Can we oppose globalism without being nationalists/conservatives?

[JohnB]

David Icke says that the global elite want to get rid of nation-states because nation-states get in the way of global control, and that they want to dilute national identity for that reason. Yet he also said "I am not a nationalist" and "Flag-waving turns me sick." 

 

I get why he's saying that, but is it possible to be anti-globalist without being nationalist in some shape or form? I know there are different kinds of nationalism, eg. ethnic nationalism (which I'm sure Icke is against), civic nationalism, left-wing nationalism, right-wing nationalism and so on.

 

I find with a lot of Icke's ideas he seems to tread a fine line between opposing the global political, financial and economic elites, and expressing views that could be construed as reactionary (though I'm sure the latter is not his intention). Sometimes I think the language he uses isn't quite as careful as it could be. For example, he talks about opposing the "transgender agenda" while at the same time saying he isn't transphobic and that how people choose to identify or what they do with their bodies is "none of my business".

 

I guess Icke is saying that what really matters is what the global elite's agenda is, rather than what we personally think of transgender people, gays, ethnic minorities etc. But my concern is that many people don't get the subtlety of that. They prefer to see things in terms of clear-cut opposing "sides" such as nationalism vs globalism, Jews vs gentiles, alpha males vs feminism, heterosexuals vs LGBT, whites vs non-whites, Christianity vs "godless atheism" etc. That's why I sometimes worry that he could be giving succour to people who hold those type of views.

Edited June 21, 2020 by JohnB

[kj35]

I tend to agree with some of what you are saying. I think it's the thing of talking to people like us who understand what he means. While people who are open or new to it don't get the subtleties of what he means. When for example he talks of the transgender agenda and he means the cult's agenda to remove the sexes and the long term plan to make humans asexual infertile servants, most new people would just hear transgender agenda as the current trans rights matters. Of course he means some of that but it isn't transphobic he's talking of the push for that agenda over and above the non trans ...if that makes sense. It's hard. When my family listen they don't understand about the cult agenda at all whereas those of us familiar with his work do.

 

It's like work jargon, you can easily forget others may not get the nuance.

[zArk]

i do not think opposing the world is the answer, it merely feeds on antagonism

ignoring it and  less input reduces its control

 

i see this journey of life as taoism. discarding, shedding the worldly influence, the ego removed. finding oneself

 

at such a point, the new world order or old world has no control or influence

 

 

 

[JohnB]

18 minutes ago, kj35 said:

I tend to agree with some of what you are saying. I think it's the thing of talking to people like us who understand what he means. While people who are open or new to it don't get the subtleties of what he means. When for example he talks of the transgender agenda and he means the cult's agenda to remove the sexes and the long term plan to make humans asexual infertile servants, most new people would just hear transgender agenda as the current trans rights matters. Of course he means some of that but it isn't transphobic he's talking of the push for that agenda over and above the non trans ...if that makes sense. It's hard. When my family listen they don't understand about the cult agenda at all whereas those of us familiar with his work do.

 

It's like work jargon, you can easily forget others may not get the nuance.

Yes, you've pretty much summed it up there. I think Icke just says what he thinks and leaves people to make up their own minds about it, and if that means some alt-right people like what he says, so be it, and if some liberals or leftists like what he says, he's cool with that too. I think the alt-right/far right people are more dubious about him than they used to be though (I've recently seen some quite vitriolic comments from them against Icke), especially since he made it clear that he doesn't like Donald Trump and certainly doesn't support him.

[rideforever]

The answers are straightforward.

Criticising things is very easy because you don't have to provide any alternative solutions ... it's a consequence free indulgence.  You can say just whatever the hell you want and slag off everything and everyone, providing no realistic alternatives.  And the audience enjoys it because they may not personally be prepared to change anything in their lives; so they get to feel they know something and are making a difference ... when actually they are unwilling to personally do anything.

And in all this the principles upon which life operates are completely unknown.

Human beings are an animal species and all animal species protect their families and communities with great violence, because that is the only way to survive and it is entirely correct to do so.  Therefore traditional nation states are correct.

