Of course you might not need any inner work and the problems are just with the outside world.  In which case, it's a matter of finding the right networks of like-minded people, and I'm sure there are others out there looking for people like you to network with right now too. 

 

I think the dating sites are partly to blame, they haven't helped at all because I don't get many replies and when I do the people who I manage to chat to tend to be either time wasters who aren't interested in getting to know me, or they have issues, often it can be abit of both. I think alot of them find me uninteresting and boring to talk to, they are probably used to men being flirty with them and making them laugh. 

 

I don't think I have anxiety issues, if I have it's not a big thing. I don't seem to be lucky or that I am never in the right place at the tight time to meet someone. It's likely that I don't have the right connections, as you say it's finding the right networks of like-minded people. My friend keeps telling me I need counselling because all I do is moan and talk negative, and he is aware that I have anger issues. He says after his girlfriend left him that he felt he needed counselling, and he says it helped. He always blames his mild cerebral palsy for why relationships don't last with him, because he believes that the women don't want to look after him. 

Edited January 2 by Occulus5

[Mr H]

This is AI's answer on how to get a GF

 

Finding a girlfriend involves a mix of personal development, social interaction, and sometimes a bit of luck. Here are some steps you might consider:

 

1. Work on Yourself

Self-Improvement: Engage in activities that boost your confidence and well-being. This could be physical fitness, learning new skills, or pursuing hobbies. People are often attracted to those who have a passion or a life of their own.

Mental Health: Ensure you're in a good place mentally. Confidence and genuine happiness are attractive qualities.

 

2. Expand Your Social Circle

Meet New People: Join clubs, groups, or events that align with your interests. This could be book clubs, sports teams, cooking classes, or volunteer groups. The more people you meet, the higher your chances of meeting someone compatible.

Online Dating: Consider using dating apps or websites. They can be a great way to meet people outside your immediate social circle. Be honest in your profile and clear about what you're looking for.

 

3. Improve Your Social Skills

Communication: Work on your conversational skills. Listen actively, ask questions, and show genuine interest in others.

Body Language: Pay attention to non-verbal cues like eye contact, smiling, and open body posture, which can make you more approachable.

 

4. Be Authentic

Be Yourself: Authenticity attracts. Pretending to be someone you're not is exhausting and unsustainable. Let people see the real you.

 

5. Take Initiative

Ask Someone Out: If you meet someone you like, don't hesitate to ask them out for coffee or a casual event. Be clear about your intentions but respectful of their response.

Plan Activities: When dating, plan activities that you both enjoy. It shows you've put thought into the time spent together.

 

6. Respect and Patience

Respect Boundaries: Always respect personal space and boundaries. Consent is key in all forms of interaction.

Patience: Relationships don't happen overnight. Be patient with yourself and with others. Sometimes, friendships can turn into something more over time.

 

7. Learn from Experience

Feedback: If things don't work out, try to learn from each experience rather than seeing it as a failure.

Adapt: Not every approach will work with every person. Be adaptable in how you interact and connect with others.

 

8. Online Presence

Social Media: While you shouldn't base your entire search here, having a positive online presence can help. Share your interests and life in a way that invites interaction.

 

Remember, everyone's journey is unique. What works for one person might not work for another. The key is to enjoy the process, learn from each interaction, and keep an open mind. Also, not everyone you meet will be looking for the same thing you are, so clear communication about what you're looking for is crucial.

[Occulus5]

10 hours ago, Mr H said:

This is AI's answer on how to get a GF

 

Finding a girlfriend involves a mix of personal development, social interaction, and sometimes a bit of luck. Here are some steps you might consider:

 

1. Work on Yourself

Self-Improvement: Engage in activities that boost your confidence and well-being. This could be physical fitness, learning new skills, or pursuing hobbies. People are often attracted to those who have a passion or a life of their own.

Mental Health: Ensure you're in a good place mentally. Confidence and genuine happiness are attractive qualities.

 

2. Expand Your Social Circle

Meet New People: Join clubs, groups, or events that align with your interests. This could be book clubs, sports teams, cooking classes, or volunteer groups. The more people you meet, the higher your chances of meeting someone compatible.

Online Dating: Consider using dating apps or websites. They can be a great way to meet people outside your immediate social circle. Be honest in your profile and clear about what you're looking for.

 

3. Improve Your Social Skills

Communication: Work on your conversational skills. Listen actively, ask questions, and show genuine interest in others.

Body Language: Pay attention to non-verbal cues like eye contact, smiling, and open body posture, which can make you more approachable.

 

4. Be Authentic

Be Yourself: Authenticity attracts. Pretending to be someone you're not is exhausting and unsustainable. Let people see the real you.

 

5. Take Initiative

Ask Someone Out: If you meet someone you like, don't hesitate to ask them out for coffee or a casual event. Be clear about your intentions but respectful of their response.

Plan Activities: When dating, plan activities that you both enjoy. It shows you've put thought into the time spent together.

 

6. Respect and Patience

Respect Boundaries: Always respect personal space and boundaries. Consent is key in all forms of interaction.

Patience: Relationships don't happen overnight. Be patient with yourself and with others. Sometimes, friendships can turn into something more over time.

 

7. Learn from Experience

Feedback: If things don't work out, try to learn from each experience rather than seeing it as a failure.

Adapt: Not every approach will work with every person. Be adaptable in how you interact and connect with others.

 

8. Online Presence

Social Media: While you shouldn't base your entire search here, having a positive online presence can help. Share your interests and life in a way that invites interaction.