As part of the severe protection of their lives they strongly discipline any elements that are dangerous, particularly loosh degenerates.  They are strong dealt with as this is the only practical and effective means to do so.  Any society that refuses will die as these elements betray and twist the nature of the social reality and spread like a plague.

The traditional marriage is the highest form of power a human being can have because it reflects the Yin&Yang regulation of the entire cosmos, but at the level of the human being. If you live like this you emanate very high energy that lifts the entire society ... the survival or extinction of a society depends entirely on the amount of conscious emanation the people inside that society are emanating.  First the people go dark before a society would fall.
All this things are clearly understood by human beings and it is why these forms of life have been selected over the years.

Next thing is that humans live in the underworld beneath the light - in this world there are may dark forces continuously damaging everything and so the line has to be continuously straightened, and never will there be rest.  The challenges and dark forces shall never ever end, and so never must end your strength and action.

Beyond that, anyone who wishes or who has the capacity to become a Conscious Human can follow any of the existing paths with intensity and effort, and they pretty much all work if you do what you are taught to do.  And this provides everything a seeker could wish for.

 

[tooth]

@JohnB

 

No

[JohnB]

35 minutes ago, rideforever said:

The answers are straightforward.

Criticising things is very easy because you don't have to provide any alternative solutions ... it's a consequence free indulgence.  You can say just whatever the hell you want and slag off everything and everyone, providing no realistic alternatives.  And the audience enjoys it because they may not personally be prepared to change anything in their lives; so they get to feel they know something and are making a difference ... when actually they are unwilling to personally do anything.

And in all this the principles upon which life operates are completely unknown.

Human beings are an animal species and all animal species protect their families and communities with great violence, because that is the only way to survive and it is entirely correct to do so.  Therefore traditional nation states are correct.

As part of the severe protection of their lives they strongly discipline any elements that are dangerous, particularly loosh degenerates.  They are strong dealt with as this is the only practical and effective means to do so.  Any society that refuses will die as these elements betray and twist the nature of the social reality and spread like a plague.

The traditional marriage is the highest form of power a human being can have because it reflects the Yin&Yang regulation of the entire cosmos, but at the level of the human being.

 

So are you basically saying that David Icke is wrong when he says that gender, sexual orientation, race etc are nothing more than "external spacesuits" and "software programmes"?

[tooth]

12 minutes ago, JohnB said:

So are you basically saying that David Icke is wrong when he says that gender, sexual orientation, race etc are nothing more than "external spacesuits" and "software programmes"?

 

who is programming the space suits ? 

 

because they are being programmed yes 

 

so , according to the truth as you understand it who has near full spectrum control over the programming people receive ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dagmar Gross]

I don't know how old you people are, but both David and I grew up in the sixties and seventies and we have only in the last few years found out that in those days people were locked up for being gay as this was seen as a crime, which I think atrocious! As this issue hadn't really come into my life very much during my childhood and teenage years, as it was covered up so much, it was for example a shock to me that male movie stars like Rock Hudson and Richard Chamberlain were gay! I had always wished for Rock Hudson and Doris Day to marry, because I knew she was treated really badly by her husband and thought Rock Hudson gorgeous. Well, of course, when I found out Rock Hudson was gay I realized that that would probably not have worked. And Richard Chamberlain? Wow, were we in love with him when we watched him in "The Thornbirds" and another TV series where he played a British guy in Japan, "Shogun"! And much later I discovered he was gay too. Well, I wouldn't have developed the same depth of feelings for him if I'd known... Elton John, too, has told us about how he needed to hide his sexuality and I certainly never realized anything way back then! Because all three of them, for example, hid that very well.

I think that in these past couple of decades this whole gender thing has swung to the other extreme, blown totally out of proportion, and it really needs to become balanced, simply with full acceptance of and respect for every type of sexuality. Regardless of which one we were born with, we all have our problems with it, although anyone not straight I think has more of a problem than the straight people among us. I may just be seeing this from my own perspective. I can only guess, but we all need to treat everyone regardless with equal respect and love.

 

As to nationalism, I think it especially beautiful in Europe that there is such a diversion of races and cultural peculiarities. European countries are fairly small, but the bigger ones like Spain, France, Germany, Britain and Italy are really a conglomeration of lots of little areas with people living in them of quite different dialects and cultures. This makes travel within Europe hugely interesting, but you get the same regional differences in countries further east, too. The EU has really endeavoured to preserve this cultural and racial difference, as its member states have wanted it too, and I think this amazing. We all have the same basic needs and that goes for humans all over the world as well. And this is what brings us all together and travelling has helped us all so much to understand each other and should really have eliminated wars entirely. And if it weren't for the weapons and fossil fuel and mineral industries, there would now be no wars anymore and everyone would prosper. The world is not over-populated. It is the greed of the corporations and the warmongers that prevents that everyone on Earth prospers.

 

And now, these evil forces want to break all this understanding between peoples of all races and cultures up by first of all making travel very difficult if not impossible. Thankfully, at least for the time being, we have the Internet to still communicate across the globe! But who knows for how long if the Evil Ones continue to get their way... We can but hope.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Dagmar Gross

[EnigmaticWorld]

No.

[rideforever]

6 hours ago, JohnB said:

So are you basically saying that David Icke is wrong when he says that gender, sexual orientation, race etc are nothing more than "external spacesuits" and "software programmes"?

 

I don't know what he said.
But those ideas are wrong and are a desecration of your soul.

Such things occur when the soul is damaged and in the case of human beings their souls are extremely damaged ... or more correctly, the expression in the world of the soul is deeply fragmented and so the soul becomes lost.  

Such strange behaviours in fact prevent you from feeling and owning your soul - and in fact in such a damaged state you are parasited by the dark forces, they eat you alive because you cannot embody your soul.  Such activities re-wire your soul so that you function at a low level of energy.

 

Existence works through incarnations but that does not mean the incarnation is not part of your soul, just because they are "temporary".

Traditionally on this planet spiritual people have dismissed the human being as "ego" and they wish to live on mountains smoking hash and singing Om Nama Sivaya.  Although there is a deep part of our reality that can be sensed in this way, it is actually sad - but maybe for some people that's the best they could do.  They killed their sexuality, cut off their hair and so on.

The main problem is fragmentation, if humans were not fragmented they could sense their soul inside their ordinary human lives ... they would feel their human lives to be shimmering.

The voices in the head that we have, the emotional disturbances, and our over-reliance on society ... all these indicate fragmentation.

 

Saying that it's all a software programme ... what this means is that you are unconscious, you feel unconscious thoughts in your head and you notice patterns, right.

But this is actually a state of mental distress.

You should not have these things in your head; you should own your thoughts mind and your soul and be One.
Humans are very confused about these things.

 

All the species .... well they are not perfect.

Say there is a reptile who grows the beginning of wings ... well he might like his wings but nature only gave him the beginning of wings and every now and again he flies into a wall.

Humans are the same, the "mind" is just the beginning of something, it is not complete.  Therefore we have higher functions then animals ... but we are confused by them as well.

Spirituality is to complete the job of nature and become a stable species with fully fledged equipment ... or self-realisation.

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by rideforever

[screamingeagle]

i'm with this one,

the proof is all around us(in any country)

[EnigmaticWorld]

I just want people to have the right to have self-determination for their homelands.

[jonesthepost]

13 minutes ago, screamingeagle said:

i'm with this one,

the proof is all around us(in any country)

 

My sentiments as well.

 

I love Arthur Schopenhauers quotes; he is a wise man.

[oz93666]

11 hours ago, JohnB said:

David Icke says that the global elite want to get rid of nation-states because nation-states get in the way of global control, and that they want to dilute national identity for that reason. Yet he also said "I am not a nationalist" and "Flag-waving turns me sick." 

 

The controllers are not stupid, they create policies  which often are essentially correct .... So it's right to have a one world government ... and it's right that people should be able to move where ever they want on the planet with no restrictions , these are essential before we go off world en mass (very soon) ... So these two ideas will get a lot of intelligent , thoughtful people behind them ....

 

But the evil ones implement the ideas in a way to cause maximum chaos and control for them ... the transition to a world with no borders has to be done incrementally , the way it's being done now is designed to destroy Europe .... and a one world government also has to be achieved with the people in true control. 