 

Remember, everyone's journey is unique. What works for one person might not work for another. The key is to enjoy the process, learn from each interaction, and keep an open mind. Also, not everyone you meet will be looking for the same thing you are, so clear communication about what you're looking for is crucial.

Thanks for points and advice, I agree they are important and are beneficial with the exception of dating sites. I have used quite a few dating sites and they are all bad. 

 

I agree that my social skills need to be improved as I lack them, and my social circle needs expanding.

[Occulus5]

I went on a date last week with someone I messaged through facebook dating. After messaging for about 4 days she asked could we meet for a date so i said that would be great. As I live in the Liverpool area and she lives in Cheshire and I don't drive, but this didnt seem a big deal for her and was drove to meet me at a restaurant. She didn't really make much of an effort to get to know me and I thought she was abit stuck up; compared to the other 2 dates I had, one in Sept and other in Nov, she wasn't very friendly. We seemed to have something's in common like walking and dogs, but that was really it. She never thanked me for buying her meal and just said bye as she left, no smile or hug. I didn't message her for a day on Whatsapp but when I did it was like talking to a brick wall. Eventually after messaging her twice she replied but didn't say much, and she asked what I was doing, I just said I was minding my kids. After this she never replied back to me and I've messaged her twice, so it looks like she has ghosted me. Alot of women seem to have a problem when you mention your kids and looking after them, or she assumed I was still with someone when I wasn't. It would probably take me another 50 messages to get another reply, and if I'm very lucky a date out of it. Only the fourth date in a year and it came to nothing. My exes' niece is only 21 and she has had about 6 boyfriends, and she just got back with one of her exes and been on holiday, yet when I was in my teens and 20s I couldn't meet anyone, but most people meet someone else in no time at all after splitting up with the exes, yet I've been single for 4 years and never met anyone. What have these people got that I don't? is it my personality, my looks, etc?. My friend says to me that if I drove it makes all the difference meeting someone, plus having a job and being independent. 

[Dragon Slayer]

3 hours ago, Occulus5 said:

I went on a date last week with someone I messaged through facebook dating. After messaging for about 4 days she asked could we meet for a date so i said that would be great. As I live in the Liverpool area and she lives in Cheshire and I don't drive, but this didnt seem a big deal for her and was drove to meet me at a restaurant. She didn't really make much of an effort to get to know me and I thought she was abit stuck up; compared to the other 2 dates I had, one in Sept and other in Nov, she wasn't very friendly. We seemed to have something's in common like walking and dogs, but that was really it. She never thanked me for buying her meal and just said bye as she left, no smile or hug. I didn't message her for a day on Whatsapp but when I did it was like talking to a brick wall. Eventually after messaging her twice she replied but didn't say much, and she asked what I was doing, I just said I was minding my kids. After this she never replied back to me and I've messaged her twice, so it looks like she has ghosted me. Alot of women seem to have a problem when you mention your kids and looking after them, or she assumed I was still with someone when I wasn't. It would probably take me another 50 messages to get another reply, and if I'm very lucky a date out of it. Only the fourth date in a year and it came to nothing. My exes' niece is only 21 and she has had about 6 boyfriends, and she just got back with one of her exes and been on holiday, yet when I was in my teens and 20s I couldn't meet anyone, but most people meet someone else in no time at all after splitting up with the exes, yet I've been single for 4 years and never met anyone. What have these people got that I don't? is it my personality, my looks, etc?. My friend says to me that if I drove it makes all the difference meeting someone, plus having a job and being independent. 

IMO. A woman associated with either, or-Veterinarians/works with animals. Social care/ homeless. And, but not least, Librarians. Depends what you looking for. Empathy and some intelligence do it for me.

[Anti Facts Sir]

TBF, facebook ain't really the place to find someone suitable. Suppose you could consider every bad date like that a bullet dodged.

[Occulus5]

1 hour ago, Anti Facts Sir said:

TBF, facebook ain't really the place to find someone suitable. Suppose you could consider every bad date like that a bullet dodged.

You are right it isn't, and neither are other dating sites. Those sites just attract the wrong kind of people, they are either dishonest women, liars, cheats, narcs, golddiggers or have mental or physical health issues. My friend keeps telling me to join a group and meet people that way, but he isn't meeting anyone himself despite him keeping himself busy going to the gym playing picketball, he's been going to musicals on his own, he's busy working, drives a car etc, and he's been single for about 7 years. I think his problem is that he isn't making new friends from the places he goes. You can have hobbies and interests galore, but if you're doing those things on your own and are not meeting new people and making friends then you're unlikely to meet the opposite sex. 

Edited January 17 by Occulus5

[Mr H]

A deep dive into why we seek to date at a soul level.

 

Culturally we have been conditioned to identify with mind (ego). The nature of mind is motion. Because if it stays still, mind disappears. You can check this in your experience via meditation.

 

Our true nature; being is in contradistinction. In that it's nature is peaceful, still, silent.

 

At some level we still remember our true nature and this is our no1 longing to return home. So subtlety we seek things that seems constant or brings us peace. This is why folks like large organizations like governments, because it seems constant and stable. Similarly we seek this in others to return to peace.

 

What is deemed the pinnacle of a relationship? Sex. Or orgasm. What happens in orgasm? We lose ourselves, we briefly experience going outside of mind and this return for a brief moment to pure being. It is in this state of no mind , our natural state that we return to becoming who we truly are, master creators and thus we are able to create the ultimate thing a human can, another human.