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, screamingeagle said:

i'm with this one,

the proof is all around us(in any country)

 

Schopenhauer was a very unhappy man who had an unhappy life.

 

Here is says that all pride in your nation is false ... but is this so?  Is all pride in your nation the same?
No.

Can you not be proud of yourself and your family and your community and your nation?

 

What is the obsession to judge people to death ... to interpret people in the absolute worst possible way.

Meanwhile you don't live in a cave, you live under the laws and social regulation that people made, there are benefits.

This kind of all out attack against everyone and everything makes you very afraid and unhappy.

 

Anyway, the nation and its Government should be like a family, and in some ways like a lineage and guild ... for instance the legal system is like that with "Chambers" which is a kind of lineage system.

That is why the EU and any world bodies fail and become evil ... because they are no longer connected to any nation or any people.  You have to at the very least look people in the fact, your MP.

 

And more important than that is the spiritual tradition in any nation, and also the kind of work available in a society.

If there is no spiritual tradition and the work is soulless machine like ... then you are in trouble.

Government can only be formed by the people that society is making.

 

 

[JohnB]

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

I don't know what he said.
But those ideas are wrong and are a desecration of your soul.

Such things occur when the soul is damaged and in the case of human beings their souls are extremely damaged ... or more correctly, the expression in the world of the soul is deeply fragmented and so the soul becomes lost.  

Such strange behaviours in fact prevent you from feeling and owning your soul - and in fact in such a damaged state you are parasited by the dark forces, they eat you alive because you cannot embody your soul.  Such activities re-wire your soul so that you function at a low level of energy.

 

Existence works through incarnations but that does not mean the incarnation is not part of your soul, just because they are "temporary".

Traditionally on this planet spiritual people have dismissed the human being as "ego" and they wish to live on mountains smoking hash and singing Om Nama Sivaya.  Although there is a deep part of our reality that can be sensed in this way, it is actually sad - but maybe for some people that's the best they could do.  They killed their sexuality, cut off their hair and so on.

The main problem is fragmentation, if humans were not fragmented they could sense their soul inside their ordinary human lives ... they would feel their human lives to be shimmering.

The voices in the head that we have, the emotional disturbances, and our over-reliance on society ... all these indicate fragmentation.

 

Saying that it's all a software programme ... what this means is that you are unconscious, you feel unconscious thoughts in your head and you notice patterns, right.

But this is actually a state of mental distress.

You should not have these things in your head; you should own your thoughts mind and your soul and be One.
Humans are very confused about these things.

To put it into context, David Icke believes that we live in a virtual reality universe, and that only consciousness is real. It is precisely because we are "One" that he regards all identities except Infinite Consciousness as fake. He says that we are all one Infinite Consciousness and that our individual existences, including our associated identities such as race and gender, are merely experiences we're having. They are not who we are. That's why he says that things such as race, gender, sexual orientation, even species, are "external spacesuits" and "software programmes" (his words). He also said "I am not David Icke. I am Infinite Consciousness having an experience called David Icke", and "We are not human. We are Infinite Consciousness having an experience called being human". He says the same in relation to all perceived categories.

Edited June 22, 2020 by JohnB

[JohnB]

3 hours ago, EnigmaticWorld said:

I just want people to have the right to have self-determination for their homelands.

That's fair enough.

[rideforever]

15 minutes ago, JohnB said:

To put it into context, David Icke believes that what we live in a virtual reality universe, and that only consciousness is real. It is precisely because we are "One" that he regards all identities except Infinite Consciousness as fake. He says that we are all one Infinite Consciousness and our individual existences, including our associated identities such as race and gender, are merely experiences we're having. They are not who we are. That's why he says that things such as race, gender, sexual orientation, even species, are "external spacesuits" and "software programmes" (his words). He also said "I am not David Icke. I am Infinite Consciousness having an experience called David Icke", and "We are not human. We are Infinite Consciousness having an experience called being human". He says the same in relation to all perceived categories.

 

Yes well such half-truth is traditional, it is thousands of years old.  And the obvious stupidity of it is thousands of years old.  Let's look at some questions:
1. If you are Infinite Consciousness then why are you not Infinite Consciousness.  Why do you suffer, why are you bothered, why do you try to teach anyone?
2. If you are Infinite Consciousness, how is it possible for you to forget?  And if you do forget then what is the point of being Infinite Consciousness.  Isn't it supposed to be a great thing?  But how can it be great if you completely "forget" and then end up being a suffering human being on a stupid planet?
3. When you say nothing is "real" ... what does that actually mean?  Do you not eat anymore?  Do not wake up anymore?
What is the value of saying your life is not real when your life is all you do?  Isn't it stupid?  
A birthday part is not "real" because it is temporary.  But does that lessen the value of it?
And what else will you do without birthday parties?
Even the Sun is "temporary", does that mean it is "not real"?  
Maybe you need a complete different question to ask.
4. When you go to sleep at night, somebody in Japan wakes up.  And then same thing will happen when you are dead.
Is that good enough for you?
Do you say to yourself ... oh it's okay life goes on because somebody in Japan wakes up?
Is that what you say to yourself?
Or do you say : I DON'T WANT TO FUCKING DIE AND THAT IS NOT ME.

-most welcome!-

 

Not only that ... but we are existence searching for Truth - we are on this planet and we should try to express the highest here, that is love of life.  Others on other planets do the same there.
Therefore whether you are chopping carrots, getting married, or building a bridge ... express truth.
If you say it's all garbage you are doing great harm actually.
But yes it is a joy and a relief to experience a spiritual state of consciousness ... many who have gone that way just stopped living normally and that's fine - it is a relief.  But it is sad that you cannot appreciate this world that gave birth to you.

 

And ... to enter the spiritual life takes intelligence and sensitivity.  Where will you learn intelligence and sensitivity?
You only have this mortal human life, and you should learn it there, you just strive to understand all of life by understanding what is in front of you here on this earth.  If not, if you don't bother, then you will never understand anything.
 

Edited June 22, 2020 by rideforever

[EnigmaticWorld]

Just now, JohnB said:

That's fair enough.

 

Don't get me wrong, in an ideal world there would be no borders and there would be more freedom to travel and live where one likes, but I think that would be a disaster while people are still so tribal.

[JohnB]

1 minute ago, EnigmaticWorld said:

 

Don't get me wrong, in an ideal world there would be no borders and there would be more freedom to travel and live where one likes, but I think that would be a disaster while people are still so tribal.

Or maybe it would be a disaster while the global elite are still in power, as it would give them much more direct control over everything.

[screamingeagle]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Schopenhauer was a very unhappy man who had an unhappy life.

 

Here is says that all pride in your nation is false ... but is this so?  Is all pride in your nation the same?
No.

Can you not be proud of yourself and your family and your community and your nation?

 

What is the obsession to judge people to death ... to interpret people in the absolute worst possible way.

Meanwhile you don't live in a cave, you live under the laws and social regulation that people made, there are benefits.

This kind of all out attack against everyone and everything makes you very afraid and unhappy.

 

Anyway, the nation and its Government should be like a family, and in some ways like a lineage and guild ... for instance the legal system is like that with "Chambers" which is a kind of lineage system.

That is why the EU and any world bodies fail and become evil ... because they are no longer connected to any nation or any people.  You have to at the very least look people in the fact, your MP.

 

And more important than that is the spiritual tradition in any nation, and also the kind of work available in a society.

If there is no spiritual tradition and the work is soulless machine like ... then you are in trouble.

Government can only be formed by the people that society is making.

 

 

i'm not familiar with his work,but i think it is like that Oscar Wilde quote 

"patriotisam is the virtue of the vicious one"(i'm paraphrasing) which is also put out of context in the above line 

 

how i understand AS quote

 

first you need to build your self up as person,physicaly,mental and spiritual

 

and the you can "adopt" societys norms

but when the time comes you have the capacity to question any of them and discard them as you wish....even if it is your nationality

 

you say "i wont be manipulated with it,what you are doing is wrong and you are hidding it behind nationality"

 

i can't remeber exact quote but it is something like this...

 

"all wars were fought becaouse of the obidience"

 

those people(both sides) were manipulated by their goverments on the baisis of their love for the country/nationality

 

so when i see a mob waving flags(before the election lets say) i don't want be part of it  

 

and this is where AS quote fits for me....

 

boosting pride without intelect and spirituality is very dangerous thing(again history is my evidence imo)

[rideforever]

@screamingeagle
I don't know how long this world is going to hold together anyhow.
Good time to merge with God, because anything can happen.
Cycling today I almost got run into by a car ... why?
Because people are insane, you never know what they will do - they are insane in their heads.
Nothing much can be done here, do your best and if you can then leave.
Especially now, Western society has lost its roots.

[JohnB]

On 6/22/2020 at 1:05 AM, Dagmar Gross said:

I don't know how old you people are, but both David and I grew up in the sixties and seventies and we have only in the last few years found out that in those days people were locked up for being gay as this was seen as a crime, which I think atrocious! As this issue hadn't really come into my life very much during my childhood and teenage years, as it was covered up so much, it was for example a shock to me that male movie stars like Rock Hudson and Richard Chamberlain were gay! I had always wished for Rock Hudson and Doris Day to marry, because I knew she was treated really badly by her husband and thought Rock Hudson gorgeous. Well, of course, when I found out Rock Hudson was gay I realized that that would probably not have worked. And Richard Chamberlain? Wow, were we in love with him when we watched him in "The Thornbirds" and another TV series where he played a British guy in Japan, "Shogun"! And much later I discovered he was gay too. Well, I wouldn't have developed the same depth of feelings for him if I'd known... Elton John, too, has told us about how he needed to hide his sexuality and I certainly never realized anything way back then! Because all three of them, for example, hid that very well.

I think that in these past couple of decades this whole gender thing has swung to the other extreme, blown totally out of proportion, and it really needs to become balanced, simply with full acceptance of and respect for every type of sexuality. Regardless of which one we were born with, we all have our problems with it, although anyone not straight I think has more of a problem than the straight people among us. I may just be seeing this from my own perspective. I can only guess, but we all need to treat everyone regardless with equal respect and love.

 

As to nationalism, I think it especially beautiful in Europe that there is such a diversion of races and cultural peculiarities. European countries are fairly small, but the bigger ones like Spain, France, Germany, Britain and Italy are really a conglomeration of lots of little areas with people living in them of quite different dialects and cultures. This makes travel within Europe hugely interesting, but you get the same regional differences in countries further east, too. The EU has really endeavoured to preserve this cultural and racial difference, as its member states have wanted it too, and I think this amazing. We all have the same basic needs and that goes for humans all over the world as well. And this is what brings us all together and travelling has helped us all so much to understand each other and should really have eliminated wars entirely. And if it weren't for the weapons and fossil fuel and mineral industries, there would now be no wars anymore and everyone would prosper. The world is not over-populated. It is the greed of the corporations and the warmongers that prevents that everyone on Earth prospers.

 

And now, these evil forces want to break all this understanding between peoples of all races and cultures up by first of all making travel very difficult if not impossible. Thankfully, at least for the time being, we have the Internet to still communicate across the globe! But who knows for how long if the Evil Ones continue to get their way... We can but hope.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said there except the bit about the EU. The EU has 30,000 corporate lobbyists. Also, when the Syriza party were elected to government in Greece on an anti-austerity message, the then vice-president of the EU Commission, Jyrki Katainen, said "We don't change our policy according to elections." I would suggest that the EU is a wolf in sheep's clothing, and all the stuff about bringing countries together in peace, harmony and "mutually beneficial co-operation" is a cover story,

[JohnB]

On 6/22/2020 at 7:19 AM, screamingeagle said:

i'm with this one,

the proof is all around us(in any country)

David Icke would probably agree with Schopenhauer there, but Icke is also of the view that national identity can be an effective bulwark against globalist forces. I guess Icke sees national identity as a means to an end rather than an end in itself, but as I pointed out in my opening post in this topic, there is a danger that the subtlety of that is lost on some people, and they just think "Yay national pride let's wave some flags and be patriotic!".